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  1. #151
    Senior Member squirtdad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kickstart View Post
    That's funny,
    I'm 50, have driven professionally in all 48 and most of Canada yet I have never seen someone go into a "homicidal rage" over a minor inconvenience, a few may make bad decisions because of ignorance or impatience, but that's it.
    For someone who seems to have a strong counter culture, "they did it to us" attitude, I find it odd that you advocate a police state rather than suitable facilities for everyone.........or maybe that's just some mecentric coming through.
    But thats ok, we all do it sometimes, it's human nature.
    at bit OT but road rage is real

    I have had a guy brake check me hard at 80 mph because I did not move right to let him by fast enough

    I had a guy follow me yelling and screaming for 20 minutes because I honked at him.

    At least in my area people are killed by road ragers every, year...often with a ***, not the vehicle.
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  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by squirtdad View Post
    at bit OT but road rage is real

    I have had a guy brake check me hard at 80 mph because I did not move right to let him by fast enough

    I had a guy follow me yelling and screaming for 20 minutes because I honked at him.

    At least in my area people are killed by road ragers every, year...often with a ***, not the vehicle.
    yes, road rage is real, but its also very uncommon to encounter. Its also illegal and everyone knows it yet it still happens, the point being laws and education won't eliminate it, ergo offering the option of bike infrastructure in locations where there's a high likelihood of unfavorable interaction between motorists, cyclists, and pedestrians can help minimize the possibility.
    The woman in Kentucky is a good example of where targeted bike infrastructure would benefit all by eliminating conflict.

  3. #153
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kickstart View Post
    That's funny,
    I'm 50, have driven professionally in all 48 and most of Canada yet I have never seen someone go into a "homicidal rage" over a minor inconvenience, a few may make bad decisions because of ignorance or impatience, but that's it.
    For someone who seems to have a strong counter culture, "they did it to us" attitude, I find it odd that you advocate a police state rather than suitable facilities for everyone.........or maybe that's just some mecentric coming through.
    But thats ok, we all do it sometimes, it's human nature.
    No doubt I have not driven anywhere near the miles you have, but I have to laugh at that "never seen someone go into a "homicidal rage" over a minor inconvenience" statement.

    Just in the last couple of days I have watched motorists weave left and right behind some other motorist... in that "hunting for a way around" situation that smacks of desperation... trying to pass on the left (between lanes of traffic) or on the right (onto poor shoulders) only to either be blocked due to the construction of the road or the presence of other traffic, or to somehow pass and race ahead some 4-5 car lengths to the red light. (gee, gained a lot there... idiot.) I even saw a cop do it... if it were an emergency, the cop could have used lights and siren... but apparently doing the weaving desperation thing was enough. (oh and the irony... right behind him was another cop, that didn't do the desperation thing... it was just comical to watch) I saw a motorcyclist do it, and put himself in a damn close call situation by weaving into the path of an oncoming truck. Yeah, the biker just cleared... so golly gosh, apparently legal, just stupid. And those are just a few examples.

    Indeed, "homicidal rage" is something of an exaggeration... but I tell you folks are driving like there is some sort of bee in their bonnet... maybe not everywhere... but I see it plenty around here.

    Find a seat in a sidewalk cafe near a busy intersection and enjoy your coffee... and keep score... it is amazing what is going on out there... even though death and destruction are not happening with each event, there are quite a few "near events."

  4. #154
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kickstart View Post
    yes, road rage is real, but its also very uncommon to encounter. Its also illegal and everyone knows it yet it still happens, the point being laws and education won't eliminate it, ergo offering the option of bike infrastructure in locations where there's a high likelihood of unfavorable interaction between motorists, cyclists, and pedestrians can help minimize the possibility.
    The woman in Kentucky is a good example of where targeted bike infrastructure would benefit all by eliminating conflict.
    I have to agree... and again I declare:

    we create roads for less than well trained drivers... and remind them of their responsibilities all the time... with markers, signs, paint, curbs islands and too many traffic signals... so what is wrong with doing the same for cyclists... especially when said cyclists would otherwise be forced to share the same darn motoring based infrastructure, albeit at speeds that are only going to irritate the already riled motorists.

  5. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by genec View Post
    No doubt I have not driven anywhere near the miles you have, but I have to laugh at that "never seen someone go into a "homicidal rage" over a minor inconvenience" statement.

    Just in the last couple of days I have watched motorists weave left and right behind some other motorist... in that "hunting for a way around" situation that smacks of desperation... trying to pass on the left (between lanes of traffic) or on the right (onto poor shoulders) only to either be blocked due to the construction of the road or the presence of other traffic, or to somehow pass and race ahead some 4-5 car lengths to the red light. (gee, gained a lot there... idiot.) I even saw a cop do it... if it were an emergency, the cop could have used lights and siren... but apparently doing the weaving desperation thing was enough. (oh and the irony... right behind him was another cop, that didn't do the desperation thing... it was just comical to watch) I saw a motorcyclist do it, and put himself in a damn close call situation by weaving into the path of an oncoming truck. Yeah, the biker just cleared... so golly gosh, apparently legal, just stupid. And those are just a few examples.

    Indeed, "homicidal rage" is something of an exaggeration... but I tell you folks are driving like there is some sort of bee in their bonnet... maybe not everywhere... but I see it plenty around here.

    Find a seat in a sidewalk cafe near a busy intersection and enjoy your coffee... and keep score... it is amazing what is going on out there... even though death and destruction are not happening with each event, there are quite a few "near events."
    I suppose being on the road 10 hours a day has desensitized me a bit, but I consider someone being a "Richard" very different from genuine road rage. The funny thing is my ride home after a day on the road is such a relief because drivers are so much more patient, courteous, and respectful then when I'm driving a semi.
    One time I had a woman follow me into a business parking lot where she proceeded to scold me for holding her up and not pulling over to let her pass......but when she realized I was there to deliver to her business she scolded me for being late.

  6. #156
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kickstart View Post
    I suppose being on the road 10 hours a day has desensitized me a bit, but I consider someone being a "Richard" very different from genuine road rage. The funny thing is my ride home after a day on the road is such a relief because drivers are so much more patient, courteous, and respectful then when I'm driving a semi.
    One time I had a woman follow me into a business parking lot where she proceeded to scold me for holding her up and not pulling over to let her pass......but when she realized I was there to deliver to her business she scolded me for being late.
    Road Rage really probably doesn't happen that much... and I do understand that people are human and make mistakes... but aggressive driving and doing so at a potential risk to others is another thing altogether. I see it, I work to avoid it.

    The thing that gets me, is people know when they are being a "richard;" as I have mentioned before, it is amazing to watch how people straighten up in the presence of a police cruiser... people know how to drive... but just don't care... or rather are being selfish. "Mecentric," as you put it. Sad thing is, it really takes so little effort to be cooperative and to drive in a safer manner. And it tends to reduce the stress of driving (less rage). Even speeding has little reward... I notice quite often I arrive at some destination within a few seconds of the guy that had to blast through traffic, cut others off and failed to actually stop at some stop signs... seconds... not minutes... is it worth it?

  7. #157
    Senior Member work4bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by genec View Post
    When I drive it is either at or below the speed limit. I see all sorts of things. I see the impatience of many motorists.... not necessarily because I am driving slow, but because I am not trying to rush, I can observe... I see motorists "pushing and shoving;" not merging and being cooperative... what I see is a lot of close calls... situations where others have to avoid those drivers acting selfishly; those speeding and weaving, not stopping where they should while cutting off others... I see a lot of drivers doing risky things and just barely "getting away with it." Throw something "different" into that mix and there are poor reactions... and "different" can mean anything such as a slow moving construction vehicle (which is actually visible from a long way off, if you look and plan ahead and are driving at a reasonable speed to react to such things), to a cyclist, just moving along.

    What I observe is a lot of poor jerky interaction... not the smooth flow of drivers acting in a cooperative fashion acting according to the rules of the road... it is more like "the rules of the jungle..." get away with whatever you can and don't get caught.

    This is really exemplified when you see how drivers react in the presence of a police cruiser... suddenly everyone "plays nice." People know the rules, they know what they are supposed to do... but they selfishly choose not to do the right thing. The fact that there is such a difference, that we have to remind motorists to "watch for pedestrians when turning" are all indicators that in spite of knowing, drivers don't do the right thing.

    And we should put children out there on bicycles?
    I know what you're talking about; I observe the exact same thing. One thing I love to watch is how quickly cars come up to a stoplight/sign, but especially a stoplight, since it really doesn't matter how quick you get to it, you're still going to have to sit there until it changes, but still people speed up and stop

    I can't speak for children, but I've come to love my role in traffic for pissing off combative motorists. And I'm one of those cyclists that follow the law and know it well; I'm also what some would call a gutterbunny (or whatever it's called). Yet, I still aggravate a few motorists (you know, the A-holes) and I've learned to like that

    However, I also have a lot of motorists that are "in my corner", probably because of my non-combative way or riding, in general. I know this, because I'm always getting questions at stoplights...of how many miles I ride per day and so on. You ride enough and people start to take notice.
    "The aim of science is to make difficult things understandable in a simpler way; the aim of poetry is to state simple things in an incomprehensible way. The two are incompatible."

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  8. #158
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by work4bike View Post
    I know what you're talking about; I observe the exact same thing. One thing I love to watch is how quickly cars come up to a stoplight/sign, but especially a stoplight, since it really doesn't matter how quick you get to it, you're still going to have to sit there until it changes, but still people speed up and stop

    I can't speak for children, but I've come to love my role in traffic for pissing off combative motorists. And I'm one of those cyclists that follow the law and know it well; I'm also what some would call a gutterbunny (or whatever it's called). Yet, I still aggravate a few motorists (you know, the A-holes) and I've learned to like that

    However, I also have a lot of motorists that are "in my corner", probably because of my non-combative way or riding, in general. I know this, because I'm always getting questions at stoplights...of how many miles I ride per day and so on. You ride enough and people start to take notice.
    I don't do gutter bunny. I ride legal, I signal, I stop... and I maintain a level speed of about 17MPH. As to gutter bunny... there is a street that runs through my area that is pretty much the main boulevard... it runs the top of the mesa which dominates this area. Two lanes, 35MPH, cars parked all along the side for nearly the entire length of this road... there are a few exceptions, and there are a few areas where the road is 3 lanes wide. Bottom line, it is not a good idea to ride along the side of the parked cars... it can be quite difficult due to sun glare and window tinting to tell when a door is going to fling open or a car will pull out. I take the right lane. It is a 2 or 3 lane road... there is plenty of room for motorists to move over. Sometimes I can go up and down this road without any problems at all... sometimes it is "ahole day" and people don't want to move over into the other lane... just enough to give me room. Now remember I do 17MPH... often higher. The road is pretty flat. I often meet the same drivers at the next light... such is the average speed on the road... even though they zoom ahead... they also stop and wait.

    There are other cyclists... the kids, the old guy that rides with all his stuff and an American flag... the students... they ride about 8MPH, on the sidewalk. No doubt drivers think I should be there. No way, not at 17MPH. Just doesn't work. I am not alone... but I am not the only lane taker, there are a few of us.

    Gutter bunny style sort of works in some places... but not everywhere... and not a good idea if it forces you into door zones or the edge of the cliff.

  9. #159
    Senior Member work4bike's Avatar
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    Yes, gutter bunny riding isn't good in all places, especially door zones, torn up roads, road debris... I'm a gutter bunny, but not a purist; I'm no stranger to taking the lane and do so quite often, including coming to stopsigns/lights doing right turns, etc... and is one of the ways I endup pissing off the A-holes. They just don't get it.
    "The aim of science is to make difficult things understandable in a simpler way; the aim of poetry is to state simple things in an incomprehensible way. The two are incompatible."

    -- Paul Dirac

  10. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by genec View Post
    Road Rage really probably doesn't happen that much... and I do understand that people are human and make mistakes... but aggressive driving and doing so at a potential risk to others is another thing altogether.
    Aggressive driving is road rage. The motorist who passes to closely because they think a cyclist should ride on the sidewalk or because they are upset about a delay is threatening a cyclist with potential homicide. Motorists may not intend to kill or injure but they know very well that hitting a cyclist could kill them. Aggressive driving near vulnerable active transport is pure sociopathy and should be treated as a felony, not a moving violation. And this sociopathic aggression is not only directed at cyclists. I see motorists g.un it through an intersection even though a pedestrian is already in the crosswalk or adjacent traffic has stopped just about every day.
    Last edited by spare_wheel; 06-28-14 at 10:45 AM.
    This is why motorists hate us, and why I've given up riding on the road...You should be ashamed yourself, and you should be reviled by cyclists everywhere.

  11. #161
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
    Aggressive driving is road rage. The motorist who passes to closely because they think a cyclist should ride on the sidewalk or because they are upset about a delay is threatening a cyclist with potential homicide. Motorists may not intend to kill or injure but they know very well that hitting a cyclist could kill them. Aggressive driving near vulnerable active transport is pure sociopathy and should be treated as a felony, not a moving violation. And this sociopathic aggression is not only directed at cyclists. I see motorists g.un it through an intersection even though a pedestrian is already in the crosswalk or adjacent traffic has stopped just about every day.
    I can't really disagree with you... only that I take "Road Rage" to mean that back and forth one on one dispute between a couple of specific road users... vice a general acting like a "richard" to all road users. But you are right, when the attitude targets one specific group of road users... yeah, that is more than aggressive driving.

    And yes, either way it is indeed a form of "sociopathy."

  12. #162
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
    Aggressive driving is road rage. The motorist who passes to closely because they think a cyclist should ride on the sidewalk or because they are upset about a delay is threatening a cyclist with potential homicide. Motorists may not intend to kill or injure but they know very well that hitting a cyclist could kill them. Aggressive driving near vulnerable active transport is pure sociopathy and should be treated as a felony, not a moving violation. And this sociopathic aggression is not only directed at cyclists. I see motorists g.un it through an intersection even though a pedestrian is already in the crosswalk or adjacent traffic has stopped just about every day.
    I can't really disagree with you... only that I take "Road Rage" to mean that back and forth one on one dispute between a couple of specific road users... vice a general acting like a "richard" to all road users. But you are right, when the attitude targets one specific group of road users... yeah, that is more than aggressive driving.

    And yes, either way it is indeed a form of "sociopathy."

    And bringing it back around to the whole point of this thread...

    Since we know there are speed demons out there, and sociopaths and roads designed such that no matter how hard one tries, if you are on a bike, you are going to be perceived as a problem to other traffic... we need some sort of infrastructure for those reasons... not everywhere mind you... as there are plenty of circumstances where motorists and cyclists get along just fine... but for those other areas, we need something more than just "act like the driver of a vehicle..."

    And there certainly is no reason such cycling infrastructure can't be just as friendly to cyclists as the roads are to the average motorist... you know, signs, curbs, lights, etc, you know, anything else we now give to the average American driver.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jyl View Post
    You may want to check the facts for the particular public transportation system you are thinking of. Here in Portland, our municipal bus system (Trimet) has an annual budget of $473MM, of which $102MM is funded by passenger fares, and $371MM is subsidized by the government (2012 numbers). If the bus were free, then the government would have to come up with another $102MM, and probably a bit more since increased ridership drives some increased operating costs.

    Suppose we spent that $102MM on bike-related programs instead of making the bus free? Well, that would be like going to heaven as far as our bike budget is concerned. We have only about $1MM/year budget for all bike and pedestrian infrastructure projects. The actual spend ends up higher, because some specific projects get federal or state funding, and some bike improvements get done as part of roadway projects, but I think the total annual spending for all bike infrastructure is still less than $10MM/year.

    So, we can make the bus free, or we can do a decade of bike infrastructure inprovements in one year. Choice? Lesson: there is no "free".
    That's not how funding policy works though. Just because a government body decides to not spend 100m on one thing doesn't mean they are going to spend it on another thing.

    It could also be argued that a public transport spend helps everyone, rather than just those that use cycling infrastructure. Furthermore, the cost may be recouped long term through worker productivity gains, less need for road maintenance and other costs associated with the problems of private motor vehicle transport. Then there are the externalities of pollution, carbon and resource depletion to consider - I am as big a proponent of cycling infrastructure as anyone, but if it is indicated that making public transport free gets less people using private cars than cycling infrastructure, I support it first. It may be that if enough private cars leave the road we won't need so much infrastructure.

    I don't know of any studies that research the effects of free public transport, though they probably exist - most likely in Europe, though there is limited free public transport elsewhere, such as in Adelaide, and that would have been researched. I speculate that there are deep political and ideological reasons why free public transport doesn't come up as viable public policy more often, rather than because there are good socio-economic reasons against it.

  14. #164
    I STILL miss East Hill :) Rollfast's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by genec View Post
    I can't really disagree with you... only that I take "Road Rage" to mean that back and forth one on one dispute between a couple of specific road users... vice a general acting like a "richard" to all road users. But you are right, when the attitude targets one specific group of road users... yeah, that is more than aggressive driving.

    And yes, either way it is indeed a form of "sociopathy."

    And bringing it back around to the whole point of this thread...

    Since we know there are speed demons out there, and sociopaths and roads designed such that no matter how hard one tries, if you are on a bike, you are going to be perceived as a problem to other traffic... we need some sort of infrastructure for those reasons... not everywhere mind you... as there are plenty of circumstances where motorists and cyclists get along just fine... but for those other areas, we need something more than just "act like the driver of a vehicle..."

    And there certainly is no reason such cycling infrastructure can't be just as friendly to cyclists as the roads are to the average motorist... you know, signs, curbs, lights, etc, you know, anything else we now give to the average American driver.
    In that I agree to some agree as well as 'road rage' is not innately controllable with traffic devices or much else...not even medications, to be blunt. It's a personal situation. We cannot change such problems, only sanction or remove the bad actors.
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    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rollfast View Post
    In that I agree to some agree as well as 'road rage' is not innately controllable with traffic devices or much else...not even medications, to be blunt. It's a personal situation. We cannot change such problems, only sanction or remove the bad actors.
    The problem is that rarely happens... even multiple DUIs don't take people off the roads... the perception that "being able to drive is so vital to the individual" that judges and juries tend NOT to remove even the most heinous of "bad actors."

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    I STILL miss East Hill :) Rollfast's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by genec View Post
    The problem is that rarely happens... even multiple DUIs don't take people off the roads... the perception that "being able to drive is so vital to the individual" that judges and juries tend NOT to remove even the most heinous of "bad actors."
    I don't know about Sandy Eggo but here in the stix my Grandma rode the bus for 20 years...
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  17. #167
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rollfast View Post
    I don't know about Sandy Eggo but here in the stix my Grandma rode the bus for 20 years...
    Because her license was removed? Or did Grandma just like the bus?

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    I have a section of Richmond Parkway out here that is a fly over and I'd love to use it. But I know, and the planers knew, that a northerly wind by the bay would make this a problem. Things get removed from vehicles that are overloaded or loose. I see bicyclist ride this every so often and it's a commercial area. I'm sure in San Diego you get the some crud. Where do you draw the line between safe and gutter pancake kitten?
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