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Driver who killed cyclist charged with criminal vehicular homicide: cell phone use

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Driver who killed cyclist charged with criminal vehicular homicide: cell phone use

Old 07-12-14, 01:59 AM
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Originally Posted by dperreno
What struck me about this event was that the pickup driver didn't try and defend himself or deny anything. To the contrary, he clearly stated that he was looking at and listening to his phone instead of paying attention to the road. He is taking responsibility for what he did - and we see far to little of that today.
Guess I didn't read it that way. I read it more like: "Yeah, I was doing that. So what? That is normal behavior."

Not taking responsibility for an act that is bad so much as saying since it is the thing everyone is doing he's just going with the flow; blame society.
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Old 07-14-14, 04:21 PM
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The parallel with drinking and driving is disturbing, when it comes to personal responsibility and the level of impairment.

We (in the US) go about dealing with drunk driving exactly backwards, IMO. We should issue special drivers licenses that allow people to still drive, but not buy alcohol. This would be much easier, since the main enforcement becomes at the store/bar. They simply have to card everyone as a matter of course (this would help with underage drinking in a small way as well). I wish I could think of a similar way to do the same with phones. I don't think we have the tech to shut down a phone that in a car, but maybe it wouldn't be too hard to develop.

The reason for this is primarily that in the US (unlike more civilized countries... ) there are very few places were driving is optional (yes, I understand the irony of saying this on a biking forum, but bear with me). So most people still 'need' their vehicles for driving to work and day to day stuff. I don't like it, but that's sort of where we're stuck. So address the problem of drinking, and being distracted, but allow people to maintain their employment and continue to use their cars as needed (with a huge caveat on 'needed').

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Old 11-18-14, 10:42 PM
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Plea bargain: 360 days in jail over 3 years, four years supervised probation, then record discharged.
Driver on phone who killed Minn. bicyclist gets jail, can have case erased from record | Star Tribune
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Old 11-19-14, 12:12 AM
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Originally Posted by FanaticMN
Plea bargain: 360 days in jail over 3 years, four years supervised probation, then record discharged.
Driver on phone who killed Minn. bicyclist gets jail, can have case erased from record | Star Tribune
I hope he never forgets what he did. Regardless of how remorseful he is.
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Old 11-19-14, 08:49 AM
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Originally Posted by keyven
This is really sad - for the family and the children who will now grow up without a mother.

I do feel a little for the guy because he made a terrible mistake and I'm sure he will be burdened with guilt and be sufficiently punished for his crime. That he stopped immediately and did not hide his crime showed it was a mistake, one which should never have happened in the first place.
I don't "feel" for the guy at all. He should have kept it in his pocket. Period. This sympathy is why so many drivers go scott free for their poor driving practices... juries just sit there and think... "well I feel sorry for this guy... " and "there but for the grace of God..." bla bla bla. BS.

People need to be responsible for their actions while driving. There is NO EXCUSE for this sort of behaviour.

This is why I fully support laws that make drivers responsible for any collision with a vulnerable road user... similar to such laws in parts of Europe. This puts the weight back on motorists to pay attention to what the heck they are doing behind the wheel... not to treat driving as if one is on a rolling couch.
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Old 11-19-14, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by genec

This is why I fully support laws that make drivers responsible for any collision with a vulnerable road user... similar to such laws in parts of Europe. This puts the weight back on motorists to pay attention to what the heck they are doing behind the wheel... not to treat driving as if one is on a rolling couch.
I too would like to see liability, in a motor vehicle/vulnerable road user collision, automatically go toward motorists unless it could be proven otherwise, since it would change many motorist's driving habits rather quickly.
In looking at how a number of judicial and legislative systems, insurance firms, and the general public in the US view cyclists and pedestrians in general, I seriously doubt that any law of this nature would ever make it off the drawing board.
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Old 11-19-14, 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by FanaticMN
Plea bargain: 360 days in jail over 3 years, four years supervised probation, then record discharged.
Driver on phone who killed Minn. bicyclist gets jail, can have case erased from record | Star Tribune
It is worth noting that while it may be erased from his criminal/MV record, he still will be regarded as a felon for five years and his arrest record will follow him around for life.

What I don't quite understand is why everyone is going out of their way to try to keep him in the National Guard, who would usually toss out anyone convicted of a felony.
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Old 11-19-14, 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by dynodonn
I too would like to see liability, in a motor vehicle/vulnerable road user collision, automatically go toward motorists unless it could be proven otherwise, since it would change many motorist's driving habits rather quickly.
I wouldn't count on that. I think we should have presumed liability laws for vulnerable road users but I don't think they'll have much impact on fatalities.
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Old 11-19-14, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by dynodonn
I too would like to see liability, in a motor vehicle/vulnerable road user collision, automatically go toward motorists unless it could be proven otherwise, since it would change many motorist's driving habits rather quickly.
In looking at how a number of judicial and legislative systems, insurance firms, and the general public in the US view cyclists and pedestrians in general, I seriously doubt that any law of this nature would ever make it off the drawing board.
Sad but true. Our only real hope are the robot overlords that will seek to protect us in spite of ourselves. (yes, that was somewhat sarcastic... but it really hits home about how we treat each other as humans)
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Old 11-19-14, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by genec
Our only real hope are the robot overlords that will seek to protect us in spite of ourselves.
I hope I'm not on the road on a bike when SkyNet takes control over the driverless cars...
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Old 11-19-14, 02:46 PM
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I think insurance rates is probably a good one. Making cell phone use while driving a primary offense and a reported use would hike insurance rates $500/year for each occurrence, that might make a dent.
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Old 11-19-14, 05:34 PM
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Originally Posted by ItsJustMe
I think insurance rates is probably a good one. Making cell phone use while driving a primary offense and a reported use would hike insurance rates $500/year for each occurrence, that might make a dent.
A bonanza for the insurance companies, maybe they should get a cut of all traffic ticket dollars and court costs too!
Showering them with no cost, free money sounds good for those who own insurance company stock.
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Old 11-19-14, 06:12 PM
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You don't have to have Sherlock Holmes' powers of observation to notice how many motorists are looking at phone screens behind the wheels of their cars. And you don't have to possess Nostradamus-like prophetic powers to predict what the future might have in store for you if you cycle within reach of motor vehicles. Even if everyone driving complies with the 3-Foot rule, how long does it take a motor vehicle traveling at 50 mph to drift to the right 3.5 feet? Roughly 2 seconds. Ever seen a deer or a large K-9 hit-by-car at the side of the road? I don't want to go like that.

Something SHOULD be done about distracted drivers. But if we make laws prohibiting phone use in cars, the phones will just move from the top of the steering wheel (where there is a CHANCE the driver might notice something through the windshield) to hiding in the lap - making a bad situation worse. I really don't see any solution other than to limit my exposure to motor vehicle traffic while enjoying my bicycle. And I would certainly not expose my children to the danger.

There needs to be some SERIOUS studies and follow-up education with REAL numbers associated with the increased risk of phone us in cars. I know auto insurance companies are very interested in that data as it hits them in the pocket book (and they raise their rates to compensate). The problem as I see it is that most of the lawmakers yack on their phones behind the wheel. How do you get addicts to make laws against addicts? And how do you get soccer moms who routinely text behind the wheel to make the association to the added danger when not wrapped in a metal cocoon with 360° air bags? I think people who routinely text behind the wheel have less of a sense of how dangerous it is when they are exposed themselves.

Cycling near motor vehicles has always been a blood sport. Now the situation is just ridiculous.

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Old 11-19-14, 07:18 PM
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Given that the presumed % of motorists using cell phones while driving has increased significantly over the past several years, how do you explain a lack of evidence of a corresponding increase in the number of motor vehicle accidents from distracted driving or any other cause?
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Old 11-19-14, 08:42 PM
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Originally Posted by B. Carfree
The condition of bail, that the killer not use his phone while driving, is a bit much to take. How about he not be allowed to drive? He was already giving the chance to prove he was capable of doing the right thing while behind the wheel. He failed and an innocent person is dead because of his selfish behavior.
B. Carfree,

How do they plan on monitering his not using cell phone while driving? Are they going to have a cop ride with him everywhere he goes? Will he be pulled over periodicatlly to make sure that he isn’t using his cell phone? Just how do they plan on making sure that he isn’t going to be using his cell phone while driving?!?”

Even if he’s required to lock it up in the trunk, or in a locked box how are they going to make sure that he complies? And why wasn’t his license suspended? I mean if I am not mistaken, do they not take an officers *** while they investigate an officer involved shooting? Why not temporarily suspend a persons license at least until investigation is over?

I mean after all driving is a privilage NOT a right, so along with the implied consent to a blood alchol test why not temporarily suspending a person’s license when they they’ve been involved in a crash of any sort?
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Old 11-19-14, 08:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Feldman
Police should be empowered to sieze and destroy not every cell phone that they see a driver using, but any cell phone in a car that is within reach of a driver. Cops should be equipped with a modified version of Vise Grip Locking C Clamp
Originally Posted by Feldman
#20 , refitted with diamond-treaded, meat tenderizer type jaw pads. That'd crush any cell phone in existence with pretty minimal hand effort I should think.


Feldman,

WTF, I hope that you are not serious. As that is about the most asinine thing that I have heard, how would you feel if you were in a car and the driver hit someone while on their cell phone and when the police stopped the car they destroyed your phone?

Yes, I agree with the police being able to seize the drivers cell phone to see if they were using it at the time of the crash, I agree suspending a drivers license pending a full investigation. But I cannot agree with the police being able to destroy ALL cell phones within reach of the driver.
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Old 11-19-14, 09:14 PM
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Originally Posted by HawkOwl
Give you two some slack because from your online statements you aren’t in North America. Here most people like this one don’t feel guilt for what they have done. They are upset because they got caught. “Gee, I’ve been doing this forever. If that cyclist and her kids hadn’t been there none of this would have happened. I mean, who tows kids behind a bike along a street anyway?”

And, no we don’t want any cop seizing property or denying freedom to anyone except under very specific and limited rules. That is one of the reasons we are here instead of in the old countries where individual people not of the ruling class had essentially no rights. We want due process that involves a third party. Even then we operate under the innocent until proven guilty rule; or we are supposed to. As the Innocence Project is discovering there are many actually innocent people who are punished for crimes they did not commit.
HawkOwl,

I have to agree with what you just said. I don’t think that anyone really wants to live in that kind of a society.

And like you I hope that he was just kidding when he said that the cops should be able to destroy any cell phone within reach of the driver.
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Old 11-19-14, 09:21 PM
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I wouldn't trade due process of law for the illusion of a bit more safety
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Old 11-19-14, 09:27 PM
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
Given that the presumed % of motorists using cell phones while driving has increased significantly over the past several years, how do you explain a lack of evidence of a corresponding increase in the number of motor vehicle accidents from distracted driving or any other cause?
Incomplete data? Or maybe worry for nothing? Whatever it is, I would REALLY like to know the truth.

What I see with my own two eyes in the city grid are cars that actually DON'T GO when they should be going more than anything. This actually helps me on my bicycle. What else I see are lots of very low speed bumping incidents at traffic signals as a result of someone engrossed in their phone as their foot relaxes off the brake pedal. At least one a month and sometimes more. Before cell phones I never witnessed such a thing in 30+ years of city cycling. But what I am observing is not really hurting anyone so likely never gets reported.

On the open road, state highways, and Interstate highways ESPECIALLY the straight, long stretches (like the one in the OP) I see motorists drifting all over the place. Mostly inside their lane just barely. Or driving erratic speeds on the Interstate with no traffic to speak of. I have leap-frogged many motorists who drove under the limit while yacking, and over the limit between calls. Maybe they are safer on the phone? In the old days I would have suspected alcohol. These days I blame phones and corroborate such visually. It's hard to visually tell if the guy/girl in the next car is drunk. It's easy to see the phone behavior.

I agree that the jury is still out on the numbers. It just seems like common sense that if phone use is similar to drunk driving for reaction times that the numbers should go up. At least the drunks are looking through the windshield. Or maybe the war on drunk drivers is offsetting the simultaneous increase in phone use casualties?

Do you care to hazard a guess? I really have no clue.

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Old 11-19-14, 09:27 PM
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Originally Posted by CrankyOne
Is the shoulder paved or gravel? And what difference does having a shoulder make with regard to a segregated path?


Cranky,

Why do you always think that the answer is segregated infrastructure? Besides my usual question of where is the real estate suppose to come from, where is the funding suppose to come from to build this to build this segregated infrastructure?

You do know don’t you that too many times that money that has been earmarked for bicycle projects have been redirected to other more “pressing” projects.

So as I have asked before where is the real estate suppose to come from for segregated infrastructure and as I just asked in this post where is the money suppose to come from to build it? And why do you always think that segregated infrastructure is the answer?
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Old 11-19-14, 10:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Feldman
I’m responding in sadder-but-wiser mode. So, tell me why a cell phone within reach of a driver should be any different from an open bottle of liquor. IMHO, all of the distractions you mention are an extreme example of someone swinging their automotive fist and having no concern for whatever nose gets in the way. What could possibly be a difference between two items (bottle of booze, cell phone) that have a similar ability to reduce the ability of the driver to control their vehicle. Call me an idiot, I don’t care, but I’ve ridden bikes and driven both for over forty years and can tell you driver behavior has changed. The law needs to treat drivers as less than human--and piss on the Constitution if need be.
Feldman,

Wow, who the F pissed in your Wheaties?!? Piss on the Constitution? Son, those are fighting words to all of the Active Duty Soldiers and Veterans on this site. We didn’t enlist to have the Constitution trampled on.

Why stop at destroying cell phones, why not give the cops the power to put a bullet into an engine block, or shot the driver? Destroying all cell phones “within” reach of the driver is going too far.

What if those cell phones are turned off? What if those cell phones do not have cell service? Should they be destroyed as well? What about tablets and laptops, or GPS’, will they also be destroyed? Where do you draw the line?

We have due process in this country for a reason, and no one can just destroy private property whenever they feel like it.

And again, I have to say, saying “Piss on the Constitution” is fighting words to Active Duty Soliders and the Veterans on this site. And is NOT what we signed up for, we signed up to PROTECT the Constitution.

Also as you’ve been asked, just what kind of a police state do you want to live in where the police have the power to destroy private property without due process?
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Old 11-19-14, 10:15 PM
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Originally Posted by dperreno
What struck me about this event was that the pickup driver didn’t try and defend himself or deny anything. To the contrary, he clearly stated that he was looking at and listening to his phone instead of paying attention to the road. He is taking responsibility for what he did - and we see far to little of that today.


dperreno,

I agree, at least this driver is owning up to what he was doing at the time, hell he even stayed on the scene and rendered aid to the mother. Sadly, it was fruitless, but he did do the right thing and stayed on the scene and attempted to render aid.

In too many of these cases we see the driver not only denying any wrong doing, but fleeing the scene.

At least this driver not only admitted to what he was doing, but he stayed on the scene, and didn’t try and flee the scene.
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Old 11-19-14, 10:36 PM
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Originally Posted by JoeyBike
Incomplete data? Or maybe worry for nothing? Whatever it is, I would REALLY like to know the truth.
Originally Posted by JoeyBike

What I see with my own two eyes in the city grid are cars that actually DON’T GO when they should be going more than anything. This actually helps me on my bicycle. What else I see are lots of very low speed bumping incidents at traffic signals as a result of someone engrossed in their phone as their foot relaxes off the brake pedal. At least one a month and sometimes more. Before cell phones I never witnessed such a thing in 30+ years of city cycling. But what I am observing is not really hurting anyone so likely never gets reported.

On the open road, state highways, and Interstate highways ESPECIALLY the straight, long stretches (like the one in the OP) I see motorists drifting all over the place. Mostly inside their lane just barely. Or driving erratic speeds on the Interstate with no traffic to speak of. I have leap-frogged many motorists who drove under the limit while yacking, and over the limit between calls. Maybe they are safer on the phone? In the old days I would have suspected alcohol. These days I blame phones and corroborate such visually. It’s hard to visually tell if the guy/girl in the next car is drunk. It’s easy to see the phone behavior.

I agree that the jury is still out on the numbers. It just seems like common sense that if phone use is similar to drunk driving for reaction times that the numbers should go up. At least the drunks are looking through the windshield. Or maybe the war on drunk drivers is offsetting the simultaneous increase in phone use casualties?

Do you care to hazard a guess? I really have no clue.


Joey,

The problem though is that there are plenty of cars out there that are equipped with bluetooth that sync up to one’s phone as soon as they turn the car on. There are also plenty of people who use a bluetooth headset. So how do you know how many people are using a cell phone while driving?

They could be looking at something else, you know. You’re just guessing that they’re using a cell phone.
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Old 11-19-14, 10:41 PM
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Originally Posted by JoeyBike
Incomplete data? Or maybe worry for nothing? Whatever it is, I would REALLY like to know the truth.
[SKIP]
Do you care to hazard a guess? I really have no clue.
I think that the people carrying on about the greatly increased risk to bicyclists from accidents caused by cell phone wielding motorists also have no clue about the truth, facts, or statistics on the issue, nor on measuring risk; and could care less as they "know" the truth must be whatever they think/say it is.
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Old 11-20-14, 07:20 AM
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
Given that the presumed % of motorists using cell phones while driving has increased significantly over the past several years, how do you explain a lack of evidence of a corresponding increase in the number of motor vehicle accidents from distracted driving or any other cause?
What statistics do you have that there is not an increase in automotive collisions? Most of the crash data is based on motorist deaths, but if the cars themselves are more protective of the people inside (airbags), and people are driving less, and the cell phone collisions do not result in motorist deaths, what statistics are available to show any trend change?

Do you for instance have access to insurance company collision statistics, or repair company statistics? I don't, so I can't make the judgement that there are not more collisions.

We can simply observe motorists... and any even cursory observation will show that a substantial number of motorists are using cell phones to some extent.
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