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-   -   Just can't win out on the road (http://www.bikeforums.net/advocacy-safety/953215-just-cant-win-out-road.html)

FBinNY 06-12-14 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by enigmaT120 (Post 16845976)

Is that what you mean by a European pass? Because I'd never read that term before.

Yes, that's what I mean. You haven't heard it before because I made it up. People do the same thing here, but it seems to be SOP in Europe where they've been driving under powered cars on roads that seem to follow ancient goat tracks for decades. So they understand the need for cooperation when miscalculated passes happen. Without that kind of cooperation a Fiat could never get around a truck in the mountains.

Here in the USA we tend to be more focused on rights and get angered at those we think are stepping on our toes. I passed (when driving) cars on two lane roads, only to have them speed up to keep form being in front of them.

When riding I set my lane position according to conditions. If riding where passing is risky, I'll move left enough that a driver knows he has to overlap the centerline to pass, but I don't force him all the way across. If/when he starts passing, I'll move right and (if necessary) slow down so he can move back into the lane as soon as possible.

IME, I've had less problem passes when climbing because my speed is low, and the driver can get around me quickly. Tho opposite is true on descents or any time I'm riding faster, because he's much more likely to misjudge my speed and the distance he'll need to pass.

Notso_fastLane 06-12-14 03:25 PM

...and start riding with a camera (rear facing is usually more useful for recording 'incidents').

Stay safe.

B. Carfree 06-12-14 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by loky1179 (Post 16843433)
So you think the unsafe driver would not have passed if the OP had been taking the lane all along? I don't buy that. Drivers are either going to cross the double yellow line, or they aren't. If they are, your lane position matters little to them; they are going to try to go around you.

It sounds to me like the OP had good situational awareness, and did what he had to do to keep himself alive.

Motorists are a group with many varieties. Sure, some of them are going to pass no matter what they see or don't see ahead. However, there certainly exists a subset that will properly interpret the meaning of a situation in which a cyclist is mid-lane and sight lines are restricted. All those derrière chapeaux who angrily honk their horns behind cyclists on narrow, winding two lane roads are likely to be motorists who would have tried to pass if the cyclists were gutter-hugging. Some cyclists are perfectly comfortable being passed in a ten foot travel lane by an eight foot wide motor vehicle and hugging the gutter works fine for them, until the vehicle is a ten foot wide truck.

Being mid-lane both helps prevent some (many? most?) motorists from passing and gives a cyclist lots of room to the right to bail. Even when an ignorant motorist creates an unwelcome threesome, one is likely to have more space to maneuver by starting from the mid-lane positioning since many motorists drive towards the center of their perceived space. If they are threading the needle between the oncoming motorist and a cyclist, then they will be further left if the cyclist is further left. Also, if one is forced to completely ride off the road, it is easier to do this from a more acute angle than it is from the pavement's edge.

turbo1889 06-12-14 07:50 PM

Either the road is wide enough for two automobiles going opposite directions and a cyclist to share or it ain't. If it ain't wide enough, then hugging the white line until a threesome is about to develop and then suddenly moving left to try to prevent it at the last few moments is among the worst idea of them all. Although I personally always take the lane if the road is too narrow for a threesome even continuing to hug the white line and pray for the best is a better option then trying to swerve left to prevent the threesome at the last moment. Taking the lane from the get to on a road too narrow for a threesome is a passive aggressive move. Swerving left at the last moment in a (usually unsuccessful) attempt to prevent a developing threesome is just straight out full on aggressive and it don't go over as well as passive aggressive and is more likely to result in only escalating the situation.

Don't get me wrong, I do fully understand the "slowed way down while climbing a grade" thing and the desire to be more accommodating of overtaking traffic while doing so. I myself when slowed down when climbing a hill am much more willing to stay to the extreme right with minimal buffer room between me and passing traffic in such a situation but if I decide to do that I stay to the extreme right and don't do any moving back out to the left to prevent any threesomes.

When approaching a hill that is going to slow me down on a road that under most circumstances I would normally consider narrow enough to always take the lane on I have a decision to make: "Is this road so incredibly narrow that I can't make an exception for when I hit this hill and become a really slow really big annoyance for people behind me if I continue to take the lane?" If the answer is "Yes" then I continue to take the lane. If it is "No" then I move the heck way over to the right riding as far right as I possibly can often off the edge of the pavement and on the gravel area between the pavement and the grass and I stay there until I've topped the hill and then wait for a break to respectfully merge back into the main lane.

Make a choice: "Get IN" or "Get OUT" and obviously as road conditions change you can change your decision between those two but when you do make a change especially when "getting back IN" then wait for a break in traffic and stick your left arm out to signal your intentions and then pump up and get up to speed.

Don't just start moving left trying to force a confrontation, even if that is not how your thinking when you do it that is how it looks to the overtaking motorists who is already setting up for their pass and almost universally they respond with their own aggression to your (in their view) confrontational move and it will harden their resolve to continue. Granted cager head motorists (not all motorists are) aren't going to like it if your anywhere on the road and especially if your taking the lane from the get go when they first see you but at least it isn't a direct deliberate confrontational aggressive move like if you suddenly move left trying to block them at the last moment. If they would be mad at just seeing you taking the lane they are going to be even madder still if you pull left at the last moment trying to cut them off from passing.


Edit Addition: Oh, yah, I speak from a position of some (but most certainly not complete) experience. I have been injured by automobile drivers on the roads more then once. Most of which were from my younger dumber years where I tried to walk the fence between being in and out of traffic. Now I'm either all the way in or all the way out of the main flow of traffic and do not try to walk the fence in-between where most (but not all) of the incidents that resulted in injury to myself or damage to my bike or near misses took place.

dynodonn 06-12-14 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Notso_fastLane (Post 16846168)
...and start riding with a camera (rear facing is usually more useful for recording 'incidents').

Stay safe.

Check........... I have been riding with a rear facing camera for some years now, it didn't take but a few weeks in riding with it to log my first close pass and being able to make a detailed report to law enforcement. Also, in reviewing my rear cam videos, I realized that I was riding too far to the right, and letting motorists getting away with in making "squeeze plays".

TinkerinWstuff 06-12-14 09:49 PM

I thought motorcycling was dangerous until I started commuting on bicycle.

BigD75 06-12-14 09:53 PM

Yea, I've noticed dangerous conditions also, people in cars sometimes honk or give you less than your 3 feet of space, sad, all we wanna do is ride.

dynodonn 06-12-14 09:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TinkerinWstuff (Post 16846917)
I thought motorcycling was dangerous until I started commuting on bicycle.

Depends on the locale, at lot of winding roads in my area. I gave up motorcycling for bicycling........motorcycles are just as exposed but traveling at a higher rate of speed.

TinkerinWstuff 06-12-14 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dynodonn (Post 16846933)
Depends on the locale, at lot of winding roads in my area. I gave up motorcycling for bicycling........motorcycles are just as exposed but traveling at a higher rate of speed.

I'm never worried about the texting driver overtaking me on my motorcycle and not giving me enough room while they pass - because I don't get passed when I'm on my motorcycle. It's much easier to move into defendable positions on my motorcycle. The biggest fear is the left hand turner who didn't see me while I am admittedly moving much faster than I am on a bicycle. I am in fear of other motorists far more often on bicycle than I am when motorcycling.

BigD75 06-12-14 10:07 PM

True, I wonder if cars respect more the motorcycles or the bicycles, I hear of more motorcycle accidents. Either way I have the up most respect for both as I've been bicycling for about a year to a year and a half.

dynodonn 06-12-14 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TinkerinWstuff (Post 16846953)
I'm never worried about the texting driver overtaking me on my motorcycle and not giving me enough room while they pass - because I don't get passed when I'm on my motorcycle. It's much easier to move into defendable positions on my motorcycle. The biggest fear is the left hand turner who didn't see me while I am admittedly moving much faster than I am on a bicycle. I am in fear of other motorists far more often on bicycle than I am when motorcycling.

Motorists pulling out in front of me was more of a concern to me when riding a motorcycle than a bicycle, as well as debris on the roadway, road rash isn't usually as bad on a bicycle as it is on a motorcycle. One has to trade one action for another, I've taken measures to curtail many of the close passes, and motorists pulling out in front of me is now easier to deal with.

TinkerinWstuff 06-12-14 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dynodonn (Post 16846968)
Motorists pulling out in front of me was more of a concern to me when riding a motorcycle than a bicycle, as well as debris on the roadway, road rash isn't usually as bad on a bicycle as it is on a motorcycle. One has to trade one action for another, I've taken measures to curtail many of the close passes, and motorists pulling out in front of me is now easier to deal with.

I'm able to wear a lot more protective gear on motorcycle too. Road rash is a bigger concern for me on bicycle.

kickstart 06-12-14 11:00 PM

I drive trucks for a living, and all my personal transportation is by bike or motorcycle, I don't drive a car.
I've never had a serious incident on a bike, but I have been hit twice on a motorcycle, yet I still feel much safer riding a bike or motorcycle than driving a car, to me cars are a death trap, I can't see, hear, or feel my environment, in a car I'm boxed in with nowhere to go in heavy traffic, and even the best cars are clumsy and awkward to maneuver in an emergency.

Cars are the work of the devil, getting on a bike or motorcycle after being in a car is a real relief.

Semi truck, bicycle, or motorcycle, I always try to be proactive rather than reactive, always take into consideration how my actions will effect others, and try to find a reasonable equilibrium with my environment rather than try to force the environment to adapt to me.

dynodonn 06-12-14 11:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigD75 (Post 16846954)
True, I wonder if cars respect more the motorcycles or the bicycles, I hear of more motorcycle accidents. Either way I have the up most respect for both as I've been bicycling for about a year to a year and a half.

Depends on the situation and locale, at times, motorcyclists can power themselves out of a collision, but yet cyclists cannot really power themselves into one.

B. Carfree 06-12-14 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dynodonn (Post 16847014)
Depends on the situation and locale, at times, motorcyclists can power themselves out of a collision, but yet cyclists cannot really power themselves into one.

Don't discount the power of gravity.:D

Astrozombie 06-12-14 11:46 PM

So today on a 20mi. ride this Mustang overtakes me on a 2 lane hauling *** .........and then he pulls in to the shopping center at the corner :rolleyes:

On a bend a car is coming into my lane.....it was a police car :p

Just another day another ride, get a mirror! Get some Hi-Viz and some lights, tailor your routes, pick up "the art of cycling" and wear a RoadID.

If not get a 250cc :thumb:

Chris516 06-13-14 01:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RamahX (Post 16843267)
Maybe I'm missing something too but for the life of me I'm trying to figure out your reasoning of taking the whole lane in the first place like you did. I always stay right. It's not a who's right, this is like the irrevocable law the sea - the rule of gross tonnage.

yes, There is tonnage. But like the OP, I 'take the lane'. When I rode, practically in the gutter, until several years ago. I paid for it each time, by getting hit. I have never been majorly knocked off my bike by a driver who did it intentionally. Also, In reference to the OP's lane position. I live in a town that is border by two two-lane blacktops, along with two connecting two-lane blacktops. That go to six-lane major arterial roads.

Yesterday, I had just left the town post office getting on one of the two-lane roads' that border the town. A pick-up truck with jacked up suspension was behind me gunning their engine. But, When the driver tried to pass me as I was approaching a small hill, I moved out to the double-yellow line. Because I was not going to allow myself to become collateral damage. On account of their stupidity.

dynodonn 06-13-14 07:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by B. Carfree (Post 16847046)
Don't discount the power of gravity.:D

That thought hadn't escaped me, but what I haven't forgotten is that motorcycles also weigh up to several hundred pounds more than a bicycle.......

TinkerinWstuff 06-13-14 10:44 AM

I guess my point is, most people trying to kill me while I'm on my motorcycle are in front of me or along side me. I feel there are a lot more opportunities to use defensive driving techniques to protect myself and hope to have a fighting chance. Whereas on my bicycle, I'm constantly being overtaken from the rear where I have little ability to see or react to texting burritos eater.

to each his own and we all have different comfort levels in different activities. I see where the OP is coming from whether he was right in that particular situation or not.

Chris516 06-13-14 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TinkerinWstuff (Post 16846917)
I thought motorcycling was dangerous until I started commuting on bicycle.

Commuting by bicycle is only as dangerous, as ones' level of skill at riding a bike, and where you choose to ride a bike.

TinkerinWstuff 06-13-14 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris516 (Post 16848174)
Commuting by bicycle is only as dangerous, as ones' level of skill at riding a bike, and where you choose to ride a bike.

Can make
the exact same statement about motorcycling. So all things being equal, I stand by my statement.

genec 06-13-14 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kickstart (Post 16847012)
I drive trucks for a living, and all my personal transportation is by bike or motorcycle, I don't drive a car.
I've never had a serious incident on a bike, but I have been hit twice on a motorcycle, yet I still feel much safer riding a bike or motorcycle than driving a car, to me cars are a death trap, I can't see, hear, or feel my environment, in a car I'm boxed in with nowhere to go in heavy traffic, and even the best cars are clumsy and awkward to maneuver in an emergency.

Cars are the work of the devil, getting on a bike or motorcycle after being in a car is a real relief.

Semi truck, bicycle, or motorcycle, I always try to be proactive rather than reactive, always take into consideration how my actions will effect others, and try to find a reasonable equilibrium with my environment rather than try to force the environment to adapt to me.

Nicely stated... no doubt as a professional you have noticed that those who are less likely to "find a reasonable equilibrium with the environment" tend to be selfish motorists that are only seeking to further their personal gain at the potential expense of others. They squeeze themselves into tight spots, make fast sweeping turns, fail to signal or merge, text and chat while motoring and generally act as if the road is theirs to exploit.

genec 06-13-14 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris516 (Post 16848174)
Commuting by bicycle is only as dangerous, as ones' level of skill at riding a bike, and where you choose to ride a bike.

You cannot use skill to get out of a situation you cannot see developing... most folks hurt in cycling will tell you... "I didn't even see the car."

You cannot look front and back and to the side at the same time, so there are always "situations developing." (I know about mirrors, but they are "narrow windows.")

Also even as your skills sharpen with experience, your reaction time does not improve with age... at some point in the future those lines cross... and you realize you are not quite as bulletproof as you may think.

Of course you did have the caveat of "where" in your statement... so indeed one can likely be "in less danger" when only surrounded by open space or slow moving vehicles...

FBinNY 06-13-14 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by genec (Post 16848234)
,,, no doubt as a professional you have noticed that those who are less likely to "find a reasonable equilibrium with the environment" tend to be selfish motorists .....

I agree with the selfish (in a broad context), but why single out motorists? The I have RIGHTS to the road mentality runs the full spectrum from bicyclists through semi drivers, and everyone in between. The take the lane bicyclists who have no concern for the traffic backed up behind them are as guilty as the motorists who can't wait 5 seconds for a safe passing opportunity.

Sharing the road, is just that -- SHARING. It means adjusting and adapting to and accommodating other users with the understanding that all road users wish to reach their destinations safely and efficiently. And predicting the response of some here, you don't have to wait for the other guys to go first on this score.

Chris516 06-13-14 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by genec (Post 16848254)
You cannot use skill to get out of a situation you cannot see developing... most folks hurt in cycling will tell you... "I didn't even see the car."

You cannot look front and back and to the side at the same time, so there are always "situations developing." (I know about mirrors, but they are "narrow windows.")

Also even as your skills sharpen with experience, your reaction time does not improve with age... at some point in the future those lines cross... and you realize you are not quite as bulletproof as you may think.

Of course you did have the caveat of "where" in your statement... so indeed one can likely be "in less danger" when only surrounded by open space or slow moving vehicles...

No, I can't look behind me the whole time. That is why I don't wear earphones like some cyclists' do(not implying you are one of them). l will quickly look behind me, before changing lanes.

The only time, I have ever 'encountered' a situation I didn't see developing. Was when I was on a six-lane divided arterial in the merge lane waiting to get into the regular lane as I approached the end of the merge lane. I heard the vehicle behind me. The driver apparently didn't know that portion of the road very well. Because, While they passed me in the next lane which was good. When they got back into my lane after passing me, they suddenly noticed the lane was about to end. They corrected so quickly in front of me, that they spun out. Hitting several cars in the process. I stayed until everything was cleared. Since I knew the police would want to here my perspective. That driver was cited for reckless driving.


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