Advertise on Bikeforums.net



User Tag List

Results 1 to 23 of 23
  1. #1
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Eugene, Oregon
    Posts
    4,993
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Test Time: or, Where, What Day of Week and What Time of Day is this?

    I found this photo and it reminded me of a game on Google. In that game, you are shown a picture and you are supposed to guess where in the world the photo was taken (by the Google Street View car). So, look at the photo and tell me where it is from, what time of day it was taken and what day of week it was (weekday or weekend is good enough).

    As a bonus question, take a guess at the modal share of cycling in this locale.



  2. #2
    24-Speed Machine Chris516's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Wash. Grove, MD
    My Bikes
    2003 Specialized Allez 24-Speed Road Bike
    Posts
    5,153
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    No idea

  3. #3
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    New Rochelle, NY
    My Bikes
    too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter
    Posts
    22,429
    Mentioned
    66 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Anytown, USA on either side of High Noon, and most obviously weekday.
    FB
    Chain-L site

    An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.

    “Never argue with an idiot. He will only bring you down to his level and beat you with experience.”, George Carlin

    “One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN

    WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.

  4. #4
    genec genec's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    san diego
    My Bikes
    custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
    Posts
    23,045
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Well technically it has to be a Sat, Sun or Holiday... otherwise all those cars are parked illegally. And due to the length of the shadow, I would say it is just before or just after noon.

    And it has to be in a city with a really poor modal share as the bike lanes only work part of the time during the week and those have got to be the smallest bike lane signs I have ever seen... meaning the city chose to spend as little as possible to inform the public of the "part-time" existence of a bike lane.

  5. #5
    Cycle Year Round CB HI's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Honolulu, HI
    Posts
    11,420
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    It represents many US cities, but this one is summertime around noon on a weekday in Eugene, Oregon. Modal share 0.001% due to the great bike lane.
    Land of the Free, Because of the Brave.

  6. #6
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Eugene, Oregon
    Posts
    4,993
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
    Anytown, USA on either side of High Noon, and most obviously weekday.
    So, you don't think I would double-cross you by posting a picture of motorists behaving lawfully, eh? Well, you are correct. This is indeed a weekday just a bit before noon. Every one of the cars you see, on both sides of the street, are parked unlawfully.

    Not only are the cars parked unlawfully, the sign is unlawful. In the state in question, a bike lane is a bike lane and cannot be put under temporal constraints. Bike lanes do not permit parking, by state law. Thus not only are these motorists breaking the law, the city traffic engineer is also breaking the law.

    Adjacent to this abomination is a church. It has its own parking lot and a much larger city-owned lot as well as a high school parking lot lie one block away. In spite of this abundance of parking, this city sees fit to break the law in order to accommodate motorists.

  7. #7
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Eugene, Oregon
    Posts
    4,993
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by CB HI View Post
    It represents many US cities, but this one is summertime around noon on a weekday in Eugene, Oregon. Modal share 0.001% due to the great bike lane.
    Oh come now. We do a bit better than that, both in modal share and in approximating adherence to state law, here in Eugene. The picture's not from Eugene, but those silly "buffers" make it look very much like the garbage that has been put down here of late. Our traffic engineers and planners are even using those buffers to push the bike lanes further into the door zone. I think they heard that buffered bike lanes are all the rage, so they decided to make some, but they don't know what the impact of their work is because none of them ride, or at least they ride very little.

  8. #8
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    New Rochelle, NY
    My Bikes
    too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter
    Posts
    22,429
    Mentioned
    66 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by B. Carfree View Post
    So, you don't think I would double-cross you by posting a picture of motorists behaving lawfully, eh? .....
    I have a decent nose for irony, and figured the question set up the answer.

    Quote Originally Posted by B. Carfree View Post
    Not only are the cars parked unlawfully, the sign is unlawful. In the state in question, a bike lane is a bike lane and cannot be put under temporal constraints. Bike lanes do not permit parking, by state law. Thus not only are these motorists breaking the law, the city traffic engineer is also breaking the law.
    I was going to ask what the point of a weekday only bike lane, such as this being a rush hour route, but figured I'd pass. I don't know where it is, but I think the state may have wrong on the issue. Unless there's a mandate for bike routes and infrastructure, cities should be free to do what works for them.

    Forgetting the enforcement issue, I can see the logic of a bicycle clearway (no parking during rush hour) similar to the clearways for motor traffic in the UK, and here in NYC.

    I am kind of surprised at the number of illegally parked cars. Are parking violation fines super low?, or is there no enforcement, or maybe the locals know that the enforcement car comes by like clockwork at 11AM then never swings back later?
    FB
    Chain-L site

    An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.

    “Never argue with an idiot. He will only bring you down to his level and beat you with experience.”, George Carlin

    “One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN

    WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.

  9. #9
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Eugene, Oregon
    Posts
    4,993
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by genec View Post
    Well technically it has to be a Sat, Sun or Holiday... otherwise all those cars are parked illegally. And due to the length of the shadow, I would say it is just before or just after noon.

    And it has to be in a city with a really poor modal share as the bike lanes only work part of the time during the week and those have got to be the smallest bike lane signs I have ever seen... meaning the city chose to spend as little as possible to inform the public of the "part-time" existence of a bike lane.
    Poor modal share is relative, don't you think. In decades past, this was a legal, full-time bike lane and the modal share of this city was indeed much higher than it is today, so in that respect you are correct. However, it's current bike modal share is higher than where you live.

    Interestingly enough, this is a street that connects a large bike path network that serves about 15% of this city to the downtown core and, on weekends, the extremely popular farmer's market.

  10. #10
    Cycle Year Round CB HI's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Honolulu, HI
    Posts
    11,420
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by B. Carfree View Post
    Oh come now. We do a bit better than that, both in modal share
    Sorry for the confusion, I was talking about the modal share in the actual bike lane. Pretty hard for cyclist to use bike lanes fully occupied with cars.
    Land of the Free, Because of the Brave.

  11. #11
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Eugene, Oregon
    Posts
    4,993
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post

    I am kind of surprised at the number of illegally parked cars. Are parking violation fines super low?, or is there no enforcement, or maybe the locals know that the enforcement car comes by like clockwork at 11AM then never swings back later?
    There is no parking enforcement at all at this location. Even if there was enforcement, the fines for parking tickets are generally pretty small. In Eugene, they're something like $30.

  12. #12
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Eugene, Oregon
    Posts
    4,993
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Tomorrow I'll let everyone know where this cycling Mecca is. I know you're all waiting with bated breath for the location.

  13. #13
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Eugene, Oregon
    Posts
    4,993
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    This charming little hamlet with the illegal part-time bike lane is none other than Davis, CA. A few years ago, the city hired a segregationist as the bike coordinator and he has been happily signing off on this sort of disaster ever since. Little wonder the recovery of modal share that had occurred over the past decade is disappearing again.

    He also sees no value in promoting traffic law enforcement, and that has had the unfortunate effect of causing the city to stop doing this vital job. It has been amazing to watch the average speed at which motorists run stop signs increase over the past few years.

    If you want to check this out on Streetview, it's on B St just south of 14th St, facing south. Just north of this site is Davis High School, North Davis Elementary, Davis Library, the Veteran's Center and Community Park. Just south of this abomination is Central Park (home of the twice-weekly Farmer's Market, which can have ten percent of the city in attendance), downtown, Civic Center pool (home to the wildly popular Davis Aquatic Masters program) and the UCD Arboretum. This is a vital connecting road for people on bikes both on weekdays and on weekends, but you wouldn't know it to look at what has been done.

  14. #14
    genec genec's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    san diego
    My Bikes
    custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
    Posts
    23,045
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    So destroy it, and they go away, eh?

  15. #15
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    pdx
    My Bikes
    2007 carpe diem frame custom build, trek 7.9 frame custom build, custom built chinese carbon fiber road bike, shopping bike
    Posts
    3,303
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    And here in portland cycling has been stagnating as construction of bike lanes and bike boulevards grinds to a halt while Roger Geller hordes every active transportation penny for the next few dozen yards of "world class" infrastructure. You'd think that cities that have had success with getting residents to bike would not stop doing what works.
    Last edited by spare_wheel; 06-17-14 at 12:21 PM.
    This is why motorists hate us, and why I've given up riding on the road...You should be ashamed yourself, and you should be reviled by cyclists everywhere.

  16. #16
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Eugene, Oregon
    Posts
    4,993
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by genec View Post
    So destroy it, and they go away, eh?
    To misquote a former US President (and likely future first, er, husband) that all depends on what the definition of it is. When Davis changed one of its sidepaths to make it even more dangerous at the intersections it encountered, I don't know that there was much of an impact on ridership, although there certainly wasn't any increase.

    However, destroying nicely functioning bike lanes is likely to have an impact, in my opinion. Especially when the bike lane in question lies on a critical corridor. While bike lanes are often poorly done, and the poorly done ones should be fixed or removed, proper bike lanes are the best functioning compromise we have in the tool box as far as I can see.

  17. #17
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Eugene, Oregon
    Posts
    4,993
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
    And here in portland cycling has been stagnating as construction of bike lanes and bike boulevards grinds to a halt while Roger Geller hordes every active transportation penny for the next few dozen yards of "world class" infrastructure. You'd think that cities that have had success with getting residents to bike would not stop doing what works.
    Ideology over functionality. This is becoming all to common as we divide our society ever finer along unimportant tribal lines. I guess the world class sidewalks do make for better photo/video ops than simple, safe, functional bike lanes.

  18. #18
    genec genec's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    san diego
    My Bikes
    custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
    Posts
    23,045
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by B. Carfree View Post
    To misquote a former US President (and likely future first, er, husband) that all depends on what the definition of it is. When Davis changed one of its sidepaths to make it even more dangerous at the intersections it encountered, I don't know that there was much of an impact on ridership, although there certainly wasn't any increase.

    However, destroying nicely functioning bike lanes is likely to have an impact, in my opinion. Especially when the bike lane in question lies on a critical corridor. While bike lanes are often poorly done, and the poorly done ones should be fixed or removed, proper bike lanes are the best functioning compromise we have in the tool box as far as I can see.
    Davis has gone through this before... when the folks that had the dream of a cycling city retired and left the city leadership, the typical "car culture" crept into the city and cycling modal share went down. Davis has tried to revive the once strong cycling culture by acknowledging their roots, but the dark side is strong, and "it," the cycling culture, is likely going to suffer without nurturing. As much cycling culture as there is in Davis, the car has always been there...

  19. #19
    Senior Member dynodonn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    6,881
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Looks like the sign was turned slightly, needs to be turned back more towards the traffic lane, where it can be more easily observed by motorists attempting to park during restricted hours. The bike lane signage is pathetic.
    Last edited by dynodonn; 06-18-14 at 09:07 AM.

  20. #20
    I STILL miss East Hill :) Rollfast's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Where my bike's at
    My Bikes
    a lot
    Posts
    2,667
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    It's better than the little fleabag motel our HS pep band holed up in next to an adult shop and Dunkin Donuts back in 1982 for the state basketball tournament. It got robbed the night before we were knocked out and some of the ladies lost their purses.

    On a brighter note, I bought the Human League's DARE over the Dead Kennedys and Madness at a record store in the Earth River mall.

    PS That's refreshing, compared to the time I spent in Seattle and Tacoma dodging ambulances and rescue vehicles every five minutes from the Sheraton Downtown to the Paramount in 1991.
    Last edited by Rollfast; 06-25-14 at 02:10 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by 10 Wheels
    They can't fix expansion joints, because they expand.
    Smile at Miles with a ROLLFAST!

  21. #21
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Eugene, Oregon
    Posts
    4,993
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by genec View Post
    Davis has gone through this before... when the folks that had the dream of a cycling city retired and left the city leadership, the typical "car culture" crept into the city and cycling modal share went down. Davis has tried to revive the once strong cycling culture by acknowledging their roots, but the dark side is strong, and "it," the cycling culture, is likely going to suffer without nurturing. As much cycling culture as there is in Davis, the car has always been there...
    That's not quite the way it went down (so to speak). A host of influences killed the former Cycling Capital of the World, but the loss of visionary leaders was not among them in part because the folks pushing for cycling were never truly in power. The things that happened were:

    1. George Deukmejian became governor and immediately doubled the cost of attending the University of California. This unprecedented assault on access to the UC continued and accelerated for enough years to change the nature of the student body, the faculty and ultimately the residents. We lost all the students who worked their way through college and squeezed every nickel until it screamed in pain and replaced them with kids who were given BMW's on their sixteenth birthdays (which filled up the formerly empty student parking lots).

    2. Real estate prices ballooned in the Bay Area, which meant that incredible numbers of people decided to live in the Central Valley and commute. I watched as I-80 went from absolutely empty during commute hours in 1984 to packed with cars in 1987. It was a quick transformation and it caused Davis to change from a self-contained city to a suburb full of commuters. At that point, it also began attracting commuters who worked in Sacramento. These new local commuters did not join those of us who were cycling between Davis and Sac, but drove their cars instead.

    3. The city adopted densification policies. These would have been benign in the '70s, but by the time they adopted them we had so many new motorists that they simply created zones of high car density. Eventually, one had to cross so many such car-dense zones to get anywhere that many former car-free people gave in and became car-dependent.

    4. Segregationists got power among city staff. Pushing bikes off to dangerous side paths didn't exactly help us get more people riding.

    Davis is a high-turnover city. With something like 40,000 students at UCD and the fact that being on the faculty or staff at UCD isn't very many people's dream job, that's a lot of folks coming and going into the local culture every year. Very few current residents are even aware of what that city was like when cars were outnumbered scores to one; they've never seen it and can't imagine it. In spite of that, a small group, led by the outgoing mayor, did try to bring it back a few years ago. While that did result in some gains, they are being lost daily. In my opinion, it will be difficult to reverse these losses if crap like the "bike lane" in the OP keep going in.

  22. #22
    genec genec's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    san diego
    My Bikes
    custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
    Posts
    23,045
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by B. Carfree View Post
    That's not quite the way it went down (so to speak). A host of influences killed the former Cycling Capital of the World, but the loss of visionary leaders was not among them in part because the folks pushing for cycling were never truly in power. The things that happened were:

    1. George Deukmejian became governor and immediately doubled the cost of attending the University of California. This unprecedented assault on access to the UC continued and accelerated for enough years to change the nature of the student body, the faculty and ultimately the residents. We lost all the students who worked their way through college and squeezed every nickel until it screamed in pain and replaced them with kids who were given BMW's on their sixteenth birthdays (which filled up the formerly empty student parking lots).

    2. Real estate prices ballooned in the Bay Area, which meant that incredible numbers of people decided to live in the Central Valley and commute. I watched as I-80 went from absolutely empty during commute hours in 1984 to packed with cars in 1987. It was a quick transformation and it caused Davis to change from a self-contained city to a suburb full of commuters. At that point, it also began attracting commuters who worked in Sacramento. These new local commuters did not join those of us who were cycling between Davis and Sac, but drove their cars instead.

    3. The city adopted densification policies. These would have been benign in the '70s, but by the time they adopted them we had so many new motorists that they simply created zones of high car density. Eventually, one had to cross so many such car-dense zones to get anywhere that many former car-free people gave in and became car-dependent.

    4. Segregationists got power among city staff. Pushing bikes off to dangerous side paths didn't exactly help us get more people riding.

    Davis is a high-turnover city. With something like 40,000 students at UCD and the fact that being on the faculty or staff at UCD isn't very many people's dream job, that's a lot of folks coming and going into the local culture every year. Very few current residents are even aware of what that city was like when cars were outnumbered scores to one; they've never seen it and can't imagine it. In spite of that, a small group, led by the outgoing mayor, did try to bring it back a few years ago. While that did result in some gains, they are being lost daily. In my opinion, it will be difficult to reverse these losses if crap like the "bike lane" in the OP keep going in.
    I have also read that the original folks that pushed for the cycling movement in Davis got older, retired, died or moved on... and you are right, they were not in power, they had to work hard to get Davis to the point it was. Thus the inventive thrust to keep Davis cycling went away and was not quickly renewed... without that untiring support and of course with the stuff you mentioned, no doubt the crush of car culture has "taketh away." It really is hard to be an island in the stream.

    I never saw Davis in the supposed bike heyday. I visited for the first time about 4 years ago and saw some good aspects and largely not much more than exists in other areas of America. I was rather disappointed in the path structure as the paths were really quite narrow and designed for low speed cycling. The layout of the area of the city I saw did offer good access to the paths (cul-de-sacs terminating in paths resulting in a "mirrored" cycling network), but it was obvious that this design was not repeated in the newer areas of town... thus defeating the purpose of the overall design. I was largely dismayed by the huge presence of cars, not bikes at the local shopping areas. A few bike racks, while nice, did not offset the huge number of automotive parking spaces.

    Davis seems to still broadcast itself as a cycling city, but the vast presence of motoring specific designs echos the truth.

    That the bike racks at the train station were overflowing however is at least a reminder of what could be.
    Last edited by genec; 06-25-14 at 03:15 PM.

  23. #23
    genec genec's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    san diego
    My Bikes
    custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
    Posts
    23,045
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by B. Carfree View Post
    This charming little hamlet with the illegal part-time bike lane is none other than Davis, CA. A few years ago, the city hired a segregationist as the bike coordinator and he has been happily signing off on this sort of disaster ever since. Little wonder the recovery of modal share that had occurred over the past decade is disappearing again.

    He also sees no value in promoting traffic law enforcement, and that has had the unfortunate effect of causing the city to stop doing this vital job. It has been amazing to watch the average speed at which motorists run stop signs increase over the past few years.

    If you want to check this out on Streetview, it's on B St just south of 14th St, facing south. Just north of this site is Davis High School, North Davis Elementary, Davis Library, the Veteran's Center and Community Park. Just south of this abomination is Central Park (home of the twice-weekly Farmer's Market, which can have ten percent of the city in attendance), downtown, Civic Center pool (home to the wildly popular Davis Aquatic Masters program) and the UCD Arboretum. This is a vital connecting road for people on bikes both on weekdays and on weekends, but you wouldn't know it to look at what has been done.
    BTW being a "segregationist" is not a terrible thing in the case of differing modes of traffic... it all depends on how it is handled. There is no way to remove the fear of large powerful motor vehicles from the minds of some people... this is quite evident when watching pedestrians cross the street in front of stopped cars at a crosswalk. Some just walk across, no problem, others hustle in fright that "the car" is going to suddenly leap forward and devour them. You cannot easily remove such fear.

    All traffic should be able to "integrate" at slow speeds... but that takes first and foremost cooperation from all the traffic... and if a motorist is sitting impatiently revving their engine, they are working to intimidate others. If a motorist is failing to cooperate by driving too fast or not following the rules of the road for drivers of vehicles, then those more vulnerable (not covered in a metal cage) are likely to react poorly. You can get the same reactions from people with a loud barking dog.

    But at some point integration becomes difficult... or less desirable; this tends to happen at higher road speeds and with greater traffic density. Offering well designed alternatives to dealing with MV traffic under such conditions is not a bad thing... typical examples are shortcuts or bypasses to freeway intersections or heavily used arterial roads.

    But having a segregationist attitude and implementing it poorly leads to "ghettos."

    The most interesting path network I ever used was in Oulo Finland... where the paths and routes for cyclists tended to be shorter than the routes for motorists... no doubt on the assumption that motorists did little actual "work" and thus could "afford" to go the extra mile. Bike paths were more direct, cars went around. Bikes went right to the core of the city, cars parked outside the core and pedestrians had to walk in. This was the result of segregation... it was well implemented and it worked. The biggest problem I saw was not enough bike racks in the core of the city.

    Trying to segregate cyclists by allocating a tiny piece of a roadway designed primarily for the automobile (and based on laws designed to maximize flow, vice safety) is not a good implementation of segregationist planning.

    And of course no matter how we call it, or how we discuss it, the political aspect of using terms such as "segregationist" will always be negative and imply bad things. And some folks will jump on such terms with counter terms regarding "rights." Such debates however matter little if in fact everyone is actually being well served.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •