Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Advocacy & Safety
Reload this Page >

Should children 'take the lane' ?

Notices
Advocacy & Safety Cyclists should expect and demand safe accommodation on every public road, just as do all other users. Discuss your bicycle advocacy and safety concerns here.

Should children 'take the lane' ?

Old 03-02-15, 11:23 AM
  #1  
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
CrankyOne's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 2,403
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 358 Post(s)
Liked 48 Times in 35 Posts
Should children 'take the lane' ?

The safe routes to school program apparently teaches children (over 8?) to drive their bike like a car, 'take the lane', and never ride on sidewalks.

"Another safety rule is: we do not ride our bikes on sidewalks. Why do you think that is? > Riding our bicycles on the sidewalk is dangerous and is only recommended for children younger than age nine."

Is anyone very familiar with this? Am I missing something? Does this seem nutty?

https://www.dot.state.mn.us/saferoute...curriculum.pdf
CrankyOne is offline  
Old 03-02-15, 11:33 AM
  #2  
Been Around Awhile
 
I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Posts: 29,952

Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked 1,517 Times in 1,031 Posts
Page 56: Not riding on the sidewalk is one of the five key rules for bicyclists.

The negative influence of Effective/Vehicular Cycling Ideology and its disciples on any education program associated with the the League of American Bicyclists still raises its ugly head.
I-Like-To-Bike is offline  
Old 03-02-15, 11:47 AM
  #3  
Senior Member
 
Number400's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: South Central PA
Posts: 972

Bikes: Cannondale Slate 105 and T2 tandem, 2008 Scott Addict R4, Raleigh SC drop bar tandem

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 22 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
With a recent tandem purchase, I have been faced with that choice when my 10yo was riding stoker. Even with him on the bike, if the situation calls for me to put myself into a position to obstruct the lane to prevent a bad/unsafe pass, I do it. I am also scouting out a backup plan if the vehicle driver attempts to pass anyway.

It's never cut and dry though. When I educate my 3 kids on bicycle safety, I stress that the best way to stay safe around vehicles is to avoid them altogether. Watch for pinch points, don't put yourself into a tricky situation and use your best judgement. I also tell them to listen to see if the driver has lifted from the throttle, what speed the vehicle is going in relation to the conditions (blind curve, hill, oncoming traffic), etc... and to never trust that anyone has seen you and even cares to be cautious if they do see you.
Number400 is offline  
Old 03-02-15, 11:52 AM
  #4  
Tortoise Wins by a Hare!
 
AlmostTrick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Looney Tunes, IL
Posts: 7,398

Bikes: Wabi Special FG, Raleigh Roper, Nashbar AL-1, Miyata One Hundred, '70 Schwinn Lemonator and More!!

Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1549 Post(s)
Liked 941 Times in 504 Posts
It doesn't sound nutty to me. I was hit by a car when I was ten years old. Riding on the wrong side of the road in the gutter. I doubt it would have happened had I been on the correct side, in the proper lane position... which sometimes is in the center of the lane.
AlmostTrick is offline  
Old 03-02-15, 11:59 AM
  #5  
Been Around Awhile
 
I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Posts: 29,952

Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked 1,517 Times in 1,031 Posts
Originally Posted by Number400
It's never cut and dry though.
That is the bottom line, for adults as well as children, a fact never understood by the proselytizers for Hard and Fast Rules of Proper Bicycling™ such as "Take the Lane" and "Never Ride on the Sidewalk."
I-Like-To-Bike is offline  
Old 03-02-15, 12:04 PM
  #6  
Galveston County Texas
 
10 Wheels's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: In The Wind
Posts: 33,221

Bikes: 02 GTO, 2011 Magnum

Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1346 Post(s)
Liked 1,236 Times in 617 Posts
13 is the magic age here.

Under 13 sidewalks

Over 13 road or street.
__________________
Fred "The Real Fred"

10 Wheels is offline  
Old 03-02-15, 12:13 PM
  #7  
Senior Member
 
howsteepisit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Eugene, OR
Posts: 4,335

Bikes: Canyon Endurace SLX 8Di2

Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 509 Post(s)
Liked 30 Times in 14 Posts
I am surprised that the parent/motorists of Mn have not raised holy heck about the take the lane part. General acceptance of cyclists taking the lane seems pretty low to me, and when children are taught things that conflict with the parents view of the world (right or wring makes no difference) there is usually a huge outcry. I still see some parents teaching their kids to ride on the edge against traffic.

EDIT: After reading through the linked program guide, its pretty decent. A lot is what I would think is the parents responsibility to teach a growing child, but as some folks have turned that over to the schools, the program itself is pretty good. OK the dropping watermelons to simulate un-helmeted bicycle riding is over the top, but its still OK. Furthermore, I believe that to normalize utilitarian cycling it has to be introduced as a normal activity to children, by the time they grow to adulthood there are far too many prejudices introduced.

Last edited by howsteepisit; 03-02-15 at 12:54 PM.
howsteepisit is offline  
Old 03-02-15, 12:35 PM
  #8  
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: NA
Posts: 4,267

Bikes: NA

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 7 Times in 7 Posts
Originally Posted by CrankyOne
Is anyone very familiar with this? Am I missing something? Does this seem nutty?
Text underneath a diagram depicting a (child) cyclist crossing three arterial lanes from a bike lane in order to make a left turn.

Demonstrate how to drive their bicycle safely through an intersection.
It's nucking futs.

Last edited by spare_wheel; 03-02-15 at 12:42 PM.
spare_wheel is offline  
Old 03-02-15, 12:51 PM
  #9  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Bay Area, Calif.
Posts: 7,239
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 659 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 7 Times in 6 Posts
Originally Posted by AlmostTrick
It doesn't sound nutty to me.
Doesn't sound nutty to me either. The only child cyclist fatality that I can remember in our town was specifically a result of the opposite instruction given here - i.e. for those 12 and under to ride on the sidewalk. As a result, a student at the elementary school on our street was riding on the sidewalk into a crosswalk and wasn't seen until it was too late by a school bus driver. A hedge limiting visibility was also a factor and was chopped down the next day.
prathmann is offline  
Old 03-02-15, 12:55 PM
  #10  
Senior Member
 
Dave Cutter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: D'uh... I am a Cutter
Posts: 6,159

Bikes: '17 Access Old Turnpike Gravel bike, '14 Trek 1.1, '13 Cannondale CAAD 10, '98 CAD 2, R300

Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1571 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 12 Times in 9 Posts
I am an old man. I think I'd be considered an experienced cyclist. I have no problem with taking the lane... and almost always do.

But on the other hand... I also have no problem slowing to a gentile roll and using the sidewalk to get around tree trimmers and other service personal when mixed with local traffic congestion. I also don't mind dismounting and walking my bicycle across a busy intersection at rush hour. My only hard and fast rule is to make it home alive. My wife depends on me being there... when my pay check arrives.

Being safe means knowing what is dangerous and why. Riding on the sidewalk is dangerous... particularly at any speed. Cars never seem to look for traffic crossing the driveways and parking lot entries. So... a car will turn in to their home or drug store never expecting a child (or adult) to be there. Pedestrians and small children move along slow enough to avoid the cars and to be easier to spot. But a quick moving silent bicycle will just "appear" in front of a motorist.
Dave Cutter is offline  
Old 03-02-15, 01:06 PM
  #11  
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
CrankyOne's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 2,403
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 358 Post(s)
Liked 48 Times in 35 Posts
For those who agree with teaching children to take the lane and not ride on sidewalks. To get almost anywhere in our suburbs requires travel along a road that is 2 to 5 lanes and sometime as many as 7 at intersections. Speed limits range from 40 to 55 with actual speeds about 5 to 10 over. A surprising number of these have no shoulder or only about 1'.

Better for a child to ride in the lane with 50 mph traffic on a 5-lane road or ride on the adjacent 8' - 10' wide sidewalk?

What if the sidewalk is separated from the road by 5' of grass and is asphalt so really a MUP or bike path?
CrankyOne is offline  
Old 03-02-15, 01:08 PM
  #12  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Bay Area, Calif.
Posts: 7,239
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 659 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 7 Times in 6 Posts
Originally Posted by spare_wheel
Text underneath a diagram depicting a (child) cyclist crossing three arterial lanes from a bike lane in order to make a left turn.
The diagrams I see (such as on page 71) actually show only one lane in each direction (i.e. a two-lane road), but with the single lane divided into thirds to indicate different riding positions. I.e. normally riding toward the right part of the lane (position '3') but moving toward the center (position '2') if there are parked cars or other hazards and toward the left (position '1') if preparing for a left turn. The whole guide seems appropriately geared toward riding on local neighborhood residential streets for going to school or visiting nearby friends.

Last edited by prathmann; 03-02-15 at 01:29 PM.
prathmann is offline  
Old 03-02-15, 01:11 PM
  #13  
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: NA
Posts: 4,267

Bikes: NA

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 7 Times in 7 Posts
Originally Posted by prathmann
The diagrams I see (such as on page 71) actually show only one lane in each direction (i.e. a two-lane road),
See page 67.
It's beyond ridiculous to expect a minor to pull that maneuver. Actually its ridiculous to expect most adults to pull that type of maneuver.
spare_wheel is offline  
Old 03-02-15, 01:35 PM
  #14  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Bay Area, Calif.
Posts: 7,239
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 659 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 7 Times in 6 Posts
Originally Posted by spare_wheel
See page 67.
It's beyond ridiculous to expect a minor to pull that maneuver. Actually its ridiculous to expect most adults to pull that type of maneuver.
Page 67 shows exactly the same road type as is explained in more detail and with instruction on page 71. Both are showing a two-lane road (one lane in each direction) but with the single lane divided into thirds to show the cyclist normally riding toward the right (position '3') but moving to the left for specific situations, incl. to the leftmost third (position '1') when preparing for a left turn.
prathmann is offline  
Old 03-02-15, 01:44 PM
  #15  
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
CrankyOne's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 2,403
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 358 Post(s)
Liked 48 Times in 35 Posts
Originally Posted by prathmann
Page 67 shows exactly the same road type as is explained in more detail and with instruction on page 71. Both are showing a two-lane road (one lane in each direction) but with the single lane divided into thirds to show the cyclist normally riding toward the right (position '3') but moving to the left for specific situations, incl. to the leftmost third (position '1') when preparing for a left turn.
I think this would be fine on a residential street with 25 mph speed limits. We don't have any of those because the state sets a 30 mph minimum speed limit for all roadways and even so it's quite common for people to drive 40 mph or more on our standard 30' wide residential streets.

The thought of a 9 or 10 year old or even a 14 year old doing this in front of 50 mph traffic does not seem advisable.

I also wonder what would happen if all of the kids that today ride on the sidewalk suddenly started riding in the roadway and causing all the cars to slow to 10 mph.
CrankyOne is offline  
Old 03-02-15, 01:56 PM
  #16  
Senior Member
 
kickstart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Kent Wa.
Posts: 5,332

Bikes: 2005 Gazelle Golfo, 1935 Raleigh Sport, 1970 Robin Hood sport, 1974 Schwinn Continental, 1984 Ross MTB/porteur, 2013 Flying Piegon path racer, 2014 Gazelle Toer Populair T8

Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 396 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 8 Times in 7 Posts
Originally Posted by spare_wheel
See page 67.
It's beyond ridiculous to expect a minor to pull that maneuver. Actually its ridiculous to expect most adults to pull that type of maneuver.
Prathmann is correct, its showing a 2 lane road divided into 3 "lane positions". I don't think even the most rabid VCer would advocate a child using the left lane of a 6 lane arterial, that would be insane.
kickstart is offline  
Old 03-02-15, 01:56 PM
  #17  
24-Speed Machine
 
Chris516's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Wash. Grove, MD
Posts: 6,058

Bikes: 2003 Specialized Allez 24-Speed Road Bike

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
I lived in the city of Duluth(Minnesota) for four years. Children should 'take the lane'. I just hope they wouldn't do it on the streets that go north-south. As opposed to those streets that go east-west.

Duluth is on the shores of Lake Superior, and to get to places like Miller Hill Mall. Without taking the bus or driving. They would have to go north on U.S. 53. A high traffic artery in the city.

Last edited by Chris516; 03-02-15 at 02:07 PM.
Chris516 is offline  
Old 03-02-15, 02:01 PM
  #18  
Senior Member
 
kickstart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Kent Wa.
Posts: 5,332

Bikes: 2005 Gazelle Golfo, 1935 Raleigh Sport, 1970 Robin Hood sport, 1974 Schwinn Continental, 1984 Ross MTB/porteur, 2013 Flying Piegon path racer, 2014 Gazelle Toer Populair T8

Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 396 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 8 Times in 7 Posts
Originally Posted by Dave Cutter

Being safe means knowing what is dangerous and why. Riding on the sidewalk is dangerous... particularly at any speed. Cars never seem to look for traffic crossing the driveways and parking lot entries. So... a car will turn in to their home or drug store never expecting a child (or adult) to be there. Pedestrians and small children move along slow enough to avoid the cars and to be easier to spot. But a quick moving silent bicycle will just "appear" in front of a motorist.
Cycling on the sidewalk is just as safe as cycling on the road........ If one cycles like they're on a sidewalk rather than on the road. Its just a different skill set.
kickstart is offline  
Old 03-02-15, 02:05 PM
  #19  
Senior Member
 
intransit1217's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Kenosha , Wi
Posts: 1,231

Bikes: 2 Masi giramondo

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 46 Post(s)
Liked 6 Times in 6 Posts
Motorists don't care. You are in the lane, you are in their way. Legal or not. If you get clipped or hit, hopefully it won't leave you paralyzed, or put you in the hospital for any length, regardless of winning in court.

Needless to say, I'm no longer a fan of bike lanes and or taking the lane. No bicycle will ever win vs auto. Physics trump laws most of the time.
intransit1217 is offline  
Old 03-02-15, 02:10 PM
  #20  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Bay Area, Calif.
Posts: 7,239
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 659 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 7 Times in 6 Posts
Originally Posted by CrankyOne
I think this would be fine on a residential street with 25 mph speed limits. We don't have any of those because the state sets a 30 mph minimum speed limit for all roadways ...
According to https://www.house.leg.state.mn.us/hrd...ss/ssspdlt.pdf
"On a residential roadway, local authorities can reduce the speed limit to 25 mph." and to 15 mph in school zones.
I also wonder what would happen if all of the kids that today ride on the sidewalk suddenly started riding in the roadway and causing all the cars to slow to 10 mph.
Good to hear that you have so many kids riding. These days I see so few kids bicycling that I don't think it would have any significant impact on other traffic no matter where they were riding.
prathmann is offline  
Old 03-02-15, 02:16 PM
  #21  
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
CrankyOne's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 2,403
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 358 Post(s)
Liked 48 Times in 35 Posts
Originally Posted by prathmann
"On a residential roadway, local authorities can reduce the speed limit to 25 mph."
The rest of my sentence said "and even so it's quite common for people to drive 40 mph or more on our standard 30' wide residential streets."
CrankyOne is offline  
Old 03-02-15, 02:16 PM
  #22  
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: NA
Posts: 4,267

Bikes: NA

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 7 Times in 7 Posts
Originally Posted by prathmann
Page 67 shows exactly the same road type as is explained in more detail and with instruction on page 71. Both are showing a two-lane road (one lane in each direction) but with the single lane divided into thirds to show the cyclist normally riding toward the right (position '3') but moving to the left for specific situations, incl. to the leftmost third (position '1') when preparing for a left turn.

my bad...that's what i get for not reading the text in detail.

nevertheless, that's still not the kind of maneuver i would want a young child to pull.

Last edited by spare_wheel; 03-02-15 at 02:24 PM.
spare_wheel is offline  
Old 03-02-15, 02:24 PM
  #23  
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: NA
Posts: 4,267

Bikes: NA

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 7 Times in 7 Posts
Originally Posted by kickstart
Cycling on the sidewalk is just as safe as cycling on the road........ If one cycles like they're on a sidewalk rather than on the road. Its just a different skill set.
i agree and even as an adult i will take the sidewalk when it's safer or quicker.

i think sidewalk riding is a must for younger children since they, in general, lack the maturity to be making split-second decisions in car traffic.
spare_wheel is offline  
Old 03-02-15, 02:53 PM
  #24  
Been Around Awhile
 
I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Posts: 29,952

Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked 1,517 Times in 1,031 Posts
Originally Posted by kickstart
I don't think even the most rabid VCer would advocate a child using the left lane of a 6 lane arterial, that would be insane.
I think that the most rabid VCers, as well as some not as rabid, give little consideration to any other bicyclists than those who fit their own cycling profile, mostly experienced older club cyclists and other very experienced recreational/sport cyclists, and less than zero consideration to the needs of children and transportational cyclists.
I-Like-To-Bike is offline  
Old 03-02-15, 02:55 PM
  #25  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Eugene, Oregon
Posts: 7,048
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 509 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 9 Times in 8 Posts
Maybe I have a warped perspective, but since I rode extensively as a child, have continued to ride extensively as an adult, and have ridden extensively with my child as well as others, I just don't see any problem with teaching children how to ride properly. It seems obvious to me that knowing how and when to take the lane is a basic riding skill, right up there with being able to brake properly. Not being able to do it would be rather restrictive and/or dangerous if one intends to use a bicycle to meet one's transportation desires.

For those of you who haven't ridden with children, it is a different experience than riding alone or with other adults. That small percentage of motorists who appear to hate cyclists and do all sorts of obnoxious close passes seemingly designed to "teach you a lesson" disappear when a child is in the picture. People who have no patience for an adult on a bike slowing them down will happily wait all day for a child. When they pass it is almost as if they actually care about the child's well-being. One of my neighbors has four children. He thought our local motorists were very courteous until his kids got older and he found himself mostly riding without them. He was shocked at how much more aggression he faced when he didn't have an escort of children.

Now if we could just get the adults who ride on bike paths to give children the same safety/courtesy that motorists give them on the road, we might just get some of those children to enjoy riding their bikes.
B. Carfree is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.