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-   -   Discussion with co-worker...leap-frogging. (http://www.bikeforums.net/advocacy-safety/954231-discussion-co-worker-leap-frogging.html)

spivonious 06-17-14 10:30 AM

Discussion with co-worker...leap-frogging.
 
My co-worker brought up something this morning that was annoying him yesterday. He was driving down one of the main roads into Lancaster city and was continually being leap-frogged by a bicyclist near the local college. He'd move over into the other lane (when safe) to pass him, and then the bicyclist would catch up to him at a red light and pass him on the right, running the light. This happened six times before my co-worker got frustrated just followed behind him at 15mph until the bicyclist turned off. At this point, the bicyclist was visibly agitated by my co-worker not passing.

He expressed frustration at cyclists who run red lights and he felt that the cyclist shouldn't have continually re-passed him on the right.

I wasn't sure how to respond. My regular commuting route has wide shoulders allowing cars to pass me without moving into the other lane.

Thoughts?

Wilbur Bud 06-17-14 10:36 AM

Not much to do ! Sounds like your friend adapted to the vagaries of another traveler having an impact on his or her trip. If it's a regular/daily event then he or she can take video and report to police for enforcement, as behavior rarely changes without consequences as motivation. If the motorist's trip is governed by ill-timed lights then it's not like the (rude to some) cyclist was causing a real delay, just a transient adaptation. I don't pass twice myself when commuting, for the very reason described, but then I'm rarely in a hurry on my bike. Of course, they could always talk to each other.

JoeyBike 06-17-14 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spivonious (Post 16858447)
...the bicyclist would catch up to him at a red light and pass him on the right, running the light.

Thoughts?

How would your coworker feel about the exact same situation if the cyclist had not run the lights but filtered up to the front and waited like everyone else? Then when the light turned green EVERYONE would be delayed behind the cyclist even more as he got up to speed. By running the red and establishing his position on the road far ahead of the line of cars trapped at the light the cyclist actually made it easier for all of the motorists to get around him one by one at speed. In this case...15mph, instead of Zero to 15.

Personally, I don't make them re-pass. Usually I am kiting along at 20-25mph so I don't run into that scenario often, but when it happens, I just pull over in the shade, grab a swig of water, and let the entire line of cars go past me.

As a motorist, when I am driving my wife's car, I don't care if I have to pass the same cyclist a hundred times or a hundred cyclists one time each. They have just as much right to that roadway as I do and their carbon footprint compared to mine in a car actually gives them more right to be on Earth than me.

spivonious 06-17-14 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeyBike (Post 16858807)
How would your coworker feel about the exact same situation if the cyclist had not run the lights but filtered up to the front and waited like everyone else? Then when the light turned green EVERYONE would be delayed behind the cyclist even more as he got up to speed. By running the red and establishing his position on the road far ahead of the line of cars trapped at the light the cyclist actually made it easier for all of the motorists to get around him one by one at speed. In this case...15mph, instead of Zero to 15.

Personally, I don't make them re-pass. Usually I am kiting along at 20-25mph so I don't run into that scenario often, but when it happens, I just pull over in the shade, grab a swig of water, and let the entire line of cars go past me.

As a motorist, when I am driving my wife's car, I don't care if I have to pass the same cyclist a hundred times or a hundred cyclists one time each. They have just as much right to that roadway as I do and their carbon footprint compared to mine in a car actually gives them more right to be on Earth than me.

He said that the cyclist should have pulled into the line of cars when the light changed instead of filtering up on the right side. This is what I do as well, unless the filtering can be done without issue (wide shoulder). He wasn't contesting the cyclist's right to the road; he was just frustrated having to re-pass multiple times.

JoeyBike 06-17-14 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spivonious (Post 16858971)
He said that the cyclist should have pulled into the line of cars when the light changed instead of filtering up on the right side. This is what I do as well, unless the filtering can be done without issue (wide shoulder). He wasn't contesting the cyclist's right to the road; he was just frustrated having to re-pass multiple times.

Have you read this current A&S post?: http://www.bikeforums.net/advocacy-s...ched-face.html

Pretty much what you could expect in my city if you queued-up in a line of cars in the lane as if you were on a motorcycle. Then the car just ahead of you will be looking at their phone when the light turns green only to realize it when the car in front of them is gone. Then they will floor it to get through the green light leaving you STILL in the sights of the car behind you and the light about to turn red again. If I have to move over to let cars filter by to make them happy, then they have to live with me filtering by when it's my turn. I think your coworker would agree that if every cyclist did what he THINKS he wants us to do, most motorists would go crazy.

You know what's funny? When I bike home from work at 5 o'Clock rush hour I probably filter past (and sometimes get stuck behind) 1000+ cars. Guess what? Every mother's child one of them is in MY freaking way. Sometimes I have to get past the same car again and again. I don't whine about it. I just go around them. Your poor coworker had to pass one guy a few times. Boo-freakin'-hoo. I hope he won't need counseling over it.

CB HI 06-17-14 03:16 PM

Why is the co-worker racing from red light to red light? Such a rude co-worker wasting all that gas and causing added pollution.

wphamilton 06-17-14 04:50 PM

Co-worker is making the cyclist pass him again and again at the lights. Cyclist is making the co-worker pass him. Both going the same velocity over the route. I don't see how one is more or less rude than the other.

CrankyOne 06-17-14 05:02 PM

Vehicular cycling works so well...

This is a common problem here. You're shot if you do, shot if you don't. 1) Often, staying in your place in the line becomes extremely dangerous because the cars behind you will pass really close when the line starts to move or, if you take the lane then they yell and scream some more, 2) if you filter up and stay to the right then the same thing happens but you also get screamed at for blocking people and for causing them to pass you again and again, 3) if you jump the red so you can get a head start so that cars can pass you more safely then you're taken down for running the red light and causing them to have to pass you again and again.

None of this is ever a problem in The Netherlands.

spare_wheel 06-17-14 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spivonious (Post 16858971)
He said that the cyclist should have pulled into the line of cars when the light changed instead of filtering up on the right side. This is what I do as well, unless the filtering can be done without issue (wide shoulder).

You want me to sandwich myself between two inattentive cagers and breathe tail pipe emissions repeatedly on my commute?

Ummm...thanks but no thanks.

achoo 06-17-14 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spare_wheel (Post 16859756)
You want me to sandwich myself between two inattentive cagers and breathe tail pipe emissions repeatedly on my commute?

Ummm...thanks but no thanks.

Waaah. If you can't deal with riding on the roads, stick to the MUPs.

Keith99 06-17-14 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spivonious (Post 16858447)
My co-worker brought up something this morning that was annoying him yesterday. He was driving down one of the main roads into Lancaster city and was continually being leap-frogged by a bicyclist near the local college. He'd move over into the other lane (when safe) to pass him, and then the bicyclist would catch up to him at a red light and pass him on the right, running the light. This happened six times before my co-worker got frustrated just followed behind him at 15mph until the bicyclist turned off. At this point, the bicyclist was visibly agitated by my co-worker not passing.

He expressed frustration at cyclists who run red lights and he felt that the cyclist shouldn't have continually re-passed him on the right.

I wasn't sure how to respond. My regular commuting route has wide shoulders allowing cars to pass me without moving into the other lane.

Thoughts?

Your co worker obeyed the law at all times. The cyclist regularly broke it.

Cyclists complain when drivers pass them instead of waiting. Then when a driver decides to wait the cyclist seems upset.

Drivers just can't win.

OldTryGuy 06-17-14 06:38 PM

Maybe this, Fiat - Bicycle (funny commercial) - YouTube, could make his day.

Chris516 06-17-14 07:24 PM

I am 50/50 about the leap-frogging. But I agree with your co-worker about blowing through the red light.

RoadTire 06-17-14 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OldTryGuy (Post 16859944)
Maybe this, Fiat - Bicycle (funny commercial) - YouTube, could make his day.

Winning!

howsteepisit 06-17-14 07:49 PM

Its kind of like traffic in hilly terrain. gong downhill, a heavy truck may well pass a car, going up the next hill the car may pass the truck. Its just the way traffic flows. Seems like you co-worker gets upset when others do not use the roadway the same way they do.

FBinNY 06-17-14 08:28 PM

I don't have hard and fast rules about this, but understand how it can frustrate drivers on narrow roads. They drive along at bicycle speed patiently waiting for a safe passing opportunity. Finally they get free to continue at the limit only to have a cyclist filter up and jump a light and start the process afresh.

Fair's fair, and subjecting the same driver to the need to pass you by using red lights to advantage,isn't. If lack of passing opportunities means you're holding up a driver a while, that's life. But to do it repeatedly because you can run red lights is an imposition.

If passing is easy, then no problem because you're not imposing on anybody. But if passing isn't, then limit the leapfrogging to once or twice, then let that group go on about their day.

CB HI 06-17-14 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FBinNY (Post 16860192)
I don't have hard and fast rules about this, but understand how it can frustrate drivers on narrow roads. They drive along at bicycle speed patiently waiting for a safe passing opportunity. Finally they get free to continue at the limit only to have a cyclist filter up and jump a light and start the process afresh.

Fair's fair, and subjecting the same driver to the need to pass you by using red lights to advantage,isn't. If lack of passing opportunities means you're holding up a driver a while, that's life. But to do it repeatedly because you can run red lights is an imposition.

If passing is easy, then no problem because you're not imposing on anybody. But if passing isn't, then limit the leapfrogging to once or twice, then let that group go on about their day.

How many single lane roads have that many red lights?

CB HI 06-17-14 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keith99 (Post 16859796)
Your co worker obeyed the law at all times. The cyclist regularly broke it.

Cyclists complain when drivers pass them instead of waiting. Then when a driver decides to wait the cyclist seems upset.

Drivers just can't win.

The co-worker would be just upset or even more upset if the cyclist legally filtered and waited for the light to turn green.

Rolling the red by the cyclist had little to do with the real traffic situation created by motorist congestion.

B. Carfree 06-17-14 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keith99 (Post 16859796)
Your co worker obeyed the law at all times. The cyclist regularly broke it.

Cyclists complain when drivers pass them instead of waiting. Then when a driver decides to wait the cyclist seems upset.

Drivers just can't win.

We have no evidence to that effect. If this motorist is typical, he was speeding and also passing closer than state law permits. If this was the one in ten thousand motorists who obeys the law, then I suspect the OP would have noted it somehow.

The problem for the motorist here is the difference in peak speeds in spite of relatively similar average speeds. The motorist is likely exacerbating his problem by travelling in excess of the speed limit.

FBinNY 06-17-14 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CB HI (Post 16860238)
How many single lane roads have that many red lights?

Tons in eastern suburban areas. There are roads here where I can leapfrog for almost 10 miles. But, as I said, there's no hard rule, and each situation calls for some common sense and courtesy.

On one of my regular commuting routes, the bus and I have just about identical average speeds. I can play leapfrog with them for the whole ten miles if I want to without using the lights to filter past. I'm friendly with the drivers and one kept count one day and it was over 25 leaps.

Not counting the buses, which are handicapped by the stops, I make it a point not to hold drivers back, and either create passing opportunities, or will hold at a light until all who've passed can move ahead of me.

spare_wheel 06-17-14 10:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by achoo (Post 16859775)
Waaah. If you can't deal with riding on the roads, stick to the MUPs.

:roflmao2:

it's absolutely hilarious that you believe that riding on the roads requires behaving like a motor vehicle.
i split lanes, jump lines , jump/run lights, and violate afrap/msp laws every commute...and i do so in a considerate manner.

spare_wheel 06-17-14 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keith99 (Post 16859796)
Your co worker obeyed the law at all times. The cyclist regularly broke it.

Cyclists complain when drivers pass them instead of waiting. Then when a driver decides to wait the cyclist seems upset.

Drivers just can't win.

drivers have crafted laws that simply make no sense when it comes to cycling. i make a point of violating them as often as possible without a trace of regret.

MMACH 5 06-17-14 10:36 PM

As a commuter, I interact with many of the same motorists, day in and day out.
They wait in line, sometimes. I wait in line, sometimes.
They don't filter. I don't filter.
If I pull up behind them, they probably just passed me. I'm not going to force them to make their way around me again.
We're all just trying to get to work.

I choose to ride this way because it works for me. JoeyBike's riding habits seem to serve him well, in his environment. I would not be comfortable with that type of riding, but I don't fault anyone for doing it how they see fit.

As for the OP's request for thoughts about his coworker's interaction with the cyclist, I do understand the coworker's frustration. However, anytime I hear about motorists being frustrated with cyclists, I have to wonder if they feel the same frustration for other motorists' misdeeds.

FBinNY 06-17-14 11:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MMACH 5 (Post 16860434)
As a commuter, I interact with many of the same motorists, day in and day out.
They wait in line, sometimes. I wait in line, sometimes.
They don't filter. I don't filter.
If I pull up behind them, they probably just passed me. I'm not going to force them to make their way around me again.
We're all just trying to get to work. ....

+1

This is the reality, neither is right nor wrong, so might as try to get along.

CB HI 06-18-14 02:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FBinNY (Post 16860290)
Tons in eastern suburban areas. There are roads here where I can leapfrog for almost 10 miles. But, as I said, there's no hard rule, and each situation calls for some common sense and courtesy.

On one of my regular commuting routes, the bus and I have just about identical average speeds. I can play leapfrog with them for the whole ten miles if I want to without using the lights to filter past. I'm friendly with the drivers and one kept count one day and it was over 25 leaps.

Not counting the buses, which are handicapped by the stops, I make it a point not to hold drivers back, and either create passing opportunities, or will hold at a light until all who've passed can move ahead of me.

Putting that many lights on single lane roads is a real waste when stop signs would work fine. I can understand lights at the school intersections.

Leap frogging buses is an everyday event and has never been a big deal.


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