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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by genec View Post
    I can't help but wonder if people driving cars consider themselves "motorists."
    How about driver?
    This is why motorists hate us, and why I've given up riding on the road...You should be ashamed yourself, and you should be reviled by cyclists everywhere.

  2. #52
    Senior Member LucF's Avatar
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    FWIW, looks like the conclusions in this Canadian report on cycling fatalities contradict the OP's report:

    There are two important factors in cycling fatalities which currently get insufficient attention - cyclist behaviour and night lighting equipment. The vast majority of cycling accidents involve cyclist error or inappropriate practices.

  3. #53
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
    I'm very grateful that you have the courage to address the inconsistencies of a critique without addressing the subject of the critique.
    I and others address what we choose to address, not what you decide should be discussed. In this case, I chose to discuss/respond to a previous poster about the various definitions of overtaking in relation to bicycling accidents. Too darn bad that you expect me to respond to your telepathic requests for opinions on subjects of interest to you.

  4. #54
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
    How about driver?
    There were a few posters on A&S in the past who empasized that they considered themselves and others who rode like them as bicycle drivers, because they operated their bicycles IAW motor vehicle rules and requirements.
    One poster was killed in a traffic accident, cause was never made clear as best as I could tell. Another otherwise well spoken poster no longer posts here, others may be in the woodwork somewhere.

  5. #55
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    No doubt others have suggested that LC VC Taking the lane
    Has absolutely ZERO protective effect against "distracted drivers"

    Cyclist need protected routes more than ever. Of the 628 cycling-related fatalities studied, most were caused by careless or inattentive drivers—something dedicated cycling lanes would help alleviate.

    The above cut from the article makes it clear-cyclists are at risk from distracted(TEXTING) drivers.

    TAKING THE LANE- won't protect you from distracted drivers.
    It will increase your risk because cars -guided and not so guided-spend the most time cutting out a swath more or less in the middle of the lane.

    They spend MUCH less time far RIGHT.
    LCing might earn you fewer "close shaves" from alert but jerky drivers
    But close shaves don't hurt you.
    Probability favors FRAP when you factor in distracted drivers.
    LCing assumes drivers are alert attentive - most are
    BUT the ones that HIT YOU- AREN'T!
    This article should put paid to LANE CONTROLLING-
    It won't of course because LCers will claim--that since the started LCing "They have fewer close shaves"
    They probably are being truthful-but they are missing the point.
    LCers have ZERO evidence that it makes them safer.
    This study certainly indicates that plopped in the middle of the lane-isn't the lowest risk positioning.

  6. #56
    Cycle Dallas MMACH 5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phoebeisis View Post
    ...
    Cyclist need protected routes more than ever. Of the 628 cycling-related fatalities studied, most were caused by careless or inattentive drivers—something dedicated cycling lanes would help alleviate.
    ...
    Can you site a source for the bolded claim?
    That's gonna leave a mark.

  7. #57
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    I am not advocating this as policy, I'm just putting out there what has worked for me. As it happens, this week my wife is writing an op ed for our tandem club newsletter on what she has "seen", heard and learned over the last eight years of riding with me on our two tandems. She is blind and her perspective is desired by the rest of the club (50 teams) because none of them could ever consider riding a bicycle on the road at any other time than early Saturday or Sunday morning and then only in a group and only with the constant vigilance of the point teams and rear guard teams calling "car back!" or "car up!" whenever danger looms.

    When my now wife and I met I had been bike commuting from Brooklyn, NY to NY, NY five days a week. 14 miles of very urban cycling on a constant basis. I've never hit or been hit by a car neither before riding as the captain of a tandem team or solo as a commuter. If a texting driver were to blow a stop sign or fail to yield they might nail an entitled VC'er but not me because I ride like a bicycle, NOT a motorcycle. It works for me. We moved to Portland two years after meeting, and for all but two months of the last six years in Oregon have been spent in the Hillsboro suburb of Portland. Now we are in what is called close-in South-East, and on a daily basis as I captain DW to her office 2 miles away and ride back light, I see countless thousands of other cyclists riding much like I do: in the door zone, to the right of the traffic stream, but ready to control the vehicle lane when and if necessary for short periods.

    Some of you need a slap up the side of the head and round-trip airfare to Portland, OR so you can see first-hand the benefits of a non-confrontational approach to vehicular cycling. FWIW.

    H

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by MMACH 5 View Post
    Can you site a source for the bolded claim?
    Other than the fact that it was a statement included in the page linked in the OP...

    In the 628 fatalities, police reportedly cited motorists 285 times. But authorities took legal action in only 135 of the cases resulting in just 77 sentences.
    Source: League of American Bicyclists "Every Bicyclist Counts"

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by wphamilton View Post
    Why is it controversial? Fatalities are more likely from collisions with high speed vehicles. We have greater exposure to high speed vehicles from behind than from in front or from the sides. Therefore more fatalities can be expected from collisions from the rear. It's no surprise.
    That a "study" confirms your prejudices is never a good reason for believing it is correct.
    Last edited by meanwhile; 08-13-14 at 12:29 PM.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leisesturm View Post
    When my now wife and I met I had been bike commuting from Brooklyn, NY to NY, NY five days a week. 14 miles of very urban cycling on a constant basis. I've never hit or been hit by a car neither before riding as the captain of a tandem team or solo as a commuter.
    Yes: and I've never been in an aircrash or adducted by aliens - aren't we both remarkable???

    If a texting driver were to blow a stop sign or fail to yield they might nail an entitled VC'er but not me because I ride like a bicycle, NOT a motorcycle.
    So your theory is a texting driver will drive perfectly except for not seeing cyclists? He won't ever veer to the edges of the road? Ok...

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
    There were a few posters on A&S in the past who empasized that they considered themselves and others who rode like them as bicycle drivers, because they operated their bicycles IAW motor vehicle rules and requirements.
    One poster was killed in a traffic accident, cause was never made clear as best as I could tell. Another otherwise well spoken poster no longer posts here, others may be in the woodwork somewhere.
    We always *notice* it when ideologues die via their ideologies but it's not really an informative event.

    I think most cagers think of themselves as "drivers" and when they are not driving as passengers. Because operating a motorized couch is the default mode in USAnia, the label "driver" does not contain the negative "self-identity" connotations of "cyclist". As cycling inevitably becomes more common, I expect "cyclist" will also lose some of the negative baggage (subcultural and social-political) associated with the term.
    This is why motorists hate us, and why I've given up riding on the road...You should be ashamed yourself, and you should be reviled by cyclists everywhere.

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leisesturm View Post
    I see countless thousands of other cyclists riding much like I do: in the door zone, to the right of the traffic stream, but ready to control the vehicle lane when and if necessary for short periods.
    I don't know when and where you ride but I almost never see people riding in the door zone on Belmont, Hawthorne, of Madison. I also don't think riding in the door zone is a sign of progress from a "VC" or "segregation" perspectiv.
    Last edited by spare_wheel; 08-13-14 at 12:55 PM.
    This is why motorists hate us, and why I've given up riding on the road...You should be ashamed yourself, and you should be reviled by cyclists everywhere.

  13. #63
    Cycle Dallas MMACH 5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by buzzman View Post
    Other than the fact that it was a statement included in the page linked in the OP...
    A dubious claim made in the OP. I haven't found anything in the LAB report that backs up the claim "Of the 628 cycling-related fatalities studied, most were caused by careless or inattentive drivers..."
    That's gonna leave a mark.

  14. #64
    rugged individualist wphamilton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by meanwhile View Post
    That a "study" confirms your prejudices is never a good reason for believing it is correct.
    Why do you assume prejudice? I didn't cite any sources, but what I wrote there came primarily from FARS data, and a few other objective sources. I'm surprised that anyone would consider it suspect.

    There were several posters in this thread who appear to dispute that from the rear collisions result in the most fatalities. Perhaps you are another, since you refer to that statement as "prejudice" and imply confirmation bias. Do you have any data at all that disputes it?

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
    In this case, I chose to discuss/respond to a previous poster about the various definitions of overtaking in relation to bicycling accidents.
    And I chose to highlight the irony of criticizing a critique without in any way addressing the flaws in the original study.
    This is why motorists hate us, and why I've given up riding on the road...You should be ashamed yourself, and you should be reviled by cyclists everywhere.

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by wphamilton View Post
    Why do you assume prejudice? I didn't cite any sources, but what I wrote there came primarily from FARS data, and a few other objective sources. I'm surprised that anyone would consider it suspect.

    There were several posters in this thread who appear to dispute that from the rear collisions result in the most fatalities. Perhaps you are another, since you refer to that statement as "prejudice" and imply confirmation bias. Do you have any data at all that disputes it?
    Is it really hard to accept the possibility that roads with high speeds and fewer intersections have more overtaking hits or that roads with slower speed and/or more intersecation have fewer overtaking hits?

    IMO, this is only a "debate" for VCers and "copenhamsterdamistas". For non-zealots it's a bit of a "duh".
    This is why motorists hate us, and why I've given up riding on the road...You should be ashamed yourself, and you should be reviled by cyclists everywhere.

  17. #67
    rugged individualist wphamilton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
    Is it really hard to accept the possibility that roads with high speeds and fewer intersections have more overtaking hits or that roads with slower speed and/or more intersecation have fewer overtaking hits?

    IMO, this is only a "debate" for VCers and "copenhamsterdamistas". For non-zealots it's a bit of a "duh".
    It should be considered established fact, rather than merely possibilities.

    We can't really expect bike lanes on long rural roads, and we also can't really be safe with vehicular cycling if sight lines are shorter than stopping distance. If that's truly what the controversy is about, then it's difficult to see how there could be a resolution when both sides advocate the impossible.

  18. #68
    Cycle Dallas MMACH 5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wphamilton View Post
    ...
    There were several posters in this thread who appear to dispute that from the rear collisions result in the most fatalities. Perhaps you are another, since you refer to that statement as "prejudice" and imply confirmation bias. Do you have any data at all that disputes it?
    I don't dispute that a collision from the rear is worse than from the side. I dispute it being interpreted that same-way collisions are our biggest concern.

    Same way collisions are the rarest type of bicycle/auto collision. They are deadly but rare.

    Null66 made a comparison with airplane and automobile crashes. Airplane crashes are far more deadly, but are so rare that airline travel is safer than auto travel.
    That's gonna leave a mark.

  19. #69
    rugged individualist wphamilton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MMACH 5 View Post
    I don't dispute that a collision from the rear is worse than from the side. I dispute it being interpreted that same-way collisions are our biggest concern.

    Same way collisions are the rarest type of bicycle/auto collision. They are deadly but rare.

    Null66 made a comparison with airplane and automobile crashes. Airplane crashes are far more deadly, but are so rare that airline travel is safer than auto travel.
    Rare enough that I'm not concerned at all about them, other than riding with a mirror to improve my odds.

    The tunnel vision on fatalities (let alone type of fatality) is already a red herring. There are 50,000 injuries and 700 fatalities in round numbers. Addressing the overtaking portion of fatalities (180 to 280 depending on who you believe) to the exclusion of the 50,000 injuries doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

  20. #70
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
    I think most cagers think of themselves as "drivers" and when they are not driving as passengers. Because operating a motorized couch is the default mode in USAnia, the label "driver" does not contain the negative "self-identity" connotations of "cyclist". As cycling inevitably becomes more common, I expect "cyclist" will also lose some of the negative baggage (subcultural and social-political) associated with the term.
    It is unlikely that many drivers/motorist consider themselves "cagers," or that they operate a "motorized couch", or that they live in "USAnia." Nor that they would likely be impressed with such colorful descriptions.

    But there are always a few jokers in the deck reducing whatever credibility they might have by repeatedly using such smarmy/belittling references.

  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by wphamilton View Post
    It should be considered established fact, rather than merely possibilities.
    I was being very generous.

    We can't really expect bike lanes on long rural roads, and we also can't really be safe with vehicular cycling if sight lines are shorter than stopping distance.
    I've always believed that bike advocates would get more traction if there was support for a range of approaches/options instead of the *one ideal solution*.
    This is why motorists hate us, and why I've given up riding on the road...You should be ashamed yourself, and you should be reviled by cyclists everywhere.

  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by MMACH 5 View Post
    Can you site a source for the bolded claim?
    MMACH5
    No.
    I glanced at the "article" again. It isn't an article-just a few paragraphs-pie chart -couple of tables.
    It wasn't clear HOW/WHERE the writer got the numbers-628 deaths.
    And considering their own "facts" cut below

    In the 628 fatalities, police reportedly cited motorists 285 times. But authorities took legal action in only 135 of the cases resulting in just 77 sentences.

    How 285/628(45%) or 135/628(21%) becomes MOST ???
    It doesn't make any sense to call 45% or 21% "most"

    Now the OP point- 40% rear enders- yeah rear end collision-certainly indicates inattention.
    And that was what I was "using" to cheap shot Lane Controlling.
    I can never resist a cheap shot at LCing.

    Now I would buy that many many-majority maybe-of bike car deaths are caused by inattention-but those numbers don't suggest the cops or juries bought it
    AND safe bet the drivers sure as hell didn't say " I was TEXTING"

    Now I did like the bike lanes I rode on in Flagstaff AZ-but the drivers there were sooooo polite it might not matter.
    I rarely ride our NOLA bike lanes-don't live in the city

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post

    IMO, this is only a "debate" for VCers and "copenhamsterdamistas". For non-zealots it's a bit of a "duh".
    LOL, very well put.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Null66 View Post
    Both of you need external validation of who you yourselves think you are, pretty serious issues.

    What matters in an identity is not someone else's understanding but each person understanding of themselves.

    Many, perhaps most people who ride bikes don't think of themselves as "cyclists", even though they ride bikes. Call them that and you'll likely get an ear full of what they think "cyclists" are like. Down here, it involves a rather negative view of lycra, leg shaving, racing, performance enhancers, a particular attitude, and a big dose of "you're not from around here, are you?".... But they still ride bikes... And they do make up a disproportionate number of fatalities.

    ...
    Wow. Talk about elitism and needing "external validation".

    I guess when you find yourself in a logical fallacy hole, you don't stop digging. Oh no, not that. You reach for the pneumatic drills, drill some holes, fill the holes with dynamite, and try to blast your way to China.

  25. #75
    Senior Member meanwhile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wphamilton View Post
    Why do you assume prejudice?
    I didn't: you said that you were prejudiced - you had expectations and the claimed result matched them, hence "no surprise." Prejudice means pre-judging - that's where the word comes from. Intelligent people don't judge studies this way but on their methodology - which in this case is poor.

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