Helmets cramp my style
#4101
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Zeuser = Troll?
I think I get it now, Zeuser is a troll of the highest order. He's found a niche to exploit - like going onto a pet lovers site and demanding that animal testing be allowed.
Hats off to you Zeuser, you and your bizarre boomerang bike sig.
Hats off to you Zeuser, you and your bizarre boomerang bike sig.
#4102
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WoW! 165 pages!
I imagine most of you will hate me, but I learned to ride a bike without a helmet, so that's the way I roll.
I learned to ride a skateboard without a helmet, so that's the way I roll.
Rollerskating, Skiing, Snowboarding, Rockclimbing, Jogging... I do it all helmet-free. I do don a helmet when I go mountain biking in the backcountry, and since Vancouver, WA instituted its all-ages bike helmet law I try to have one on when I go to town.
I forgot I had to go into town today and neglected to bring my helmet, luckily I had no police run-ins.
I guess I could agree with folks who hate me cuz I don't wear a helmet if I had healthcare paid for by all your dollars, but I don't! So leave me alone!
At least I can still legally ride my skateboard downtown without a brain bucket!!!!!
I imagine most of you will hate me, but I learned to ride a bike without a helmet, so that's the way I roll.
I learned to ride a skateboard without a helmet, so that's the way I roll.
Rollerskating, Skiing, Snowboarding, Rockclimbing, Jogging... I do it all helmet-free. I do don a helmet when I go mountain biking in the backcountry, and since Vancouver, WA instituted its all-ages bike helmet law I try to have one on when I go to town.
I forgot I had to go into town today and neglected to bring my helmet, luckily I had no police run-ins.
I guess I could agree with folks who hate me cuz I don't wear a helmet if I had healthcare paid for by all your dollars, but I don't! So leave me alone!
At least I can still legally ride my skateboard downtown without a brain bucket!!!!!
#4103
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WoW! 165 pages!
I imagine most of you will hate me, but I learned to ride a bike without a helmet, so that's the way I roll...
...I guess I could agree with folks who hate me cuz I don't wear a helmet if I had healthcare paid for by all your dollars, but I don't! So leave me alone!
At least I can still legally ride my skateboard downtown without a brain bucket!!!!!
I imagine most of you will hate me, but I learned to ride a bike without a helmet, so that's the way I roll...
...I guess I could agree with folks who hate me cuz I don't wear a helmet if I had healthcare paid for by all your dollars, but I don't! So leave me alone!
At least I can still legally ride my skateboard downtown without a brain bucket!!!!!
Concerning skateboarding, maybe you ought to reconsider the helmet (especially if you're bicycling near a skateboarder ):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foezk_hZEn0
I see at least 5 head-hits for the skateboarders, and one for the bicyclist at the end.
John
Last edited by John C. Ratliff; 09-28-08 at 07:38 PM. Reason: add to the sentence
#4104
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A lot of falls, to be sure, but i saw a whole bunch of shoulder rolls and heads not hitting the ground.
of course you couldn't see every fall clearly, but out of about a couple of dozen falls, about the only head hitting the ground i saw was the kid on the bike with the helmet doing a face plant
pretty good example of how one can fall and not have an injury to the head
of course you couldn't see every fall clearly, but out of about a couple of dozen falls, about the only head hitting the ground i saw was the kid on the bike with the helmet doing a face plant
pretty good example of how one can fall and not have an injury to the head
Last edited by closetbiker; 09-29-08 at 12:29 PM.
#4105
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yes. I and also an excellent example how you can hurt your face wearing a bicycle helmet.
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Look again, and use the "stop" button on the player. You'll see the head hitting the ground on seven situations:
--24-25 seconds in.
--26 seconds in.
--31 seconds in.
--40 seconds in.
--45 seconds in.
--51 seconds in.
--1:15 second in (the final bicyclist).
Of the bicyclists, only the last one had head contact. Neither of the pushed cyclists had head contact. But that last one hit not only the head, but also the forehead of the helmet, from what I can see.
The skaters had six of the head strikes, an those times shown. They happen very quickly, and most of the skaters did not hit their heads. But enough of them did that there were probably some real headaches coming out of those spills.
John
--24-25 seconds in.
--26 seconds in.
--31 seconds in.
--40 seconds in.
--45 seconds in.
--51 seconds in.
--1:15 second in (the final bicyclist).
Of the bicyclists, only the last one had head contact. Neither of the pushed cyclists had head contact. But that last one hit not only the head, but also the forehead of the helmet, from what I can see.
The skaters had six of the head strikes, an those times shown. They happen very quickly, and most of the skaters did not hit their heads. But enough of them did that there were probably some real headaches coming out of those spills.
John
#4107
Senior Member
Look again, and use the "stop" button on the player. You'll see the head hitting the ground on seven situations:
--24-25 seconds in.
--26 seconds in.
--31 seconds in.
--40 seconds in.
--45 seconds in.
--51 seconds in.
--1:15 second in (the final bicyclist).
Of the bicyclists, only the last one had head contact. Neither of the pushed cyclists had head contact. But that last one hit not only the head, but also the forehead of the helmet, from what I can see.
The skaters had six of the head strikes, an those times shown. They happen very quickly, and most of the skaters did not hit their heads. But enough of them did that there were probably some real headaches coming out of those spills.
John
--24-25 seconds in.
--26 seconds in.
--31 seconds in.
--40 seconds in.
--45 seconds in.
--51 seconds in.
--1:15 second in (the final bicyclist).
Of the bicyclists, only the last one had head contact. Neither of the pushed cyclists had head contact. But that last one hit not only the head, but also the forehead of the helmet, from what I can see.
The skaters had six of the head strikes, an those times shown. They happen very quickly, and most of the skaters did not hit their heads. But enough of them did that there were probably some real headaches coming out of those spills.
John
Some of those are not the clearest of frames, but it looked like the shoulder hit and head snapped to the side but not on the ground to me. Most necks are shorter in length than the shoulder is wide, so the head can only snap so far.
I'd imagine if they were wearing helmets, the heads would be much larger and probably would make contact with the ground.
The face plant was a plant on the face and looked like the helmet was on the back of the head on contact
*I watched again this time going back and forth to get as clear a view I can get and I'll say it looks like
:25 looks like he may have hit his head,
:26 definite shoulder roll
:31 nope. his face was to the ground but didn't make contact
:40 there was grass obscuring the head
:45 maybe
:51 maybe
1:15 face first
so that's maybe 3 hits out of about 25 falls, and those 3 possible hits were to the side of the head, an area you have said the helmet is lacking in coverage and protection, but what does this video say about things anyway?
I could say, in the vast number of falls, most people manage to avoid injury to the head, and when they do injure their head, it most often is a minor injury that does nothing more than teach someone a lesson to behave more carefully next time in order to avoid being hit again.
Even if they all hit their heads and had nothing but dirt on their faces would that be so bad? We all bump our heads doing stuff anyways and rub our heads, learn and move on. We could all wrap ourselves in bubble wrap, but we don't do that, do we? We learn from the small mistakes so we don't make big ones. If we don't learn from the small bumps, the big one will take us down.
Surely everybody's risk factors for falls are as different as each individual. A tape like this only goes to have me realize how infrequently I've fallen on a bike and how I've never hit my head in a fall from my bike, but have hit it doing other things. I haven't fallen from my bike half as much in my entire life as I've watched these guys fall on this tape in 77 seconds.
People do hurt their heads on bikes, but the question is, do they (or any individual) do so any more than anyone else.
If you examine hospital records, you'll see there is no greater representation of head injuries to cyclists over that of the general population.
camilo had a good response to a post made by Szczuldo on the recently lockeded thread, "is the debate over helmets over?"
Szczuldo posted, "there is no excuse that comes remotely close to a real reason why you should not wear a helmet"
to which camilo responded, "No excuse? How about: bicycling is not dangerous and therefore, while helmets might make it safer, the degree of danger is so small that they are not necessary in any meaningful way?"
This point has been brought up before by others on the this thread, but it seems context and perspective doesn't mean very much to some people.
I'm glad you just recently posted that people should ride and get exercise, even without a helmet, rather than not ride and become couch potatoes, because it show some perspective that's lacking in looking at this video. Sure a helmet could help prevent some injuries, but the benefits of cycling even without a helmet far exceed those rare risks that could be prevented the same way we prevent head injury in all other activities we take part in when we don't wear helmets. By using safe behavior.
Last edited by closetbiker; 09-30-08 at 09:43 AM.
#4108
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And what was your point? That the mayor travels with an entourage every day so they also travelled with her this day? Why wasn't the entourage on bicycles too? You can carry on a bicycle.
In defense of my mocking your grammar, it's tough to stay serious in an argument when someone seems to constantly resort to name calling in an apparent attempt to bolster their argument.
In defense of my mocking your grammar, it's tough to stay serious in an argument when someone seems to constantly resort to name calling in an apparent attempt to bolster their argument.
Are you stupid, blind or both?
Just for you, here's a complete repost of what I posted in message #4065.
Now... pay close attention to the underlined part.
Hazel McCallion, Mayor of Mississauga
Ms. McCallion set the standard for car-free day by donning a helmet and riding a simple blue bicycle marked with a licence plate reading “Mayor 1” to work. The 87-year-old Mayor said the seven-kilometre trip, from her home in Streetsville to the Mississauga Civic Centre, was “thoroughly enjoyable.” “The weather was perfect. The group that joined me was wonderful. It was really a very, very pleasant experience,” she said after the trek. She was joined by her son and his wife, Councillor Pat Mullin and several members of Mississauga’s cycling committee. By car, the trip usually takes 15 minutes. By bike, through rush hour with a Peel Regional Police escort, it took 30 minutes.
Ms. McCallion set the standard for car-free day by donning a helmet and riding a simple blue bicycle marked with a licence plate reading “Mayor 1” to work. The 87-year-old Mayor said the seven-kilometre trip, from her home in Streetsville to the Mississauga Civic Centre, was “thoroughly enjoyable.” “The weather was perfect. The group that joined me was wonderful. It was really a very, very pleasant experience,” she said after the trek. She was joined by her son and his wife, Councillor Pat Mullin and several members of Mississauga’s cycling committee. By car, the trip usually takes 15 minutes. By bike, through rush hour with a Peel Regional Police escort, it took 30 minutes.
PS: This post was to counter Closet's pics of "smart" people not wearing helmets. If you know "Hurricane" Hazel, you'll agree she's one smart lady and you'll understand why she gets elected unopposed.
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Wait...so if Darwin killed off all of the non-helmet wearers, the future would be populated by idiots gulled into mindless consumerism...because they would be the descendants of helmet wearers? I'm not unsympathetic to this interpretation, especially wrt helmets and mindless consumerism. Although I have to wonder if that was the point you actually wanted to make.
Did you miss that in school?
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In any case, you're being a hypocrite; you're just a troll!
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A lot of falls, to be sure, but i saw a whole bunch of shoulder rolls and heads not hitting the ground.
of course you couldn't see every fall clearly, but out of about a couple of dozen falls, about the only head hitting the ground i saw was the kid on the bike with the helmet doing a face plant
pretty good example of how one can fall and not have an injury to the head
of course you couldn't see every fall clearly, but out of about a couple of dozen falls, about the only head hitting the ground i saw was the kid on the bike with the helmet doing a face plant
pretty good example of how one can fall and not have an injury to the head
Of course, but helmet or not those who shoulder rolled would still come out the same way. But for those who did in fact hit their heads, the helmet probably helped.
That has always been the point here.
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Give it up Zeuser! 4chan awaits you. Begone.
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My bike helmet saved me from a vicious widow maker tree branch when I was limbing my huge trees. Saw stars after that one almost knocked me off my ladder. Yep all I had to wear was a bike helmet. Otherwise they just make me feel safe. I have fallen off my bike at 1mph or less a couple times and skinned my knee. Helmet just fine. However on a motorcycle my helmet save my life when i was hit by a car and I superman-ed into the curb. So with all the drivers scaring me daily on my commute, I will remember my motorbike accident and keep wearing the helmet, even if it makes my hair look liek a waffle and my head sweaty.
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in a country where they have areas for cyclists set aside and there isn't really a threat this post makes sense.
imho: you can't predict entropy. probability and odds of accidents happening don't necessarily correct for human error.
#4118
Senior Member
It's pretty amazing that helmet promotion has entered Denmark.
This video is just one of the responses to a campaign that's attempting to get the Danes to wear helmets.
This video is just one of the responses to a campaign that's attempting to get the Danes to wear helmets.
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It seems that you think Danes do not have bike accidents. Take a look here:
John
1: Ugeskr Laeger. 2007 Jan 15;169(3):232-5.Links
[Fatal bicycle accidents involving right turning heavy goods vehicles--forensic pathological findings][Article in Danish]
Munkholm J, Thomsen AH, Lynnerup N.
Københavns Universitet, Retsmedicinsk Institut. munkholm@dadlnet.dk
INTRODUCTION: The objective of this study was to describe the forensic pathological findings in autopsies of cyclists involved in fatal accidents with right-turning, heavy goods vehicles (HGV). DESIGN AND SETTINGS: Retrospective analysis based on medico-legal autopsy reports concerning persons involved in fatal traffic accidents in Denmark between 1996 and 2005. Cyclists and moped-riders hit by a right-turning HGV were included. Forensic pathological findings, blood alcohol levels, place of death as well as several traffic parameters were registered. RESULTS: Twenty-five autopsies were included. In 20 cases (80%), death had occurred instantly. Also in 20 cases (80%), injuries in at least three body regions were found at autopsy. There were no cases with injuries in only one body region. There were fewest cases with head/neck injuries. In 16 cases, injuries in one or more body regions were so severe as to be described as complete crushing (conquassatio). CONCLUSION: In traffic accidents involving cyclists and right-turning HGVs, the cyclist is more often run-over rather than merely hit by the HGV. This mechanism of injury is crucial for both the severity and the distribution of injuries. This is reflected in this study by the number of multiple body regions involved, the number of complete crushing injuries and by the number of cases where death had occurred instantly. Future efforts should focus on the prevention of these accidents.
PMID: 17234101 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
[Fatal bicycle accidents involving right turning heavy goods vehicles--forensic pathological findings][Article in Danish]
Munkholm J, Thomsen AH, Lynnerup N.
Københavns Universitet, Retsmedicinsk Institut. munkholm@dadlnet.dk
INTRODUCTION: The objective of this study was to describe the forensic pathological findings in autopsies of cyclists involved in fatal accidents with right-turning, heavy goods vehicles (HGV). DESIGN AND SETTINGS: Retrospective analysis based on medico-legal autopsy reports concerning persons involved in fatal traffic accidents in Denmark between 1996 and 2005. Cyclists and moped-riders hit by a right-turning HGV were included. Forensic pathological findings, blood alcohol levels, place of death as well as several traffic parameters were registered. RESULTS: Twenty-five autopsies were included. In 20 cases (80%), death had occurred instantly. Also in 20 cases (80%), injuries in at least three body regions were found at autopsy. There were no cases with injuries in only one body region. There were fewest cases with head/neck injuries. In 16 cases, injuries in one or more body regions were so severe as to be described as complete crushing (conquassatio). CONCLUSION: In traffic accidents involving cyclists and right-turning HGVs, the cyclist is more often run-over rather than merely hit by the HGV. This mechanism of injury is crucial for both the severity and the distribution of injuries. This is reflected in this study by the number of multiple body regions involved, the number of complete crushing injuries and by the number of cases where death had occurred instantly. Future efforts should focus on the prevention of these accidents.
PMID: 17234101 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
1: Accid Anal Prev. 2003 Nov;35(6):885-91. Links
Looked-but-failed-to-see-errors in traffic.Herslund MB, Jørgensen NO.
Centre for Traffic and Transport, Technical University of Denmark, Building 115, DK-2800 Lyngby, Denmark. mh@ctt.dtu.dk
Danish studies of traffic accidents at priority intersections have shown a particular type of accidents. In these accidents a car driver supposed to give way has collided with a bicycle rider on the priority road. Often the involved car drivers have maintained that they did not see the bicycle until immediately before the collision even though the bicycle must have been clearly visible. Similar types of accidents have been the subject of studies elsewhere. In literature they are labelled "looked-but-failed-to-see", because it seems clear that in many cases the car drivers have actually been looking in the direction where the other parties were but have not seen (i.e. perceived the presence of) the other road user. This paper describes two studies approaching this problem. One study is based on 10 self-reported near accidents. It does show that "looked-but-failed-to-see" events do occur, especially for well experienced drivers. The other study based on Gap Acceptance shows that the car driver acceptance of gaps towards cyclists depends on whether or not another car is present. Hypotheses for driver perception and for accident countermeasures are discussed.
PMID: 12971922 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Looked-but-failed-to-see-errors in traffic.Herslund MB, Jørgensen NO.
Centre for Traffic and Transport, Technical University of Denmark, Building 115, DK-2800 Lyngby, Denmark. mh@ctt.dtu.dk
Danish studies of traffic accidents at priority intersections have shown a particular type of accidents. In these accidents a car driver supposed to give way has collided with a bicycle rider on the priority road. Often the involved car drivers have maintained that they did not see the bicycle until immediately before the collision even though the bicycle must have been clearly visible. Similar types of accidents have been the subject of studies elsewhere. In literature they are labelled "looked-but-failed-to-see", because it seems clear that in many cases the car drivers have actually been looking in the direction where the other parties were but have not seen (i.e. perceived the presence of) the other road user. This paper describes two studies approaching this problem. One study is based on 10 self-reported near accidents. It does show that "looked-but-failed-to-see" events do occur, especially for well experienced drivers. The other study based on Gap Acceptance shows that the car driver acceptance of gaps towards cyclists depends on whether or not another car is present. Hypotheses for driver perception and for accident countermeasures are discussed.
PMID: 12971922 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
1: Ugeskr Laeger. 2002 Oct 28;164(44):5115-9.Links
[The importance of the use of bicycle helmets for head injuries among injured bicyclists aged 0-15 years][Article in Danish]
Larsen LB.
Odense Universitetshospital, UlykkesAnalyseGruppen.
INTRODUCTION: We wanted to examine the preventative effect of bicycle helmets on head injuries in youngsters aged 0-15 years treated after road traffic accidents (RTAs). The data were based on hospital records. MATERIAL AND METHODS: We conducted a case-control study of all youngsters aged 0-15 years, who were treated at Odense University Hospital after RTAs on bicycles during the period 1993 to 1999. Bicyclists with injuries localised to the head or brain comprised the case group. The controls were all bicyclists with injuries to other body regions. RESULTS: Altogether 3285 persons were entered. Of these, 409 had injuries to the head or brain and 2876 had injuries to other body regions. Regression analysis showed that the use of helmets decreased the risk of head injury by a factor of 0.4 and the risk of concussion by a factor of 0.6. Only nine bicyclists with more severe brain injury were included in the study. Registered motor vehicles as the counterpart increased the risk of head injury in a given accident and no effect of the helmets could be shown in such accidents. DISCUSSION: Helmets offer bicyclists aged 0-15 years protection against head injury. The effect could not be shown in accidents involving a motor vehicle as the counterpart.
PMID: 12448154 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
[The importance of the use of bicycle helmets for head injuries among injured bicyclists aged 0-15 years][Article in Danish]
Larsen LB.
Odense Universitetshospital, UlykkesAnalyseGruppen.
INTRODUCTION: We wanted to examine the preventative effect of bicycle helmets on head injuries in youngsters aged 0-15 years treated after road traffic accidents (RTAs). The data were based on hospital records. MATERIAL AND METHODS: We conducted a case-control study of all youngsters aged 0-15 years, who were treated at Odense University Hospital after RTAs on bicycles during the period 1993 to 1999. Bicyclists with injuries localised to the head or brain comprised the case group. The controls were all bicyclists with injuries to other body regions. RESULTS: Altogether 3285 persons were entered. Of these, 409 had injuries to the head or brain and 2876 had injuries to other body regions. Regression analysis showed that the use of helmets decreased the risk of head injury by a factor of 0.4 and the risk of concussion by a factor of 0.6. Only nine bicyclists with more severe brain injury were included in the study. Registered motor vehicles as the counterpart increased the risk of head injury in a given accident and no effect of the helmets could be shown in such accidents. DISCUSSION: Helmets offer bicyclists aged 0-15 years protection against head injury. The effect could not be shown in accidents involving a motor vehicle as the counterpart.
PMID: 12448154 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
1: Ugeskr Laeger. 1991 Oct 14;153(42):2947-9.Links
[Cranial injuries among children in the county of Ringkøbing. 2. Analysis of accidents][Article in Danish]
Hansen TB, Pless S, Gravers M.
Holstebro Centralsygehus, ortopaedkirurgisk afdeling.
Questionnaires were sent concerning all of the patients aged 0-15 years who were admitted to the Ringkøbing County Hospitals during the period 1.1.1982 to 31.8.1989 with head injuries. The object of the questionnaires was to elucidate the circumstances of the accident which resulted in hospitalization. Questionnaires concerning 988 patients (67.5%) were returned. Definite accumulation of the accidents was observed during the period 12.00-18.00 with 55.2% of all the accidents. The majority of the accidents (72.3%) occurred out-of-doors and the majority of these on transport areas. Bicycle accidents were most common, most frequently in children over the age of four years. Where younger children were concerned, accidents in the home were commonest. Accidents in playgrounds and during sports constituted only 13% of the total material. A relatively great proportion of the children (42.9%) were under supervision, usually from their own family, when the accident occurred. On the basis of this investigation, the authors recommend that possible prophylactic measures in the County of Ringkøbing should be directed towards bicycle accidents among the older children and accidents in the homes where smaller children are concerned.
PMID: 1949320 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
[Cranial injuries among children in the county of Ringkøbing. 2. Analysis of accidents][Article in Danish]
Hansen TB, Pless S, Gravers M.
Holstebro Centralsygehus, ortopaedkirurgisk afdeling.
Questionnaires were sent concerning all of the patients aged 0-15 years who were admitted to the Ringkøbing County Hospitals during the period 1.1.1982 to 31.8.1989 with head injuries. The object of the questionnaires was to elucidate the circumstances of the accident which resulted in hospitalization. Questionnaires concerning 988 patients (67.5%) were returned. Definite accumulation of the accidents was observed during the period 12.00-18.00 with 55.2% of all the accidents. The majority of the accidents (72.3%) occurred out-of-doors and the majority of these on transport areas. Bicycle accidents were most common, most frequently in children over the age of four years. Where younger children were concerned, accidents in the home were commonest. Accidents in playgrounds and during sports constituted only 13% of the total material. A relatively great proportion of the children (42.9%) were under supervision, usually from their own family, when the accident occurred. On the basis of this investigation, the authors recommend that possible prophylactic measures in the County of Ringkøbing should be directed towards bicycle accidents among the older children and accidents in the homes where smaller children are concerned.
PMID: 1949320 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Last edited by John C. Ratliff; 10-02-08 at 10:32 AM. Reason: add a study
#4121
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Using this same logic, I'd also bet you'd try to get an inmate on death row to stop smoking out of concern for his health.
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John
Last edited by John C. Ratliff; 10-02-08 at 03:01 PM. Reason: comment on "not not surprising"
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John
PS--My Mom died of lung cancer and emphysema from smoking at age 76, so I have very little positive to say about that activity. My Grandmother died of natural causes in her 90's, and she did not smoke. So if you are a smoker, my heart-felt recommendation is that you quit, now!
Last edited by John C. Ratliff; 10-02-08 at 02:57 PM. Reason: add the PS
#4124
Senior Member
nice side step John, but you've avoided the analogy in dealing with the prisoner.
You're missing the big picture and showing no sense of relativity, context or perspective.
You're missing the big picture and showing no sense of relativity, context or perspective.