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Remind Me Why I Should Care What Motorists Think...

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Remind Me Why I Should Care What Motorists Think...

Old 01-30-15, 07:25 PM
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Originally Posted by daihard
This?

RCW 46.61.100: Keep right except when passing, etc.

When I drive on the freeway, I always stay out of the left lane unless I overtake others. Like someone said above, it is just a universal convention if not a law - the inside lane is for the faster traffic.
Yes, thank you.
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Old 01-30-15, 08:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Keith99
Actually citing vehicle code I have had no luck, either direction. But this link is interesting. Once one has the idea that the link you provided in mind it seems to confirm it.

Louisiana Speed Limit

Seems to, yuo can then go the the link for California which uses the very same verbiage and I know California law allows higher speeds than posted unless the sign says 'maximum Speed' not 'Speed Limit'.
Sounds like we're in agreement then that in Louisiana there is no provision to exceed the posted speed limit signs - and since the OP made his observations in that state it is the only relevant jurisdiction.

However, I find no mention of a distinction between 'Speed Limit' and Maximum Speed Limit' in the California Vehicle Code either in terms of what needs to appear on signs (there are some distinctions in how the speed limits need to be determined).
"CVC 22348. (a) Notwithstanding subdivision (b) of Section 22351, a person shall not drive a vehicle upon a highway with a speed limit established pursuant to Section 22349 or 22356 at a speed greater than that speed limit." The mention of section 22356 does give the motorist a potential pass on a speeding violation if he can show that the posted speed limit wasn't properly established based on an engineering and traffic study AND that he wasn't violating the basic speed law. But if the state did its job properly in setting the posted limit, then the motorist in Calif. is also required to obey the posted speed limit signs even if conditions are such that going faster would not violate the basic speed law (i.e. is reasonable and prudent). Now in practice it is probably true in both La and Ca that one has little reason to fear a speeding ticket if just keeping up with the normal flow of traffic. But the discussion here has been about following the law - not what one can get away with.

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Old 01-31-15, 07:52 AM
  #103  
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Originally Posted by AlmostTrick
If anyone has reference to a "passing lane" in their vehicle code, please post it. I've searched the IL code and could not find anything on it. Always sounds made up to me, usually by drivers who want to exceed the speed limit. (which as far as I can tell, is the same in every lane, and always a hard limit)

"If a car isn't passing another vehicle, then it doesn't belong in the left lane!"

How would this work in heavy traffic? No one could drive in the left lane? Only a few special speeders? If all lanes are full, who is required to move right? Anytime someone wants to go faster any other drivers must move right? Is there ever a limit to this? Maybe I want to go over 100. You better move right, I'm in the passing lane.
In heavy traffic as in rush hour traffic on urban expressways, passing opportunities are usually limited and usually not all that worthwhile because all the lanes are going pretty much the same speed, usually slower than when traffic is not so heavy. I don't believe there is any place in the U.S. where left lane is only for passing is enforced under such conditions.
If the heavy traffic is moving fast, or the speed difference between the lanes is significant, a motorist would have to be a real jerk, as well as reckless and indifferent to creating a safety hazard for himself and others, to deliberately hog the left lane in order to "enforce" a speed limitation on other motorists.
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Old 01-31-15, 09:30 AM
  #104  
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Originally Posted by AlmostTrick
If anyone has reference to a "passing lane" in their vehicle code, please post it. I've searched the IL code and could not find anything on it. Always sounds made up to me, usually by drivers who want to exceed the speed limit. (which as far as I can tell, is the same in every lane, and always a hard limit)

"If a car isn't passing another vehicle, then it doesn't belong in the left lane!"

How would this work in heavy traffic? No one could drive in the left lane? Only a few special speeders? If all lanes are full, who is required to move right? Anytime someone wants to go faster any other drivers must move right? Is there ever a limit to this? Maybe I want to go over 100. You better move right, I'm in the passing lane.
Here (far west Texas, El Paso County) there are signs on all highways that say "Left Lane for Passing Only", and my wife was pulled over last year for driving in the left lane and impeding traffic on our "Loop" freeway. However, in the urban sprawl that is the City, where traffic is heavy, there isn't a regulation like that.

But whatever regulations or laws there are, people are going to break them. I always drive speed limits (maybe cuz I'm old) and all the other cars pass me. They run stop signs, speed through school zones, make aggressive lane changes - it's just the way things are. So when I'm riding on city streets like the OP I follow laws as much as is prudent, but my primary objective is safety. Sometimes the need to stay safe means I'll go through a red light, or hop up on the sidewalk, or cut across a parking lot. Many things I do on a bike inconvenience drivers.

But drivers are already mad. They are mad at each other, they are mad at transit buses, they are mad at motorcyclists and pedestrians. Therefore when they are mad at me when I'm on the Black Knight bike I don't feel special or take it personally. Fact is, if I run the red, they get mad; if I wait, they get mad (because I'm blocking them); if I smile at them they get madder; if I flip them off . . . . . So I don't ride with the intent to appease the driving multitude, I ride with safety in mind. I have to not care what they think.
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Old 01-31-15, 09:44 AM
  #105  
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good post. I think most drivers are at least a little agitated, and there isn't much I can do to help them out with that.

as far as passing lanes go, Pennsylvania has a "keep right except to pass" law, which I suspect is never enforced. On a two lane road, I'm not sure what the law really says. Here is a road rage incident that occurred recently and got some attention: https://www.wncn.com/story/27967871/n...aught-on-video

She was charged with reckless driving to endanger, assault and battery, injury to personal property, driving left of center and two counts of communicating threats.
so, first, drivers aren't thinking, and second if you pass on a double yellow you get charged with, "driving left of center" -- I wonder if they made that up?

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Old 01-31-15, 10:14 AM
  #106  
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
If the heavy traffic is moving fast, or the speed difference between the lanes is significant, a motorist would have to be a real jerk, as well as reckless and indifferent to creating a safety hazard for himself and others, to deliberately hog the left lane in order to "enforce" a speed limitation on other motorists.
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Old 01-31-15, 10:41 AM
  #107  
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Originally Posted by tractorlegs
I have to not care what they think.
Yep. This is the bottom line. I do my best to be polite to other road users no matter what vehicle I drive or ride. But I can't afford to worry about what they think of me when I make a maneuver that has ZERO affect on them other than just seeing me do the maneuver.

Nice post TL. I am certain you know that if you drive the speed limit exactly (i do the same as a rule) you will likely never see the other folks who toe the line regarding speed limits. This fact is why I drove 5 over the limit during my "experiment" in hopes that I would overtake some of the law abiding motorists.
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Old 02-09-15, 01:36 PM
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We should care what motorist think of us because the vast majority of voters are motorist . Many regard bikes as kid stuff and toys for driveways and sidewalks and quite residential streets with watchful Moms and Dads .
The majority of the people/voters will be influencing and making the traffic laws that govern US. NOT a small minority of bikers.
Just like we don't have a constitutional right to drive a motor vehicle on a public street ,we also don't have that right to ride a bike on the street. We must meet any legal standard set before us.
Our "right " to ride can be modified , we can be relegated to/from certain streets, certain hours. If enough people get mad at us and influence lawmakers We can be legislated off the streets ,for all practical purposes . Equipment regulations ect. can make riding bikes expensive and unattractive.
Right now here in Fl. we have pretty bike friendly laws ,which give us lots of freedoms. But just as these laws were voted in , they can be voted out.
If they break the law in a car they may cause an accident and kill somebody and they will be held accountable.
If I break the law on a bike , I may have an accident and kill ME! That's a lot different.
If I'm on a bike path/ sidewalk and just as I get to the intersection the light goes green for vehicles going the same way I am but the pedestrian crossing light stays red. AND there are no turning vehicles I will use the crossing (as will most walking pedestrians). If there is a stop sign and I have unlimited 360 view of the intersection I will slow down and disobey the sign. I have a better view than most cars and they do the same thing. And If I get caught I will pay the ticket. Everywhere else I pretty well obey the law.
If we make enough people mad at us Things can get a lot tougher.
Can't we all just get along?
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Old 02-09-15, 04:58 PM
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Originally Posted by SlowNeasy
We should care what motorist think of us because the vast majority of voters are motorists.
I don't think the vast majority of motorists are the problem. Idaho has the Idaho Stop Law. California allows even motorcycles to split lanes under certain circumstances. Did the "majority of motorists" get to vote on those things? Did the majority of voters get to vote on bicycles being allowed to "take the lane" or "obstruct auto traffic"? Did motorists get to vote to "share the lane"? I vote regularly, and I never voted on any of those issues.

If we make enough people mad at us Things can get a lot tougher.
Some people wake up mad every morning no matter what. And I believe that most motorists don't give two hoots what cyclists do so long as we stay out of their way.

Can't we all just get along?
I think we do a pretty good job of coexisting. I see motorists breaking laws all day long. So long as they do it respectfully and sober and not looking at a phone I really don't care. A few cars going through a new red light in my town is cultural and traditional. Cyclists running reds and stop signs is also traditional. A few motorists get bent out of shape but most don't care IMO.
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Old 02-09-15, 06:31 PM
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Originally Posted by genec
Fully agree, fully agree.

Yet it seems to get motorists all in a huff when they have to wait oh, 5-10 seconds to clear a cyclist; yet they will sit for a half hour or more in bumper to bumper traffic with other motorists.
Exactly my point about the definition of 'slowly'.
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Old 02-10-15, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by JoeyBike
I don't think the vast majority of motorists are the problem. Idaho has the Idaho Stop Law. California allows even motorcycles to split lanes under certain circumstances. Did the "majority of motorists" get to vote on those things? Did the majority of voters get to vote on bicycles being allowed to "take the lane" or "obstruct auto traffic"? Did motorists get to vote to "share the lane"? I vote regularly, and I never voted on any of those issues>



Some people wake up mad every morning no matter what. And I believe that most motorists don't give two hoots what cyclists do so long as we stay out of their way.






I think we do a pretty good job of coexisting. I see motorists breaking laws all day long. So long as they do it respectfully and sober and not looking at a phone I really don't care. A few cars going through a new red light in my town is cultural and traditional. Cyclists running reds and stop signs is also traditional. A few motorists get bent out of shape but most don't care IMO.
No I didn't vote on those issues either. But I hope both of our representatives voted the way they thought the majority of those they represent wanted them to (Sometimes I have doubts but that's belongs on another thread) Or the Rep won't survive . So laws can be changed to reflect the wishes of the voters. And voter opinion does matter.
Even Constitutions can be changed and this is not a constitutional issue.

Yep some people do wake up mad every morning for a great number of reasons . Reasons that sometimes even they aren't aware of. Or won't admit . But certain gestures , words, violations from you and I can convince them to focus all that anger and blame on Bicyclist. And some people wake up in a good mood and get their day ruined by Bikers and other motorist.
But I'm more worried about the angry motorist who was angered back down the road by a bicyclist and is now approaching me.
"Can't we all just get along" Sorry , humor from the last century. Hence the .
That being said I think there is still room for improvement. Especially from knowledgeable ,experienced bicyclist .
On the street as in most of life we can only control what we do. I can't control what the other guy does , biker or motorist.

All motorist should "give two hoots" about the conduct and well being of cyclist as they are very vulnerable. Just like when you or I drive our cars we should give a lot of hoots about the conduct and actions of pedestrians, and children we see on/near the street as they may not do what we expect them to do. And though I might be in the right I will do everything in my power not to kill a child or other pedestrian/biker.

Last edited by SlowNeasy; 02-10-15 at 10:21 AM. Reason: Mistake
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Old 02-10-15, 09:17 PM
  #112  
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Originally Posted by JoeyBike
I don't think the vast majority of motorists are the problem........... I think we do a pretty good job of coexisting.
That seems like a good reason to care about what motorists think.
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Old 02-15-15, 11:26 PM
  #113  
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Originally Posted by JoeyBike
Why should I give a d@mn what motorists think of me breaking the law on my bicycle?
This. I've been thinking this same issue for a year now and have been meaning to reply before the thread fell off Page One. Looks like that won't have happen soon. And this is good.

I've always found the idea mildly annoying that we should be concerned about motorist's perceptions. So car drivers complain and might not like cyclists, because cyclists run stop signs, red lights, and hog the road? Really? When I get into my car and go to work tomorrow, on the eight lane state highway heading into downtown San Antonio, the speed limit will be 60-65mph. Same speed limit as last Friday. The flow of traffic will be 70mph and 80mph in the fast lane. Then someone says stay out of the fast lane if I'm only going 60-65mph because the drivers manual and state law says the fast lane is for passing? I want a copy of that driver's manual.

Seriously, we all wink and nod at the speed of highway traffic flow and we coast through stop signs in the neighborhood when there are no other cars waiting. I see cars coasting through stop signs all the time when driving or riding. It's not even worth counting the violations anymore. But I do it and 99% of the other posters on these message boards do too. The other 1% probably fill their cars with ping pong balls when transporting their kids to school and wear a high viz yellow vest while pushing a shopping cart at the grocery store. Good for them.

My point is, until the morning commute miraculously slows to 55mph and the drivers in my neighborhood observe stop signs by putting a foot on the pavement, I'm going to continue wearing black, yielding at a stop sign, stopping at a stop light (if there is traffic), and I don't care what the guy thinks driving a 2-ton/400hp truck/SUV, with his big toe, while texting and drinking a Big Gulp. Not even a little itty-bitty tiny bit. At the end of the day, you could stop for all lights, stop signs, and ride in the gutter, and Billy Bob still thinks you are a p****, riding a children's toy, and should be on the sidewalk.

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Old 02-15-15, 11:34 PM
  #114  
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Originally Posted by kickstart
That seems like a good reason to care about what motorists think.
Nope. I think the vast majority of motorists don't care if cyclists coast through stop signs or only stop briefly at a stop light. The vast majority of motorists understand the mechanics of cycling are different from the mechanics of a gas-powered automobile. Someone that buzzes you on purpose, probably does the same thing to cars on the freeway and pedestrians in the crosswalk.
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Old 02-16-15, 12:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Minnesota Expat
Nope. I think the vast majority of motorists don't care if cyclists coast through stop signs or only stop briefly at a stop light. The vast majority of motorists understand the mechanics of cycling are different from the mechanics of a gas-powered automobile. Someone that buzzes you on purpose, probably does the same thing to cars on the freeway and pedestrians in the crosswalk.
Everybody should care about everyone else, otherwise they're is no better than those they single out to justify their behavior.

I don't always follow the letter of the law, but I'm always mindful of the effects and perceptions of my actions. I expect that from others, so I'm obligated to do the same, and I certainly won't let the actions of a few miscreants define how I treat everyone else.
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Old 02-16-15, 09:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Minnesota Expat
When I get into my car and go to work tomorrow, on the eight lane state highway heading into downtown San Antonio, the speed limit will be 60-65mph. Same speed limit as last Friday. The flow of traffic will be 70mph and 80mph in the fast lane. Then someone says stay out of the fast lane if I'm only going 60-65mph because the drivers manual and state law says the fast lane is for passing? I want a copy of that driver's manual.
The speed limit is an absolute limit, and is the same in all lanes.

Most motorists are consistently in violation of the speed limit. Most roll stop signs, and right on red. Cyclists also do this, and many of them run red lights too. Apparently, everyone gets to decide for themselves which laws they need not bother to obey, while still calling out others for their infractions. Especially any infractions (real or perceived) that dare to slow them down.

See how nice that works out?
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Old 02-16-15, 10:04 PM
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Originally Posted by AlmostTrick
The speed limit is an absolute limit, and is the same in all lanes.

Most motorists are consistently in violation of the speed limit. Most roll stop signs, and right on red. Cyclists also do this, and many of them run red lights too. Apparently, everyone gets to decide for themselves which laws they need not bother to obey, while still calling out others for their infractions. Especially any infractions (real or perceived) that dare to slow them down.

See how nice that works out?
As someone who is on the road 8 to 10 hours a day I must strongly disagree. Most road users do the right thing unnoticed as we focus on those who stand out because of their bad behavior, and unfortunately they too easily become a convenient excuse to justify our own shortcomings.
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Old 02-16-15, 10:27 PM
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Originally Posted by AlmostTrick
The speed limit is an absolute limit, and is the same in all lanes.

Most motorists are consistently in violation of the speed limit. Most roll stop signs, and right on red. Cyclists also do this, and many of them run red lights too. Apparently, everyone gets to decide for themselves which laws they need not bother to obey, while still calling out others for their infractions. Especially any infractions (real or perceived) that dare to slow them down.

See how nice that works out?
Right on red IS legal in most states unless explicitly stated otherwise (i.e. a sign stating "no right on red"). Here in Missouri, and many (most/all?) other states, a red light is legally treated like a stop sign when making a right turn. (Stop, check for traffic, proceed if clear.)
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Old 02-17-15, 05:15 AM
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[QUOTE=AlmostTrick;17560255]The speed limit is an absolute limit, and is the same in all lanes.

Most motorists are consistently in violation of the speed limit. Most roll stop signs, and right on red. Cyclists also do this, and many of them run red lights too. Apparently, everyone gets to decide for themselves which laws they need not bother to obey, while still calling out others for their infractions. Especially any infractions (real or perceived) that dare to slow them down.QUOTE]
In the UK it goes roughly like this:
1. I've been fined £60 and 3 points on my licence for doing 40 in a 30 zone, which is unfair as I'm a good driver and I know when it's safe to break the speed limit
2. I've been fined £120 and have 6 points on my licence for doing 50 in a 30 zone, which is very unfair as I'm a really good driver and I know when it's safe to break the speed limit and the road was perfectly clear
3. I've been fined £180 and have 6 points on my licence for doing 60 in a 30 zone, which is very unfair as I'm a superb driver and I know when it's safe to break the speed limit and the road was perfectly clear
4. I've been fined £300 and have 9 points on my licence for doing 70 in a 30 zone, which is %$!!** unfair as I'm a brilliant driver and I know when it's safe to break the speed limit and the road was perfectly clear
5. I've been fined £500 and have lost my licence for doing 75 in a 30 zone, which is a *!"%$ng joke as I'm a could've been an F1 driver if I'd had the chance. In fact I'm such *!"%$ng good driver that taking me off the road a reduced the average standard of driving to a dangerous level, etc., etc., etc.
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Old 02-17-15, 08:05 AM
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While riding to work one day, I was on a caffeine rush and was doing around 25mph in the bike lane. I had all the green lights lit up and traffic was light. A cyclist blew the red light and had he not skidded to a stop, it would have been a horrific crash for both of us.....just saying.

I used to run the red lights, 1 warning from an officer and 1 close encounter and made me change my mind...when you run a red light, you just never know.

Stop signs on the other hand, I do not do a foot down, unless I have to.
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Old 02-17-15, 09:40 AM
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Originally Posted by kickstart
As someone who is on the road 8 to 10 hours a day I must strongly disagree. Most road users do the right thing unnoticed...
That's fantasy and you know it. Most road users - motorists, cyclists, and pedestrians - DO NOT do the right thing. Not even close. They get away with not doing the right thing because the folks with the most skin in the game have to have to get out of the way of the scofflaws. Failure to yield, failure to stop, failure to operate at a speed reasonable and proper, failure to follow at a reasonable and proper distance, just look around.

Originally Posted by kickstart
...as we focus on those who stand out because of their bad behavior,
The folks who stand out stand out not because of their bad behavior, but because of their ATROCIOUS behavior. The new standard of ATROCIOUS is DUI *AND* texting *AND* fleeing the scene. Bad behavior short of that, such a shame you had an accident. Too bad about that pedestrian in a crosswalk YOU WERE SUPPOSED TO YIELD TO! There oughta be a law that says a professional driver isn't responsible for accidents. Vision Zero-ish.

Originally Posted by kickstart
...and unfortunately they too easily become a convenient excuse to justify our own shortcomings.
You mean like blaming the victim? "They [bus operators] navigate incredibly difficult streets loaded with pedestrians, and they do this without any enforcement on the pedestrian end of things," [TWU Local 100 President] Mr. Samuelsen said, adding, "To arrest an operator for an unintentional accident is really just absolutely outrageous, illogical and anti-worker." (There were nine pedestrian fatalities by MTA operators last year. Eight of them were failure to yield to a pedestrian on a turn. These were *NOT* the fault of pedestrians.)

-mr. bill

Last edited by mr_bill; 02-17-15 at 09:57 AM.
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Old 02-17-15, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by g0tr00t
While riding to work one day, I was on a caffeine rush and was doing around 25mph in the bike lane. I had all the green lights lit up and traffic was light.
Riding 25 mph in a bike lane and then criticizing someone else for reckless behavior is amusing. At that speed, in light traffic, you are far more visible riding in the bigger lane...just saying.

I used to run the red lights, 1 warning from an officer and 1 close encounter and made me change my mind...when you run a red light, you just never know.
I do know:

1. Slow down or stop.
2. Look both ways.
3. Run light if there is no oncoming traffic (motorvehicle, ped, or bike).
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Old 02-17-15, 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Minnesota Expat
Nope. I think the vast majority of motorists don't care if cyclists coast through stop signs or only stop briefly at a stop light. The vast majority of motorists understand the mechanics of cycling are different from the mechanics of a gas-powered automobile.
True. I split lanes constantly and will pass many, many thousands of jammed vehicles before I run into someone who starts honking and screaming at me for passing their motionless vehicle.

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Old 02-17-15, 10:15 AM
  #124  
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Originally Posted by spare_wheel
Riding 25 mph in a bike lane and then criticizing someone else for reckless behavior is amusing. At that speed, in light traffic, you are far more visible riding in the bigger lane...just saying.
Bike lane is part of the road, not a nice separated bike lane. Its in the "get-doored" lane so you don't get run over. One day.............I dream of a secluded bike lane with right turner cagers having to slow down instead of pulling 50g's trying to make the turn without brakes.
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Old 02-17-15, 05:25 PM
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Originally Posted by g0tr00t
Bike lane is part of the road, not a nice separated bike lane. Its in the "get-doored" lane so you don't get run over. One day.............I dream of a secluded bike lane with right turner cagers having to slow down instead of pulling 50g's trying to make the turn without brakes.
I'm simply trying to suggest that its generally not safe to take an intersection at 25 on the far right (or left). (If the speed differential is too high I slow down.)

https://bicyclesafe.com/#rightcross
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