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  1. #51
    Senior Member rydabent's Avatar
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    FB

    Proof? You harp on my dislike for pot use and Colo. Have you read current news events that there are far more young people that are now homeless in Colo. since pot became legal?? How about a thread that compares pot heads to an increase in CF bikes? Or maybe a trifecta---a pot head from New York on a CF bike!!!!!

    BTW if you dont like my opinions, just put me on ignore. Other wise have a nice day.

  2. #52
    yak
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    Zircon Encrusted Tweezer yak's Avatar
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    This is how Santa Cruz tested some of its frames

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by yugyug View Post
    The problem is not so much that the weave of the carbon fibre gets cut, but that its bonded with plastic, can't be separated easily and then there is polymer length of the plastic. With thermosetting plastics like epoxy there is no easy way to restore structural strength resulting from the initial polymerisation.

    Its called downcycling, its not really recycling, and its only economically feasible when dealing with concentrated waste sources. Companies currently don't bother with widely distributed consumer goods (see my last post). Regardless, its not sustainable in theory because the its only a one stop interruption in its journey towards the dump - once its used in this way there are no more options for reuse or recycle (or very limited anyway). Conversely, aluminium can be endlessly recycled with due care. Steel is even better in that it can be recycled, but is so durable that, with care, it may never need to be.

    downcycling is not recycling? well i guess that plastic bench i sat on in the park blocks was just a figment of my imagination.



    and i personally have recycled multiple pieces of carbon at my lbs (i cut several bars down). it's my understanding that both specialized and trek have graciously decided to recycle carbon fiber from any source as a service to the cycling community.

    The process of recycling carbon fiber consists of chopping frames into smaller sections, then burning off the epoxy that holds the fibers together in an oxygen-free environment. This results in shorter fibers with the same properties as the original material, which can then be used in a variety of products.
    Last edited by spare_wheel; 07-29-14 at 02:39 PM.
    This is why motorists hate us, and why I've given up riding on the road...You should be ashamed yourself, and you should be reviled by cyclists everywhere.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
    downcycling is not recycling? well i guess that plastic bench i sat on in the park blocks was just a figment of my imagination.



    and i personally have recycled multiple pieces of carbon at my lbs (i cut several bars down). it's my understanding that trek has graciously decided to recycle carbon fiber from any source as a service to the cycling community.
    Does it really matter if CF bicycles are recyclable? They represent a statistically irrelevant volume, its not harmful, and has little if any beneficial post consumer use. It seems to be mostly an excuse for those who are looking for reasons to not like them.
    My brother has a high end CF bike, I ride steel, they both have advantages and disadvantages, the important thing is we have chosen what fits our wants and needs best.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by kickstart View Post
    Does it really matter if CF bicycles are recyclable? They represent a statistically irrelevant volume, its not harmful, and has little if any beneficial post consumer use.
    Boeing has begun using recycled carbon fiber in non-structural components (e.g. panels/furniture/containers). There is definitely demand for cheap and light weight non-structural cf.
    This is why motorists hate us, and why I've given up riding on the road...You should be ashamed yourself, and you should be reviled by cyclists everywhere.

  6. #56
    Senior Member CharleyGnarly's Avatar
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    Yak in post #52
    Bingo! I was going to reference that video.
    Was interesting. Looks like steel will bend, bend, bend, then collapse.
    Aluminum will bend, bend, crack/snap.
    CF takes a bunch of pressure, then when it does go it is catastrophic.
    I have ridden and raced steel and aluminum BMX bikes. Never broke steel, but did break aluminum. Could have been a design flaw, but knew a few people that broke aluminum, and fewer that broke steel (usually at a weld.)
    CF on the other hand, I have never even ridden. I think that the average joe would have a tough time breaking one unless it sustained a decent nick or something. And if that happened...look out. That's where the problem lies in situations like TDF. In one of those pile ups there may be some minor damage done that may be ok for a bit, but then fails totally later.
    Last edited by CharleyGnarly; 07-29-14 at 02:52 PM. Reason: Forgot to reference previous post
    "I have no objection to appeal. I even favor abolition of the death penalty,provided that there is a certainty of punishment, whatever that punishment may be, for in the uncertainty of punishment following crime lies the weakness of our halting justice."
    Isaac Charles Parker, The "Hanging Judge," 1889.

  7. #57
    Senior Member pvillemasher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CharleyGnarly View Post
    Yak in post #52
    Bingo! I was going to reference that video.
    Then there's also this one.

    Steel Shaft Vs Carbon Fiber Shaft - YouTube

  8. #58
    Senior Member Keith99's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pvillemasher View Post
    Professional road racing? Reported by whom?
    I watched a lot of the TDF this year (50%?) and I saw one broken bike (Contador's). There were a lot of crashes, and most times the guy got back on and rode away. Never did I see anything that resembled "shattered" or anything similar.
    I watched over half. Same for me, except I think there were possibly more broken bikes, but it is hard to tell. One wheel bent means replace on the road as getting a bent wheel out is not time effective.

    Nothing close to shattered.
    Perish any man who suspects that these men either did or suffered anything unseemly.

  9. #59
    Senior Member Pibber's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rebel1916 View Post
    Technically, carbon doesn't explode. It asplodes.
    Durrr, I forgot to translate that to 41. Stupid stupid me!

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by kickstart View Post
    Does it really matter if CF bicycles are recyclable? They represent a statistically irrelevant volume, its not harmful, and has little if any beneficial post consumer use. It seems to be mostly an excuse for those who are looking for reasons to not like them.
    My brother has a high end CF bike, I ride steel, they both have advantages and disadvantages, the important thing is we have chosen what fits our wants and needs best.
    If someone refuses to buy a CF bike because they believe it harms the environment, why should you doubt their sincerity? Every person's ecological choices are insignificant in the big picture. That's not an excuse for doing nothing.
    A ride on a bike is not a walk in the park

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
    downcycling is not recycling?
    No, it doesn't restore the original form or properties of the material. Compare to metals or glass which can be re-melted into a liquid and re-poured into the same original moulds if desired.


    and i personally have recycled multiple pieces of carbon at my lbs (i cut several bars down).
    Thats reuse, not recycling.

    I know that may sound pedantic, but greater awareness of the differences between such things as reuse, repair and recycling improves knowledge of the products we buy (and make).
    Last edited by yugyug; 07-29-14 at 10:16 PM.

  12. #62
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    I don't believe any plastic food containers are ever turned back into food grade plastics. Polyester fleece seems to be the primary example of what used pop bottles get turned into. Still better than just ending up in a landfill.

    I guess that's where old fashion metal and glass containers remain superior. Mixing colored and clear glass was a problem when you wanted to create clear glass again. Recent advances in computerized sorting uses jets of air to separate out any colored pieces so they don't have to rely on strict segregation of clear glass from recycled sources. Interesting video here: Video: How A Used Bottle Becomes A New Bottle : Planet Money : NPR

  13. #63
    Senior Member shipwreck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rydabent View Post
    FB

    Proof? You harp on my dislike for pot use and Colo. Have you read current news events that there are far more young people that are now homeless in Colo. since pot became legal?? How about a thread that compares pot heads to an increase in CF bikes? Or maybe a trifecta---a pot head from New York on a CF bike!!!!!

    BTW if you dont like my opinions, just put me on ignore. Other wise have a nice day.
    See, its the way you present things that make you to entertaining to put on ignore. Hyperbolic reactionary fear mongering, generally baseless, but still rather engaging. No offense.

    "there are far more young people that are now homeless in Colo. since pot became legal" The way you put it, infers that scads of fine young Coloradians, previously simply bursting with potential, have been rendered so helpless against the sweet siren call of the legal daemon weed, that they done spent all the rent money on zig zags and a quarter of Rocky Mountain High, so have to now spend the nights and days panhandling and terrorizing tax paying citizens.
    Totally unlike before legalization, when the streets of Denver were clear of any of that longhaired unwashed nonsense.

    Probably there are several deadbeats from your hometown that are now farther away from your lawn, due to the fact that they decided to be useless human beings in Boulder or Co. Springs. You should be happy! I doubt that they were a boon to Lincoln before they left.

    And on topic, if someone wants to buy carbon bikes, good on them. After it catastrophically fails from being ridden by some middle aged guy on the sunday no drop ride into a homeless kid stoned on newly legal Marijaywahna standing in the bike lane, it can be cross cycled into ultralight homeless shelters, ready to be emergency airdropped into whatever new state sells its soul by legalizing a drug everyone has fairly easy access to anyway.

  14. #64
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    I have no idea how this thread got so derailed, but I have no doubt in my mind that if everyone smoked more pot there would be less supply and demand for carbon fibre bikes.

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by gecho View Post
    I don't believe any plastic food containers are ever turned back into food grade plastics. Polyester fleece seems to be the primary example of what used pop bottles get turned into. Still better than just ending up in a landfill.
    exactly. and a large percentage of recycled glass is used as a filler, aggregate, or abrasive agent for a variety of construction and manufacturing processes.
    This is why motorists hate us, and why I've given up riding on the road...You should be ashamed yourself, and you should be reviled by cyclists everywhere.

  16. #66
    Senior Member rydabent's Avatar
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    While I thing CF bikes are over priced and over rated, the tangent about recycling them is laughable. The ultra tiny amount of material from a CF bike in a land fill is like a fly fart in a hurricane. Besides they for the most part do not degrade, therefor they do no harm to the enviroment.

  17. #67
    Nobody mconlonx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rydabent View Post
    FYI for those here, there are two or three people that like to rag me for my opinions. Since my opinions quite often do not agree with their opinion, they burn up their keyboards on personal attacks rather than giving logical reasons why their position is better....
    Probably I'm one of those two or three or twenty people...

    You don't give logical reasons why your position is better, why do you expect the same from others? There's a difference between a personal attack and people refuting and challenging your opinions.

    Quote Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
    I understand that you don't care about other's opinions including (especially) mine, and I respect that. My problem isn't your opinions, it's that you keep harping on the same themes without any facts to back them up. Whether it's helmets, and the risk of head injury, the failure rate of CF structures, or MJ use and driving in Colorado, state your opinion ---AS OPINION--- or support it with some facts, but once you've said it a few times stop hammering away at it.
    This.

    Quote Originally Posted by rydabent View Post
    Proof? You harp on my dislike for pot use and Colo. Have you read current news events that there are far more young people that are now homeless in Colo. since pot became legal??
    ...and here, you definitively prove FB's point.
    I know next to nothing. I am frequently wrong.

  18. #68
    Nobody mconlonx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
    Boeing has begun using recycled carbon fiber in non-structural components (e.g. panels/furniture/containers). There is definitely demand for cheap and light weight non-structural cf.
    Thing is, as far as reported in the 2010 carbon recycling source referenced earlier, this is all manufacturing-sourced recycling, not post consumer waste recycling.

    It would be like Trek recycling their CF bike production cutaways and castoffs as computer bar mounts or water bottle cages. Not accepting CF frames back into the production flow as post consumer recycling.

    Good that they are doing it, great that more CF recycling processes are in development, but still an industry in its infancy, a far cry from being able to leave your broken CF frame or component out in the recycling bin by the side of the road...
    I know next to nothing. I am frequently wrong.

  19. #69
    Senior Member Agent Cooper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pvillemasher View Post
    Professional road racing? Reported by whom?
    I watched a lot of the TDF this year (50%?) and I saw one broken bike (Contador's). There were a lot of crashes, and most times the guy got back on and rode away. Never did I see anything that resembled "shattered" or anything similar.
    Have to agree here. I watched a good bit of the Tour this year as well. It seemed to me there were more falls and crashes than usual, maybe due to the bad weather. (?)

    But I didn't see any bikes breaking apart.
    The owls are not what they seem...

  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by mconlonx View Post
    Good that they are doing it, great that more CF recycling processes are in development, but still an industry in its infancy, a far cry from being able to leave your broken CF frame or component out in the recycling bin by the side of the road...
    i agree. i think manufacturing-sourced recycling is the biggest issue to resolve.
    This is why motorists hate us, and why I've given up riding on the road...You should be ashamed yourself, and you should be reviled by cyclists everywhere.

  21. #71
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    One more data point to add to the ecological discussion is that CF bikes actually sequester carbon and apparently for a long, long time. I don't know where that carbon comes from but if it came from the atmosphere in the form of living plant matter, it could be a net gain ecologically.
    A ride on a bike is not a walk in the park

  22. #72
    BF Avatar Zombie Hunter Jseis's Avatar
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    Nice to know that F1 drivers are regularly testing CF's limits to keep you'all safe.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Amerika, Land of the Very Brief.

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jseis View Post
    Nice to know that F1 drivers are regularly testing CF's limits to keep you'all safe.
    2007 in Montreal - 300 kph, Kubica was taken to hospital with a "mild" concussion and sprained ankle - released the next day.
    (They don't regularly test carbon fiber that way btw.)

    My crabon fared far better there, plodding along an order of magnitude slower, 100 meters further along the circuit at turn 10:


    -mr. bill
    Last edited by mr_bill; 08-01-14 at 12:10 PM.
    Don't blame me, I'm from Massachusetts.

  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coal Buster View Post
    One more data point to add to the ecological discussion is that CF bikes actually sequester carbon and apparently for a long, long time. I don't know where that carbon comes from but if it came from the atmosphere in the form of living plant matter, it could be a net gain ecologically.
    LCA shows that carbon generally uses less energy and releases less GHG than aluminum and titanium. when it comes to steel vs crabon...it depends. a number of startups are working on commercial-scale production of carbon fiber from sustainable plant matter.
    This is why motorists hate us, and why I've given up riding on the road...You should be ashamed yourself, and you should be reviled by cyclists everywhere.

  25. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by rebel1916 View Post
    Technically, carbon doesn't explode. It asplodes.
    I do that whenever I eat at Taco Bell.

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