Cycling and bicycle discussion forums. 
   Click here to join our community Log in to access your Control Panel  


Go Back   > >

Advocacy & Safety Cyclists should expect and demand safe accommodation on every public road, just as do all other users. Discuss your bicycle advocacy and safety concerns here.

User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 08-10-14, 07:45 PM   #126
spare_wheel
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: NA
Bikes: NA
Posts: 4,281
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by kickstart View Post
Also scratches, chips, and dings that would be nothing more than cosmetic on metal can continue to degrade in composites if not addressed.
this is a massive exaggeration. my crabon bikes are covered with scratches, chips, and dings and all of these are in the clear coat or surface weave.

Last edited by spare_wheel; 08-10-14 at 07:58 PM.
spare_wheel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-14, 09:16 PM   #127
FBinNY 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter
Posts: 29,386
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 70 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
this is a massive exaggeration. my crabon bikes are covered with scratches, chips, and dings and all of these are in the clear coat or surface weave.
And of course, steel bikes never rust where the paint has been scratched through.
__________________
FB
Chain-L site

An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.

“Never argue with an idiot. He will only bring you down to his level and beat you with experience.”, George Carlin

“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN

WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FBinNY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-14, 08:45 AM   #128
kickstart 
Senior Member
 
kickstart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Kent Wa.
Bikes: 2005 Gazelle Golfo, 1935 Raleigh Sport, 1970 Robin Hood sport, 1974 Schwinn Continental, 1984 Ross MTB/porteur, 2013 Flying Piegon path racer, 2014 Gazelle Toer Populair T8
Posts: 4,717
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
this is a massive exaggeration. my crabon bikes are covered with scratches, chips, and dings and all of these are in the clear coat or surface weave.
Metals and composites are different materials with different strenghs, weaknesses, and characteristics, I don't see why understanding and recognizing the differences would be an exaggeration. If there are no differences, why not just use the cheapest materials?
kickstart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-14, 10:29 AM   #129
kickstart 
Senior Member
 
kickstart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Kent Wa.
Bikes: 2005 Gazelle Golfo, 1935 Raleigh Sport, 1970 Robin Hood sport, 1974 Schwinn Continental, 1984 Ross MTB/porteur, 2013 Flying Piegon path racer, 2014 Gazelle Toer Populair T8
Posts: 4,717
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
And of course, steel bikes never rust where the paint has been scratched through.
Yes they do, but considering this is the safety sub forum, I question the wisdom of refuting the nonsense of the OP in a way that gives the impression that composites can be treated with the same abuse and neglect as metals.
kickstart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-14, 10:38 AM   #130
FBinNY 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter
Posts: 29,386
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 70 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by kickstart View Post
Yes they do, but considering this is the safety sub forum, I question the wisdom of refuting the nonsense of the OP in a way that gives the impression that composites can be treated with the same abuse and neglect as metals.
Sorry, I refuse to use a tongue in cheek emoticon (if one even exists) and figured the intent was obvious.

But I think (agree?) that this entire thread is nonsense based on nonsense, so I just put a stick in and stir once in a while to see what comes up from the bottom.
__________________
FB
Chain-L site

An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.

“Never argue with an idiot. He will only bring you down to his level and beat you with experience.”, George Carlin

“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN

WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FBinNY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-14, 11:56 AM   #131
kickstart 
Senior Member
 
kickstart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Kent Wa.
Bikes: 2005 Gazelle Golfo, 1935 Raleigh Sport, 1970 Robin Hood sport, 1974 Schwinn Continental, 1984 Ross MTB/porteur, 2013 Flying Piegon path racer, 2014 Gazelle Toer Populair T8
Posts: 4,717
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
Sorry, I refuse to use a tongue in cheek emoticon (if one even exists) and figured the intent was obvious.

But I think (agree?) that this entire thread is nonsense based on nonsense, so I just put a stick in and stir once in a while to see what comes up from the bottom.
Right over my head, no need to apologize.

I agree the thread is nonsense as presented, but it may still be useful in that it may get folks to learn more about their composite bike than their salesman chose to tell them. It could save someone from a preventable injury.
kickstart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-14, 05:00 PM   #132
spare_wheel
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: NA
Bikes: NA
Posts: 4,281
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by kickstart View Post
Yes they do, but considering this is the safety sub forum, I question the wisdom of refuting the nonsense of the OP in a way that gives the impression that composites can be treated with the same abuse and neglect as metals.
a valid point. i definitely believe a carbon bike that has had a significant crash should always be inspected by a professional.
spare_wheel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-14, 05:42 PM   #133
FBinNY 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter
Posts: 29,386
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 70 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
a valid point. i definitely believe a carbon bike that has had a significant crash should always be inspected by a professional.
And how many professionals are there capable of doing a proper analysis?.
__________________
FB
Chain-L site

An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.

“Never argue with an idiot. He will only bring you down to his level and beat you with experience.”, George Carlin

“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN

WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FBinNY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-14, 07:30 PM   #134
spare_wheel
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: NA
Bikes: NA
Posts: 4,281
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
>And how many professionals are there capable of doing a proper analysis?.

More than you'd think, FBinNY. For example, in my neck of the woods:

Carbon Fiber Repair | Ruckus Composites
Spyder Composites | Carbon Fiber Bike Repair


In your neck of the woods:

Testimonials | Brooklyn Carbon Bicycle Repair
About :Carbon Phoenix Repairs

etc.
spare_wheel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-14, 07:45 PM   #135
FBinNY 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter
Posts: 29,386
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 70 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
>And how many professionals are there capable of doing a proper analysis?.

More than you'd think, .
I think you might have missed my point. While there are a number of places capable of repairing a carbon frame with visible damage. There are very few capable of assessing the safety of a crashed frame that has no visible damage. There's no debate about visible damage, the concerns voiced against carbon are related to invisible damage.
__________________
FB
Chain-L site

An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.

“Never argue with an idiot. He will only bring you down to his level and beat you with experience.”, George Carlin

“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN

WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FBinNY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-14, 11:27 AM   #136
squirtdad
Senior Member
 
squirtdad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: San Jose (Willow Glen) Ca
Bikes: '89 Miyata 1400, '82 nishiski (current utilty/commuter project)
Posts: 4,075
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 19 Post(s)
Another concern related to long term safety of carbon frames is impact of aging.

From looking around there is a level of concern from "what are you talking about, it is no big deal" to "ticking time bomb of old carbon frames" (that is a quote

Who knows where the truth is, but the point is that it is an unknown and is probably highly variable due to specific materials, build process, design, how and how and where any one bike is stored and cared for.

so the real question is how to evaluate an older bike?

ymmv but fpersonally the only way I will buy a carbon bike is with a warranty....... (not likely to happen as a prefer the look of classic steel (and don't get me started on the uglyness that is threadless stems)
__________________
'82 Nishiski commuter/utility
'83 Torpado Super Strada ... cafe commuter
'89 Miyata 1400
Soma rush Fixie
06 Haro x3 (son's bmx)
Electra cruiser (wife's bike)
squirtdad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-14, 12:55 PM   #137
spare_wheel
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: NA
Bikes: NA
Posts: 4,281
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
the concerns voiced against carbon are related to invisible damage.
Anecdote. I should also mention that the only sudden failures I've experienced have been with metal frames...but this is also an anecdote.

And let me quote:

Quote:
With over 26 years of experience inspecting and building composite structures, our Level II and III certified technicians have the capability to detect and identify most unseen impact damage by using various NDT methods. By using Ultrasonic Inspection and Radiography (x-ray), we have developed specific propietary techniques to detect the smallest inconsistency within the structure giving us the confidence that the damaged area will be completely repaired. As Lennard Zinn said; “why tempt fate”.

Last edited by spare_wheel; 08-12-14 at 01:01 PM.
spare_wheel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-14, 12:57 PM   #138
spare_wheel
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: NA
Bikes: NA
Posts: 4,281
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by squirtdad View Post
Another concern related to long term safety of carbon frames is impact of aging.
Link please.
spare_wheel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-14, 01:08 PM   #139
spare_wheel
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: NA
Bikes: NA
Posts: 4,281
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by squirtdad View Post
so the real question is how to evaluate an older bike?
I've tried to buy older carbon bikes but I've always been outbid. Personally, I'd have no problem riding a used carbon frame without obvious damage.
spare_wheel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-14, 02:44 PM   #140
kickstart 
Senior Member
 
kickstart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Kent Wa.
Bikes: 2005 Gazelle Golfo, 1935 Raleigh Sport, 1970 Robin Hood sport, 1974 Schwinn Continental, 1984 Ross MTB/porteur, 2013 Flying Piegon path racer, 2014 Gazelle Toer Populair T8
Posts: 4,717
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
Link please.
I can't provide any links, but from my limited experience in working with composites it can be a legitimate concern depending on many factors. I wouldn't be overly concerned unless there are obvious signs of abuser or neglect.
My favorite bike is my 1935 Raleigh sport, its obviously had a hard life but I haven't the slightest doubt about its structural integraty, I don't think I would trust an 80 year old composite bike, but as I won't be around to find out I won't worry about it.
kickstart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-14, 08:56 AM   #141
rydabent
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
rydabent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Lincoln Ne
Bikes: RANS Stratus TerraTrike Cruiser
Posts: 5,624
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 73 Post(s)
kick start

Good point. There are many examples of metal bikes back before 1900. Kinda makes you wonder what todays fantastic plastic bikes will look like in 100 years.
rydabent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-14, 10:04 AM   #142
kickstart 
Senior Member
 
kickstart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Kent Wa.
Bikes: 2005 Gazelle Golfo, 1935 Raleigh Sport, 1970 Robin Hood sport, 1974 Schwinn Continental, 1984 Ross MTB/porteur, 2013 Flying Piegon path racer, 2014 Gazelle Toer Populair T8
Posts: 4,717
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by rydabent View Post
kick start

Good point. There are many examples of metal bikes back before 1900. Kinda makes you wonder what todays fantastic plastic bikes will look like in 100 years.
It's important to remember those old bikes were built to last a lifetime, today's composite bikes are built to take advantage of the latest materials. Some plastics such as Bakelite have stood the test of time, but that's not a priority with today's builders, and bicycles seem to be subject to the same planned obsolescence as many other products.
kickstart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-14, 10:12 AM   #143
howsteepisit
Senior Member
 
howsteepisit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Eugene, OR
Bikes: Mecian
Posts: 3,634
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
Can anyone provide any substantive evidence of carbon fiber bicycles aging in any dangerous manner? Or Aluminum, of titaniaum, Or Bamboo?

My sense is its more unjustified handwringing over anything new.
howsteepisit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-14, 11:33 AM   #144
meanwhile
Senior Member
 
meanwhile's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Bikes:
Posts: 4,033
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pibber View Post
This one time, an older woman called my SR a "crackanfail", an allusion, I imagine, to the supposed weakness of aluminum. .
Nope. It's an allusion to C'dales diasterous period of making bikes with frames that did crack and fail - they used very large diameter tubing with super thin walls. Alu GTs and Kleins were alu too, but no one picked on them because they were crack n' failing.
meanwhile is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-14, 12:52 PM   #145
kickstart 
Senior Member
 
kickstart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Kent Wa.
Bikes: 2005 Gazelle Golfo, 1935 Raleigh Sport, 1970 Robin Hood sport, 1974 Schwinn Continental, 1984 Ross MTB/porteur, 2013 Flying Piegon path racer, 2014 Gazelle Toer Populair T8
Posts: 4,717
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by howsteepisit View Post
Can anyone provide any substantive evidence of carbon fiber bicycles aging in any dangerous manner? Or Aluminum, of titaniaum, Or Bamboo?

My sense is its more unjustified handwringing over anything new.
Composites aren't new and they do degrade with age, that's a fact. How today's composite bikes will age is merely speculation, and its unlikely many of us will be around when it is a problem.
All materials "age", the real question is if they will be structurally sound for their intend use and lifespan.
I don't see the harm in being aware of the differences and possible issues.
kickstart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-14, 01:00 PM   #146
howsteepisit
Senior Member
 
howsteepisit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Eugene, OR
Bikes: Mecian
Posts: 3,634
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
If its a fact that composites degrade with age, then there must be an engineering analysis of how much, how fast, and to what degree that decomposition occurs. If you know of such study then post a link if available, otherwise I suspect you are posting internet facts, which may or may not have a basis in reality.

Any just to be clear, I do not own a CF bike, nor likely will I. I prefer the look and ride of classic level top tube steel bikes. But that preference does not lead me to speculate that CF bike are going to catastrophically fail at some unknown time in the future due to unqantified aging of the construction material, based on facts gleaned fro unspecified internet sources.
howsteepisit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-14, 05:46 PM   #147
spare_wheel
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: NA
Bikes: NA
Posts: 4,281
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by howsteepisit View Post
If its a fact that composites degrade with age, then there must be an engineering analysis of how much, how fast, and to what degree that decomposition occurs.
Thanks for asking again and again. I'm interested in any response, if one emerges.
spare_wheel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-14, 07:42 PM   #148
yugyug
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: antipodes
Bikes:
Posts: 142
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by howsteepisit View Post
If its a fact that composites degrade with age, then there must be an engineering analysis of how much, how fast, and to what degree that decomposition occurs. If you know of such study then post a link if available, otherwise I suspect you are posting internet facts, which may or may not have a basis in reality.
Quote:
Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
Thanks for asking again and again. I'm interested in any response, if one emerges.
These would exist for sure. The accessible ones would be university-based material testing non-specific to cycling, but the trick would be knowing the precise carbon and epoxy used in the frames in which you are interested in order to find the right study. Manufacturers don't really realise that information as far as I know. The bigger manufacturers like Trek and Giant probably do their own inhouse or out-sourced materials testing specific to cycling stresses, but these would be secret no doubt. Just like so many other industries, they would not have any interest in making, or releasing any information concerning, a products ability to last any longer than their certification standard or warranted lifespan.

However, I am guessing there might testing for certification standards like there are in furniture. Basically if a chair needs to be approved for mass sale in a lot of places a sample has to be provided to an organisation, like a university, who puts the chair on a machine which simulates somebody sitting down and getting up a thousand times or more until it breaks, or doesn't break. They do it for cars too, they must do this for bicycles and I'd be interested in finding out more about it. It doesn't necessarily give any information as to how a material will degrade over time (decomposition from use + weather + ?), but it would indicate which frames are generally tougher. Potentially the information as to how well a frame does in the test is publicly available. Or not.
yugyug is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-14, 10:26 PM   #149
kickstart 
Senior Member
 
kickstart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Kent Wa.
Bikes: 2005 Gazelle Golfo, 1935 Raleigh Sport, 1970 Robin Hood sport, 1974 Schwinn Continental, 1984 Ross MTB/porteur, 2013 Flying Piegon path racer, 2014 Gazelle Toer Populair T8
Posts: 4,717
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by howsteepisit View Post
If its a fact that composites degrade with age, then there must be an engineering analysis of how much, how fast, and to what degree that decomposition occurs. If you know of such study then post a link if available, otherwise I suspect you are posting internet facts, which may or may not have a basis in reality.

Any just to be clear, I do not own a CF bike, nor likely will I. I prefer the look and ride of classic level top tube steel bikes. But that preference does not lead me to speculate that CF bike are going to catastrophically fail at some unknown time in the future due to unqantified aging of the construction material, based on facts gleaned fro unspecified internet sources.
I'm not an engineer, and I haven't researched the subject other than some how-to and material safety information, its mostly what I picked up first hand maintaining composite boats while in the coast guard, working for viking yachts building composite boats, building a wood/epoxy composite sea kayak for my own gratification, and some very limited exposure to the aerospace industry. What I can say for sure, a lot of time thought and effort is put into protecting composites from the effects of UV exposure, temperature extremes, moisture, impact, and vibration depending on the materials and how they are used.

I have a very healthy respect for the usefulness of composites, including its use for bicycles, but also know that composites, like all materials, have limitations. I just don't understand why recognizing the limitations of a good, useful material, whatever it may be, should be taken as a condemnation of it.

Seems to me those who condemn CF bikes or say they are without fault are trying to sell something.
kickstart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-14, 10:39 PM   #150
howsteepisit
Senior Member
 
howsteepisit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Eugene, OR
Bikes: Mecian
Posts: 3,634
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
Because you are not able to quantify or even substantiate the limitations on CF bicycle frames. Yet you said that in fact the composites degrade with age, without knowing if any degradation was substantive or even measurable. This puts you in the category of an internet expert....blowing wind. I did a few hours research today and did find a Masters Thesis that attempted to quantify the amount of degradation in general, seems that in that case it was limited to 6% under accelerated aging conditions of 750 hours. Additional aging up to 1500 hours did not result in additional decrease in strength. However this was not specific to cycle construction material. Take that for what its worth, I din't even bother to keep the link.

I don't believe a 6% decrease in tubing strength would be significant to a CF bicycle frame. I also reviewed an article by Lenard Zinn in an old velo news where he queried CF fork manufacturers about the service life of CF forks, they seemed to generally say no, but their responses were mostly concerned with vibration cycles not UV weakening. And immersion/condensation testing of composites which are used for marine materials don'e seem to apply to a bicycle that is not ridden underwater.
howsteepisit is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:18 AM.