View Poll Results: What Are Your Helmet Wearing Habits?
I've never worn a bike helmet
52
10.40%
I used to wear a helmet, but have stopped
24
4.80%
I've always worn a helmet
208
41.60%
I didn't wear a helmet, but now do
126
25.20%
I sometimes wear a helmet depending on the conditions
90
18.00%
Voters: 500. You may not vote on this poll
The Helmet Thread 2
10-09-15, 02:10 PM
#1651
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I am honestly perplexed about your distinction, unless by "routine" you mean that it's easier in a dojo with the padded floor and you know it's coming. But the whole point of it is being able to perform the fall or roll in real conditions, at full speeds. I'm not anywhere skilled as a black belt or gymnast, but I consider a bike fall to be a routine use of those techniques, at any normal biking speed.
In martial arts (eg judo/aikido), it's routine/typical/common/regular to "fall" (especially in training/practice). That is, everybody falls, frequently.
Falling when bicycling is considered fairly exceptional (even when training). Falls are rare for the vast majority of cyclists.
Obviously, the two things are not the same.
Avoiding falls is your first line of defense. That's not always possible, and when it does happen we are vastly better off knowing how. I sometimes get the sense that people who are dismissive of those skills don't really understand what I'm talking about, or they just don't believe that it's possible. Wearing a helmet is the last line of defense, when your training cannot prevent a head impact.
Last edited by njkayaker; 10-09-15 at 02:25 PM.
10-09-15, 02:21 PM
#1652
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This page is about traumatic brain injury, so the reader should keep in mind that it's a subset of the more general "head injury". Nevertheless it proves that it's a fact.
Or in a nice chart from the CDC regarding general non-fatal injuries:
For statistics on the cause of falls you need a different source, sources for which I have cited previously on this thread. If you're that interested, and familiar enough with my writing to attempt that kind of personal attack, I'm sure you've seen it or can find it.
There are any number of external variables which correlate with the probability of falls, and age is one of them. But your objection is misplaced because I am not demonstrating a correlation beyond a very general activity. Notice in the chart above, the high ranking of accidental falls in all age groups.
10-09-15, 02:32 PM
#1653
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Anti-helmet "zeolots exist only in the nightmares of rydabent and others of his ilk, or as straw man arguments for BF rhetorical funnymen.
10-09-15, 02:35 PM
#1654
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???
In martial arts (eg judo/aikido), it's routine/typical/common/regular to "fall" (especially in training/practice). That is, everybody falls, frequently.
Falling when bicycling is considered fairly exceptional (even when training). Falls are rare for the vast majority of cyclists.
Obviously, the two things are not the same.
In martial arts (eg judo/aikido), it's routine/typical/common/regular to "fall" (especially in training/practice). That is, everybody falls, frequently.
Falling when bicycling is considered fairly exceptional (even when training). Falls are rare for the vast majority of cyclists.
Obviously, the two things are not the same.
Even though one event is more infrequent that the other, they may still be the same technique, the same actions. Recall that you said "Bicycle falls aren't very much like those things." Frequency doesn't seem to a very logical distinction in that context. Are you sure that's what you meant, or did you have something else in mind when you wrote it?
10-09-15, 07:43 PM
#1655
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10-09-15, 09:47 PM
#1656
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You mean "infrequent" then. Routine is something that is practiced and invariant, as much as practicable. In this context, since we're talking about people who have trained for falls and rolling (so that it is routine for them), it doesn't make much sense to say that it is not routine for them on the bike unless there is some physical differentiation.
Even though one event is more infrequent that the other, they may still be the same technique, the same actions. Recall that you said "Bicycle falls aren't very much like those things." Frequency doesn't seem to a very logical distinction in that context. Are you sure that's what you meant, or did you have something else in mind when you wrote it?
Even though one event is more infrequent that the other, they may still be the same technique, the same actions. Recall that you said "Bicycle falls aren't very much like those things." Frequency doesn't seem to a very logical distinction in that context. Are you sure that's what you meant, or did you have something else in mind when you wrote it?
There is probably a much wider variation in bicycle falls. Involving things like bicycles, higher speeds, vehicles, harder surfaces, etc. Different in many cases. Obviously.
It doesn't seem like the two are much alike at all.
Last edited by njkayaker; 10-09-15 at 09:52 PM.
10-10-15, 07:22 AM
#1657
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So what? Do you wear your Colorado pickup when you walk up or down stairs, take a shower, or venture outside the friendly confines of your living room couch? Would not your precious "no burden at all" helmet offer additional "protection" even when driving your air bag equipped Colorado pickup? If you do not wear your helmet at these times/all the time for any additional protection that you believe it offers, why not, since it is "no burden at all"?
So------------as you can see I have access to passive safety equiptment when Im not cycling. Pretty much blows all to hell one of the biggest arguments anti helmet people have doesnt it.
Oh------------and I dont run with scissors, stick beans up my nose, and pet porcupines. Any other non cycling activity that pretty much dont belong on a cycling forum you want to bring up?
10-10-15, 08:56 AM
#1658
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It's normal and very frequent in one case and exceptional and very rare in the other. It's awfully close to routine in the martial arts.
There is probably a much wider variation in bicycle falls. Involving things like bicycles, higher speeds, vehicles, harder surfaces, etc. Different in many cases. Obviously.
It doesn't seem like the two are much alike at all.
There is probably a much wider variation in bicycle falls. Involving things like bicycles, higher speeds, vehicles, harder surfaces, etc. Different in many cases. Obviously.
It doesn't seem like the two are much alike at all.
I learned a couple of falls, not even martial arts, and discovered that the earlier impression was wrong. I still had help from the self-taught skills from before, but a motorcycle crash at high speeds was no longer uncontrolled violence. You can control your body in ways to eliminate injury. It was only later that I learned some more advanced methods from martial arts, and I did practice them on all surfaces and full speed, and I know now that it's exactly the same when falling from a bike. You're right, it doesn't seem like it would be, but it is.
The only time I've had a hard hit to the head by the way, or hard enough to matter, was when I was 17 doing jumps on a motorcycle. I was wearing a helmet at the time. I've never done more than scrape the backside of a helmet on a bicycle crash. From my experience therefore, knowing how is far, far more effective than is the helmet itself and I don't see how any sport worthy of safety equipment is also not worthy of training for the same incidents.
I'm pretty sure that I don't want to try a straight backfall or normal shoulder roll with an aero helmet. With a normal Bell helmet I haven't really noticed it in the way, except for the light scratches that one time. Somewhere in between, the helmets will become dangerous and I think that it's something pretty important to know. These articles and studies present it as speculative, even the one that skye linked, but someone who is really good at the techniques could strap one on, try it and tell us. I'm not trained well enough that I want to take the risk.
10-10-15, 11:27 AM
#1659
Senior Member
So you think you don't need helmet because you have those preventive measures.
That's exactly we, who don't regularly wear cycling helmet do. We make sure to be highly visible and use bright head and tail lights in the dark. This helps prevent being hit, reducing accident likelihood, though not guaranteed to eliminate it.
If the above is too much to be clear to you, in simple words:
Hand rails in shower and on stairs ~ high-visibility + bike lights during cycling ===> Accident prevention
Wearing helmet on stairs and in showers ~ wearing helmet while cycling ====> In case an accident does occur
No helmet on stairs and in showers ~ No helmet while cycling ===> Head trauma if an accident does occur in which one's head gets hit
So------------as you can see I have access to passive safety equiptment when Im not cycling. Pretty much blows all to hell one of the biggest arguments anti helmet people have doesnt it.
I hope this post has convinced you that you do need to wear a helmet in the shower and on the stairs.
10-10-15, 06:21 PM
#1660
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Oh, please.
Seatbelts and airbags are *NOT* accident prevention - they are personal protection devices. (Well, admittedly seatbelts also do have a bit of preventive benefit. But that's not their primary function in street automobiles.)
Yet you are so anti-helmet that you insist that automobile drivers and passengers wear helmets.
Are the bunch of you all done with your mutual rhetorgasms yet?
-mr. bill
Seatbelts and airbags are *NOT* accident prevention - they are personal protection devices. (Well, admittedly seatbelts also do have a bit of preventive benefit. But that's not their primary function in street automobiles.)
Yet you are so anti-helmet that you insist that automobile drivers and passengers wear helmets.
Are the bunch of you all done with your mutual rhetorgasms yet?
-mr. bill
Last edited by mr_bill; 10-10-15 at 08:40 PM.
10-11-15, 02:42 PM
#1661
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Trying to see this from your point of view, I realize that as a young man I'd have completely agreed with you. I was on motorcycles constantly, a lot of dirt-biking on them, also on road motorbikes and a little motocross and enduro, always pushing the limits and crashing all the time. I thought that I was pretty good at it, and I would have said that my main impression of a crash at 25 mph or better, road or dirt, was that it felt incredibly violent. The ground pummels you, trees and rocks banging on your body, even a brief touch of the road surface abrades your skin. It does seem like they're two different things.
I learned a couple of falls, not even martial arts, and discovered that the earlier impression was wrong. I still had help from the self-taught skills from before, but a motorcycle crash at high speeds was no longer uncontrolled violence. You can control your body in ways to eliminate injury. It was only later that I learned some more advanced methods from martial arts, and I did practice them on all surfaces and full speed, and I know now that it's exactly the same when falling from a bike. You're right, it doesn't seem like it would be, but it is.
The only time I've had a hard hit to the head by the way, or hard enough to matter, was when I was 17 doing jumps on a motorcycle. I was wearing a helmet at the time. I've never done more than scrape the backside of a helmet on a bicycle crash. From my experience therefore, knowing how is far, far more effective than is the helmet itself and I don't see how any sport worthy of safety equipment is also not worthy of training for the same incidents.
I'm pretty sure that I don't want to try a straight backfall or normal shoulder roll with an aero helmet. With a normal Bell helmet I haven't really noticed it in the way, except for the light scratches that one time. Somewhere in between, the helmets will become dangerous and I think that it's something pretty important to know. These articles and studies present it as speculative, even the one that skye linked, but someone who is really good at the techniques could strap one on, try it and tell us. I'm not trained well enough that I want to take the risk.
I learned a couple of falls, not even martial arts, and discovered that the earlier impression was wrong. I still had help from the self-taught skills from before, but a motorcycle crash at high speeds was no longer uncontrolled violence. You can control your body in ways to eliminate injury. It was only later that I learned some more advanced methods from martial arts, and I did practice them on all surfaces and full speed, and I know now that it's exactly the same when falling from a bike. You're right, it doesn't seem like it would be, but it is.
The only time I've had a hard hit to the head by the way, or hard enough to matter, was when I was 17 doing jumps on a motorcycle. I was wearing a helmet at the time. I've never done more than scrape the backside of a helmet on a bicycle crash. From my experience therefore, knowing how is far, far more effective than is the helmet itself and I don't see how any sport worthy of safety equipment is also not worthy of training for the same incidents.
I'm pretty sure that I don't want to try a straight backfall or normal shoulder roll with an aero helmet. With a normal Bell helmet I haven't really noticed it in the way, except for the light scratches that one time. Somewhere in between, the helmets will become dangerous and I think that it's something pretty important to know. These articles and studies present it as speculative, even the one that skye linked, but someone who is really good at the techniques could strap one on, try it and tell us. I'm not trained well enough that I want to take the risk.
If you are spending a lot of time crashing, it might be worthwhile practicing. If crashing is a rare and exceptional event, it might not be.
10-11-15, 05:19 PM
#1662
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If you just meant that in general, yes that's true and the same applies to wearing a helmet. My point is that the skills are worth more, more effective, than the helmet. Anyone requiring a helmet should more logically be acquiring the skills.
Last edited by wphamilton; 10-11-15 at 05:40 PM.
10-12-15, 03:50 AM
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Helmeted riders: 58% lower odds of severe brain injury
"The researchers found that among this group of patients—those who sustained traumatic brain injury after a bicycle related accident—the ones wearing helmets had a 58 percent reduced odds of severe traumatic brain injury and a 59 percent reduced odds of death. Further, the use of helmets reduced by 61 percent the odds of craniotomy (an operation to remove part of the bone from the skull to expose the brain) and facial fractures by 26 percent. "
https://www.facs.org/media/press-releases/2015/haider
https://www.facs.org/media/press-releases/2015/haider
10-12-15, 08:52 AM
#1667
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I wasn't soliciting your advice. And no I do not crash frequently.
If you just meant that in general, yes that's true and the same applies to wearing a helmet. My point is that the skills are worth more, more effective, than the helmet. Anyone requiring a helmet should more logically be acquiring the skills.
If you just meant that in general, yes that's true and the same applies to wearing a helmet. My point is that the skills are worth more, more effective, than the helmet. Anyone requiring a helmet should more logically be acquiring the skills.
10-12-15, 09:47 AM
#1668
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10-12-15, 10:06 AM
#1669
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"The researchers found that among this group of patients—those who sustained traumatic brain injury after a bicycle related accident—the ones wearing helmets had a 58 percent reduced odds of severe traumatic brain injury and a 59 percent reduced odds of death. Further, the use of helmets reduced by 61 percent the odds of craniotomy (an operation to remove part of the bone from the skull to expose the brain) and facial fractures by 26 percent. "
https://www.facs.org/media/press-releases/2015/haider
https://www.facs.org/media/press-releases/2015/haider
Agreed
Last edited by Chris516; 10-12-15 at 10:11 AM.
10-12-15, 10:22 AM
#1671
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Good thing we have these experts to let us know that helmets protect the head. If they want to raise awareness of helmets or make better helmets that's fine but I stop short of creating more laws. Anyone not wearing a helmet today is of age and a casual rider around town or just dumb.
We can get on New Yorks case. They provide citibikes to any random tourist in a place with possibly the worst cycling infrastructure of any major city and i dont believe they come with helmets. You'd have to be mad to try and ride around the nitty gritty there on a rented bike. Makes me wonder who the average citibike rider is and where they go on them.
We can get on New Yorks case. They provide citibikes to any random tourist in a place with possibly the worst cycling infrastructure of any major city and i dont believe they come with helmets. You'd have to be mad to try and ride around the nitty gritty there on a rented bike. Makes me wonder who the average citibike rider is and where they go on them.
10-12-15, 01:30 PM
#1675
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"The researchers found that among this group of patients—those who sustained traumatic brain injury after a bicycle related accident—the ones wearing helmets had a 58 percent reduced odds of severe traumatic brain injury and a 59 percent reduced odds of death. Further, the use of helmets reduced by 61 percent the odds of craniotomy (an operation to remove part of the bone from the skull to expose the brain) and facial fractures by 26 percent. "
That's why it's important to wear a helmet on the stairs or in the shower, according to the logic of some people.
Still looking forward to a reply to my post #1659 (#1660 was not a direct reply since seat belts and airbags were not mentioned in #1657 or #1659).