If you want to kill someone, hit them with your car...
11-29-14, 10:14 AM
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genec
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If you want to kill someone, hit them with your car...
For cyclists who are hit, a major frustration is how infrequently drivers are caught. The Los Angeles Police Department closed one in five hit-and-runs from 2008 to 2012, meaning about 80% were unresolved, according to data the department reported last year to the Board of Police Commissioners. Less than half of those cases were closed through an arrest.
The chance of being convicted is so slim that "if you wanted to murder someone, it would almost be better to just hit them with your car," said Assemblyman Mike Gatto (D-Los Angeles), who has pushed for stiffer hit-and-run penalties.
The chance of being convicted is so slim that "if you wanted to murder someone, it would almost be better to just hit them with your car," said Assemblyman Mike Gatto (D-Los Angeles), who has pushed for stiffer hit-and-run penalties.
There is a troubling trend...
Hit-and-run collisions involving bicyclists surged 42% from 2002 to 2012 in Los Angeles County, according to a Times analysis of California Highway Patrol crash data.
The increase came as the overall number of hit-and-runs involving cars, cyclists and pedestrians dropped by 30%. Between 2002 and 2012, the most recent data available, more than 5,600 cyclists were injured and at least 36 died in crashes in which drivers fled the scene.
The increase came as the overall number of hit-and-runs involving cars, cyclists and pedestrians dropped by 30%. Between 2002 and 2012, the most recent data available, more than 5,600 cyclists were injured and at least 36 died in crashes in which drivers fled the scene.
Some drivers see cyclists simply as another object slowing down their commute, said Ted Rogers, a cyclist and advocate who writes the blog Biking in LA. The sheer size of Los Angeles allows others to believe that they can escape unnoticed. Neither attitude will change until the laws do, Rogers said.
11-29-14, 10:48 AM
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I have claimed this point for years. If you are so deranged you want to kill someone, buy them a bike and just run over them. Most of the time you wont suffer much more than a slap on the wrist.
This seems to the the sad fact with the justice system we have.
This seems to the the sad fact with the justice system we have.
11-29-14, 11:31 AM
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Ones expectations and coping skills shouldn't be defined by spread sheets or headlines.
11-29-14, 05:14 PM
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Los Angeles Police Department closed one in five hit-and-runs from 2008 to 2012, meaning about 80% were unresolved
scott s.
.
11-30-14, 01:26 AM
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The law is part of the problem. If you are drink driving and hit someone the incentive is 100% to hit and run. 80% of the time you get away scot free. The folks who get caught have multiple defenses to DUI charges and the hit and run penalties are even weaker than the ones for DUI.
If the law creates lousy incentives you can expect lousy results. We're rewarding people for doing the wrong thing after they've already committed a crime.
In a situation where it's difficult to chase down wrongdoers and the harm to society is very real, they should be crucifying those that they catch. Instead you get stories about hit and run offenders who left their victims for dead, got sentenced to 120 days in jail (not prison), actually served only two, and have so far paid the victim a couple dozen dollars in restitution. That's not much of a cautionary tale.
If the law creates lousy incentives you can expect lousy results. We're rewarding people for doing the wrong thing after they've already committed a crime.
In a situation where it's difficult to chase down wrongdoers and the harm to society is very real, they should be crucifying those that they catch. Instead you get stories about hit and run offenders who left their victims for dead, got sentenced to 120 days in jail (not prison), actually served only two, and have so far paid the victim a couple dozen dollars in restitution. That's not much of a cautionary tale.
Last edited by Saving Hawaii; 11-30-14 at 01:31 AM.
11-30-14, 01:49 AM
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"There is a direct correlation between the increase in ******baggery among L.A. cyclists and the rate of ******bag cyclists getting run over in L.A." Some Idiot Politician (D-Los Angeles)
IOW, let's look at the rate of drunken fixie hipsterism in L.A. and see how closely it matches the cyclist fatality rate. Then we can overlay it with a map of brainless Dem politicians (but I repeat myself) in L.A. and see, five-will-get-you-ten, an almost perfect correlation.
Then, of course, we can compare and contrast it with the rate of breathless A&S posts about how we are all potential victims and why won't someone do something, but then the math gets too complicated for me.
IOW, let's look at the rate of drunken fixie hipsterism in L.A. and see how closely it matches the cyclist fatality rate. Then we can overlay it with a map of brainless Dem politicians (but I repeat myself) in L.A. and see, five-will-get-you-ten, an almost perfect correlation.
Then, of course, we can compare and contrast it with the rate of breathless A&S posts about how we are all potential victims and why won't someone do something, but then the math gets too complicated for me.
11-30-14, 01:56 AM
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As a society we view drunk driving and the resultant carnage as a mistake that normal people make. It's the difference between two drinks and six. Of course you're gonna drive home, you just had a few too many. Criminal penalties are lenient. Civil repercussions are minimal. You won't ever face the stigma that a shoplifter or drug dealer deals with. You're basically okay. The guy you killed or maimed not so much but you didn't know him anyway. The emotional torment makes you just as much the victim and society sympathizes with that.
Last edited by Saving Hawaii; 11-30-14 at 12:02 PM.
11-30-14, 02:05 AM
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"There is a direct correlation between the increase in ******baggery among L.A. cyclists and the rate of ******bag cyclists getting run over in L.A." Some Idiot Politician (D-Los Angeles)
IOW, let's look at the rate of drunken fixie hipsterism in L.A. and see how closely it matches the cyclist fatality rate. Then we can overlay it with a map of brainless Dem politicians (but I repeat myself) in L.A. and see, five-will-get-you-ten, an almost perfect correlation.
Then, of course, we can compare and contrast it with the rate of breathless A&S posts about how we are all potential victims and why won't someone do something, but then the math gets too complicated for me.
IOW, let's look at the rate of drunken fixie hipsterism in L.A. and see how closely it matches the cyclist fatality rate. Then we can overlay it with a map of brainless Dem politicians (but I repeat myself) in L.A. and see, five-will-get-you-ten, an almost perfect correlation.
Then, of course, we can compare and contrast it with the rate of breathless A&S posts about how we are all potential victims and why won't someone do something, but then the math gets too complicated for me.
11-30-14, 01:43 PM
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IMO- we have a mix of an unfortunate, stupid statement mixed with raw statistical data that may be misleading (no saying it is , just that it may be).
Years ago, it was understood that the way to kill someone in NYC was to do it as a staged mugging. Likewise, I assume it's still possible to disguise a murder as another crime, such as a hit and run (not a new concept). "Chance encounter" crimes are investigated differently, so unless the police suspect it was staged, they won't be looking for motives within the victim's circle.
As to the data, there's no way of knowing what it means. Raw data on incidence doesn't offer much by way of insight unless there's a base line. For example the increase in car/bicycle hit and runs might simply reflect more bicyclists on the roads (relative to cars or pedestrians). It might also reflect a change in the mix of experienced to inexperirnced rider, the times and places people ride, or any number of other variables.
What might be more telling is to compare the number of car/bicycle hit and run to the total number of car/bicycle accidents. Or compare the incidence to the total (estimated) number of bicyclists on the roads to find a rate.
So, while I don't challenge the accuracy of the data, I don't draw conclusions from it either. I invite those involved to use the numbers as a jumping off point to further investigate the underlying reality.
Keep in mind that any growth in bicycling participation, especially on weekday roads is going to mean an increase in everything related, from head injuries, ER visits, accidents, fatalities and so on. This can happen even while the rate may be unchanged, increasing or declining.
BTW- count me among those suggesting that we need to prosecute hit and runs more seriously.
Years ago, it was understood that the way to kill someone in NYC was to do it as a staged mugging. Likewise, I assume it's still possible to disguise a murder as another crime, such as a hit and run (not a new concept). "Chance encounter" crimes are investigated differently, so unless the police suspect it was staged, they won't be looking for motives within the victim's circle.
As to the data, there's no way of knowing what it means. Raw data on incidence doesn't offer much by way of insight unless there's a base line. For example the increase in car/bicycle hit and runs might simply reflect more bicyclists on the roads (relative to cars or pedestrians). It might also reflect a change in the mix of experienced to inexperirnced rider, the times and places people ride, or any number of other variables.
What might be more telling is to compare the number of car/bicycle hit and run to the total number of car/bicycle accidents. Or compare the incidence to the total (estimated) number of bicyclists on the roads to find a rate.
So, while I don't challenge the accuracy of the data, I don't draw conclusions from it either. I invite those involved to use the numbers as a jumping off point to further investigate the underlying reality.
Keep in mind that any growth in bicycling participation, especially on weekday roads is going to mean an increase in everything related, from head injuries, ER visits, accidents, fatalities and so on. This can happen even while the rate may be unchanged, increasing or declining.
BTW- count me among those suggesting that we need to prosecute hit and runs more seriously.
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11-30-14, 06:04 PM
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Though if running someone down when riding a bicycle is the chosen method used to murder them, then its not really a hit-and-run, or a cycling issue, its premeditated murder which is a more serious crime.
11-30-14, 10:28 PM
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IMO- we have a mix of an unfortunate, stupid statement mixed with raw statistical data that may be misleading (no saying it is , just that it may be).
Years ago, it was understood that the way to kill someone in NYC was to do it as a staged mugging. Likewise, I assume it's still possible to disguise a murder as another crime, such as a hit and run (not a new concept). "Chance encounter" crimes are investigated differently, so unless the police suspect it was staged, they won't be looking for motives within the victim's circle.
As to the data, there's no way of knowing what it means. Raw data on incidence doesn't offer much by way of insight unless there's a base line. For example the increase in car/bicycle hit and runs might simply reflect more bicyclists on the roads (relative to cars or pedestrians). It might also reflect a change in the mix of experienced to inexperirnced rider, the times and places people ride, or any number of other variables.
What might be more telling is to compare the number of car/bicycle hit and run to the total number of car/bicycle accidents. Or compare the incidence to the total (estimated) number of bicyclists on the roads to find a rate.
So, while I don't challenge the accuracy of the data, I don't draw conclusions from it either. I invite those involved to use the numbers as a jumping off point to further investigate the underlying reality.
Keep in mind that any growth in bicycling participation, especially on weekday roads is going to mean an increase in everything related, from head injuries, ER visits, accidents, fatalities and so on. This can happen even while the rate may be unchanged, increasing or declining.
BTW- count me among those suggesting that we need to prosecute hit and runs more seriously.
Years ago, it was understood that the way to kill someone in NYC was to do it as a staged mugging. Likewise, I assume it's still possible to disguise a murder as another crime, such as a hit and run (not a new concept). "Chance encounter" crimes are investigated differently, so unless the police suspect it was staged, they won't be looking for motives within the victim's circle.
As to the data, there's no way of knowing what it means. Raw data on incidence doesn't offer much by way of insight unless there's a base line. For example the increase in car/bicycle hit and runs might simply reflect more bicyclists on the roads (relative to cars or pedestrians). It might also reflect a change in the mix of experienced to inexperirnced rider, the times and places people ride, or any number of other variables.
What might be more telling is to compare the number of car/bicycle hit and run to the total number of car/bicycle accidents. Or compare the incidence to the total (estimated) number of bicyclists on the roads to find a rate.
So, while I don't challenge the accuracy of the data, I don't draw conclusions from it either. I invite those involved to use the numbers as a jumping off point to further investigate the underlying reality.
Keep in mind that any growth in bicycling participation, especially on weekday roads is going to mean an increase in everything related, from head injuries, ER visits, accidents, fatalities and so on. This can happen even while the rate may be unchanged, increasing or declining.
BTW- count me among those suggesting that we need to prosecute hit and runs more seriously.
Last edited by Six jours; 11-30-14 at 10:38 PM.
12-01-14, 09:05 AM
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For the most part the police do their job and track down the hit and run driver. It is the courts that fail to give the victim justice.
12-01-14, 09:36 AM
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According to the article, the police only find one in five hit and run drivers... It isn't the courts that are the problem... I doubt it is the police that are the issue either... likely the evidence is pretty scant.
12-20-14, 06:33 AM
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Tanks are more fun, although running on roads can be rough on the rear.
Tanks need fat seats like cruisers.
Tanks need fat seats like cruisers.
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12-20-14, 08:14 AM
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Sadly the bottom line is: Shoot someone with a *** = bad
Kill someone with a car = no big deal
Kill someone with a car = no big deal
12-20-14, 09:35 AM
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The real bottom line is that emotional whining and/or hysterical ranting based on a newspaper headline or Internet blog factoid carries the day on A&S.
12-22-14, 08:37 AM
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I enjoy a good whiny thread on Anarchy & Schisms!
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12-22-14, 09:37 AM
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IMO, cycling is an increasingly important political wedge issue. I expect we will see increasing sociopathy on the road as the dehumanization of cyclists is played for political benefit/votes.
12-22-14, 10:52 AM
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12-22-14, 10:52 AM
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12-22-14, 11:21 AM
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But then again, you probably didn't bother to read about the increase in hit and run collisions with cyclists in LA...