jputnam

Questions aimed at people in Washington State:

• Where do you hit red lights that won't change for bicycles?
  
• How frequently do you run into lights that won't change for bikes?
  
• When you do hit a red light that won't change for bikes, do you report it?
  
• Does your city/county mark signal detectors for bicycles?

Background: State law requires that traffic signals detect bicycles. The law also says that if the best place to trigger the signal is anywhere other than centered in the lane, just behind the STOP line, the signal detector should be marked so riders know where to stop. Finally, the law says cities have to publicize how to report defective signals and prioritize them for repair.

There's a dead-red law on the books for motorcycles, but not for bicycles. There's a bill pending in the State Senate to amend the dead-red law to include bicycles and mopeds. Cities say they hardly get any complaints of defective signals, so there must not be a problem...

I'd like to be able to present more than my own experience and impressions when discussing this with legislators.

jputnam

Bicycle Detector Pavement Marking for traffic signals, MUTCD Fig. 9C-7 by joshua_putnam, on Flickr


Left Turn Trap by joshua_putnam, on Flickr

Jseis 

101 Astoria-Megler bridge, Wa side. Two of us side by side (headed east to SR 401) with Al frames will trip but one won't.

daihard 

The lights at N 175th St and Midvale Ave N in Shoreline. The Interurban Trail goes through the intersection (North-South) and they have buttons for the trail users / pedestrians. However, if you are in the main (traffic) lane on Midvale, the light will never change. I don't see any bike detector, either.

kickstart

The left turn lane on SR 169, Maple Valley Hwy, to 196th ave se. won't detect bicycles or motorcycles. Reported it many years ago, but not fixed yet.

daihard 

Wallingford Ave N crossing N 80th St. Going home (in Pinerhurst) from Green Lake (northbound), I always encounter the light doesn't turn green when I'm in front.

Notso_fastLane

Highway 9 at Broadway doesn't work for motorcycles (and obviously doesn't work for bicycles, either).

Jason Roberts

I don't see any bike detector, either.

jputnam

Just a quick update, the bill to allow cyclists to proceed through a defective red light when safe to do so has passed in the state Senate, it's now up to the House.

coolkat

I live in Shoreline, and none of the lights will pick up bikes. There's usually enough car traffic that it doesn't matter, but if it's late at night or something, I have to run the reds. I've talked to city officials casually about it before, maybe it's time to step it up a notch.

Lars Halstrom

I think it would be better if the proposed law had an age limit of 15 and older or accompanied by one.

Chris516

I don't live in Washington State. But, I think this may have happened to me, yesterday. I was stopped in front of another vehicle, at a traffic light, waiting for the green arrow to show. It didn't show up.

But that is the first time I have had trouble at that traffic light.

Redhatter

I'm not in your area, but I've found it's really imperitive that one positions themselves exactly over the road sensor. Usually you can see the cuts in the road surface where they embedded the inductive loops used to detect the car chassis, and if you park right on one of those lines, it will trigger the lights.

This assumes you have a metallic-frame bike, if you're riding a carbon frame I think you're pretty much stuffed.

I have seen traffic lights that cater for this by way of a road-side button that cyclists can press but they're not common here in Brisbane. For the carbon-frame riders, that might be your only option: encourage the local government to install such buttons for triggering lights. Another work-around for this is to press the button for pedestrian crossings.

Chris516

I don't think they exist around here. The closest possibility, is the lines fastened to the road that count the traffic. But nothing letting the traffic light know a cyclist is there.

daihard 

Most intersections that I ride through in Seattle have the signal sensors that work for my carbon-frame bike. They are clearly marked so we know where to stop.

daihard 

I mentioned this in a previous post (#4), but N 175th and Midvale N is frustrating to me. Granted they have trigger buttons, but they are only handy if you are on the sidewalk (i.e. Interurban Trail). I usually ride on Midvale between 175th and 185th as the trail goes through the park and I can't ride fast there.

LesterOfPuppets

Frame Material is usually less important than rim material.

Plenty of too-weak sensors around Vancouver, but I've not mapped nor memorized their locations.

Best one around is down in Portland. There's a blue light next to signal that illuminates when you've triggered the sensor.

Redhatter

Nice! I've had moments sitting at lights thinking "I wish there were some indication that told me it knew I was there". Now if only I could convince the Brisbane City Council/Queensland Department of Transport and Main Roads to have such foresight.

Anyway, this thread is about Washington not Brisbane so I won't de-rail it with.

CliffordK

I like that idea.

Sometimes I seem to trigger the lights around Eugene, OR. Sometimes I don't. For a busy intersection with a long signal cycle, it is a pain to wait several minutes for a 100% signal cycle... and never get the signal to cycle to one's own lane. Sometimes I've tried laying my bike directly on the sensor, but lack feedback on whether it is actually working.

I was at the end of a MUT on 42nd street in Springfield last Thursday. I usually find a way to cut across traffic to the proper side of the road, but traffic was heavy so I decided to stop at a traffic signal. No crosswalks, no crosswalk buttons. I was completely at the mercy of waiting for an 18 wheeler to come up behind me to trip the light. The truck driver yelled at me for waiting in the middle of the road... but then seemed to understand the situation when I explained that I was waiting for a light that I couldn't trip.

jputnam

So my 13 year old should be stuck in a left-turn-only lane and have to run across conflicting lanes of traffic to get to a button?

How is running through traffic safer than bicycling through the intersection once it's clear?

kickstart

Contrary to popular belief, carbon fiber is conductive. As its a composite with non conductive material, positioning over the inductive loop and its sensitivity are more important, but its detectable.

daihard 

Ah, that's good to know. Got me to do some research on carbon fibre. Thanks!

CliffordK

One can do a "square turn". Straight through the intersection. Stop. Flip the bike the other way. Push the next button, and wait for the light again. What a pain.

Part of the problem is that there are some 10 yr olds that are very competent. Others aren't. A rigid cutoff isn't always appropriate.

Before I was 12, I was already riding about 20 miles on my own into the "big city", well, at least relatively big.

Lars Halstrom

Why run? What's a conflicting lane of traffic? What if he was 8? Why not wait for a motor vehicle to show up in his lane? Why not take a safer route until it's fixed? Is the law going to describe every scenario that a cyclist of any age might encounter? I can show you a 5 way intersection here in West Seattle that has lane sensors that work. The majority of cyclists, who are also adults that cross thru it, use the 2 crosswalks and buttons method to get thru it rather than trust their ability to figure out how to do it otherwise. There is no running involved, just riding their bikes. All traffic is stopped for their crosswalk. This is a major pinch point for getting from West Seattle to downtown Seattle. Otherwise you would have to ride a few miles up the Duwamish river corridor to find the next bridge crossing. Basically cyclists are supposed to follow the same laws of motor vehicles on the roads, however, we have no requirements for formal training, no testing, no learner's permits and no age limits. I think my proposal makes sense and protects our children from a bad situation to be in all by themselves. I chose 15 because they are probably already getting educated in drivers education on risks and responsibilities of using the roads.

jputnam

Because walking slowly, against the light, through busy lanes of traffic increases the risk of getting hit.

If you're ever forced to cross multiple lanes of 40 mph traffic, you'd better do it quickly when an opening appears.


Traffic with the right-of-way moving perpendicular to the direction you must travel.

Then he shouldn't be out cycling on his own on busy streets.

And how does he get out of the way so that the motor vehicle can get over the sensor? If the car waits behind him, it's more than a full car length behind the sensor loop. Then they both get to wait forever for a green that won't come.

Can you share your map of defective signals, state-wide, so that everyone knows where the defective signals are in advance and can avoid them?

I didn't think so.

Pretty much -- any cyclist, of any age, stuck at any signal that won't change for a bicycle.

Why complexify a fairly simple issue with arbitrary age limits and street configurations?

Yes, extraordinarily poor compliance by cities has trained many cyclists that they can't ever expect a signal to function properly.

This law is not aimed at that situation.

It's aimed at the cyclist who innocently expects a city to obey the law, and ends up stuck at a signal that won't change.

Such cyclists don't usually have magic wands or transporter beams to whisk them over to the walk button. They're sitting in the middle of traffic, stuck at a defective light that won't change.

What's your solution for them once they're in that situation?

Hint... it can't be "they should have...." They didn't. They followed the law, the city didn't follow the law, the cyclist is now stuck. How do they get un-stuck?