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  1. #26
    Senior Member dynodonn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by genec View Post
    ......what does happen at least once a week though is the bot that creates a new account to give us a link to some live feed soccer.
    I like those posted links, they give me a brief moment of entertaining a response..... got lemons?... make............

  2. #27
    Senior Member dynodonn's Avatar
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    I avoid our local MUPs like the plague.... as bad as our streets and motorists are, they are far less chaotic and have a greater sense of order and predictability.

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimmyBB View Post
    Hi everyone,
    I joined this forum, because I am both a biker and a pedestrian (long-distance walking etc.). I would like to mention something that seems obvious but that many bikers overlook: the timing of your warning (bell or shout) to pedestrians in the path ahead of you. I know some elderly people (slow reaction times) who have been knocked down by bicyclists, and I have also experienced some near misses and brushes with speeding bikers as well.
    If you are biking at 20 mph (not a very fast pace), you are covering about 30 feet per second. That means if you shout or ring your warning from 30 feet behind the pedestrian in front of you, s/he has one second to process what you shouted (or dinged) and react to it. If you do it 15 feet (3 bike lengths, shall we say?) from behind the pedestrian, s/he will have one half of a second to respond.
    Neither of these is really enough time, but too many bikers wait until they are actually passing before saying, "On your left" or ringing a bell. This is more likely to startle the pedestrians than give them warning, causing them to jump into your path or move erratically in front of you.
    Not the intended outcome.
    I suggest bikers start ringing their bells or shouting their warnings from AT LEAST 50 feet away, especially if they are traveling faster than 20mph. It sounds like a PITA to do that for every single pedestrian, but if you cannot be bothered, don't complain about pedestrians in "your way."
    Cheers!
    Good points-folks-especially older folks or young children-
    Have NO IDEA what that sudden yell or bell means
    Only hardened bike riders know what- that shout means-and if you scream passing left- they might just hear left-and MOVE LEFT.

    Simpler solution- never pass any pedestrians-especially oldsters or kids or dog on or off leash at 20 mph!!
    Slow waaaaaay down to 5-6 mph-under 10 FPS- and swing as wide as possible
    Bike riders-riding at speed-want a workout-having to accelerate back up-improves the workout

    So SLOW down to pass-waaaay down!
    Bike riders blowing past at speed-in a long line
    PISSES EVERYONE OFF-
    and oldsters-VOTE- and contact their representatives-complain etc
    SLOW WAAAY DOWN TO PASS
    Yelling "commands warnings" just startles folks.

  4. #29
    rugged individualist wphamilton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RaleighSport View Post
    Just for reference, I assume people who post in this subforum wait and pass safely on MUPs which is why I felt the OP isn't going to hit their "target audience" here.
    I agree and understand how one can feel insulted by that kind of advice.

    OP doesn't seem to have a seasoned appreciation for the nuances of what he's advising, from the perspective of safety. For example, alerting from two seconds back at 20 mph will have no benefit whatsoever in some of the situations he describes. You must reduce speed and then alert. In other specific situations, as you know, you're better off without warning. They don't like it, but it's safer.

    I "ding" at just about everyone, with enough time that many of them acknowledge before I pass. Those who don't acknowledge or show an awareness present a decision point for several options. That pertains regardless of how far back you attempt to alert them.

  5. #30
    Senior Member italktocats's Avatar
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    why does one need to ring a bell to pass do you slam your horn everytime you overtake on the highway too? im confused

  6. #31
    Senior Member dynodonn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wphamilton View Post
    I "ding" at just about everyone, with enough time that many of them acknowledge before I pass.
    Though using a MUP is useful for many cyclists, but having to slow and alert just about every person on the MUP in my attempt to make a pass is mind boggling, and I just cannot entertain the thought of having motorists doing the same on the road. Nothing against MUPs, they have their place for many cyclists and peds, just an insight to why I personally use the road instead of our local MUPs.

  7. #32
    Warning:Annoying to jerks RaleighSport's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dynodonn View Post
    Though using a MUP is useful for many cyclists, but having to slow and alert just about every person on the MUP in my attempt to make a pass is mind boggling, and I just cannot entertain the thought of having motorists doing the same on the road. Nothing against MUPs, they have their place for many cyclists and peds, just an insight to why I personally use the road instead of our local MUPs.
    This + Below.. Pretty much sums it up IMO.
    Quote Originally Posted by dynodonn View Post
    I avoid our local MUPs like the plague.... as bad as our streets and motorists are, they are far less chaotic and have a greater sense of order and predictability.
    One more thought.. if we rode on the streets as most pedestrians travel MUP's, I'm fairly sure cycling would have a much higher fatality rate.
    “Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.”


    ― Ralph Waldo Emerson, Emerson in His Journals

  8. #33
    rugged individualist wphamilton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dynodonn View Post
    Though using a MUP is useful for many cyclists, but having to slow and alert just about every person on the MUP in my attempt to make a pass is mind boggling, and I just cannot entertain the thought of having motorists doing the same on the road. Nothing against MUPs, they have their place for many cyclists and peds, just an insight to why I personally use the road instead of our local MUPs.
    Depends on the MUP and traffic, and traffic on the MUP. Sometimes I don't have to slow down past 20, passing at 15 isn't that onerous either, but on the weekend it's really bad and I'll only be on it briefly if at all as a shortcut to where I want to start a ride. When it's too crowded and too many neophytes I'm with you on that but on the more clear ones, no problem.

  9. #34
    Senior Member dynodonn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RaleighSport View Post
    ........if we rode on the streets as most pedestrians travel MUP's, I'm fairly sure cycling would have a much higher fatality rate.
    I've observed a number of cyclists trying to ride in similar manner, but many only do so for a short period of time, either deciding to ride closer to the rules of the road, giving up riding altogether, or not being able to ride ever again.

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by dynodonn View Post
    Though using a MUP is useful for many cyclists, but having to slow and alert just about every person on the MUP in my attempt to make a pass is mind boggling, and I just cannot entertain the thought of having motorists doing the same on the road. Nothing against MUPs, they have their place for many cyclists and peds, just an insight to why I personally use the road instead of our local MUPs.
    Since our road dead ends on a MUP, many of my rides start and/or finish on it. I alert everyone I pass with a ding on my bell thats conveniently mounted so it takes virtually no thought or effort to do. I can see where it might get old on really busy tails like Greenlake or Burke-Gilman, but for most trails its no big deal. I don't like calling out, too many folks seem to find it abrasive like I'm trying to tell them to get out of my way.

    I have a bulb horn on one bike, and a vintage E.A. Labs manual Klaxon on the other, nobody ignores them and they get through to the ear bud crowd, they even work for motorists. I think horns are great, but I get the impression that bells and even more so horns are offensive to the delicate sensibilities of many image conscience cyclists and weight weenies.

  11. #36
    Senior Member dynodonn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wphamilton View Post
    Depends on the MUP and traffic, and traffic on the MUP. Sometimes I don't have to slow down past 20, passing at 15 isn't that onerous either, but on the weekend it's really bad and I'll only be on it briefly if at all as a shortcut to where I want to start a ride. When it's too crowded and too many neophytes I'm with you on that but on the more clear ones, no problem.
    The volume of ped/cyclist traffic on our local MUPs generally varies with no rhyme or reason, and many do not have clear lines of sight due to natural vegetation, making for dicey situations even at a lower speed. Having crashed on a MUP blind curve during a weekday, at a low speed to avoid peds traveling towards me on my side of a MUP, has made me rethink on traveling any of our MUPs regardless of the time or day.

  12. #37
    Senior Member dynodonn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kickstart View Post
    I think horns are great, but I get the impression that bells and even more so horns are offensive to the delicate sensibilities of many image conscience cyclists and weight weenies.
    My not having a horn on my bike has nothing to do with being weight or image conscious, or I would not have installed a rear basket on my commuter bike. Horns have their place, but if I can avoid using one, I will. Even when driving a car, I seldom use the horn, and I generally will test it once a year to see if it is still in working order.

  13. #38
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by keyven View Post
    I don't know about the US but here in Singapore MOST pedestrians do not acknowledge or react to a bell, regardless of how its rang. Granted, my Brompton bell is far from an airhorn, but in most cases when we're not besieged by ambient traffic noise, they still can't, or won't react. They just continue walking firmly ensconced in whatever thoughts they were harboring.

    This is not something I've done once or twice and came to the conclusion - it's many dozens of times, from the elderly to the young, more often than not without any visible earphones/distractions attached.

    Maybe there's just something about the human brain that seems naturally disposed to ignore sharp, frantic bell-ringing in the background.
    Why do some cyclists believe that every pedestrian (on a recreational path/trail where walking is permitted) is required to "react" in some way to obnoxious or loudmouth cyclists? What reaction do these bell ringing shouting cyclists expect? A bow or curtsey, perhaps? Why shouldn't pedestrians on a recreational path talk to each other or on a cell phone, or listen to their music?

    Maybe speed happy cyclists should find another route, or perish the thought, slow down to a pace consistent with cycling amongst the many legitimate users of a MUP.

  14. #39
    Warning:Annoying to jerks RaleighSport's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
    Why do some cyclists believe that every pedestrian (on a recreational path/trail where walking is permitted) is required to "react" in some way to obnoxious or loudmouth cyclists? What reaction do these bell ringing shouting cyclists expect? A bow or curtsey, perhaps? Why shouldn't pedestrians on a recreational path talk to each other or on a cell phone, or listen to their music?

    Maybe speed happy cyclists should find another route, or perish the thought, slow down to a pace consistent with cycling amongst the many legitimate users of a MUP.
    That's also interesting especially if we apply the message you're implying to road use rather than MUP use, which technically speaking are supposed to be almost identical concepts.. just the type of traveling done varies. Keeping in mind that most drivers think we belong on MUP's and sidewalks, and then keeping in mind most pedestrians see us as a hindrance rather than a fellow user.. where exactly do you propose we fit in to do our actual riding? "Loud mouth" cyclists are pretty damn common in this subforum and no offense intended but I do believe you fit the bill quite nicely for the description, probably myself as well but where do we draw the line.. things like improper use of the MUP have come up often in this thread, from walking abreast all the way across the path, to the weaving earbuds users, to the racer wannabe MUP cyclist warriors, to the dog walkers extending their trip line from end to end.. I often have this particular thought when I'm riding in a bike lane and it's trash day, often I find the trash cans directly in the middle of the bike lane whether or not there is room for them adjacent to the persons drive, or at the curb proper behind the bike lane and my thought is "I wonder how drivers would react if there was a row of dumpsters in their lane" I don't think the problem relies as much with the cyclists (asshats excluded of course), as with how the culture views the cyclists.. we aren't welcome on the roads, bike lanes are pretty much a joke, pedestrians don't want us on MUP's.. so where do we go, how do we change this? And why oh why do cyclists get blamed for using a MUP when often it's the other MUP users who are creating a hazard?

    Sidenote: I can recall a MUP encounter I had early on in adult cycling, I came up behind a jazzy scooter chair user or some such other mobility device user, the path was maybe 4' wide and I'd been reading all the horror stories of MUP users, which seemed to point towards the mobility scooter crowd as being rather dangerous if you snuck up on them. Well anyways, this guy was actually attentive! He even had rear view mirrors on the sides of his handlebars.. even before he could see me, he pulled to the right, and waved me through, I ended up hopping off my bike and chatting the gentlemen up as it turns out he also finds most mobility scooter users to be jerks! He's so attentive because often others will come zipping up on him and bump him nearly off the trail! Just goes to show.. there's good people and asshats everywhere.
    Last edited by RaleighSport; 05-31-14 at 09:48 AM.
    “Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.”


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  15. #40
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RaleighSport View Post
    That's also interesting especially if we apply the message you're implying to road use rather than MUP use, which technically speaking are supposed to be almost identical concepts.. just the type of traveling done varies.
    Neither the OP nor the other posters specified that they shout, ring, toot, or honk only at improper use of the MUP like walking erratically or abreast all the way across the path. They apparently expect every pedestrian to react to their obnoxious behavior in order that they can maintain high speed on the MUP.
    Note that pedestrians and joggers listening to music on a MUP is "improper" or a "hazard" only in the eyes of obnoxious speed obsessed cyclists who believe they alone are entitled to enjoy the use of a MUP.

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
    Why do some cyclists believe that every pedestrian (on a recreational path/trail where walking is permitted) is required to "react" in some way to obnoxious or loudmouth cyclists? What reaction do these bell ringing shouting cyclists expect? A bow or curtsey, perhaps? Why shouldn't pedestrians on a recreational path talk to each other or on a cell phone, or listen to their music?

    Maybe speed happy cyclists should find another route, or perish the thought, slow down to a pace consistent with cycling amongst the many legitimate users of a MUP.
    Sometimes it doesn't matter how slow you go.

    One time on a MUT I slowed for, and didn't pass a jogger because we were approaching an intersection, just as I stopped and put my foot down, she flipped a U-turn around a bollard while looking at some sort of device and ran head on into me. Joggers with ear buds are a real hazard, they're oblivious to the world around them, and do U-turns without warning.
    From that and other experiences I've learned its best to alert folks I'm going to pass regardless of speed. Bicycles are silent and they may step into your path even if you have slowed all the way down.

    Lots of people say thank you or show appreciation for the warning, and it is a rule here in Washington, so its not simply self serving, its part of being a responsible, courteous trail user...........even for slowpokes like me.

  17. #42
    Warning:Annoying to jerks RaleighSport's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
    Neither the OP nor the other posters specified that they shout, ring, toot, or honk only at improper use of the MUP like walking erratically or abreast all the way across the path. They apparently expect every pedestrian to react to their obnoxious behavior in order that they can maintain high speed on the MUP.
    Note that pedestrians and joggers listening to music on a MUP is "improper" or a "hazard" only in the eyes of obnoxious speed obsessed cyclists who believe they alone are entitled to enjoy the use of a MUP.
    I find it very interesting you've seized on that section of my thoughts and completely disregard the parallels with road use for cycling.. even though that's exactly the part of my thought you chose to address or rather.. promote an agenda via? And FWIW, most mup's/park trails etc around here, do require cyclists to alert pedestrians from a ways back and pass safely.. it also outlines basic rules for pedestrians as well that they disregard. I refer you back to my question of where do we fit in.. if everyone else demands entitlements to the roads and MUP's, where do we ride?
    “Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.”


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  18. #43
    rugged individualist wphamilton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
    Neither the OP nor the other posters specified that they shout, ring, toot, or honk only at improper use of the MUP like walking erratically or abreast all the way across the path. They apparently expect every pedestrian to react to their obnoxious behavior in order that they can maintain high speed on the MUP.
    Note that pedestrians and joggers listening to music on a MUP is "improper" or a "hazard" only in the eyes of obnoxious speed obsessed cyclists who believe they alone are entitled to enjoy the use of a MUP.
    I honestly don't see how you reached that (incorrect) conclusion.

    The one and only reason I "ding" at pedestrians is a courtesy so that they don't inadvertently jump into my path. What they actually do is up to them, and I deal with it as necessary.

    Obnoxious - some probably think so but many people thank me as I pass so I think that opinion is of the fringe.

  19. #44
    20+mph Commuter JoeyBike's Avatar
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    My wife and I walk on several MUPs, some of them fairly narrow as well. How we handle it, we walk FACING "traffic" just as if we were walking on a state highway with no sidewalks. This way, faster trail users overtaking us don't have to do anything, say anything, or move anywhere. They just keep doing what they are doing. Then should we SEE other trail users closing in on us from the front side we simply look over our shoulder to see if anyone is coming up from behind us. If the coast is clear, we step to the right side of the trail and let the cyclists approaching from up front keep their line and lane. As soon as they pass we move back to the left side facing traffic. If there are cyclists coming up in front and behind us we just step off the trail momentarily and let everyone get past, then resume our peaceful walk. We are not counting on hearing anything. We could have music blowing our eardrums out. We LOOK OUT for other trail users, which is ridiculously easy to do on foot. An MUP is the same as any other roadway shared by foot traffic and wheeled traffic as far as I am concerned.

    And THIS^^ is how I expect all pedestrians to act on MUPs. Wish in one hand, spit in the other, and see which one fills up first.

    Some here might find this video of mine fun regarding how most people in my town use MUPs.

    Last edited by JoeyBike; 05-31-14 at 10:46 AM.
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  20. #45
    Senior Member dynodonn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeyBike View Post
    How we handle it, we walk FACING "traffic" just as if we were walking on a state highway with no sidewalks.
    ......why I crashed on a blind turn, at a very low speed on one of our MUPs....trying to avoid two peds walking "facing traffic", and one of the main reasons why I now avoid riding on our local MUPs.

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
    Note that pedestrians and joggers listening to music on a MUP is "improper" or a "hazard" only in the eyes of obnoxious speed obsessed cyclists who believe they alone are entitled to enjoy the use of a MUP.
    I'd avoid mups completely but they are unfortunately necessary for crossing the river in Portland. I often have to come to a complete stop because pedestrians are incapable of comprehending that a bike moving toward them in it's signed and designated space requires that they they move over to their designated side of the path. Often I will attempt to communicate with them that I am coming through and they will simply stare back at me uncomprehendingly.
    Road rash is a precious gift. Road rash is your friend. Bask in it, appreciate it, love it. Above all, learn from it. --Robert Hurst

  22. #47
    20+mph Commuter JoeyBike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dynodonn View Post
    ......why I crashed on a blind turn, at a very low speed on one of our MUPs....trying to avoid two peds walking "facing traffic", and one of the main reasons why I now avoid riding on our local MUPs.
    Do you think the outcome would have been any different if their backs were turned to you? At least there was a chance they could react if they were facing you. My wife and I would have simply stepped off the path and let you go by.

    If everyone at least TRIES to be courteous there would be very few problems in MUPs. Trouble is, almost everyone on those things are entitled j@ck@$$3$ with their heads in the clouds or unwilling to slow down for a moment.
    Last edited by JoeyBike; 05-31-14 at 12:42 PM.
    "For all we know his skills may be excellent, allowing him to ride like an idiot without actually being one." - FBinNY

  23. #48
    Senior Member dynodonn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeyBike View Post
    Do you think the outcome would have been any different if their backs were turned to you?

    Oh hell yeah, I figured if they were walking away from me, then the closing speed would have been closer to 4mph than 10mph.

  24. #49
    Senior Member Essex's Avatar
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    Nearly had two accidents in Central Park NY today. Nearly toasted myself when some idiot pulls his bike @ a 90 degree angle into my line. The ____t nearly takes out another roadie who is also riding my track. If at all possible I need to get back to the North Shore where I can have the road to myself.

  25. #50
    20+mph Commuter JoeyBike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dynodonn View Post
    Oh hell yeah, I figured if they were walking away from me, then the closing speed would have been closer to 4mph than 10mph.
    So you gambled on a blind curve that there would not be little kids or dog leashes spread out across the entire path? You gotta take SOME responsibility for your own safety out there.
    "For all we know his skills may be excellent, allowing him to ride like an idiot without actually being one." - FBinNY

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