How can we get more people riding their bikes?
03-02-15, 01:36 PM
#101
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Kent Wa.
Posts: 5,332
Bikes: 2005 Gazelle Golfo, 1935 Raleigh Sport, 1970 Robin Hood sport, 1974 Schwinn Continental, 1984 Ross MTB/porteur, 2013 Flying Piegon path racer, 2014 Gazelle Toer Populair T8
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 396 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 8 Times
in
7 Posts
I agree but I think we can do two things that help the "concerned" become more interested in utilitarian cycling:
1. Build infrastructure that increases their "comfort" level (real safety and perceived safety are two different things).
2. Challenge the prejudice that cycling is "unsafe" and abnormal.
1. Build infrastructure that increases their "comfort" level (real safety and perceived safety are two different things).
2. Challenge the prejudice that cycling is "unsafe" and abnormal.
"Build it and they will come".
03-02-15, 01:59 PM
#102
genec
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Posts: 27,079
Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
Mentioned: 86 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13658 Post(s)
Liked 4,532 Times
in
3,158 Posts
I seriously doubt an inpatient motorist makes any distinction between types of cyclists any more than they do between other types of vehicles that happen to be slowing their progress.
Being cognizant of the character of different sub groups within a category typically comes with first hand experience. Ever notice when you purchase a new bike or vehicle, suddenly you start noticing them more often than before?
Being cognizant of the character of different sub groups within a category typically comes with first hand experience. Ever notice when you purchase a new bike or vehicle, suddenly you start noticing them more often than before?
03-03-15, 12:45 AM
#103
covered in cat fur
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Willkes-Barre, PA
Posts: 614
Bikes: Papillionaire Sommer, '85 Schwinn World Tourist, 2014 Windsor Kensington 8, SixThreeZero SS Cruiser
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I'm not sure how you made the leap from "exaggerating risks" to my being against encouraging "comfort" and "perception of safety". I strongly support infrastructure that increases comfort and/or the perception of safety! On the other hand, I strongly disagree with the fear-mongering that is a all too common when it comes to cycling advocacy in the USA. Gender disparity is very unfortunate but I don't think exaggerating the risks of cycling is going to help diminish this disparity.
There is very little evidence for this statement. In fact, a recent study of cyclist attitudes towards infrastructure found that the majority of cyclists (including many of the "interested but concerned") were comfortable on "mere paint on the road" (see below). I would also add that I find the anti-bike lane bias among some cycling advocates to be very unhelpful. Historically, Denmark had very high mode share with infrastructure that was largely bike lanes. Likewise, enhanced and DZF bike lanes have been a huge contributor to the surge in cycling in German cities. And in my city, bike lanes undoubtedly contributed to increased adoption of cycling. Bike lanes are not the enemy!
https://web.pdx.edu/~jdill/Types_of_C...rkingPaper.pdf
(See Figure 6 -- bike lane on 25 mph road)
There is very little evidence for this statement. In fact, a recent study of cyclist attitudes towards infrastructure found that the majority of cyclists (including many of the "interested but concerned") were comfortable on "mere paint on the road" (see below). I would also add that I find the anti-bike lane bias among some cycling advocates to be very unhelpful. Historically, Denmark had very high mode share with infrastructure that was largely bike lanes. Likewise, enhanced and DZF bike lanes have been a huge contributor to the surge in cycling in German cities. And in my city, bike lanes undoubtedly contributed to increased adoption of cycling. Bike lanes are not the enemy!
https://web.pdx.edu/~jdill/Types_of_C...rkingPaper.pdf
(See Figure 6 -- bike lane on 25 mph road)
On a 25 MPH road (where that is enforced, road has natural 'slow down' stuff built into it.. paint would be perfect.
On a road like I saw in Cleveland while visiting family.. 4 wide lanes posted as 35 but nearly everyone was doing 40-45.. well, that painted on bike strip on the right hand side was scary as all get up. That one would have been best served by a slightly narrowed car lanes and a separate bike lane with some sort of at least visual divider set up. I ride in traffic from time to time.. and you couldn't pay me to ride in that lane, as it was set up.
03-03-15, 02:24 AM
#104
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Posts: 27,547
Mentioned: 217 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18378 Post(s)
Liked 4,512 Times
in
3,354 Posts
I suppose I can ride on roads with cars driving 20 MPH or 60 MPH.
Beaverton Hillsdale Highway is an example of a 4 lane road in Portland with a nice bike path, and it would just be wicked without the bike path. I don't remember the double white line. Perhaps that is new. Here are some Google Photos.
I've hit that road many times.
Unfortunately, it is also one of those roads where the bike path just ends near Scholls Ferry Road.
What I will say is that it is much more pleasant to ride in the section with the bike path than the section without.
And, to expect the bike paths to be viable for all users, one can't just be cruising along and suddenly have the lane end.
What would car drivers think if they were driving along, and their nice 4 lane highway suddenly became a one-way road the other way, with no viable alternative routes.
Beaverton Hillsdale Highway is an example of a 4 lane road in Portland with a nice bike path, and it would just be wicked without the bike path. I don't remember the double white line. Perhaps that is new. Here are some Google Photos.
I've hit that road many times.
Unfortunately, it is also one of those roads where the bike path just ends near Scholls Ferry Road.
What I will say is that it is much more pleasant to ride in the section with the bike path than the section without.
And, to expect the bike paths to be viable for all users, one can't just be cruising along and suddenly have the lane end.
What would car drivers think if they were driving along, and their nice 4 lane highway suddenly became a one-way road the other way, with no viable alternative routes.
Last edited by CliffordK; 03-03-15 at 02:34 AM.
03-03-15, 07:05 AM
#105
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 7,384
Mentioned: 49 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 800 Post(s)
Liked 218 Times
in
171 Posts
How can we get more people riding their bikes?
I’m going to be a Captain Bringdown to this thread, but I just posted yesterday to this Commuting thread, ”Beginner Commuting In a Big City”, given the state of current Road transportation,
Public exhortations to cycle-commute, or utility cycle are well and good with no individual responsibility for bad outcomes, but I would not want the recriminations of a personal endorsement if something bad happened.
Also, with regards to “recreational cycling,” actual organizing, promoting, or whatever does entail IMO a liability beyond a personal guilt trip if something goes wrong.
For example, the Fifty-Plus Forum has an Annual Ride at a venue suggested by an individual subscriber. It is always held in conjunction with an organized ride sponsored by a legitimate cycling organization, which assumes the liability. When DnvrFox, organized the first one in 2009, he had the same concerns.
In this Society, IMO, it is what it is, and I just wanted to expose the Dark Side, FWIW. Nonetheless, the Force (to ride) is strong within me and is my own individual responsibility.
Are we talking about getting people to bike more for recreation vs. sitting on the couch or other sports. Or are we talking about getting people to ride more for utility vs. driving?...
+1. Often when these topics come up there's a strong consensus of "we need everyone to start commuting on their bikes and ditch their cars" to which most folks will say "No thanks". I'd be happy if we simply had more people cycling regularly, on public roads, whilst setting fitness goals for themselves. As a society we'd be healthier, and it would mean that the driver in the car you're so worried about is a cyclist too, even if they don't commute on their bike, and is more patient …
Also, with regards to “recreational cycling,” actual organizing, promoting, or whatever does entail IMO a liability beyond a personal guilt trip if something goes wrong.
For example, the Fifty-Plus Forum has an Annual Ride at a venue suggested by an individual subscriber. It is always held in conjunction with an organized ride sponsored by a legitimate cycling organization, which assumes the liability. When DnvrFox, organized the first one in 2009, he had the same concerns.
BFN 50+ Annual Ride: Risk Management and Liability
Having personally been involved in 2 lawsuits - once when my company was sued due to an injury to a client, and once when my son was tha plaintiff due to his devastating injury, I have some pretty good knowledge of what happens when a person is injured and a lawsuit ensues. Believe me, it is NOT pleasant on either side, and consumes tremendous amounts of energy, effort and money.
I believe that our proposed 50+ annual ride in Glenwood next year has progressed beyond a simple gathering together into a more formal "ride."…
Having personally been involved in 2 lawsuits - once when my company was sued due to an injury to a client, and once when my son was tha plaintiff due to his devastating injury, I have some pretty good knowledge of what happens when a person is injured and a lawsuit ensues. Believe me, it is NOT pleasant on either side, and consumes tremendous amounts of energy, effort and money.
I believe that our proposed 50+ annual ride in Glenwood next year has progressed beyond a simple gathering together into a more formal "ride."…
… what's up with all this morbid talk about "make it home alive" and "do anything to survive?" What kinds of hellish warzones are you people riding through to breed such fear and paranoia? How did a thread started to offer advice to a new commuter turn into a group rant about how cyclists are fragile little critters who must dart and dodge to avoid being trampled…I mean, I fully realize and respect the fact that there will always be an element of risk inherent to cycling, but cripes...what an insufferably obstinate bunch of pessimists we have around here...
Last edited by Jim from Boston; 03-03-15 at 07:27 AM.
03-03-15, 03:32 PM
#106
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Stephenville TX
Posts: 3,697
Bikes: 2010 Trek 7100
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 697 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times
in
3 Posts
Move all the uphill sections of road to areas that aren't in my way. Leave the downhills, though.
03-03-15, 03:41 PM
#108
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Posts: 27,547
Mentioned: 217 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18378 Post(s)
Liked 4,512 Times
in
3,354 Posts
Hmmm, I suppose the Google photo does show a car driving on the outer line, but not the inner line. That is without any bikes. There still would be an adequate buffer for a bike as long as it wasn't also riding on the white line.
It still is more comfortable to ride in the section of the road with marked lanes than the section without.
It still is more comfortable to ride in the section of the road with marked lanes than the section without.
03-03-15, 03:49 PM
#109
genec
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Posts: 27,079
Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
Mentioned: 86 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13658 Post(s)
Liked 4,532 Times
in
3,158 Posts
Hmmm, I suppose the Google photo does show a car driving on the outer line, but not the inner line. That is without any bikes. There still would be an adequate buffer for a bike as long as it wasn't also riding on the white line.
It still is more comfortable to ride in the section of the road with marked lanes than the section without.
It still is more comfortable to ride in the section of the road with marked lanes than the section without.
03-03-15, 09:17 PM
#110
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Singapore
Posts: 1,143
Bikes: Fully customized 11-spd MTB built on 2014 Santa Cruz 5010 frame; Brompton S2E-X 2014; Brompton M3E 2014
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17 Post(s)
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
How can we get more people riding their bikes?
I’m going to be a Captain Bringdown to this thread, but I just posted yesterday to this Commuting thread, ”Beginner Commuting In a Big City”, given the state of current Road transportation,
Public exhortations to cycle-commute, or utility cycle are well and good with no individual responsibility for bad outcomes, but I would not want the recriminations of a personal endorsement if something bad happened.
Also, with regards to “recreational cycling,” actual organizing, promoting, or whatever does entail IMO a liability beyond a personal guilt trip if something goes wrong.
For example, the Fifty-Plus Forum has an Annual Ride at a venue suggested by an individual subscriber. It is always held in conjunction with an organized ride sponsored by a legitimate cycling organization, which assumes the liability. When DnvrFox, organized the first one in 2009, he had the same concerns.
In this Society, IMO, it is what it is, and I just wanted to expose the Dark Side, FWIW. Nonetheless, the Force (to ride) is strong within me and is my own individual responsibility.
I’m going to be a Captain Bringdown to this thread, but I just posted yesterday to this Commuting thread, ”Beginner Commuting In a Big City”, given the state of current Road transportation,
Public exhortations to cycle-commute, or utility cycle are well and good with no individual responsibility for bad outcomes, but I would not want the recriminations of a personal endorsement if something bad happened.
Also, with regards to “recreational cycling,” actual organizing, promoting, or whatever does entail IMO a liability beyond a personal guilt trip if something goes wrong.
For example, the Fifty-Plus Forum has an Annual Ride at a venue suggested by an individual subscriber. It is always held in conjunction with an organized ride sponsored by a legitimate cycling organization, which assumes the liability. When DnvrFox, organized the first one in 2009, he had the same concerns.
In this Society, IMO, it is what it is, and I just wanted to expose the Dark Side, FWIW. Nonetheless, the Force (to ride) is strong within me and is my own individual responsibility.
For the "victim", the lure of a big payday could be the only upside to their terrible accident. I can imagine if I was in a similar situation, I might hold out hope for millions of dollars (even if I was undeserving of it) in compensation to stave off the depressing reality of losing a limb or such. I would let myself be convinced by conniving lawyers that it was everyone's fault but mine.
03-03-15, 09:58 PM
#111
Senior Member
On the other hand, without contingency fee lawyers, the poor and middle income have no way to afford pursuing a civil case, so the rich and corporations win by default. I favor a loser pays legal fees system to some extent.
03-04-15, 12:35 AM
#112
contiuniously variable
Go on group rides with rental bikes to show noobs how its done maybe?
I don't like bike lanes, especially ones with a barrier.... a barrier is just one more thing you can crash into.
- Andy
I don't like bike lanes, especially ones with a barrier.... a barrier is just one more thing you can crash into.
- Andy
03-04-15, 08:18 AM
#113
Senior Member
Having cars passing close by at some speed is simply very uncomfortable to most people. That is why the Dutch require greater distance separation for higher speeds.
03-04-15, 08:22 AM
#114
Senior Member
That's kind of the idea. Drivers have no fear of paint but a curb or parked cars or planters keep them on their side of the line. 8 year olds, 18 year olds, and 80 year olds throughout The Netherlands ride on their protected paths without crashing, why can people in the U.S. not manage to do the same?
03-04-15, 08:43 AM
#115
genec
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Posts: 27,079
Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
Mentioned: 86 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13658 Post(s)
Liked 4,532 Times
in
3,158 Posts
That's kind of the idea. Drivers have no fear of paint but a curb or parked cars or planters keep them on their side of the line. 8 year olds, 18 year olds, and 80 year olds throughout The Netherlands ride on their protected paths without crashing, why can people in the U.S. not manage to do the same?
Even the book "Effective Cycling" touts "speed."
03-04-15, 09:17 AM
#116
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Alpharetta, GA
Posts: 15,280
Bikes: Nashbar Road
Mentioned: 71 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2934 Post(s)
Liked 341 Times
in
228 Posts
That's kind of the idea. Drivers have no fear of paint but a curb or parked cars or planters keep them on their side of the line. 8 year olds, 18 year olds, and 80 year olds throughout The Netherlands ride on their protected paths without crashing, why can people in the U.S. not manage to do the same?
The only thing missing is convenience. People generally feeling safer and more confident, with convenient routes, will surely lead to greater participation.
03-04-15, 10:30 AM
#117
Senior Member
It seems obvious doesn't it, that most people feel safer and more confident with a physical barrier or even a marked, decent amount of separation. I know that I do, and I am one of those who approach it as a sport. But even if I didn't feel that way, the fact is that it's a common perception.
The only thing missing is convenience. People generally feeling safer and more confident, with convenient routes, will surely lead to greater participation.
The only thing missing is convenience. People generally feeling safer and more confident, with convenient routes, will surely lead to greater participation.
03-04-15, 10:34 AM
#118
Senior Member
There are a gob of people in The Netherlands who race, both pro and amateur, and don't seem to have any problems training.
03-04-15, 11:17 AM
#119
genec
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Posts: 27,079
Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
Mentioned: 86 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13658 Post(s)
Liked 4,532 Times
in
3,158 Posts
Then compare the wannabe racers in the US, to the over all population that regularly rides bikes and doesn't race...
I suspect you'll find vastly more folks on race type bikes and wearing race type kits in the US... due to how cycling is (poorly) marketed here... as a sport, vice as transportation. In fact if you bike in the US for transportation needs, you are considered strange and an outlier... I doubt that folks in the Netherlands who bike for transportation feel that way.
03-04-15, 11:37 AM
#120
Been Around Awhile
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Posts: 29,974
Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked 1,536 Times
in
1,045 Posts
03-04-15, 11:42 AM
#121
Been Around Awhile
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Posts: 29,974
Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked 1,536 Times
in
1,045 Posts
Let me know if you have ever seen them riding in "training" mode or dressed in their racing costume while commuting, shopping, visiting, etc. on a bike.
03-04-15, 11:47 AM
#122
genec
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Posts: 27,079
Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
Mentioned: 86 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13658 Post(s)
Liked 4,532 Times
in
3,158 Posts
03-04-15, 12:01 PM
#123
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: D'uh... I am a Cutter
Posts: 6,139
Bikes: '17 Access Old Turnpike Gravel bike, '14 Trek 1.1, '13 Cannondale CAAD 10, '98 CAD 2, R300
Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1571 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 12 Times
in
9 Posts
That's a great line! It's almost like something that could be used in a movie... or something. But I wonder. As a real-life practical long-term solution... has that ever worked anywhere, on the entire planet, at anytime in history?
I apologize for being so practical (it is my nature and cannot be changed). I believe real solutions can be found that advances progress toward realistic goals. Dreamy what-if sessions aren't easy for me.
I apologize for being so practical (it is my nature and cannot be changed). I believe real solutions can be found that advances progress toward realistic goals. Dreamy what-if sessions aren't easy for me.
03-04-15, 12:20 PM
#124
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Posts: 27,547
Mentioned: 217 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18378 Post(s)
Liked 4,512 Times
in
3,354 Posts
Colleges across the country are a meca for bike commuters.
Lots of people on a shoestring budget, but perhaps getting expensive gifts.
Everyone living close to campus, or on campus.
Average commutes of a mile or so tops.
And, nobody cares if a person is 10 minutes late for class.
In a sense, it becomes a perfect bike commuter haven.
Get out in the "Real World" and distances are longer, schedules are stricter, incomes higher... and the bikes get forgotten in the basement.
Talking of speeds, distances, bike types, etc. There are 2 types of "bike commuters". The short distance bikers, and the long distance bikers.
I would venture to say that one needs both. One has the "Electra Style Bicycles". Fenders, fat tires, not a lot of gears. Perfect for riding a block or two for errands. No need to drive to the corner store.
Then one has the racers and long distance commuters. Those that don't blink at a 10+ mile commute. They are also important in demonstrating the viability of bike commuting. (Unless they convince the people in their cozy cars with seat-warmers to think "I'm glad I'm not that guy").
As far as clothing....
I see a few cyclists out on country roads with their racing clothing and team sponsor names plastered all over their clothes (probably teams that aren't sponsoring the individual riders). But the majority of the bike commuters wear pretty ordinary clothing. They're lucky if they have a bike specific coat on in the winter.
I've been bike commuting with toeclips since I was about 10, but perhaps I was the only one that showed up to my gradeschool with toeclips. My new cleats are nice, but it also seems to be a minority of the bikers.
Anyway, there are many different bike commuters, but there is too much urban sprawl, and too much "comfort".
Lots of people on a shoestring budget, but perhaps getting expensive gifts.
Everyone living close to campus, or on campus.
Average commutes of a mile or so tops.
And, nobody cares if a person is 10 minutes late for class.
In a sense, it becomes a perfect bike commuter haven.
Get out in the "Real World" and distances are longer, schedules are stricter, incomes higher... and the bikes get forgotten in the basement.
Talking of speeds, distances, bike types, etc. There are 2 types of "bike commuters". The short distance bikers, and the long distance bikers.
I would venture to say that one needs both. One has the "Electra Style Bicycles". Fenders, fat tires, not a lot of gears. Perfect for riding a block or two for errands. No need to drive to the corner store.
Then one has the racers and long distance commuters. Those that don't blink at a 10+ mile commute. They are also important in demonstrating the viability of bike commuting. (Unless they convince the people in their cozy cars with seat-warmers to think "I'm glad I'm not that guy").
As far as clothing....
I see a few cyclists out on country roads with their racing clothing and team sponsor names plastered all over their clothes (probably teams that aren't sponsoring the individual riders). But the majority of the bike commuters wear pretty ordinary clothing. They're lucky if they have a bike specific coat on in the winter.
I've been bike commuting with toeclips since I was about 10, but perhaps I was the only one that showed up to my gradeschool with toeclips. My new cleats are nice, but it also seems to be a minority of the bikers.
Anyway, there are many different bike commuters, but there is too much urban sprawl, and too much "comfort".
03-04-15, 12:50 PM
#125
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Stephenville TX
Posts: 3,697
Bikes: 2010 Trek 7100
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 697 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times
in
3 Posts
Then there are those, like me, who prefer to keep the bike as an option; when the weather is nasty, I've got a car. When it's nice out and I've got time, I'll save some gas. One doesn't have to pick an extreme in bike commuting any more than any other activity.