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Almost had a MUP fight yesterday...

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Almost had a MUP fight yesterday...

Old 10-15-14, 02:18 PM
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Originally Posted by wphamilton
My powers of arrest would include for battery, for example if someone physically attacked me after I passed through their blocking group. Any citizen has this power - but he'd better do it right and he'd better be right.

It's not hilarious that citizens believe that only a cop with a badge has this authority, or that a cop or ex-cop would mock it. It is sad though.
You better do it right indeed. Of course, no battery was committed in the OPs thrilling tale. And if someone were to attempt a citizens arrest for battery in an instance where their fat mouth was a precipitating factor in the "case" it would probably not end well. Of course, how you are going to effect an arrest with out the awesome power of the state behind you in an instance where you are vastly outnumbered is another problem. The common law right to make citizens arrests exists. Exercising that right opens you up to all kinds of difficulties. It IS hilarious to think, that the citizens of A&S would consider exercising this option, over any violation of the law, that didn't involve a serious physical assault. Don't want to be mocked, don't say/do silly things that beg for mockery.
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Old 10-15-14, 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted by JoeyBike
...
I will admit that buzzing a rude MUP user may or may not be illegal. I do not know. And I have yet to hit anyone that I purposely "woke up" with an unnecessarily close pass. ...
You shouldn't do that though, because if one of them moves randomly at the exactly wrong time - and some do - you cannot avoid him. Unless your "buzz" is from several feet of separation, which is not what we usually mean by that. Waking him up does not justify the added risk.
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Old 10-15-14, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by JoeyBike
If you look back in any post NOT titled "Red Light Running" you will find that others bring that subject up to support THEIR agenda of compliance with dumb laws. I just follow their lead in self defense and wonder why it keeps coming up. I've been profiled and some here love to pound their chests about their law abiding style.

And I choose to live in New Orleans for political reasons I can not discuss on this forum and would not want to.
That's the thing, most people like myself do take some liberties, the difference is knowing we are in fact doing something wrong rather than fabricating elaborate justifications in an attempt to make it right in our own mind.

Another thing is people who do or think different than I are not "meat pylons" or "idiots" simply because of it, its not all about you/me, they may do dumb things because they're not thinking or are thoughtless, but they're not doing it to us with malice. Try saving the moral outrage for those few who do, instead of treating everyone as a door mat on the path to your desires.
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Old 10-15-14, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by rebel1916
You better do it right indeed. Of course, no battery was committed in the OPs thrilling tale. And if someone were to attempt a citizens arrest for battery in an instance where their fat mouth was a precipitating factor in the "case" it would probably not end well. Of course, how you are going to effect an arrest with out the awesome power of the state behind you in an instance where you are vastly outnumbered is another problem. The common law right to make citizens arrests exists. Exercising that right opens you up to all kinds of difficulties. It IS hilarious to think, that the citizens of A&S would consider exercising this option, over any violation of the law, that didn't involve a serious physical assault. Don't want to be mocked, don't say/do silly things that beg for mockery.
I'm going to exercise that power only if there's a felony, someone is in imminent danger, AND I can get away with it. I didn't bring it up at all (as an option for OP), nor first mention it in general.

The person who did bring it up was just illustrating the fact that yes, citizens do have enforcement powers under the law. Someone else was mistakenly mocking the idea that citizens have the authority to insist that they may go about their lawful business without illegal interference when there are no cops, badges or guns around.

Last edited by wphamilton; 10-15-14 at 02:32 PM.
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Old 10-15-14, 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by wphamilton
I'm going to exercise that power only if there's a felony, someone is in imminent danger, AND I can get away with it. I didn't bring it up at all (as an option for OP), nor first mention it in general.

The person who did bring it up was just illustrating the fact that yes, citizens do have enforcement powers under the law. Someone else was mistakenly mocking the idea that citizens have the authority to insist that they may go about their lawful business without illegal interference when there are no cops, badges or guns around.
What I said originally was that those of us who are paid to enforce the law (and I am not a street cop) would not get involved in such a t*****, and that being that my state granted powers of arrest would not apply to such a t*****, a citizens arrest for such a thing would be ludicrous. Do you know what another name for an improper citizens arrest is? Kidnapping.
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Old 10-15-14, 02:51 PM
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Holy Lord, you can't say "tr!fle" because any discussion of gats makes people so sad around here. My head hurts.
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Old 10-15-14, 03:05 PM
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Originally Posted by rebel1916
What I said originally was that those of us who are paid to enforce the law (and I am not a street cop) would not get involved in such a t*****, and that being that my state granted powers of arrest would not apply to such a t*****, a citizens arrest for such a thing would be ludicrous. Do you know what another name for an improper citizens arrest is? Kidnapping.
I don't disagree with any of that, and I doubt that the other participants do either.

All of that was suggested between you and the other guy (the one that was mocking citizens who insist on going about their business without illegal hindrance)
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Old 10-15-14, 03:14 PM
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Only the male of the species would think that blocking a common pathway was grounds for arrest or assault. Watch women going about their business in the neighborhood supermarket. Women are constantly hanging out in the aisles without pulling their carts over. They'll stop on a dime to reach across the aisle to grab something without regard to who's behind them or coming the other way. It's a lot like a MUP. Yet, they don't get mad. They don't seem to even acknowledge that there's a problem. Someone stops in your way. Go around them. Someone's blocking the aisle. They'll move without so much as a comment. It's a different planet. Who are we to decide that MUP behavior should be closer to that of a highway than a supermarket?
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Old 10-15-14, 03:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Digital_Cowboy
How is wantonly breaking the law and then “justifying” it by claiming to do it for one’s safety, or because they’re claiming that they’re trying to be “polite” not a sense of entitlement?
Here's the thing. Intersections are dangerous places for cyclists. And standing over a stopped bike is when a cyclist is at his/her most vulnerable. Their maneuverability is significantly reduced. They're essentially on foot, straddling a fence at that point. So, if the cyclist can do so without failing to yield the right of way to anyone, it is in his/her best interest, legal ramifications notwithstanding, to proceed through the intersection as soon as possible.

Now, consider a four way stop. If I'm going to arrive at the intersection before anyone else, but others will arrive very shortly after them, then, once I've verified that any cross traffic is in fact panning to stop, it is not just more convenient for me, but for the other road users as well, for me to proceed without stopping. I'm not failing to yield, and no one else has to wait for me to come to a complete stop and then start again from a standing stop.

I fail to see how that demonstrates any kind of sense of entitlement.
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Old 10-15-14, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Coal Buster
Only the male of the species would think that blocking a common pathway was grounds for arrest or assault. Watch women going about their business in the neighborhood supermarket. Women are constantly hanging out in the aisles without pulling their carts over. They'll stop on a dime to reach across the aisle to grab something without regard to who's behind them or coming the other way. It's a lot like a MUP. Yet, they don't get mad. They don't seem to even acknowledge that there's a problem. Someone stops in your way. Go around them. Someone's blocking the aisle. They'll move without so much as a comment. It's a different planet. Who are we to decide that MUP behavior should be closer to that of a highway than a supermarket?
+1
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Old 10-15-14, 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Jaywalk3r
I fail to see how that demonstrates any kind of sense of entitlement.
Because in a civilized society laws apply equally to all who are compelled to obey until such time that they changed by due process.

If or when we choose to transgress, we should at least be honest with ourselves about it.
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Old 10-15-14, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by JoeyBike
There was a little party on a ship loaded with tea in 1773 that will contradict that notion. The actual conception of our country was BASED on being properly represented by current law, or breaking those laws. It’s almost mandatory in a “free” society to rebel when you are being unfairly taxed and not properly represented.

So there is yet ANOTHER angle I can play here. Handing me some laws designed for motor vehicles is lazy, uninformed, and dangerous. I will not comply with the ones that make no sense, but I will comply with laws that do make sense. As always, I break the law in a manner that does not put anyone else out.

I will admit that buzzing a rude MUP user may or may not be illegal. I do not know. And I have yet to hit anyone that I purposely “woke up” with an unnecessarily close pass. I have hit one pedestrian in recent history who literally dove in front of me on a narrow street. Did not fall or knock him down. HE apologized.

Sometimes accurate history speaks for itself.
Joey,

That was then, when there wasn’t any system in place for our forefathers to challenge “bad” laws. NOW there is a system in place to address “bad” laws. If you want the law(s) changed breaking it is NOT the way to go about it. Contact your local lawmakers contact the people in your area to sign a petition to call for the amending or repealing of a law. But these days one cannot just break a law that they do not agree with.

Doing so is dangerous for everyone. As the laws are made so that everyone is operating from the same play/rulebook.

And one day you’re going to end up answering to the laws of physics.
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Old 10-15-14, 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted by kickstart
Because in a civilized society laws apply equally to all who are compelled to obey until such time that they changed by due process.
I think you're getting some legal terms mixed up. At any rate, committing a victimless crime is not an indication of a sense of entitlement. If I simply blew through intersections without regard for who actually has the right of way, claiming it should be mine because I'm on a bike, that would indicate a sense of entitlement. If I gruffly ordered others around because I felt they were in my way, that would indicate a sense of entitlement.

Originally Posted by kickstart
If or when we choose to transgress, we should at least be honest with ourselves about it.
I'm quite honest about it. In fact, I ride the same way in the presence of law enforcement as I do otherwise. They seem to be able to differentiate between safely proceeding through a red light or stop sign and blowing through intersections without regard for other road users.
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Old 10-15-14, 05:25 PM
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Originally Posted by wphamilton
I have the same opinion, and I think I even wrote something similar way back in the BF annals. But two things.

What if we aren’t all obeying them; what if, in fact, those roads are to a high degree lawless? Specifically, people are ignoring the red lights and not just one or two on the stale yellow but significant disregard for the light? As you said, the law won’t work in those conditions. And if drivers randomly blow the light it may actually be safer to proceed in a more empty intersection than to wait for the signal.

And secondly, if it really is dangerous to be stopped at certain intersections because of lawless individuals? The law doesn’t expect us to accept a seriously dangerous situation just to remain in obedience to traffic code. Or even more serious statutes.

Since I don’t know the conditions in New Orleans, and it seems at least plausible given recent history, I have to lend some credence to the description by a native. If true, or even plausible, then it rates at least my reserving judgment on routinely running reds.
WP,

Agreed, as has been noted in other threads most cities/counties/states have laws that allow motor and bicycles to proceed through an intersection after they’ve waited at least one cycle to see if the light is “dead” or not. As even if it isn’t very likely it is within the realm of possibility that a light has been fixed so that it properly detects ALL forms vehicular traffic.

To the first, I say that “two wrongs don’t make a right.” Or as most of our mothers said to us at one time or another, “if all of your friends jumped off of the Empire State Building, would you?”

To the second, I can totally understand that because of certain individuals that it may not always be safe for people using certain types of vehicles to stop too long in certain neighborhoods. And there are exceptions to most laws that allow people to proceed, such as the aforementioned “dead red” law. But people still have to obey the law(s), or try to get them changed/repealed.

I would have to think that IF things are so bad in New Orleans that we’d hear more about it on the evening news. I don’t know about you, but I haven’t heard anything on the evening news where I live that would suggest that it is as dangerous to live there as Joey makes it.

He has said/suggested the people are “shooting each other in the streets, over the slightest provocation,” and that because of La’s version of “stand your ground” law that it’s “legal.”

Here in Fl we also have a “stand your ground” law. But even with that law is it is not a “lock” that if John Doe shoots Billy Bob Jones that John Doe will be able to use the “stand your ground” law as a defense.

There is just such a case going through the courts here in Fl right now. It involves a retired police captain who shot an unarmed man in a movie theater for texting and throwing popcorn in his face. In this case given that shooter is a retired police captain, and actually NOTjust” a retired police captain, but he is also a former SWAT officer. He more so then anyone should know how to defuse a situation so that resorting to shooting can be avoided.

Plus it has been revealed shortly after the shooting that the shooter had also been texting in the movie theater, and that at least two people have come forward with reports of having run ins with him. In one a person had moved into his neighborhood and was listening to his radio while he was working on his car in his driveway when the retired cop approached him and “ordered” him to turn his radio down. The second was a woman who was texting in a movie theater, possibly the same theater.

What myself and others feel happened is that the shooter having not only been a cop, not only a SWAT cop, but also a retired police captain that he was used to having people obey his orders without question. He just wasn’t/isn’t prepared for life post law enforcement where he no longer has the authority to tell people what to do.

So, I’m sorry, but I do not buy everything that Joey says about life in New Orleans being so dangerous. As if it is I think that we’d have heard about it in the national news, and I would also have to think that if it was so dangerous to live there, that people would be moving away in droves. Again, I don’t know about you, but I haven’t heard any reports of people leaving New Orleans for safer locations.

I do not doubt that sadly, as in any major US city that there aren’t bad neighborhoods, where even the police are “afraid” to go after dark unless they are at least in pairs. But that doesn’t mean that it is a “lawless” city, with people “just” shooting each other in the street with little provocation.
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Old 10-15-14, 05:36 PM
  #190  
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Originally Posted by wphamilton
You shouldn't do that though, because if one of them moves randomly at the exactly wrong time - and some do - you cannot avoid him. Unless your "buzz" is from several feet of separation, which is not what we usually mean by that. Waking him up does not justify the added risk.
+100

One cannot escape the laws of physics, they will eventually catch up with one.
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Old 10-15-14, 05:48 PM
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Originally Posted by kickstart
Because in a civilized society laws apply equally to all who are compelled to obey until such time that they changed by due process.

If or when we choose to transgress, we should at least be honest with ourselves about it.
Kickstart,

Again +100, and that’s the key, in a civilized society laws apply equally to all, and those who think that they’re “above” the law either end up in jail/prison or worse in the ground. As the laws of physics can be VERY unforgiving, and there is probably a “Darwin Award” somewhere in their future.

Agreed, if someone such as our friend Joey is going to routinely break the law, they at the very least need to be honest with themselves and admit that they are NOT doing so for anyone but their one convenience. And just as it’s been said that most LEOs would laugh at being called out to a public trail/MUP/path because one group was blocking it, they will likewise laugh when they stop someone on a bike for running a red light/stop sign because it was “safer” to do so or because it was the “polite” thing to do.
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Old 10-15-14, 05:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Jaywalk3r
Here's the thing. Intersections are dangerous places for cyclists. And standing over a stopped bike is when a cyclist is at his/her most vulnerable. Their maneuverability is significantly reduced. They're essentially on foot, straddling a fence at that point. So, if the cyclist can do so without failing to yield the right of way to anyone, it is in his/her best interest, legal ramifications notwithstanding, to proceed through the intersection as soon as possible.

Now, consider a four way stop. If I'm going to arrive at the intersection before anyone else, but others will arrive very shortly after them, then, once I've verified that any cross traffic is in fact panning to stop, it is not just more convenient for me, but for the other road users as well, for me to proceed without stopping. I'm not failing to yield, and no one else has to wait for me to come to a complete stop and then start again from a standing stop.

I fail to see how that demonstrates any kind of sense of entitlement.
EVERYONE WINS!

I have been saying (and typing) that for years. Thank you for risking a Hellstorm making that statement here.

Originally Posted by Digital_Cowboy
...And just as it’s been said that most LEOs would laugh at being called out to a public trail/MUP/path because one group was blocking it, they will likewise laugh when they stop someone on a bike for running a red light/stop sign because it was “safer” to do so or because it was the “polite” thing to do.
You just hit the nail on the head. The cops already KNOW it's safer to keep moving. We don't have to state the obvious to NOPD. Every cyclist in New Orleans keeps moving. It's our long standing culture to run any red light that we can. Stop signs too. I am speaking of utilitarian cyclists here - those who cycle every day and are car free or car light. There are thousands of us and that's not counting students at the various universities planted right in the city. You might find some weekend warrior or mom/dad pulling two kids in a trailer stopped at a red light, but pretty much no one else. Cyclists don't stop, the cops could not care less. In all my 56 years in NOLA i have only heard of one person on a bike getting a ticket and he blew a red at full speed right across the bow of a patrol car who had a green light. The cops stopped him to see if he was mentally ill. Then cited him and expressed how worried he made them as he almost got killed. <----THIS is what it takes to get cited on a bike in NOLA.

If I were to be stopped by an NOPD officer (that is a HUGE "if") and I told him/her that I felt threatened at that intersection, I have zero doubt that *if true* the cop would just wag a finger at me and let me go. My cop acquaintances tell their loved ones what intersections to blow a red IN THEIR CARS!

You did make me laugh tho. Thanks for that!

Last edited by JoeyBike; 10-15-14 at 06:15 PM.
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Old 10-15-14, 06:27 PM
  #193  
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Originally Posted by Digital_Cowboy

I would have to think that IF things are so bad in New Orleans that we’d hear more about it on the evening news. I don’t know about you, but I haven’t heard anything on the evening news where I live that would suggest that it is as dangerous to live there as Joey makes it.
Here is a link to the crime statistic comparison of the first quarter of 2013 to 2014. These numbers are QUARTER years in a relatively small city of crimes that actually get reported. Take the FACTS, interpret them however you like.

https://www.nola.gov/getattachment/f9..._Citywide-UCR/
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Old 10-15-14, 06:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Jaywalk3r
. . .
Originally Posted by Jaywalk3r
I’m quite honest about it. In fact, I ride the same way in the presence of law enforcement as I do otherwise. They seem to be able to differentiate between safely proceeding through a red light or stop sign and blowing through intersections without regard for other road users.
Jaywalk3r, Just because the cop isn’t doing his/her job doesn’t make your actions right. Sometimes I think that the cops have a little TOO much discretion when it comes to the enforcement of the law. It has been said here, plenty of times, that if the cops concentrated on the “little things,” that the “big things” would likewise be taken care of. As an example, I’ve heard it mentioned that “early” in his killing career that Ted Bundy was stopped by a cop for a minor traffic violation, the irony is that it’s been alleged that Bundy had a body in either the backseat or trunk of his car at the time he was stopped. So if that cop during that traffic stop had searched the car, how many lives might have been saved? Sadly, around town I have personally witnessed police turning a “blind eye” to jaywalkers, to motorists who have failed to signal lane changes/turns, and failing to come to a complete stop before making a right on red. Does that make those actions right, and please let’s not forget that The Tampa Bay Area is no. two in the nation for bicycle/pedestrian crashes/fatalities. And sadly, by his own admission there are plenty of times that Joey has blown through intersections at speed. One of these days (I sincerely hope not) his actions WILL catch up with him. In that he will either get hit resulting in either serious injury or death, or that he will cause a chain reaction where others are injured or killed.
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Old 10-15-14, 06:32 PM
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Originally Posted by JoeyBike
,...............
OK Joey, here's a real simple yes or no question.


Do you possess the skill and confidence to safely ride a by bike without breaking any laws?
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Old 10-15-14, 06:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Digital_Cowboy
Jaywalk3r, Just because the cop isn’t doing his/her job doesn’t make your actions right. Sometimes I think that the cops have a little TOO much discretion when it comes to the enforcement of the law. It has been said here, plenty of times, that if the cops concentrated on the “little things,” that the “big things” would likewise be taken care of. As an example, I’ve heard it mentioned that “early” in his killing career that Ted Bundy was stopped by a cop for a minor traffic violation, the irony is that it’s been alleged that Bundy had a body in either the backseat or trunk of his car at the time he was stopped. So if that cop during that traffic stop had searched the car, how many lives might have been saved? Sadly, around town I have personally witnessed police turning a “blind eye” to jaywalkers, to motorists who have failed to signal lane changes/turns, and failing to come to a complete stop before making a right on red. Does that make those actions right, and please let’s not forget that The Tampa Bay Area is no. two in the nation for bicycle/pedestrian crashes/fatalities. And sadly, by his own admission there are plenty of times that Joey has blown through intersections at speed. One of these days (I sincerely hope not) his actions WILL catch up with him. In that he will either get hit resulting in either serious injury or death, or that he will cause a chain reaction where others are injured or killed.
Cant just search a car. Need probable cause.
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Old 10-15-14, 07:03 PM
  #197  
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Originally Posted by kickstart
OK Joey, here's a real simple yes or no question.


Do you possess the skill and confidence to safely ride a by bike without breaking any laws?
Breaking laws has nothing to do with skill or confidence. How does all of the many transgressions that you accuse this dude of, have anything to do with a lack of skill. That just doesn't make sense.
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Old 10-15-14, 07:15 PM
  #198  
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Originally Posted by kickstart
OK Joey, here's a real simple yes or no question.


Do you possess the skill and confidence to safely ride a by bike without breaking any laws?
OK...I'll bite. I often ride my bike without breaking any laws. And I feel quite comfortable with behaving in certain parts of the city under certain conditions. In fact, I am quite lazy and would feel comfy and LOVE to take a nice bike ride and chill at red lights.

Simple YES. (At last)

Originally Posted by rebel1916
Breaking laws has nothing to do with skill or confidence. How does all of the many transgressions that you accuse this dude of, have anything to do with a lack of skill. That just doesn't make sense.

Anxiously awaiting the trap I just stepped on to spring...
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Old 10-15-14, 07:18 PM
  #199  
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I do the Greenway every day. Some days it's filled with people, some of whom are blocking the path, not minding their kids, letting their dogs have 20 feet of leash, rolling three strollers abreast. I ring my bell, say "Hi!" and "Thank you!" and have never, ever had a bad moment out there. I'm nice, I'm polite, and I'm not in a hurry.
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Old 10-15-14, 07:41 PM
  #200  
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Originally Posted by JoeyBike
OK...I'll bite. I often ride my bike without breaking any laws. And I feel quite comfortable with behaving in certain parts of the city under certain conditions. In fact, I am quite lazy and would feel comfy and LOVE to take a nice bike ride and chill at red lights.

Simple YES. (At last)




Anxiously awaiting the trap I just stepped on to spring...


Mind if I wait with you? I brought some snacks to share!
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