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Law Enforcement

Old 12-06-14, 08:56 PM
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Originally Posted by B. Carfree
Isn't there a Northern European country that does just that? I seem to recall some rock star facing a speeding fine of hundreds of thousands of dollars.
Apparently there are several:
Speeding fines being linked to income in Europe - SFGate
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Old 12-06-14, 09:51 PM
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Originally Posted by B. Carfree
There is the real possibility that this is of their own doing. According to the "Broken Window" model of law enforcement, by refusing to enforce traffic law police have allowed for the idea that "low-level" crimes will not be prosecuted to flourish. As I recall, when I lived where police did traffic law enforcement, they generally solved burglaries before the crimes were reported during a traffic stop.
I remember reading about Rudy Giuliani taking just that approach during his term as mayor. He went after the small stuff, and it worked wonders.

We could also automate traffic enforcement to some degree. Photo radar always generated public backlash, but only because people don't like to get caught.
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Old 12-06-14, 10:27 PM
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Interesting take on "there oughta be a law" mentality:

Law Puts Us All in Same Danger as Eric Garner
On the opening day of law school, I always counsel my first-year students never to support a law they are not willing to kill to enforce. Usually they greet this advice with something between skepticism and puzzlement, until I remind them that the police go armed to enforce the will of the state, and if you resist, they might kill you.

I wish this caution were only theoretical. It isn’t. Whatever your view on the refusal of a New York City grand jury to indict the police officer whose chokehold apparently led to the death of Eric Garner, it’s useful to remember the crime that Garner is alleged to have committed: He was selling individual cigarettes, or loosies, in violation of New York law.

...

Wrote Nick Gillespie in the Daily Beast, “Clearly something has gone horribly wrong when a man lies dead after being confronted for selling cigarettes to willing buyers.”

...there will never be a perfect technology of law enforcement, and therefore it is unavoidable that there will be situations where police err on the side of too much violence rather than too little. Better training won’t lead to perfection. But fewer laws would mean fewer opportunities for official violence to get out of hand.

... Every new law requires enforcement; every act of enforcement includes the possibility of violence. ...
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Old 12-06-14, 11:01 PM
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This is an interesting article on Ferguson and the use of traffic fines as a revenue source in lieu of taxes. Riot-torn Ferguson's distrust of police flows from a city run on fines - World - CBC News

We have to distinguish between a cash grab and legitimate enforcement/education. Based on what I see every day, there is much more of the former.
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Old 12-06-14, 11:29 PM
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Originally Posted by asmac

We have to distinguish between a cash grab and legitimate enforcement/education. Based on what I see every day, there is much more of the former.
Uh, sure. Where I live most motorists are convinced that the small towns along Hwy 99W have their cops lurking all night just to perform a cash grab, since where's the big public risk at 3:00 AM? I had a temporary gig once where I drove tanker trucks along there at night. As a responsible driver, I never had to worry about getting a ticket. However, one night about 3:00 AM I was quite pleased that I was travelling well below the posted speed limit when several drunk young people literally fell out into the road. I was able to watch the whole thing unfold without putting their lives at risk. Had I been driving like most people, 5-10 mph over the posted limit, there would have been three dead people.

Traffic law enforcement is legit. If you get a citation, you were breaking the law and it is whiny to complain about paying this completely voluntary "tax".
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Old 12-06-14, 11:29 PM
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Originally Posted by El Cid
I would charge at least a $1000 fine for absolutely all moving violations. In my opinion, there is no such thing as a minor infraction. Breaking the law is always serious.
You're pulling our legs, right? Why stop at fines? We need prison for jaywalkers and the lash for sidewalk spitters. That'll learn 'em.
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Old 12-06-14, 11:38 PM
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Originally Posted by B. Carfree
Traffic law enforcement is legit. If you get a citation, you were breaking the law and it is whiny to complain about paying this completely voluntary "tax".
And when 'law enforcers' rely on fines they collect to pay their own salaries it's pretty much a corrupt system.
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Old 12-07-14, 12:19 AM
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Looks like someone is off their medications.
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Old 12-07-14, 12:21 AM
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Originally Posted by asmac
And when 'law enforcers' rely on fines they collect to pay their own salaries it's pretty much a corrupt system.
It's my understanding that police, pretty well anywhere in Canada or the U.S., get a salary. Is the police budget affected in any way by traffic fines?
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Old 12-07-14, 12:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Rollfast
...... Those who believe in zero harm are living in a Thomas More book. Utopia was Todd Rundgren's band.
+1

The best way to eliminate bicycling injuries.... is to make cycling illegal. And I've always thought that is where the "safety advocates" are heading.

Originally Posted by asmac
...... Why stop at fines? We need prison for jaywalkers and the lash for sidewalk spitters. That'll learn 'em.
+1

The true solution is to incarcerate the entire population.... and then control the prisoners through work-release programs and half-way houses.

Last edited by Dave Cutter; 12-07-14 at 12:29 AM.
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Old 12-07-14, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by El Cid
It's my understanding that police, pretty well anywhere in Canada or the U.S., get a salary. Is the police budget affected in any way by traffic fines?
Where do you think the money collected via fines goes? Police departments have a huge incentive to collect fines just for the sake of taking in money.
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Old 12-07-14, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by achoo
Where do you think the money collected via fines goes? Police departments have a huge incentive to collect fines just for the sake of taking in money.
Fair enough; I just thought fines went into general revenue. When it comes to corruption and how police are overseen, that's a whole other problem. But I still believe that more basic traffic enforcement and stiffer penalties for all road users who break the law would be a good thing.
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Old 12-07-14, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by El Cid
But I still believe that more basic traffic enforcement and stiffer penalties for all road users who break the law would be a good thing.
It is, but the law is threatening to those who are the selfish, disruptive, or non productive, and ironically they are the reason the law exists in the first place.

The pattern is obvious to most people.
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Old 12-07-14, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by El Cid
It's my understanding that police, pretty well anywhere in Canada or the U.S., get a salary. Is the police budget affected in any way by traffic fines?
According to the article I posted, police in little places like Ferguson depend on fines to finance their operations as there is no local tax base.

More generally, I conclude from the emphasis police place on bulk ticketing for trivial offenses and their apparent unwillingness to enforce more difficult serious offenses that there is some connection between traffic fines and funding though not a direct one. Parking fines (enforced by the courts) are a direct city money-maker, of course.
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Old 12-07-14, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Rollfast
If you are, you have missed the whole point.

We are here to promote the safer co-existence between all vehicles on the road together, and in general, bicycles being in harmony with auto traffic.
I believe in santa claus and the tooth fairy too.

PS: An entrenched majority that benefits from an unequal and unfair status quo is almost always opposed to change.

Last edited by spare_wheel; 12-07-14 at 12:35 PM.
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Old 12-07-14, 12:12 PM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by Rollfast
Stay out of their way then.

What is so hard about that?

You fail to understand one thing...

If you were to tell me you are smarter than a locomotive I would have to tell you that the train doesn't care and won't come to a stop until it's a mile from your bugsplatter.

Apples and oranges. Never take a knife to a gunfight. Don't argue with anything that can easily kill you.

It's not a matter of your CIVIL RIGHTS. You only live once.

Keep pointing it out and work to get it prosecuted but don't assume you are going to stop it by your lone self.

Life isn't a mandatory arbitration. Things will suck and may never stop sucking. Work on that.
So exactly hows does one "stay out of their way?" Unlike trains, the drivers that consider themselves badass and just roam the streets looking for some form of trouble to tangle with, do not exactly run on very visible rails... they may look just like any other motorist, until "the confrontation" occurs.

Perhaps they should just wear orange uniforms so we can identify them right way... eh?
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Old 12-07-14, 12:13 PM
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This is not rocket science.

Why yurpeeuhns don't slaughter as many human beings with their cars, trucks, and suvs.

1. Mandatory drivers education (often part of core educational curriculum).
2. Very strict licensing and testing requirements (sometimes with periodic re-review).
3. Liability laws that put the onus on motorists to not slaughter human beings.
4. Lower speed limits along with traffic reconfiguration that encourages safety in areas with vulnerable human beings.
5. Ubiquitous speed/signal cameras and CCTV.
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Old 12-07-14, 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Chris516
I disagree with both. Yes drunk drivers are dangerous, and so are drivers that don't pay attention.

But I think the 'me first' drivers are worse. Because, Drunk drivers while drunk, don't have a 'drunks first' attitude, just ignorance. Although the 'ignorant' drivers do seem to be in close competition with the 'me first' drivers'. Because the 'me first' drivers, don't give a darn who is on the road. They are the first ones' to commit road rage. Drunks don't commit road rage with premeditated intention, and 'ignorant' drivers' just aren't paying attention. But 'me first' drivers are BOTH.......selfish and ignorant
Drunk driving is me-first driving-selfish and ignorant. ​So is texting and driving.
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Old 12-07-14, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Rollfast
Stay out of their way then.

What is so hard about that?

Lie back and think of england...


If you were to tell me you are smarter than a locomotive I would have to tell you that the train doesn't care and won't come to a stop until it's a mile from your bugsplatter.
Apples and oranges. Never take a knife to a gunfight. Don't argue with anything that can easily kill you.
It's not a matter of your CIVIL RIGHTS. You only live once.
Keep pointing it out and work to get it prosecuted but don't assume you are going to stop it by your lone self.
I view your comment as a "stay out of the way or we/they will kill you" threat. It's intended to intimidate and cow a minority that challenges societal norms.

It's also pure unadulterated hogwash. Even in the USA cycling for transportation is safe. My neighbors do not want to kill me for riding in the lane.

Last edited by spare_wheel; 12-07-14 at 12:32 PM.
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Old 12-07-14, 12:59 PM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by spare_wheel
This is not rocket science.

Why yurpeeuhns don't slaughter as many human beings with their cars, trucks, and suvs.

1. Mandatory drivers education (often part of core educational curriculum).
2. Very strict licensing and testing requirements (sometimes with periodic re-review).
3. Liability laws that put the onus on motorists to not slaughter human beings.
4. Lower speed limits along with traffic reconfiguration that encourages safety in areas with vulnerable human beings.
5. Ubiquitous speed/signal cameras and CCTV.
Nice, but so much of that would be whined about by those that would shout "freedom freedom" while talking about those liability laws and the cameras.
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Old 12-07-14, 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by spare_wheel
Lie back and think of england...




I view your comment as a "stay out of the way or we/they will kill you" threat. It's intended to intimidate and cow a minority that challenges societal norms.

It's also pure unadulterated hogwash. Even in the USA cycling for transportation is safe. My neighbors do not want to kill me for riding in the lane.
Of course it's not your neighbors... it's the kid down the road that just got his license and a vintage Mustang and has the Facebook page that says "bicycle geeks must die."
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Old 12-07-14, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Bm7b5
Drunk driving is me-first driving-selfish and ignorant. ​So is texting and driving.
But, In their drunken state, unless they are being pursued by the authorities. Do you see/hear drunk drivers saying verbally and/or with there vehicle, and with 'Premeditated intention' to 'Get The **** Off The Road'.

Maybe it is just me. But, Unless they are trying to ram an officer off the road during a chase. I don't see them doing intentionally to anyone else. Because, There is a difference between a driver with 'premeditated intention', and one in a drunken haze.
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Old 12-08-14, 08:54 AM
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Originally Posted by asmac
According to the article I posted, police in little places like Ferguson depend on fines to finance their operations as there is no local tax base.

More generally, I conclude from the emphasis police place on bulk ticketing for trivial offenses and their apparent unwillingness to enforce more difficult serious offenses that there is some connection between traffic fines and funding though not a direct one. Parking fines (enforced by the courts) are a direct city money-maker, of course.
A common misconception but the courts don't enforce anything. The executive branch enforces and the judicial branch interprets. I don't know what terms are used in Canada but the concept is the same.
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Old 12-08-14, 11:24 AM
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Its discouraging how some let their ideologies blind them to everyday issues, and forget reason.
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Old 12-08-14, 04:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Coal Buster
A common misconception but the courts don't enforce anything. The executive branch enforces and the judicial branch interprets. I don't know what terms are used in Canada but the concept is the same.
Not necessarily. In Canada a 'sheriff' is an officer of the court who enforces court orders. In any event traffic fines are ultimately enforced through the court which issues arrest warrants which the police execute. Same difference effectively.
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