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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrankyOne View Post
    The Dutch system has proven much safer, per mile ridden and per capita, than riding on the roads in the U.S., and that is with a good percentage of people riding quite fast on the Dutch system.
    Risk for pedestrians in major urban areas is just as terrible even though most major USAnian cities have excellent facilities for pedestrians. Maybe it's not the presence or absence of infrastructure but rather a car-centric legal/political system that enables consequence-free vehicular homicide.
    Last edited by spare_wheel; 06-23-14 at 05:19 PM.
    Road rash is a precious gift. Road rash is your friend. Bask in it, appreciate it, love it. Above all, learn from it. --Robert Hurst

  2. #77
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
    risk for pedestrians in major urban areas is just as terrible even though most major usanian cities have excellent facilities for pedestrians. Maybe it's not the presence or absence of infrastructure but rather a car-centric legal/political system that enables consequence-free vehicular homicide.
    bingo!

  3. #78
    Senior Member CrankyOne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
    almost half of adults in the netherlands are obese or overweight. even more troubling, obesity among dutch children is epidemic.
    Where did you get this?

  4. #79
    Senior Member jputnam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrankyOne View Post
    What speed is 'roadway attainable speed'? How many average people can ride that fast?
    AASHTO says the average, non-enthusiast adult riding an upright bike goes 15 mph on level ground; they recommend an 18 mph design speed to accommodate typical adults on upright bikes. That doesn't mean all adults always ride 18 mph, of course. Remember, if you're designing for the average speed, you're designing a facility that's intentionally unsafe for half its users.
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  5. #80
    I STILL miss East Hill :) Rollfast's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
    Risk for pedestrians in major urban areas is just as terrible even though most major USAnian cities have excellent facilities for pedestrians. Maybe it's not the presence or absence of infrastructure but rather a car-centric legal/political system that enables consequence-free vehicular homicide.
    This is purely subjective. All parties engaged in traffic must interact. No one segment is favored. I cannot honor the bingo card.
    Quote Originally Posted by 10 Wheels
    They can't fix expansion joints, because they expand.
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  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by jyl View Post
    This design and similar ones have been discussed quite a bit in Portland. The pros and cons I see:

    Pros:
    Don't get doored by drivers or cut off by cars pulling in/out of parking spot.
    Less likely to be right hooked (much less likely where signals are adjusted, and somewhat less likely where intersection is not signalized).

    Cons:
    Get doored by passengers and blocked by people walking to parked cars. Mom unloading her baby buggy or helping grandma and her walker could block the bike lane for minutes at a time.
    Hard to pass slower cyclists. Impossible to pass bike trailers, two abreast riders, weaving newbies.
    Trash, leaves, snow, even rain flooding pile up in the lane. Needs special equipment to sweep.
    Ride right next to pedestrians, children, dogs, etc. Worrisome at 10 mph, outright dangerous at 25 mph.
    Left turns become a two-signal phase wait.
    Implicitly tells drivers that cyclists don't belong on their streets.

    Admittedly I've never seen one of these in action, but at this point I'm skeptical leaning to negative.

    So many people who want "separated cycle infrastructure" seem to have the idea that urban cyclists shouldn't need to watch for cars or pedestrians or other hazards, but should be able to sail along as if they were on a MUP. They also seem to think all cyclists ride slowly.

    I think that, in dense commercial areas where there are also a lot of pedestrians, car traffic should be calmed to 20-25 mph using posted limits, speed cameras/signs, roadway narrowing (bumpouts, center medians, etc), speed humps, signal timing, etc, and cyclists should simply ride in the same lanes as cars. On commercial, residential, or arterial streets where car speeds are >30 mph, there should be painted bike lanes alongside the parking zone, ideally nice a wide with a painted buffer to the adjacent traffic lane, and these should be on every such street instead of just a few. In quiet residential areas where car speeds are naturally 20-25 mph, I don't see the need for any special treatment.
    I have seen one of these in action up close in Munich. I was the clueless American pedestrian that almost got hit. It did not take me long to figure out why half the sidewalk was packed full and the other half was empty. Almost get run over one time and you learn to stay off the bike only lane.

  7. #82
    I STILL miss East Hill :) Rollfast's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jputnam View Post
    AASHTO says the average, non-enthusiast adult riding an upright bike goes 15 mph on level ground; they recommend an 18 mph design speed to accommodate typical adults on upright bikes. That doesn't mean all adults always ride 18 mph, of course. Remember, if you're designing for the average speed, you're designing a facility that's intentionally unsafe for half its users.
    Most bicyclists are going to set a pace that is accommodating for their intent. Not everyone wants to go fast, that is not a realistic goal for the average rider. Many are recreational or speed is not in the interest of their perception of safety. Pinning them to an average or maximum speed is an issue of VEHICULAR CYCLING.
    Quote Originally Posted by 10 Wheels
    They can't fix expansion joints, because they expand.
    Smile at Miles with a ROLLFAST!

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrankyOne View Post
    Where did you get this?
    DutchNews.nl - More than half Dutch men, almost half of women are overweight
    Road rash is a precious gift. Road rash is your friend. Bask in it, appreciate it, love it. Above all, learn from it. --Robert Hurst

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rollfast View Post
    This is purely subjective. All parties engaged in traffic must interact. No one segment is favored. I cannot honor the bingo card.
    the lower rates of pedestrian death in nations with strict legal liability are *not subjective*.
    Road rash is a precious gift. Road rash is your friend. Bask in it, appreciate it, love it. Above all, learn from it. --Robert Hurst

  10. #85
    Senior Member work4bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by work4bike View Post
    I have seen cycling first hand in Holland and it's just not for me; I guess you really can't teach an old dog new tricks Sharing the road is just part of me. I've been commuting for over 25 years and my longest commute was a 50-mile roundtrip and when you do long trips it turns you into a sort of speeddemon. I can't ride around at 11-16 mph pace, even if I have the time; my body is just conditioned to riding faster, it just feels natural.

    BTW, you all notice that there is no such thing as a bike path in the U.S. They all become MUPs. Wouldn't separated cycling tracks be the same?


    Quote Originally Posted by JoeyBike View Post
    "Bike" Lanes have an additional challenge: Pedestrians. Invariably, bike paths and lanes are going to attract pedestrians, joggers, skateboarders, baby strollers, and other users well under the "13mph" average for cyclists. Unregulated, there will be users spread out across the paths/lanes walking at 2mph and some cyclists hammering at 20+mph along with the ones going "13". That is a speed differential of 6x to 10x. No traffic engineer wants to see those numbers, which is why they post MINIMUM speed limits on some roadways. If the max speed is 70mph and the minimum speed is 50mph, the speed differential is still less than 2X even though the MPH difference is 20 mph. Other roads without minimum speed limits are engineered and posted for the slowest, top-heavy-est vehicle on the road. Basically the posted speed limit on those roadways ARE the minimum speed safe for all users. School zones and other areas with dense pedestrian crossings drop the limits even lower. My city is full of streets marked 35mph that look like 50mph would be OK. Those are marked for the least common denominator.

    ^^These are often the people engineering bike lanes and paths in the USofA. They are applying the wrong formulas to bike paths and lanes.
    A lot of this talk is just a moot point, since I don't see any city spending the money needed to make cycling tracks to the standards of the Dutch system, including the lighting system, which is crucial to make cycling tracks work in a city. I don't want it around here, because I can see this as a slippery slope in getting cyclists off the road, but again not worried about it coming here, so a moot point.

    However, I would like to see a city like Portland or NYC get them, just so we can take all the banter out of the theoretical to the real world. One of the biggest problems I can see I mentioned in my post above about other people cluttering up the tracks. And was repeated again by JoeyBike, but haven't seen anyone really address it. Even in NYC I've seen issues with pedestrians aimlessly crossing the bike lanes and loading trucks obstructing them. Maybe separated tracks will fix the loading truck issues, but not the pedestrian issues.
    "The aim of science is to make difficult things understandable in a simpler way; the aim of poetry is to state simple things in an incomprehensible way. The two are incompatible."

    -- Paul Dirac

  11. #86
    Senior Member jputnam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rollfast View Post
    Most bicyclists are going to set a pace that is accommodating for their intent. Not everyone wants to go fast, that is not a realistic goal for the average rider. Many are recreational or speed is not in the interest of their perception of safety. Pinning them to an average or maximum speed is an issue of VEHICULAR CYCLING.
    Right, that's why I intentionally didn't quote any numbers for fast cyclists.

    Couch potatoes on cruisers go 15 mph on the flats.

    Fast cyclists regularly top 30 mph, but AASHTO notes they'll usually avoid any segregated cycling facilities and ride on the street where those speeds are safe.
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/jputnam/collections/72157604835074312/

  12. #87
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jputnam View Post
    Right, that's why I intentionally didn't quote any numbers for fast cyclists.

    Couch potatoes on cruisers go 15 mph on the flats.

    Fast cyclists regularly top 30 mph, but AASHTO notes they'll usually avoid any segregated cycling facilities and ride on the street where those speeds are safe.
    I suspect that those really fast cyclists are also a very tiny minority... and if cycling modal share increased in any manner, that minority would become even smaller... due simply to the fact that most people are not able and will not attempt to maintain such speeds. I could ride that fast in my carless days and at my peak... these days I tend more toward 16MPH with rare bursts to 22 or so. When I ride with a load, 12-13 is more my pace.

  13. #88
    Senior Member daihard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jputnam View Post
    Fast cyclists regularly top 30 mph, but AASHTO notes they'll usually avoid any segregated cycling facilities and ride on the street where those speeds are safe.
    Seriously? I ride on the road a lot, and I hardly run into any cyclist who does 30 MPH. Do you know of any Seattle area roads where I can witness those fast cyclists? No sarcasm - I'm genuinely curious.
    Badly-behaved cyclists are usually just cyclists with inadequate infrastructure. Or none at all. - Mikael Colville-Andersen

  14. #89
    Senior Member work4bike's Avatar
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    I know where you could see a cyclist hit 30 quite often, but you'd have to go to the Jacksonville area.

    I can hit 30 fairly easy and I'm pushing 50 and ride a heavy bike w/ gear, so hitting 30 is easy, but maintaining, not so much.
    "The aim of science is to make difficult things understandable in a simpler way; the aim of poetry is to state simple things in an incomprehensible way. The two are incompatible."

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  15. #90
    Senior Member work4bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jputnam View Post
    Right, that's why I intentionally didn't quote any numbers for fast cyclists.

    Couch potatoes on cruisers go 15 mph on the flats.

    Fast cyclists regularly top 30 mph, but AASHTO notes they'll usually avoid any segregated cycling facilities and ride on the street where those speeds are safe.
    BTW, couch potatoes can ride at 15 mph, but it's been my observation that they can NOT maintain that for very long, even here in flat Florida.
    "The aim of science is to make difficult things understandable in a simpler way; the aim of poetry is to state simple things in an incomprehensible way. The two are incompatible."

    -- Paul Dirac

  16. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by jputnam View Post
    AASHTO says the average, non-enthusiast adult riding an upright bike goes 15 mph on level ground; they recommend an 18 mph design speed to accommodate typical adults on upright bikes. That doesn't mean all adults always ride 18 mph, of course. Remember, if you're designing for the average speed, you're designing a facility that's intentionally unsafe for half its users.
    You can say that about streets too, most of todays cars and many drivers can go faster than what most roads will accomidate, but going the maximum possible speed isn't what public roads are for.
    If the goal of bicycling infrastructure is to make cycling a more attractive and practical transportation option for non enthusiasts, does all infrastructure really need to be built to accommodate those who ride faster than average as long as there isn't any mandatory use laws?

  17. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by daihard View Post
    Seriously? I ride on the road a lot, and I hardly run into any cyclist who does 30 MPH. Do you know of any Seattle area roads where I can witness those fast cyclists? No sarcasm - I'm genuinely curious.
    Try lake Washington blvd on bicycle Sundays.....maybe.
    I rarely see riders going those speeds either.

  18. #93
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kickstart View Post
    You can say that about streets too, most of todays cars and many drivers can go faster than what most roads will accomidate, but going the maximum possible speed isn't what public roads are for.
    If the goal of bicycling infrastructure is to make cycling a more attractive and practical transportation option for non enthusiasts, does all infrastructure really need to be built to accommodate those who ride faster than average as long as there isn't any mandatory use laws?
    Exactly... but on the other hand it wouldn't hurt to design a few "bicycle freeways" to allow fast bike transit across town... in which case the infrastructure should be designed to handle cyclists at speeds of 30MPH.

  19. #94
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jputnam View Post
    Fast cyclists regularly top 30 mph, but AASHTO notes they'll usually avoid any segregated cycling facilities and ride on the street where those speeds are safe.
    Where are those streets, especially in cities, where "fast cyclists" regularly ride at 30 mph for any length of time or distance? Maybe on downhill slopes but not likely anywhere else. What percentage of current riders on city streets (i.e. not on club or training rides) fit into your so-called "fast cyclists" designation?

  20. #95
    Senior Member CrankyOne's Avatar
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    What about 'obesity among dutch children is epidemic."?

  21. #96
    Senior Member work4bike's Avatar
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    The whole point being is that the entire world is getting fat and fatter with every passing year; gone are the days when you could just put this title on America, period. We're not even the fattest country anymore America no longer world?s fattest developed nation, UN report says


    And this trend has been happening for a long time and will continue as long as people's living standards get higher; it just goes to show you that people are people no matter where you go.

    This article was from 2007 and it's even worse today and going to get worse, including every country in the EU. The World Is Fat: Obesity Now Outweighs Hunger WorldWide - Scientific American
    "The aim of science is to make difficult things understandable in a simpler way; the aim of poetry is to state simple things in an incomprehensible way. The two are incompatible."

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  22. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by genec View Post
    Exactly... but on the other hand it wouldn't hurt to design a few "bicycle freeways" to allow fast bike transit across town... in which case the infrastructure should be designed to handle cyclists at speeds of 30MPH.
    agreed.

  23. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
    Where are those streets, especially in cities, where "fast cyclists" regularly ride at 30 mph for any length of time or distance? Maybe on downhill slopes but not likely anywhere else. What percentage of current riders on city streets (i.e. not on club or training rides) fit into your so-called "fast cyclists" designation?
    I'm on the road 10 hours a day in the Seattle metropolitan area, yet I almost never see cyclists going that fast except going down some hills as I do on my morning commute. Sustained high speed riding seems to be mostly limited to weekend warriors riding destination roads outside of urban areas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kickstart View Post
    You can say that about streets too, most of todays cars and many drivers can go faster than what most roads will accomidate, but going the maximum possible speed isn't what public roads are for.
    If the goal of bicycling infrastructure is to make cycling a more attractive and practical transportation option for non enthusiasts, does all infrastructure really need to be built to accommodate those who ride faster than average as long as there isn't any mandatory use laws?
    Nearly all motor vehicles can exceed most road speed limits. That's irrelevant to this discussion. The relevant point is that the facilities for America's bicycle transportation system are officially intended to safely accommodate bicycle riders of all ages and all levels of traffic skill. That means that the designs must favor the low-skills end of the population (because the requirements prohibit designs that requires significant traffic skills), and the combination of cost and politics will sharply cut off money spent on making the designs safe for faster than average cycling. Therefore, these facilities built for America's bicycle transportation system, being bikeways but not roadways, will be found unsatisfactory for those cyclists who understand the benefits of operating according to the rules of the road for drivers of vehicles and who cycle faster than average. Therefore, the bikeway system ought to be what its advocates claim for it, an option for those who prefer it, and not a ghetto established by motordom within which to confine cyclists. That's the issue in contention.

  25. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by daihard View Post
    Seriously? I ride on the road a lot, and I hardly run into any cyclist who does 30 MPH. Do you know of any Seattle area roads where I can witness those fast cyclists? No sarcasm - I'm genuinely curious.
    part of my bike commute for almost a decade: http://goo.gl/maps/ykRsy.
    i typically hit and maintained 30+ for ~1.5 km on my way to UW.
    Road rash is a precious gift. Road rash is your friend. Bask in it, appreciate it, love it. Above all, learn from it. --Robert Hurst

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