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  1. #76
    I STILL miss East Hill :) Rollfast's Avatar
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    This came out of left field. Was this a suggestion to divorce the OPs wife?

    I don't get it...a little much.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Cutter View Post
    I know exactly what you're going through. I've been divorced twice. There comes a time when you know it is over... when it's time to say good bye. It isn't that you want the experience you're having to continue. Who in their right mind would want all that emotional drama in their life. The pleasure is gone. The passion you once felt (in this case... for cycling).... is no longer there. It's over. It is time to move on!

    You will love again.... oh sure it may not be the same reckless thrill that you got from cycling... but it will be a genuine love. There are countless other sports and ways to enjoy exercise. Some sports and exercises are good with the wife and/or family... and some are good for alone time as well. Try other ways of getting some exercise and having fun!

    Clean and freshly lube both you and your wife's bicycles. Then find a nice clean dry place to store them. They will wait for you... just in case you change your mind (and odds are as the years go by you will).
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  2. #77
    24-Speed Machine Chris516's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kickstart View Post
    While traffic laws and rules vary by state and country, the core principle they are all based on is that they never give us as individuals the right of way, they only define when we must give way to others.
    I only quoted this part of your post. Because that is very true.

    1. We 'supposedly' have the ROW. But motorists' want cyclists' out of their way, and off the road.

    2. Cyclists' are consistently accused of holding up traffic. When motorists' are not accused of doing the same thing.

    3. Motorists' will pass another MOTORIZED vehicle. Not complaining about it as they pass. Motorists' will pass a CYCLIST, but with heaps of consternation, or an unwillingness to pass. When there is plenty of opportunity.

  3. #78
    Senior Member Dave Cutter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rollfast View Post
    This came out of left field. Was this a suggestion to divorce the OPs wife? I don't get it...a little much.
    Most people who read the forums here are cyclist. Cyclist understand there is a deep emotional attachment to cycling. It's a rare odd person that just cycles for exercise... and doesn't get "hooked" on cycling.

    Most people understand that loving something (or someone) doesn't make it good. The OP is having a tough time walking away from cycling... even though cycling no longer seems to be a good fit for him. Marriages [/relationships] can be like that sometimes too.

    But adults often have to make pragmatic decisions. And even though cycling may not be the OPs sport.... that doesn't mean he has to live without sports. The ocean is full of fish.... or is fish suppose to mean "choices"? Is there a genuine parody with cycling (and other sports) and human relationships..... YEAH. And I think most people catch that! Sorry my post was over your head.

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris516 View Post

    1. We 'supposedly' have the ROW. But motorists' want cyclists' out of their way, and off the road.
    That's highly dependent on the individual, for most its a minor, momentary inconvenience, the majority of issues are when 2 pigheaded individuals both insist on occupying the same space. Cooperation and conflict both require more than one person.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris516 View Post
    2. Cyclists' are consistently accused of holding up traffic. When motorists' are not accused of doing the same thing.

    3. Motorists' will pass another MOTORIZED vehicle. Not complaining about it as they pass. Motorists' will pass a CYCLIST, but with heaps of consternation, or an unwillingness to pass. When there is plenty of opportunity.
    I get the idea you don't drive much and have never driven a commercial vehicle. Pedestrian, cyclist, motorist, truck, train, wildlife, livestock, monkey on a pogo stick, it doesn't matter......impatient, selfish people only think about themselves and their desires at that particular moment, anybody or anything that interfaces with them will be the target of their ire. This isn't something unique to cyclists, its human nature, but a few haven't learned self control.

  5. #80
    24-Speed Machine Chris516's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kickstart View Post
    That's highly dependent on the individual, for most its a minor, momentary inconvenience, the majority of issues are when 2 pigheaded individuals both insist on occupying the same space. Cooperation and conflict both require more than one person.
    I was pointing out things where, regardless of our right to be on the road, we are expected 'give in' every single time.
    Quote Originally Posted by kickstart View Post
    I get the idea you don't drive much and have never driven a commercial vehicle. Pedestrian, cyclist, motorist, truck, train, wildlife, livestock, monkey on a pogo stick, it doesn't matter......impatient, selfish people only think about themselves and their desires at that particular moment, anybody or anything that interfaces with them will be the target of their ire. This isn't something unique to cyclists, its human nature, but a few haven't learned self control.
    I don't drive for both medical reasons, and personal choice.

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by turbo1889 View Post
    Been sliced too many times and even if you discount the passing speed issue with the catch and release method there are still issues. I've tried to be nice before and had cases when I released instead of just going around me they pulled up beside me and then deliberately turned their right front fender into me as the thanks I got for doing so. The last one who did it that where I finally learned to stop doing that altogether it was literally a single one second time interval between catch and attempted release. Literally released her as soon as she slowed down behind me. And she still decided to do a deliberate shove the cyclist off the edge of the road and down off the embankment into the ditch below attack. NEVER AGAIN, the only catch and release I do is pulling all the way off the road often at a point where it looks like I just turned off the road as if I intended too anyway.
    Hi turbo1889,

    Thanks for your excellent posts in this thread.

    Where in Montana is this a big problem, or is it everywhere in Montana? Or is it everywhere in that area of the country, like Idaho and Wyoming too? Don't know if I want to go cycling out there on our next trip out West if this problem is common.

    Thanks, Dick

  7. #82
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    Originally Posted by dicktill: Sorry, new here: What's a "VC"?

    Quote Originally Posted by 905 View Post
    OK, thanks. Sorry to be "slow" too. But isn't all cycling on a public road (as opposed, I suppose, to cycling on a trail or MUP) by definition "VC"? Why the distinction?

    Thanks, Dick

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by dicktill View Post
    Originally Posted by dicktill: Sorry, new here: What's a "VC"?



    OK, thanks. Sorry to be "slow" too. But isn't all cycling on a public road (as opposed, I suppose, to cycling on a trail or MUP) by definition "VC"? Why the distinction?
    There really isn't a set definition, to many it simply means obeying traffic laws when riding in the travel lane of a public road. Some extremists define it as riding a bicycle exactly as one would a motor vehicle without any additional privileges or restrictions.

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by kickstart View Post
    There really isn't a set definition, to many it simply means obeying traffic laws when riding in the travel lane of a public road. Some extremists define it as riding a bicycle exactly as one would a motor vehicle without any additional privileges or restrictions.
    Vehicular cycling is cycling in accordance with the rules of the road for drivers of vehicles. If all the other drivers are required to obey any rule, then the vehicular cyclist obeys that rule. It is not cycling according to the rules of the road for drivers of motor vehicles. Motorists have restrictions that do not apply to other drivers.

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris516 View Post

    2. Cyclists' are consistently accused of holding up traffic. When motorists' are not accused of doing the same thing.

    3. Motorists' will pass another MOTORIZED vehicle. Not complaining about it as they pass. Motorists' will pass a CYCLIST, but with heaps of consternation, or an unwillingness to pass. When there is plenty of opportunity.
    Quote Originally Posted by kickstart View Post
    I get the idea you don't drive much and have never driven a commercial vehicle. Pedestrian, cyclist, motorist, truck, train, wildlife, livestock, monkey on a pogo stick, it doesn't matter......impatient, selfish people only think about themselves and their desires at that particular moment, anybody or anything that interfaces with them will be the target of their ire. This isn't something unique to cyclists, its human nature, but a few haven't learned self control.
    I have driven quite a bit and have well over a million miles as a commercial driver. My impression of what's going on is consistent with Chris516. In fact, the chatter on some of the company radios (back in the day) pretty well confirmed the special ire that many motorists have for any nonmotorized road user. It's irrational, but to deny it's there is to live in an alternate reality.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Forester View Post
    Vehicular cycling is cycling in accordance with the rules of the road for drivers of vehicles. If all the other drivers are required to obey any rule, then the vehicular cyclist obeys that rule. It is not cycling according to the rules of the road for drivers of motor vehicles. Motorists have restrictions that do not apply to other drivers.
    Different types of vehicles have different privileges and restrictions, but all share the same basic rules of the road. So how does VC differ from cyclists obeying the basic rules of the road, and in accordance with the privileges and restrictions applicable to bicycles?

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    Quote Originally Posted by kickstart View Post
    Different types of vehicles have different privileges and restrictions, but all share the same basic rules of the road. So how does VC differ from cyclists obeying the basic rules of the road, and in accordance with the privileges and restrictions applicable to bicycles?
    The rules of the road for drivers of vehicles apply whenever vehicles are operated on roadways; they do not apply for the operation of vehicles off the roadway, for example when motor vehicles are driven across fields (with the owner's permission), or when bicycles are driven on sidewalks, where this is allowed. This discussion concerns only the operation of bicycles on roadways.

    You talk of special privileges. So far as I know, the rules of the road for drivers of vehicles grant no privileges to drivers of bicycles that are not granted to other drivers of vehicles. The basic privilege is that of operating in accordance with the rules of the road for drivers of vehicles.

    The restrictions with which we are concerned restrict cyclists' right to operate on roadways open to other drivers of vehicles. The restrictions limit cyclists to the right-hand edge of the roadway or to a bike lane or prohibit them from using the roadway where there is an adjacent path. These restrictions were originally created by motordom and enacted by motordom (about 1940) to make motoring more convenient, without regard for the safety or convenience of cyclists. When the operation of these restrictions was finally examined, in 1974, they were found to endanger cyclists. But instead of repealing the restrictions, motordom demanded that they be retained, but with exceptions saying that cyclists didn't have to obey the restriction under some conditions, at some times, maybe. As a result, the public and the police know full well that cyclists are not allowed to obey the rules of the road for drivers of vehicles, while remaining ignorant of the exceptions.

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Forester View Post
    The rules of the road for drivers of vehicles apply whenever vehicles are operated on roadways; they do not apply for the operation of vehicles off the roadway, for example when motor vehicles are driven across fields (with the owner's permission), or when bicycles are driven on sidewalks, where this is allowed. This discussion concerns only the operation of bicycles on roadways.

    You talk of special privileges. So far as I know, the rules of the road for drivers of vehicles grant no privileges to drivers of bicycles that are not granted to other drivers of vehicles. The basic privilege is that of operating in accordance with the rules of the road for drivers of vehicles.

    The restrictions with which we are concerned restrict cyclists' right to operate on roadways open to other drivers of vehicles. The restrictions limit cyclists to the right-hand edge of the roadway or to a bike lane or prohibit them from using the roadway where there is an adjacent path. These restrictions were originally created by motordom and enacted by motordom (about 1940) to make motoring more convenient, without regard for the safety or convenience of cyclists. When the operation of these restrictions was finally examined, in 1974, they were found to endanger cyclists. But instead of repealing the restrictions, motordom demanded that they be retained, but with exceptions saying that cyclists didn't have to obey the restriction under some conditions, at some times, maybe. As a result, the public and the police know full well that cyclists are not allowed to obey the rules of the road for drivers of vehicles, while remaining ignorant of the exceptions.
    Here in Washington, unlike other vehicles, Cyclists are allowed to ride on the shoulder, sidewalks, bike lanes, filter at stops, split lanes, ride two abreast, and when traveling at speeds less than the flow of traffic may move right at their discretion and continue traveling rather than being prohibited to impede traffic like a motor vehicle, pull off the road when there is a delay of 5 or more vehicles, or display an orange triangle like SMVs do. We are not required to use side paths, and are only prohibited to use some freeways, tunnels, and bridges in a few urban areas.

    How does the theory of"VC" effect these privlages and restrictions?

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    Quote Originally Posted by kickstart View Post
    Here in Washington, unlike other vehicles, Cyclists are allowed to ride on the shoulder, sidewalks, bike lanes, filter at stops, split lanes, ride two abreast, and when traveling at speeds less than the flow of traffic may move right at their discretion and continue traveling rather than being prohibited to impede traffic like a motor vehicle, pull off the road when there is a delay of 5 or more vehicles, or display an orange triangle like SMVs do. We are not required to use side paths, and are only prohibited to use some freeways, tunnels, and bridges in a few urban areas.

    How does the theory of"VC" effect these privlages and restrictions?
    The scope of these discussions is not limited to Washington; they apply to American traffic laws generally, unless there are specific exceptions.

    Your response shows that you don't understand my previous post. VC is cycling in accordance with the rules of the road for drivers of vehicles. Therefore, it applies only when cycling on the roadway, but that does not limit cyclists to operating only on the roadway. So VC has no relevance to cycling on the sidewalk. You say that being allowed to use bike lanes is a privilege. That's not the view of the general public, who believe that cyclists should be required to use them. Filtering forward, splitting lanes, riding two abreast (why only two?) are not legal privileges but are simply the consequence of a bicycle's narrow width. You argue that it is a special privilege that cyclists are allowed to travel at their normal speeds. How silly can you be? That's allowed for all drivers of vehicles. You refer to the 5-vehicle following rule, but your sentence structure doesn't say anything about it. One has to assume, from the paragraph, that you consider it a privilege that cyclists don't have to obey that rule. If that legal exception is specifically made, then I am surprised, for I consider that rule one of the rules of the road for drivers of vehicles and therefore a rule that cyclists ought to obey. No state that I know of requires cyclists to display the orange triangle; what's your point about that?

    You claim that the restrictions on cyclist travel apply only to "some freeways, tunnels, and bridges." You are utterly ignoring the far greater restriction, let us just say 1,000 times greater, that you are prohibited from using most of the width of most roadways and are prohibited from occupying a lane in the normal manner for drivers of vehicles.

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Forester View Post
    The scope of these discussions is not limited to Washington; they apply to American traffic laws generally, unless there are specific exceptions.

    Your response shows that you don't understand my previous post. VC is cycling in accordance with the rules of the road for drivers of vehicles. Therefore, it applies only when cycling on the roadway, but that does not limit cyclists to operating only on the roadway. So VC has no relevance to cycling on the sidewalk. You say that being allowed to use bike lanes is a privilege. That's not the view of the general public, who believe that cyclists should be required to use them. Filtering forward, splitting lanes, riding two abreast (why only two?) are not legal privileges but are simply the consequence of a bicycle's narrow width. You argue that it is a special privilege that cyclists are allowed to travel at their normal speeds. How silly can you be? That's allowed for all drivers of vehicles. You refer to the 5-vehicle following rule, but your sentence structure doesn't say anything about it. One has to assume, from the paragraph, that you consider it a privilege that cyclists don't have to obey that rule. If that legal exception is specifically made, then I am surprised, for I consider that rule one of the rules of the road for drivers of vehicles and therefore a rule that cyclists ought to obey. No state that I know of requires cyclists to display the orange triangle; what's your point about that?

    You claim that the restrictions on cyclist travel apply only to "some freeways, tunnels, and bridges." You are utterly ignoring the far greater restriction, let us just say 1,000 times greater, that you are prohibited from using most of the width of most roadways and are prohibited from occupying a lane in the normal manner for drivers of vehicles.
    You're correct, I don't understand your post, and I'm not concerned with those who are ignorant of the law or choose to misuse it.
    My question is how does the theory of "VC" differ from the rules and laws of Washington state as they exist today, how does it supposedly improve my riding experience, and how motorists will behave around me?

  16. #91
    20+mph Commuter JoeyBike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Forester View Post
    ...you don't understand my previous post...
    Quote Originally Posted by kickstart View Post
    You're correct, I don't understand your post, and I'm not concerned...
    images.jpg
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    Quote Originally Posted by kickstart View Post
    You're correct, I don't understand your post, and I'm not concerned with those who are ignorant of the law or choose to misuse it.
    My question is how does the theory of "VC" differ from the rules and laws of Washington state as they exist today, how does it supposedly improve my riding experience, and how motorists will behave around me?
    Many people have written over the years that the less one rides like the typical American bicycle rider and the more that one rides in the manner of a driver the easier your traffic experience becomes.

  18. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Forester View Post
    Vehicular cycling is cycling in accordance with the rules of the road for drivers of vehicles.
    Except that many, if not, most of these rules were created for and by motorists and are largely irrelevant to safe and efficient cycling.
    Road rash is a precious gift. Road rash is your friend. Bask in it, appreciate it, love it. Above all, learn from it. --Robert Hurst

  19. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
    Except that many, if not, most of these rules were created for and by motorists and are largely irrelevant to safe and efficient cycling.

    I think that underlying most of these rules there is a principle of the least disruption of the orderly flow of traffic. I don't mean speed, but rather how smoothly and easily vehicles move within the flow.

    Vehicular cycling posits that adhering to the traffic rules minimizes disruptions, hence is the safest and most efficient practice. In that sense it doesn't really matter how or for what purpose the rules were created, because the key objective involves interacting within the traffic as it exists now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Cutter View Post
    Most people who read the forums here are cyclist. Cyclist understand there is a deep emotional attachment to cycling. It's a rare odd person that just cycles for exercise... and doesn't get "hooked" on cycling.
    Most people I know aren't 'cyclists', they simply use their bicycle for transportation. They're not hooked on it, anymore than they're hooked on a fork they use to eat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CrankyOne View Post
    Most people I know aren't 'cyclists', they simply use their bicycle for transportation. They're not hooked on it, anymore than they're hooked on a fork they use to eat.

    THAT..... is a huge shame.
    If you can not find the pleasure, joy, passion that is cycling.... you must be missing so much else as well. I hope you can at least find peace.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dicktill View Post
    OK, thanks. Sorry to be "slow" too. But isn't all cycling on a public road (as opposed, I suppose, to cycling on a trail or MUP) by definition "VC"? Why the distinction?
    Here's a bit of discussion that might help:

    Vehicular Cycling: If It Worked, It Wouldn't Work | streets.mn

    There is also a difference between American Vehicular Cycling and that practiced elsewhere. American vehicular cycling is very type-A aggressive and self-centered—"I have a right to the road and I'm going to take it." However in Europe it is much more cooperative. Bicycle riders in Europe aren't in to 'taking the lane', they're more considerate of those driving cars and car drivers are likewise more considerate of bicycle riders.

    That said, people driving cars in the U.S., and people in general, are much less considerate of others as Europeans are. This is part of the reason we are about three times as likely to be killed on the road (in a car, riding a bicycle, or walking) as someone in Europe. It is also why Dutch style segregated bicycle facilities are more important here than in Europe.
    Last edited by CrankyOne; 06-18-14 at 07:50 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CrankyOne View Post
    Here's a bit of discussion that might help:

    Vehicular Cycling: If It Worked, It Wouldn't Work | streets.mn

    There is also a difference between American Vehicular Cycling and that practiced elsewhere. American vehicular cycling is very type-A aggressive and self-centered—"I have a right to the road and I'm going to take it." However in Europe it is much more cooperative. Bicycle riders in Europe aren't in to 'taking the lane', they're more considerate of those driving cars and car drivers are likewise more considerate of bicycle riders.

    That said, people driving cars in the U.S., and people in general, are much less considerate of others as Europeans are. This is part of the reason we are about three times as likely to be killed on the road (in a car, riding a bicycle, or walking) as someone in Europe. It is also why Dutch style segregated bicycle facilities are more important here than in Europe.
    Interestingly I tried to make this same argument with John Forester some time back... it is well presented in your link and worth the read. Vehicular cycling only works well when we all (cars and bikes) move at human speeds... otherwise cyclists tend to be an impediment to smooth, high speed, motoring... sort of like rocks in a fast river.

    Here is a key statement from that link:

    What will happen when cycling in the U.S. increases from its current 1% of trips to 5% or 10%? Or 25%? When many more people begin bicycling to local stores, restaurants, and schools? Imagine all of these cyclists, three to ten times as many as today, most traveling about 12 mph, on the roads mixed with and sometimes blocking motor traffic
    Everyone should take a look at that link:

    Vehicular Cycling: If It Worked, It Wouldn?t Work | streets.mn

  24. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrankyOne View Post
    That said, people driving cars in the U.S., and people in general, are much less considerate of others as Europeans are.
    Here in the US, there's no automatic fault, unless proven otherwise, of a collision going to the larger, heavier vehicle as in a number of European countries..... it's interesting to watch videos of how European motorist interact with cyclists, almost like a number of motorists are terrified of get anywhere close to a cyclist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CrankyOne View Post

    That said, people driving cars in the U.S., and people in general, are much less considerate of others as Europeans are.
    I lived in Germany for 4 years and France for a year, and found it to be the exact opposite, but they are better drivers because the licensing, vehicle condition, and financial commitment standards are much higher.

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