View Poll Results: What Are Your Helmet Wearing Habits?
I've never worn a bike helmet
52
10.40%
I used to wear a helmet, but have stopped
24
4.80%
I've always worn a helmet
208
41.60%
I didn't wear a helmet, but now do
126
25.20%
I sometimes wear a helmet depending on the conditions
90
18.00%
Voters: 500. You may not vote on this poll
The Helmet Thread 2
#176
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Alpharetta, GA
Posts: 15,280
Bikes: Nashbar Road
Mentioned: 71 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2934 Post(s)
Liked 341 Times
in
228 Posts
... However, wearing a helmet makes BIKING more dangerous. They sited a "study" (I haven't read it.) where they found that cars tend to pass helmeted bikers more closely than non-helmeted bikers, increasing the risk of getting hit.
This is one of their conclusions.
Research has failed to show any net protective value of bike helmets.
...
This is one of their conclusions.
Research has failed to show any net protective value of bike helmets.
...
My reasons:
...
** and finally the study has been refuted in peer review, for example
Bicycle Helmet Wearing Is Not Associated with Close Motor Vehicle Passing: A Re-Analysis of Walker, 2007
"After re-analysis of Walker's data, helmet wearing is not associated with close motor vehicle passing. The results, however, highlight other more important factors that may inform effective bicycle safety strategies."
Last edited by wphamilton; 11-07-14 at 01:26 PM. Reason: figured the refuting review is enough without my reasons
#177
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 197
Bikes: Paramount Series 3, Shimano RX-100; Cannondale CAADX, Shimano 105; Cinelli SuperCorsa, SRAM Red; Pinarello Dogma F8, Shimano Dura-Ace Di 2; Firefly Custom Titanium Sram 1x
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 16 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
A few comments.
If the truth of a proposition was all that's required for people to believe it we would live in a peaceful world. A few people are truth-seekers, but the rest just want to feel good. And being right feels great, so if someone has some thing call 'evidence' that will stop them from feeling so good, they have no time for it, and if you put it in front of their face they will avert their eyes.
Some people even believe plain lies to feel good and don't mind at all.
It helps if you divide internet posters into two groups as quickly as you can. One group is the posters who can discuss things normally using good manners and with the ability to disagree without being nasty. They are like gold dust. The other group are the people who are best categorized as light entertainment and can't be taken seriously, and deserve all the repartee you can foist on them.
Thank you for trying the impossible.
Let's try to move this thread into a direction where we post studies and rational, unbiased, websites on the problem at hand. (Or at least websites that admit their biases.)
I'll start.
Here's the study that EVERYONE and their mother get's the helmets are 85% safer statistic (even though that's not what the study says.)
https://www.med.illinois.edu/m2/epid...ctions/3-5.pdf
Hopefully you'll be able to see it, since I'm at a university I have better access than most. If you actually bother to read the study more than the abstract (and you have any sort of experimental training.) you'll see that the study was conducted poorly and the conclusions that were drawn were...dubious and a bit reaching. Many sites agree with me on these points.
Now, here's a safe cycling website discussing helmet use and also has a few notes about this study further down the page.
https://bicyclesafe.com/helmets.html
Some of the interesting things on this page.
Helmets DO make falls a bit safer. However, wearing a helmet makes BIKING more dangerous. They sited a "study" (I haven't read it.) where they found that cars tend to pass helmeted bikers more closely than non-helmeted bikers, increasing the risk of getting hit.
This is one of their conclusions.
Research has failed to show any net protective value of bike helmets.
We all have opinions strongly laced with emotions and experiences. Let's try to keep those out of the discussion and read what scientists and people more level headed than we are have to say.
EDIT: So I don't seem biased, here's a site advocating for the USE of helmets. They DO admit their bias however.
Should I Wear a Bike Helmet?
I'll start.
Here's the study that EVERYONE and their mother get's the helmets are 85% safer statistic (even though that's not what the study says.)
https://www.med.illinois.edu/m2/epid...ctions/3-5.pdf
Hopefully you'll be able to see it, since I'm at a university I have better access than most. If you actually bother to read the study more than the abstract (and you have any sort of experimental training.) you'll see that the study was conducted poorly and the conclusions that were drawn were...dubious and a bit reaching. Many sites agree with me on these points.
Now, here's a safe cycling website discussing helmet use and also has a few notes about this study further down the page.
https://bicyclesafe.com/helmets.html
Some of the interesting things on this page.
Helmets DO make falls a bit safer. However, wearing a helmet makes BIKING more dangerous. They sited a "study" (I haven't read it.) where they found that cars tend to pass helmeted bikers more closely than non-helmeted bikers, increasing the risk of getting hit.
This is one of their conclusions.
Research has failed to show any net protective value of bike helmets.
We all have opinions strongly laced with emotions and experiences. Let's try to keep those out of the discussion and read what scientists and people more level headed than we are have to say.
EDIT: So I don't seem biased, here's a site advocating for the USE of helmets. They DO admit their bias however.
Should I Wear a Bike Helmet?
Last edited by Tiglath; 11-07-14 at 01:50 PM.
#179
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 197
Bikes: Paramount Series 3, Shimano RX-100; Cannondale CAADX, Shimano 105; Cinelli SuperCorsa, SRAM Red; Pinarello Dogma F8, Shimano Dura-Ace Di 2; Firefly Custom Titanium Sram 1x
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 16 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I have to more than a little skeptical, both about their conclusion and about the study. Your cited page linked to this press release about the study.
My reasons:
* no link was established between the closer passes and greater likelihood of accident
* The difference was only three inches, which not only may be insignificant but also may be within the margin of measurement error. For example, most people wobble that much.
* the average passing distance was 4.4 feet for cars, more than 4 feet even on the "close" passes. It is more than dubious to claim that the "close" 4-foot pass increased his danger.
* He was struck twice from an exposure of only 2,500 passes. Clearly, he's doing something wrong.
* There was no control in his experiment, and only one rider
* His conclusions are unwarranted. “This study shows that when drivers overtake a cyclist, the margin for error they leave is affected by the cyclist’s appearance,” said Dr Walker. He has no reasonable basis to assume that the passing distance is a deliberate margin of error, nor that it is affected by appearance.
* Another error, "By leaving the cyclist less room, drivers reduce the safety margin that cyclists need to deal with obstacles in the road" He assumes without grounds that the three inches less space reduces what cyclists "need" to avoid road hazards.
* The most egregious mistake "Either way, this study suggests wearing a helmet might make a collision more likely in the first place.” which was not established, nor even suggested by his results
* He continues with stereotypical reasoning without offering justification
** and finally the study has been refuted in peer review, for example
Bicycle Helmet Wearing Is Not Associated with Close Motor Vehicle Passing: A Re-Analysis of Walker, 2007
"After re-analysis of Walker's data, helmet wearing is not associated with close motor vehicle passing. The results, however, highlight other more important factors that may inform effective bicycle safety strategies."
My reasons:
* no link was established between the closer passes and greater likelihood of accident
* The difference was only three inches, which not only may be insignificant but also may be within the margin of measurement error. For example, most people wobble that much.
* the average passing distance was 4.4 feet for cars, more than 4 feet even on the "close" passes. It is more than dubious to claim that the "close" 4-foot pass increased his danger.
* He was struck twice from an exposure of only 2,500 passes. Clearly, he's doing something wrong.
* There was no control in his experiment, and only one rider
* His conclusions are unwarranted. “This study shows that when drivers overtake a cyclist, the margin for error they leave is affected by the cyclist’s appearance,” said Dr Walker. He has no reasonable basis to assume that the passing distance is a deliberate margin of error, nor that it is affected by appearance.
* Another error, "By leaving the cyclist less room, drivers reduce the safety margin that cyclists need to deal with obstacles in the road" He assumes without grounds that the three inches less space reduces what cyclists "need" to avoid road hazards.
* The most egregious mistake "Either way, this study suggests wearing a helmet might make a collision more likely in the first place.” which was not established, nor even suggested by his results
* He continues with stereotypical reasoning without offering justification
** and finally the study has been refuted in peer review, for example
Bicycle Helmet Wearing Is Not Associated with Close Motor Vehicle Passing: A Re-Analysis of Walker, 2007
"After re-analysis of Walker's data, helmet wearing is not associated with close motor vehicle passing. The results, however, highlight other more important factors that may inform effective bicycle safety strategies."
That study was done in a slipshod manner. Somehow "appearance" turns into 'helmet.'
Also, before you can notice the effect of changing a single variable in a mult-variant cause and effect study, you have to make all other variables equal to see if the one that varies sticks out like a sore thumb. It is not clear they did that.
The tests with and without helmet should involve the same bicycle, clothes, place, and traffic conditions, AND the same drivers going by; else results are blurred. No group of drivers behaves identically as the next.
It is not an easy methodology to do it right, but it's the only way to get reliable results.
#181
Tractorlegs
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: El Paso, TX
Posts: 3,185
Bikes: Schwinn Meridian Single-Speed Tricycle
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 119 Post(s)
Liked 60 Times
in
42 Posts
Ladies and gents, a reminder that the Helmet Thread is subject to the same rules as the rest of the forums. Yeah, it's rough, but we cannot tolerate personal insults. Keep it objective and no more personal attacks. Thanks - -
__________________
********************************
Trikeman
Trikeman
#182
Senior Member
I'll have you know I bathed just last month. But I was really hoping you'd stick to your word:
Oh dear, it seems the mods came down on stuff like this while I was still on the last page...
Last edited by mconlonx; 11-07-14 at 02:04 PM.
#183
Senior Member
I have to more than a little skeptical, both about their conclusion and about the study. Your cited page linked to this press release about the study.
My reasons:
...
** and finally the study has been refuted in peer review, for example
Bicycle Helmet Wearing Is Not Associated with Close Motor Vehicle Passing: A Re-Analysis of Walker, 2007
"After re-analysis of Walker's data, helmet wearing is not associated with close motor vehicle passing. The results, however, highlight other more important factors that may inform effective bicycle safety strategies."
My reasons:
...
** and finally the study has been refuted in peer review, for example
Bicycle Helmet Wearing Is Not Associated with Close Motor Vehicle Passing: A Re-Analysis of Walker, 2007
"After re-analysis of Walker's data, helmet wearing is not associated with close motor vehicle passing. The results, however, highlight other more important factors that may inform effective bicycle safety strategies."
A wig might also help mitigate oblique impact acceleration, a leading cause of TBI.
While most of the studies one could post here will be the same as posted in a previous thread -- i.e. debatable to the point that neither side gives an inch -- there were some recent helmet studies posted toward the end of the previous helmet thread which indicated that helmets did a good job in helping to prevent slight head injury; did a decent job protecting against moderate head injury; and even helped a bit regarding severe head injury. It surprised me, after seeing so much said by the bare-headers about a helmet being useless where serious head injury is concerned, but when queried for any kind of rebuttal, no one offered any up.
So while even skeptics admitted all along that a helmet could help regarding possible superficial injury, they couldn't really counter the study's conclusion that helmets help against a whole range of injury. Just that -- to no-one's surprise -- as the level of severity ramps up, the effectiveness of helmets in mitigating such injury drops.
#184
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 197
Bikes: Paramount Series 3, Shimano RX-100; Cannondale CAADX, Shimano 105; Cinelli SuperCorsa, SRAM Red; Pinarello Dogma F8, Shimano Dura-Ace Di 2; Firefly Custom Titanium Sram 1x
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 16 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I understand the rules. But that does not mean I will take disparagement and abuse quietly. Nodoby should. I will never start it, but if someone jabs without provocation and it stands I shall respond as warranted, even if it is the last thing I do here.
Also, as we have seen, some people are just raring to feel alluded and insulted, just because they belong to a group whose behavior is being questioned. Those apples may succeed in rotting the whole thread.
My take with strangers is: You treat me well, I treat you better. Try to rain on my parade, I piss all over you. Any questions?
It has served me well and it fits the Internet to a T.
Kind regards,
Tiglath
#185
Friendship is Magic
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 22,984
Bikes: old ones
Mentioned: 304 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26419 Post(s)
Liked 10,380 Times
in
7,208 Posts
I think all I need is a cargo bike, a propane bottle, some kinda thruster control throttle, and a half a pint of vodka (courage).
__________________
#186
Friendship is Magic
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 22,984
Bikes: old ones
Mentioned: 304 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26419 Post(s)
Liked 10,380 Times
in
7,208 Posts
Really, at its center, the Helment Threadtm is all about the ..........
__________________
#187
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Bozeman
Posts: 4,094
Bikes: 199? Landshark Roadshark, 198? Mondonico Diamond, 1987 Panasonic DX-5000, 1987 Bianchi Limited, Univega... Chrome..., 1989 Schwinn Woodlands, Motobecane USA Record, Raleigh Tokul 2
Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1131 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
And I'd have to attempt to ride the EXACT same line every day.
Honestly, the whole idea is easy enough that I may just try it.
EDIT: Even though I mentioned an article that a few of you here have shot down (it's fine, I didn't even read it.), there are many other pieces of evidence on that page I posted from bicyclesafe.com (or whatever the link was.)
Another argument is that a helmet makes your head effectively bigger, meaning you're more likely to hit your (now bigger) head on something.
Another argument is that helmets reduce your ability to hear cars approaching from the rear. I can attest to this problem. I can hear much better without a helmet on.
Lastly, on that same page, they have a paper written (not peer reviewed) by someone at the "Bicycle Helmet Research Foundation". This paper brings a lot of data together regaurding injuries before and after helmet laws were introduced. It's an interesting read, and seems pretty unbiased. It seems like the main point is to disprove claims like "Helmets make cycling 85% more safe." Claims born from idealistic interpretations of scientific results.
Last edited by corrado33; 11-07-14 at 03:25 PM.
#189
Banned
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Lincoln Ne
Posts: 9,924
Bikes: RANS Stratus TerraTrike Tour II
Mentioned: 46 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3352 Post(s)
Liked 1,056 Times
in
635 Posts
This is the forum of the worlds greatest cyclist known to man. They never crash and according to them never will. And-------------even if they do they will never hit their heads.
#190
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Bozeman
Posts: 4,094
Bikes: 199? Landshark Roadshark, 198? Mondonico Diamond, 1987 Panasonic DX-5000, 1987 Bianchi Limited, Univega... Chrome..., 1989 Schwinn Woodlands, Motobecane USA Record, Raleigh Tokul 2
Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1131 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
This type of site makes me VERY angry.
Know The Facts
Sure, let's take the facts and misconstrue to make it look like helmets are the best things since sliced bread.
Well let's see. Let's assume the worst and assume that 20% of people are wearing helmets. Then, from their own facts, 17% of cycling deaths were from people wearing helmets. Those two numbers are pretty much the same, which would mean that helmets do nothing, but that's exactly opposite what the site is saying. It's fear mongering, and very annoying.
I'm not annoyed that it's saying helmets are good. Obviously my bias lies toward not wearing a helmet. I'm annoyed because of their blatant misconstruing of the facts to suit their own purposes. But hey, that's statistics for you hu?
"80% of accidents occur during the day." No crap Sherlock. Most people ride during the day. How about telling us something useful like accidents/number of bikers... Absolute horse crap that site is.
Know The Facts
Sure, let's take the facts and misconstrue to make it look like helmets are the best things since sliced bread.
- 16% (an estimated 8,000) of those injured were 14 years old or younger.
- 80% of accidents occur in daylight.
- Nearly 75% of all fatal bicycle crashes involve head injuries and no more than 17% of those fatally injured were wearing helmets
- In 2009 it was estimated that 9 in 10 bicyclists killed were not wearing helmets.
- Despite these facts, only 20-25% of all bicyclists wear bicycle helmets.
I'm not annoyed that it's saying helmets are good. Obviously my bias lies toward not wearing a helmet. I'm annoyed because of their blatant misconstruing of the facts to suit their own purposes. But hey, that's statistics for you hu?
"80% of accidents occur during the day." No crap Sherlock. Most people ride during the day. How about telling us something useful like accidents/number of bikers... Absolute horse crap that site is.
Last edited by corrado33; 11-07-14 at 03:47 PM.
#191
Tractorlegs
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: El Paso, TX
Posts: 3,185
Bikes: Schwinn Meridian Single-Speed Tricycle
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 119 Post(s)
Liked 60 Times
in
42 Posts
OK 3A, but this time you gotta clean out that dang chimney before I dive down through it. And make sure the fire is out - That's why you didn't get anything last year.
__________________
********************************
Trikeman
Trikeman
#192
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 197
Bikes: Paramount Series 3, Shimano RX-100; Cannondale CAADX, Shimano 105; Cinelli SuperCorsa, SRAM Red; Pinarello Dogma F8, Shimano Dura-Ace Di 2; Firefly Custom Titanium Sram 1x
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 16 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
#193
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 197
Bikes: Paramount Series 3, Shimano RX-100; Cannondale CAADX, Shimano 105; Cinelli SuperCorsa, SRAM Red; Pinarello Dogma F8, Shimano Dura-Ace Di 2; Firefly Custom Titanium Sram 1x
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 16 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
#194
Cycle Dallas
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Land of Gar, TX
Posts: 3,777
Bikes: Dulcinea--2017 Kona Rove & a few others
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 197 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 10 Times
in
5 Posts
Real-world studies are fairly useless in regard to helmet use. Two reasons come to mind, right off the bat.
1. If someone has one of the rare crashes in which there is a head-strike and a helmet protects them from injury, they will not go to a hospital or report it to anyone. Effective helmet occurrences don't get calculated into the studies.
2. If someone has a crash while not wearing a helmet and they don't have a serious injury, they will not go to the hospital or report it to anyone (this includes the billions of people in Asia and Europe cycling without helmets. They have crashes too.) So the largest majority of bicycle crashes are never reported.
Only crashes with serious injury get calculated into any real-world studies. Not exactly reliable statistics there.
1. If someone has one of the rare crashes in which there is a head-strike and a helmet protects them from injury, they will not go to a hospital or report it to anyone. Effective helmet occurrences don't get calculated into the studies.
2. If someone has a crash while not wearing a helmet and they don't have a serious injury, they will not go to the hospital or report it to anyone (this includes the billions of people in Asia and Europe cycling without helmets. They have crashes too.) So the largest majority of bicycle crashes are never reported.
Only crashes with serious injury get calculated into any real-world studies. Not exactly reliable statistics there.
#195
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 197
Bikes: Paramount Series 3, Shimano RX-100; Cannondale CAADX, Shimano 105; Cinelli SuperCorsa, SRAM Red; Pinarello Dogma F8, Shimano Dura-Ace Di 2; Firefly Custom Titanium Sram 1x
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 16 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Real-world studies are fairly useless in regard to helmet use. Two reasons come to mind, right off the bat.
1. If someone has one of the rare crashes in which there is a head-strike and a helmet protects them from injury, they will not go to a hospital or report it to anyone. Effective helmet occurrences don't get calculated into the studies.
2. If someone has a crash while not wearing a helmet and they don't have a serious injury, they will not go to the hospital or report it to anyone (this includes the billions of people in Asia and Europe cycling without helmets. They have crashes too.) So the largest majority of bicycle crashes are never reported.
Only crashes with serious injury get calculated into any real-world studies. Not exactly reliable statistics there.
1. If someone has one of the rare crashes in which there is a head-strike and a helmet protects them from injury, they will not go to a hospital or report it to anyone. Effective helmet occurrences don't get calculated into the studies.
2. If someone has a crash while not wearing a helmet and they don't have a serious injury, they will not go to the hospital or report it to anyone (this includes the billions of people in Asia and Europe cycling without helmets. They have crashes too.) So the largest majority of bicycle crashes are never reported.
Only crashes with serious injury get calculated into any real-world studies. Not exactly reliable statistics there.
There is an inherent risk of falling when you use only two wheels or two feet and must keep your balance at all times. Walking speeds do not present a great risk, but cycling speeds do.
When falling unexpectedly you simply don't know how it is going to be. You may have fallen many times with minor scrapes and the next time break your neck.
It mistifies me the way some people think. They think that if flipping a coin many times and getting only tails, means that a head will never appear. When in fact every flip is independent of all others and has the same odds.
The fact that you have cycled for 50 years without serious injuries, offers absolutely no guarantee about tomorrow. It does say that that the part under you control you do well, being a competent rider and choosing where and when to ride judiciously, but it makes no difference in the parts you do not control, like what others can do to you and the luck you will have.
Last edited by Tiglath; 11-07-14 at 04:41 PM.
#196
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 197
Bikes: Paramount Series 3, Shimano RX-100; Cannondale CAADX, Shimano 105; Cinelli SuperCorsa, SRAM Red; Pinarello Dogma F8, Shimano Dura-Ace Di 2; Firefly Custom Titanium Sram 1x
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 16 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I guess I should make a little box with a long range distance finder that saves a number into memory every time a car passes, then compare results with/without a helmet. (My outer appearance doesn't change much from day to day.)
And I'd have to attempt to ride the EXACT same line every day.
Honestly, the whole idea is easy enough that I may just try it.
EDIT: Even though I mentioned an article that a few of you here have shot down (it's fine, I didn't even read it.), there are many other pieces of evidence on that page I posted from bicyclesafe.com (or whatever the link was.)
Another argument is that a helmet makes your head effectively bigger, meaning you're more likely to hit your (now bigger) head on something.
Another argument is that helmets reduce your ability to hear cars approaching from the rear. I can attest to this problem. I can hear much better without a helmet on.
Lastly, on that same page, they have a paper written (not peer reviewed) by someone at the "Bicycle Helmet Research Foundation". This paper brings a lot of data together regaurding injuries before and after helmet laws were introduced. It's an interesting read, and seems pretty unbiased. It seems like the main point is to disprove claims like "Helmets make cycling 85% more safe." Claims born from idealistic interpretations of scientific results.
And I'd have to attempt to ride the EXACT same line every day.
Honestly, the whole idea is easy enough that I may just try it.
EDIT: Even though I mentioned an article that a few of you here have shot down (it's fine, I didn't even read it.), there are many other pieces of evidence on that page I posted from bicyclesafe.com (or whatever the link was.)
Another argument is that a helmet makes your head effectively bigger, meaning you're more likely to hit your (now bigger) head on something.
Another argument is that helmets reduce your ability to hear cars approaching from the rear. I can attest to this problem. I can hear much better without a helmet on.
Lastly, on that same page, they have a paper written (not peer reviewed) by someone at the "Bicycle Helmet Research Foundation". This paper brings a lot of data together regaurding injuries before and after helmet laws were introduced. It's an interesting read, and seems pretty unbiased. It seems like the main point is to disprove claims like "Helmets make cycling 85% more safe." Claims born from idealistic interpretations of scientific results.
In fact I find amazing that there is any disagreement on this, since erring on the side of caution, if erring at all, involves wearing a very light hat that is not much of an impediment. What's the beef? The contention on the issue is far out of proportion with the issue.
I did not notice any hearing problem with helmets, the helmet does not cover my ears or blocks the sound noticeably. But perhaps I've been to too many rock concerts.
85% safer? Well, exaggeration hurts the argument, and how on earth can people quantify something so subjective? Dead give away there...
#197
Friendship is Magic
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 22,984
Bikes: old ones
Mentioned: 304 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26419 Post(s)
Liked 10,380 Times
in
7,208 Posts
.
...so far this thread is 34% more entertaining than the last Helment Threadtm. And that one was 67% more fun than being beaten with a softball bat.
...so far this thread is 34% more entertaining than the last Helment Threadtm. And that one was 67% more fun than being beaten with a softball bat.
__________________
#198
Cycle Dallas
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Land of Gar, TX
Posts: 3,777
Bikes: Dulcinea--2017 Kona Rove & a few others
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 197 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 10 Times
in
5 Posts
Good observation, but that does not stop people over-analyzing something that can be decide just by thinking about it.
There is an inherent risk of falling when you use only two wheels or two feet and must keep your balance at all times. Walking speeds do not present a great risk, but cycling speeds do.
When falling unexpectedly you simply don't know how it is going to be. You may have fallen many times with minor scrapes and the next time break your neck.
It mistifies me the way some people think. They think that if flipping a coin many times and getting only tails, means that a head will never appear. When in fact every flip is independent of all others and has the same odds.
The fact that you have cycled for 50 years without serious injuries, offers absolutely no guarantee about tomorrow. It does say that that the part under you control you do well, being a competent rider and choosing where and when to ride judiciously, but it makes no difference in the parts you do not control, like what others can do to you and the luck you will have.
There is an inherent risk of falling when you use only two wheels or two feet and must keep your balance at all times. Walking speeds do not present a great risk, but cycling speeds do.
When falling unexpectedly you simply don't know how it is going to be. You may have fallen many times with minor scrapes and the next time break your neck.
It mistifies me the way some people think. They think that if flipping a coin many times and getting only tails, means that a head will never appear. When in fact every flip is independent of all others and has the same odds.
The fact that you have cycled for 50 years without serious injuries, offers absolutely no guarantee about tomorrow. It does say that that the part under you control you do well, being a competent rider and choosing where and when to ride judiciously, but it makes no difference in the parts you do not control, like what others can do to you and the luck you will have.
Your implying that those who don't choose to wear a helmet are somehow incapable of thinking and your mistification at their lack of reason is insulting. So far, I'm afraid you've made only emotional pleas and done little for logically arguing a pro-helmet theory.
#199
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 197
Bikes: Paramount Series 3, Shimano RX-100; Cannondale CAADX, Shimano 105; Cinelli SuperCorsa, SRAM Red; Pinarello Dogma F8, Shimano Dura-Ace Di 2; Firefly Custom Titanium Sram 1x
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 16 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I am a helmet nanny. I've had two crashes that involved head strikes. In one of those, I'm fairly certain that the helmet saved me from more severe injury.
Your implying that those who don't choose to wear a helmet are somehow incapable of thinking and your mistification at their lack of reason is insulting. So far, I'm afraid you've made only emotional pleas and done little for logically arguing a pro-helmet theory.
Your implying that those who don't choose to wear a helmet are somehow incapable of thinking and your mistification at their lack of reason is insulting. So far, I'm afraid you've made only emotional pleas and done little for logically arguing a pro-helmet theory.
You should pay more attention to the the thread. A few post back a fellow stated that he sees no need for a helmet because in fifty years or riding he never hurt his head.
His implicit argument is that fifty years of safe riding mean somehow that he has better odds of not having accidents in the future, and I pointed out that this argument is fallacious. At no point I said this guy is incapable of thinking. And yes it mystifies me because most people don't believe that their future luck depends on their past luck. So bloody what?
If you choose to see insults where none can be found, that is entirely your outlook, and has nothing to do with me. I see how victimhood looks attractive to many for its perks, but equating disagreement, even mystified disagreement, with a verbal attack is inane.
#200
Cycle Dallas
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Land of Gar, TX
Posts: 3,777
Bikes: Dulcinea--2017 Kona Rove & a few others
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 197 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 10 Times
in
5 Posts
Here we go again, putting enough words into my mouth (which I did not write) until you have a case against me. It's a grotesque rhetorical device. Is that all you can contribute?
You should pay more attention to the the thread. A few post back a fellow stated that he sees no need for a helmet because in fifty years or riding he never hurt his head.
His implicit argument is that fifty years of safe riding mean somehow that he has better odds of not having accidents in the future, and I pointed out that this argument is fallacious. At no point I said this guy is incapable of thinking. And yes it mystifies me because most people don't believe that their future luck depends on their past luck. So bloody what?
If you choose to see insults where none can be found, that is entirely your outlook, and has nothing to do with me. I see how victimhood looks attractive to many for its perks, but equating disagreement, even mystified disagreement, with a verbal attack is inane.
You should pay more attention to the the thread. A few post back a fellow stated that he sees no need for a helmet because in fifty years or riding he never hurt his head.
His implicit argument is that fifty years of safe riding mean somehow that he has better odds of not having accidents in the future, and I pointed out that this argument is fallacious. At no point I said this guy is incapable of thinking. And yes it mystifies me because most people don't believe that their future luck depends on their past luck. So bloody what?
If you choose to see insults where none can be found, that is entirely your outlook, and has nothing to do with me. I see how victimhood looks attractive to many for its perks, but equating disagreement, even mystified disagreement, with a verbal attack is inane.
Not putting words in your mouth. You stated:
Implying that anyone who disagrees with you is thoughtless or an idiot is insulting. And I'll reiterate, I do wear my helmet so you're not insulting me. However, you are far from presenting helmet use in a reasoned way.