Drunk bishop kills bike enthusiast in hit-and-run
12-31-14, 06:44 AM
#51
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The thing here that really ticks me off is the idiotic idea that alcoholism is a disease, that is simply BS. If it is a disease, show me the germ or the virus. Alcoholism is simply the lack of personal responsibility.
To go easy on this Bishop (the church doesnt matter) is totally out of line, especially since this is the second offense.
To go easy on this Bishop (the church doesnt matter) is totally out of line, especially since this is the second offense.
12-31-14, 07:17 AM
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Indeed, culture has a lot to do with it... such as calling preventable collisions, "accidents." Rarely is a collision actually an accident. The usual factors are poor decision making and the ability to blame others/outside events for something that was clearly preventable... had the operator actually focused on the primary task at hand.
But as long as society says "accident," well, the impetus is to seek a scapegoat.
But as long as society says "accident," well, the impetus is to seek a scapegoat.
12-31-14, 07:22 AM
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Follow-up quote:
"Lyon said he saw a green Subaru station wagon driving slowly by the scene as Palermo was being taken to the hospital. 'I could see its front windscreen was caved in and spidered.'
Lyon, who two years ago received a broken collarbone, two separated shoulders and torn rotator cuffs in a hit-and-run just yards from Saturday's accident, hopped on his bike and followed the damaged car as Cook left the scene on Baltimore's Roland Avenue.
'I was determined not to let her get away because the man who hit me was never found,' Lyon said.
Lyon caught up with Bishop Cook at a set of traffic lights and yelled at her asking if she was all right. 'She said she was and drove off,' he said.
"Cook turned into the gated Elkridge Estates, where she lives and was immediately let in by the security guard who stopped Lyon. However he explained he was trying to get the vehicle's license plate as it had been involved in a potentially fatal accident and was eventually let in.
He cycled all round the complex's roads searching for the damaged vehicle without luck. When he returned to the gate the guard told him Cook had left. Lyon went back to the scene of the crash and saw the bishop speaking to police.
'I thanked her for returning,' he said."
Kudos to cyclist comradeship!
P.S. Wonder if the hit-and-run that injured Mr. Lyon was the same driver
"Lyon said he saw a green Subaru station wagon driving slowly by the scene as Palermo was being taken to the hospital. 'I could see its front windscreen was caved in and spidered.'
Lyon, who two years ago received a broken collarbone, two separated shoulders and torn rotator cuffs in a hit-and-run just yards from Saturday's accident, hopped on his bike and followed the damaged car as Cook left the scene on Baltimore's Roland Avenue.
'I was determined not to let her get away because the man who hit me was never found,' Lyon said.
Lyon caught up with Bishop Cook at a set of traffic lights and yelled at her asking if she was all right. 'She said she was and drove off,' he said.
"Cook turned into the gated Elkridge Estates, where she lives and was immediately let in by the security guard who stopped Lyon. However he explained he was trying to get the vehicle's license plate as it had been involved in a potentially fatal accident and was eventually let in.
He cycled all round the complex's roads searching for the damaged vehicle without luck. When he returned to the gate the guard told him Cook had left. Lyon went back to the scene of the crash and saw the bishop speaking to police.
'I thanked her for returning,' he said."
Kudos to cyclist comradeship!
P.S. Wonder if the hit-and-run that injured Mr. Lyon was the same driver
The above follow-up leads me to believe the following. Of course this is all conjecture without knowing if she was truly impaired by drugs or drink. Hopefully law enforcement will find the truth and not try to lessen this women's responsibility.
1. She knew what she had done.
2. She left the scene because she was impaired and knew this.
3. She went home to remove (hide) evidence of drinking from her vehicle.
4. She went home to try to "sober up" a little or cover the signs of drinking before returning to the scene.
I would do all the above to hide my drinking from my family.
As a person who no longer drinks because it was an problem for me, I have some insight on how an alcoholic mind works. I am thankful that I never had an issue with vehicles while drinking, just a miracle that I did not. I just merely almost lost my family.
12-31-14, 07:25 AM
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12-31-14, 08:46 AM
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Perhaps you would like the meaning of the word redefined in the English language to meet your agenda. Seems its use here is appropriaten discussing this and most other traffic incidents/collisions.
Accident - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
Extract:ac·ci·dent noun \ˈak-sə-dənt, -ˌdent; ˈaks-dənt\ : a sudden event (such as a crash) that is not planned or intended and that causes damage or injury
: an event that is not planned or intended : an event that occurs by chance
Full Definition of ACCIDENT
1a : an unforeseen and unplanned event or circumstance
b : lack of intention or necessity : chance <met by accident rather than by design>
2a : an unfortunate event resulting especially from carelessness or ignorance
b : an unexpected and medically important bodily event especially when injurious <a cerebrovascular accident>
c : an unexpected happening causing loss or injury which is not due to any fault or misconduct on the part of the person injured but for which legal relief may be sought
d —used euphemistically to refer to an involuntary act or instance of urination or defecation
3: a nonessential property or quality of an entity or circumstance <the accident of nationality>
Examples of ACCIDENT
Accident - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
Extract:ac·ci·dent noun \ˈak-sə-dənt, -ˌdent; ˈaks-dənt\ : a sudden event (such as a crash) that is not planned or intended and that causes damage or injury
: an event that is not planned or intended : an event that occurs by chance
Full Definition of ACCIDENT
1a : an unforeseen and unplanned event or circumstance
b : lack of intention or necessity : chance <met by accident rather than by design>
2a : an unfortunate event resulting especially from carelessness or ignorance
b : an unexpected and medically important bodily event especially when injurious <a cerebrovascular accident>
c : an unexpected happening causing loss or injury which is not due to any fault or misconduct on the part of the person injured but for which legal relief may be sought
d —used euphemistically to refer to an involuntary act or instance of urination or defecation
3: a nonessential property or quality of an entity or circumstance <the accident of nationality>
Examples of ACCIDENT
- He was injured in an accident at work.
- The accident happened when her car slid on a patch of ice.
- Investigators are still trying to determine the cause of the accident.
- Their meeting was an accident.
- It is just an accident that they arrived when they did.
- She says that her pregnancy was an accident.
The fact is that several examples shown above are not at all accidents, but were simply unplanned events or were clearly preventable... had the involved parties been acting in a responsible manner.
Some agencies have recognized this language conundrum and have been working to fix this unfortunate use of the term "accident" when used in conjunction with avoidable automobile collisions.
https://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/11/ny...quad.html?_r=0
And in a symbolic semantic change that some advocates for crash victims have long requested, the department will begin using the term “collision” instead of “accident” to describe crashes, Mr. Kelly said. The squad itself will soon be renamed the Collision Investigation Squad.
“In the past, the term ‘accident’ has sometimes given the inaccurate impression or connotation that there is no fault or liability associated with a specific event,” Mr. Kelly wrote.
“In the past, the term ‘accident’ has sometimes given the inaccurate impression or connotation that there is no fault or liability associated with a specific event,” Mr. Kelly wrote.
Was that an accident, or a crash? | Arizona Bike Law
Changing the way we think about events, and the words we use to describe them, affects the way we behave. Motor vehicle crashes and injuries are predictable, preventable events. Continued use of the word “accident” promotes the concept that these events are outside of human influence or control. In fact, they are predictable results of specific actions.
The concept of “accident” works against bringing all the appropriate resources to bear on the enormous problem of motor vehicle collisions. Continuous use of “accident” fosters the idea that the resulting injuries are an unavoidable part of life.
The concept of “accident” works against bringing all the appropriate resources to bear on the enormous problem of motor vehicle collisions. Continuous use of “accident” fosters the idea that the resulting injuries are an unavoidable part of life.
Presidential Initiative for Increasing Seat Belt Use Nationwide -- Crash Aren't Accidents
The vast majority of all fatal and non-fatal injuries in America, including traffic injuries, are not acts of fate but are predictable and preventable.
Traffic crashes aren't "accidents." They are both predictable and preventable.
Traffic crashes aren't "accidents." They are both predictable and preventable.
12-31-14, 09:47 AM
#57
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.....make me furious.
A man is dying in the street, and the driver bolts!
Regardless of how the accident (?) occurred, fleeing the scene should be an automatic multiple year prison sentence when a fatality or serious injury results, and a lessor sentence for less serious incidents, to run consecutively with or without any penalty relating to causal factors.
Fleeing of and in itself is a crime and needs to be punished regardless of fault.
A man is dying in the street, and the driver bolts!
Regardless of how the accident (?) occurred, fleeing the scene should be an automatic multiple year prison sentence when a fatality or serious injury results, and a lessor sentence for less serious incidents, to run consecutively with or without any penalty relating to causal factors.
Fleeing of and in itself is a crime and needs to be punished regardless of fault.
Right. At the moment, perhaps we should be saying, "A convicted drunk driver has killed a cyclist in a hit-and-run incident. Authorities have not yet established whether or not the killer was drunk or engaged in any other illegal activity at the time of the killing."
Fair enough?
Fair enough?
If "Probation without judgement" in MD is akin to "Continued without a finding" in MA, then there is no record of her being a convicted drunk driver. However, if she is still on probation from the first incident, she could face reinstatement of charges and any resulting penalty regarding the first charge, she most likely had to assume responsibility for her actions, and it may be held against her if it is found she was also driving drunk this time -- although there was no conviction, if she was driving drunk when she hit Palermo, she could face second offense DUI charges.
12-31-14, 09:55 AM
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My other though about this thread, and I have been reading it for a few days, is this. We were told that all we needed to fix the problems in the church was more Female Priests and Bishops. It is just possible that the problems have less to do with gender and more to do with the reality that people are flawed.
12-31-14, 10:08 AM
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Saturday was a clear, sunny day in Baltimore and the location of this tragedy (see link to street view of 5700 block of Roland Ave.) is a wide residential street with a large grass median, well marked bike lane and paved shoulder. If he was going northbound, he could easily have been keeping up with motor vehicle traffic flow because of the traffic light at Lake. This is horrible for all of us.
https://www.google.com/maps/place/57...18f173407e3b37
https://www.google.com/maps/place/57...18f173407e3b37
12-31-14, 10:19 AM
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Great work keeping an eye on this person!
The above follow-up leads me to believe the following. Of course this is all conjecture without knowing if she was truly impaired by drugs or drink. Hopefully law enforcement will find the truth and not try to lessen this women's responsibility.
1. She knew what she had done.
2. She left the scene because she was impaired and knew this.
3. She went home to remove (hide) evidence of drinking from her vehicle.
4. She went home to try to "sober up" a little or cover the signs of drinking before returning to the scene.
I would do all the above to hide my drinking from my family.
As a person who no longer drinks because it was an problem for me, I have some insight on how an alcoholic mind works. I am thankful that I never had an issue with vehicles while drinking, just a miracle that I did not. I just merely almost lost my family.
The above follow-up leads me to believe the following. Of course this is all conjecture without knowing if she was truly impaired by drugs or drink. Hopefully law enforcement will find the truth and not try to lessen this women's responsibility.
1. She knew what she had done.
2. She left the scene because she was impaired and knew this.
3. She went home to remove (hide) evidence of drinking from her vehicle.
4. She went home to try to "sober up" a little or cover the signs of drinking before returning to the scene.
I would do all the above to hide my drinking from my family.
As a person who no longer drinks because it was an problem for me, I have some insight on how an alcoholic mind works. I am thankful that I never had an issue with vehicles while drinking, just a miracle that I did not. I just merely almost lost my family.
12-31-14, 10:39 AM
#61
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I disagree, some accidents are just that. However, there are things we call accidents that are nothing but the predictable outcome of unlawful behavior. This case looks like the latter.
My other though about this thread, and I have been reading it for a few days, is this. We were told that all we needed to fix the problems in the church was more Female Priests and Bishops. It is just possible that the problems have less to do with gender and more to do with the reality that people are flawed.
My other though about this thread, and I have been reading it for a few days, is this. We were told that all we needed to fix the problems in the church was more Female Priests and Bishops. It is just possible that the problems have less to do with gender and more to do with the reality that people are flawed.
12-31-14, 02:33 PM
#62
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Thread Starter
3. She went home to remove (hide) evidence of drinking from her vehicle.
4. She went home to try to "sober up" a little or cover the signs of drinking before returning to the scene.
I would do all the above to hide my drinking from my family.
As a person who no longer drinks because it was an problem for me, I have some insight on how an alcoholic mind works. I am thankful that I never had an issue with vehicles while drinking, just a miracle that I did not. I just merely almost lost my family.
4. She went home to try to "sober up" a little or cover the signs of drinking before returning to the scene.
I would do all the above to hide my drinking from my family.
As a person who no longer drinks because it was an problem for me, I have some insight on how an alcoholic mind works. I am thankful that I never had an issue with vehicles while drinking, just a miracle that I did not. I just merely almost lost my family.
Kudos for your overcoming your own problem!
12-31-14, 03:46 PM
#63
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Let he who is without sin cast the first stone...
Nevertheless, for a society to function, there must be rules and (unfortunately) appropriate punishment for breaking those rules.
The problem with drinking is that (mostly) everybody does it. When a death like this occurs, then everybody calls for justice, but is reluctant to increase the penalties lest they, themselves, one day face the punishment. And although this incident cost two lives (the driver's is certainly never going to be the same either), how many will go out and drive drunk TONIGHT?
There is a difference between being able to drink and being able to drive while drunk. Many don't understand the difference. I lost my only sister to a drunk driver. I have ever since believed that penalties for drunk driving fall (far) short of the crime. As @look566 rider says - "it's...just a miracle" that he didn't cause a catastrophe. And so it is for all drunk drivers, until their miraculous luck fails...
MUCH steeper penalties for drunk drivers WILL deter the practice. How many more will die before society agrees and changes?
Nevertheless, for a society to function, there must be rules and (unfortunately) appropriate punishment for breaking those rules.
The problem with drinking is that (mostly) everybody does it. When a death like this occurs, then everybody calls for justice, but is reluctant to increase the penalties lest they, themselves, one day face the punishment. And although this incident cost two lives (the driver's is certainly never going to be the same either), how many will go out and drive drunk TONIGHT?
There is a difference between being able to drink and being able to drive while drunk. Many don't understand the difference. I lost my only sister to a drunk driver. I have ever since believed that penalties for drunk driving fall (far) short of the crime. As @look566 rider says - "it's...just a miracle" that he didn't cause a catastrophe. And so it is for all drunk drivers, until their miraculous luck fails...
MUCH steeper penalties for drunk drivers WILL deter the practice. How many more will die before society agrees and changes?
12-31-14, 03:58 PM
#64
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The thing here that really ticks me off is the idiotic idea that alcoholism is a disease, that is simply BS. If it is a disease, show me the germ or the virus. Alcoholism is simply the lack of personal responsibility.
To go easy on this Bishop (the church doesnt matter) is totally out of line, especially since this is the second offense.
To go easy on this Bishop (the church doesnt matter) is totally out of line, especially since this is the second offense.
There are some posters to whom facts, absence of any credible evidence, or standard use of the English language mean nothing if/when they conflict with emotions, opinions or an agenda.
12-31-14, 04:01 PM
#65
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Again, this is A&S. Dreamland often trumps reality here. At least you recognize the difference in this instance.
12-31-14, 04:17 PM
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Isn't it amazing how dictionaries follow common uses of a word.
The fact is that several examples shown above are not at all accidents, but were simply unplanned events or were clearly preventable... had the involved parties been acting in a responsible manner.
Some agencies have recognized this language conundrum and have been working to fix this unfortunate use of the term "accident" when used in conjunction with avoidable automobile collisions.
https://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/11/ny...quad.html?_r=0
Even insurance companies use the term "collision coverage."
Was that an accident, or a crash? | Arizona Bike Law
And finally from the NHTSA...
Presidential Initiative for Increasing Seat Belt Use Nationwide -- Crash Aren't Accidents
So are you saying that the Bishop involved in the collision mentioned in the OP "accidentally" got drunk, "accidentally" choose to drive a motor vehicle and kill someone?
The fact is that several examples shown above are not at all accidents, but were simply unplanned events or were clearly preventable... had the involved parties been acting in a responsible manner.
Some agencies have recognized this language conundrum and have been working to fix this unfortunate use of the term "accident" when used in conjunction with avoidable automobile collisions.
https://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/11/ny...quad.html?_r=0
Even insurance companies use the term "collision coverage."
Was that an accident, or a crash? | Arizona Bike Law
And finally from the NHTSA...
Presidential Initiative for Increasing Seat Belt Use Nationwide -- Crash Aren't Accidents
So are you saying that the Bishop involved in the collision mentioned in the OP "accidentally" got drunk, "accidentally" choose to drive a motor vehicle and kill someone?
Similar in thought/rationale to other cycling zealots who insist that they "drive" bikes and believe that speaking in tongues and jargon is positive advocacy.
12-31-14, 05:00 PM
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Some crashes are indeed accidents... but the reality is that these are quite rare. Often the cause of a collision is something that was easily preventable. According to NHTSA, most collisions are due to distraction or excessive speed... both situations involving bad decisions by the MV operator. Even things like brake failure or tire failure can largely be attributed to poor maintenance decisions. Now something like a bridge collapse, falling rocks, or a tree falling... those are probably "accidents."
As we are all human, I'm wary of focusing on semantics to criminalize imperfection the same as intentional malice.
12-31-14, 07:59 PM
#68
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It isn't a disease. A disease has(or is still being researched to have) a cure. Therefore, If a person is a 'recovering alcoholic', they have only 'conquered' it, not 'cured' it.
Last edited by Chris516; 12-31-14 at 08:11 PM.
12-31-14, 08:01 PM
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This in the Washington Post yesterday-
Maryland Episcopal bishop in fatal crash had DUI history, and diocese knew - The Washington Post
Maryland Episcopal bishop in fatal crash had DUI history, and diocese knew - The Washington Post
12-31-14, 09:12 PM
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I didn't. That is logic and common sense.
Othewise, By the vein of your question. We might as well tear apart the definition of a disease. To have it being ambiguous, instead of exact.
This is Webster's definition:Disease - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
This is Wikipedia's definition:Disease - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
It isn't like cancer. Where a cure is continuously being researched.
But we might as well take this part of the thread to another forum for that debate.
Othewise, By the vein of your question. We might as well tear apart the definition of a disease. To have it being ambiguous, instead of exact.
This is Webster's definition:Disease - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
This is Wikipedia's definition:Disease - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
It isn't like cancer. Where a cure is continuously being researched.
But we might as well take this part of the thread to another forum for that debate.
Last edited by Chris516; 12-31-14 at 09:16 PM.
12-31-14, 09:34 PM
#72
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Actually, there's quite a bit of research on it. But people are comfortable with their belief systems. It makes the world more manageable.
12-31-14, 09:42 PM
#73
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I was unable to read all the posts due to the insipid sniping.
More importantly if you'd like to DO something, the frame builders have a thread going: https://www.bikeforums.net/framebuild...m-palermo.html
or go directly to the Palermo family help link: Children of Tom Palermo | Tuition - YouCaring
now i've said - i guess i better follow through...
What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
More importantly if you'd like to DO something, the frame builders have a thread going: https://www.bikeforums.net/framebuild...m-palermo.html
or go directly to the Palermo family help link: Children of Tom Palermo | Tuition - YouCaring
now i've said - i guess i better follow through...
What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
01-01-15, 01:15 AM
#74
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Thread Starter
the video clip attached to the article 'Hit and run pastor' delivers eerily prescient sermon", but I just watched. She said in the sermon (toward the end of the video):
"And if we routinely drive 55 in a 30 miles/hr zone, we won't be able to stop on a dime if driving conditions get dangerous, or if an animal or--God forbidden--a human being should step out in front of us."
"And if we routinely drive 55 in a 30 miles/hr zone, we won't be able to stop on a dime if driving conditions get dangerous, or if an animal or--God forbidden--a human being should step out in front of us."
01-01-15, 01:22 AM
#75
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I think though that we should show some restraint in blaming alcohol for this crash. Yes the driver got a DUI several years ago and it's highly unlikely that was her first experience with drunk driving, but there's been no indication that this crash involved alcohol.
Last edited by Saving Hawaii; 01-01-15 at 01:26 AM.