Should children 'take the lane' ?
03-02-15, 03:27 PM
#26
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Maybe I have a warped perspective, but since I rode extensively as a child, have continued to ride extensively as an adult, and have ridden extensively with my child as well as others, I just don't see any problem with teaching children how to ride properly. It seems obvious to me that knowing how and when to take the lane is a basic riding skill, right up there with being able to brake properly. Not being able to do it would be rather restrictive and/or dangerous if one intends to use a bicycle to meet one's transportation desires.
For those of you who haven't ridden with children, it is a different experience than riding alone or with other adults. That small percentage of motorists who appear to hate cyclists and do all sorts of obnoxious close passes seemingly designed to "teach you a lesson" disappear when a child is in the picture. People who have no patience for an adult on a bike slowing them down will happily wait all day for a child. When they pass it is almost as if they actually care about the child's well-being. One of my neighbors has four children. He thought our local motorists were very courteous until his kids got older and he found himself mostly riding without them. He was shocked at how much more aggression he faced when he didn't have an escort of children.
Now if we could just get the adults who ride on bike paths to give children the same safety/courtesy that motorists give them on the road, we might just get some of those children to enjoy riding their bikes.
For those of you who haven't ridden with children, it is a different experience than riding alone or with other adults. That small percentage of motorists who appear to hate cyclists and do all sorts of obnoxious close passes seemingly designed to "teach you a lesson" disappear when a child is in the picture. People who have no patience for an adult on a bike slowing them down will happily wait all day for a child. When they pass it is almost as if they actually care about the child's well-being. One of my neighbors has four children. He thought our local motorists were very courteous until his kids got older and he found himself mostly riding without them. He was shocked at how much more aggression he faced when he didn't have an escort of children.
Now if we could just get the adults who ride on bike paths to give children the same safety/courtesy that motorists give them on the road, we might just get some of those children to enjoy riding their bikes.
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03-02-15, 04:03 PM
#27
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I am an old man. I think I'd be considered an experienced cyclist. I have no problem with taking the lane... and almost always do.
But on the other hand... I also have no problem slowing to a gentile roll and using the sidewalk to get around tree trimmers and other service personal when mixed with local traffic congestion. I also don't mind dismounting and walking my bicycle across a busy intersection at rush hour. My only hard and fast rule is to make it home alive. My wife depends on me being there... when my pay check arrives.
Being safe means knowing what is dangerous and why. Riding on the sidewalk is dangerous... particularly at any speed. Cars never seem to look for traffic crossing the driveways and parking lot entries. So... a car will turn in to their home or drug store never expecting a child (or adult) to be there. Pedestrians and small children move along slow enough to avoid the cars and to be easier to spot. But a quick moving silent bicycle will just "appear" in front of a motorist.
But on the other hand... I also have no problem slowing to a gentile roll and using the sidewalk to get around tree trimmers and other service personal when mixed with local traffic congestion. I also don't mind dismounting and walking my bicycle across a busy intersection at rush hour. My only hard and fast rule is to make it home alive. My wife depends on me being there... when my pay check arrives.
Being safe means knowing what is dangerous and why. Riding on the sidewalk is dangerous... particularly at any speed. Cars never seem to look for traffic crossing the driveways and parking lot entries. So... a car will turn in to their home or drug store never expecting a child (or adult) to be there. Pedestrians and small children move along slow enough to avoid the cars and to be easier to spot. But a quick moving silent bicycle will just "appear" in front of a motorist.
But on the issue of sidewalks... what so many here fail to take into account is that are not particularly dangerous... it is the driveways that are the problem. There are places where sidewalks can go on for miles without a single driveway... and in such cases, the sidewalk IS perfectly safe. On the other hand, there are areas where the sidewalk is nothing but driveway... and in those cases, one is better off taking a lane vice riding to the right of MV traffic that can at any time choose to suddenly turn into a driveway.
03-02-15, 04:34 PM
#28
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None of the folks who agree with this program have responded to my earlier comment/question - should they not ride on an asphalt 'sidewalk' either? Or an asphalt 'sidewalk' posing as a MUP or bikepath? What's the difference?
03-02-15, 05:41 PM
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Driveways are the issue... not sidewalks. Teach kids to watch for driveways and they can ride where ever they want.
03-02-15, 06:09 PM
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Teach them to respect driveways when cycling like they would when they're walking. The problem is people seldom want to interrupt their momentum, which leads them to zoom past a driveway. Obviously, 99.95% of the time it's all good, until they meet that 0.05%...
03-02-15, 06:33 PM
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I am an old man. I think I'd be considered an experienced cyclist. I have no problem with taking the lane... and almost always do.
But on the other hand... I also have no problem slowing to a gentile roll and using the sidewalk to get around tree trimmers and other service personal when mixed with local traffic congestion. I also don't mind dismounting and walking my bicycle across a busy intersection at rush hour. My only hard and fast rule is to make it home alive. My wife depends on me being there... when my pay check arrives.
Being safe means knowing what is dangerous and why. Riding on the sidewalk is dangerous... particularly at any speed. Cars never seem to look for traffic crossing the driveways and parking lot entries. So... a car will turn in to their home or drug store never expecting a child (or adult) to be there. Pedestrians and small children move along slow enough to avoid the cars and to be easier to spot. But a quick moving silent bicycle will just "appear" in front of a motorist.
But on the other hand... I also have no problem slowing to a gentile roll and using the sidewalk to get around tree trimmers and other service personal when mixed with local traffic congestion. I also don't mind dismounting and walking my bicycle across a busy intersection at rush hour. My only hard and fast rule is to make it home alive. My wife depends on me being there... when my pay check arrives.
Being safe means knowing what is dangerous and why. Riding on the sidewalk is dangerous... particularly at any speed. Cars never seem to look for traffic crossing the driveways and parking lot entries. So... a car will turn in to their home or drug store never expecting a child (or adult) to be there. Pedestrians and small children move along slow enough to avoid the cars and to be easier to spot. But a quick moving silent bicycle will just "appear" in front of a motorist.
"My only hard and fast rule is to make it home alive. My wife depends on me being there... when my pay check arrives."
Exactly...I'd rather be alive than technically correct.
I shared similar advice w/my sons when teaching them to ride/drive - just because you are "right" doesn't mean you should put yourself or others at risk. As number400 said: "It's never cut and dried."
Sidewalks for example...potentially very dangerous to ride on. But I ride on sections of sidewalks frequently on a couple of regular rides. Those sidewalks are 1) not broken by any driveways, and 2) almost always entirely empty of pedestrians...if pedestrians are there I stop in advance of them and walk my bike past them.
End of the day, I think the safest approach is to be smart, flexible about our "rules," and remember that in some cases the best approach might be to not ride at a given time, or in a given place. Just because we "should" be able to doesn't mean we must.
03-02-15, 06:37 PM
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We started riding in the street at about 12. We weren't aware of the term 'taking the lane', but we were taught to ride outside the door zone and that effectively meant taking the lane. It's the safest way to ride and children should be taught to ride in the safest manner possible.
03-02-15, 10:56 PM
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The problem with riding on sidewalks that have driveways is that since one is out of the normal place for motorists to be scanning for traffic, you are effectively invisible. That means that you have to watch for cars exiting the driveway, where those turning right will only look to their left, as well as cars looking to enter the driveway from both in front of you and those overtaking you. Actively scanning over 270 degrees while travelling at a reduced speed takes quite a bit of skill, probably more than a typical eight-year-old has.
03-02-15, 11:21 PM
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My 10 year old boy rides to school, and we found a suitable route that he can ride on the sidewalk. He knows to be looking for cars at interaction points, and to assume that all cars will not see him, and to act accordingly. When we ride together, we occasionally ride routes on the roads, and I will try to ease him into this more in the next couple of years. For younger grade school aged children, I don't think the rules of the road are understood well enough to be a part of the road traffic system, and it is probably best to avoid this traffic all together until that understanding further develops.
Make sure to let sidewalk riders know that pedestrians on foot always have the right of way to claim the sidewalk, and to ride at an appropriate (slower) speed.
Make sure to let sidewalk riders know that pedestrians on foot always have the right of way to claim the sidewalk, and to ride at an appropriate (slower) speed.
03-02-15, 11:38 PM
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With a recent tandem purchase, I have been faced with that choice when my 10yo was riding stoker. Even with him on the bike, if the situation calls for me to put myself into a position to obstruct the lane to prevent a bad/unsafe pass, I do it. I am also scouting out a backup plan if the vehicle driver attempts to pass anyway.
It's never cut and dry though. When I educate my 3 kids on bicycle safety, I stress that the best way to stay safe around vehicles is to avoid them altogether. Watch for pinch points, don't put yourself into a tricky situation and use your best judgement. I also tell them to listen to see if the driver has lifted from the throttle, what speed the vehicle is going in relation to the conditions (blind curve, hill, oncoming traffic), etc... and to never trust that anyone has seen you and even cares to be cautious if they do see you.
It's never cut and dry though. When I educate my 3 kids on bicycle safety, I stress that the best way to stay safe around vehicles is to avoid them altogether. Watch for pinch points, don't put yourself into a tricky situation and use your best judgement. I also tell them to listen to see if the driver has lifted from the throttle, what speed the vehicle is going in relation to the conditions (blind curve, hill, oncoming traffic), etc... and to never trust that anyone has seen you and even cares to be cautious if they do see you.
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03-03-15, 12:30 AM
#36
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Motorists don't care. You are in the lane, you are in their way. Legal or not. If you get clipped or hit, hopefully it won't leave you paralyzed, or put you in the hospital for any length, regardless of winning in court.
Needless to say, I'm no longer a fan of bike lanes and or taking the lane. No bicycle will ever win vs auto. Physics trump laws most of the time.
Needless to say, I'm no longer a fan of bike lanes and or taking the lane. No bicycle will ever win vs auto. Physics trump laws most of the time.
I have not been a fan of bike lanes for a long time.
03-03-15, 01:34 AM
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Interesting course.
Yesterday I was reading an accident statistics site:
Index - Crash-Type Manual for Bicyclists
Some of the types of accidents mentioned were heavily weighted towards kids such as riding out of a driveway into traffic. Others hit the older commuters.
Riding on sidewalks is bad for pedestrians, and also problematic for driveways coming across the sidewalk. But, I do like MUTs where they exist. There are a few places that it is hard to distinguish between a sidwalk and a MUT.
The course did seem to emphasize staying to the right and PREDICTABILITY, with one of the types of accidents most commonly with children is overtaking cars and the bike taking unpredictable evasive actions.
Left hand turn positioning is complex.
If it is a single lane, I usually "take the lane", or hang out to the right until the traffic clears. More commonly, there is a separate turn lane. If I am the first vehicle stopped a the light, most commonly I'll choose to take the lane, perhaps right of center (green). Otherwise, I'm most likely to stay to the right, essentially between the turn lane and the traffic lane (red). The reason for that if a person hangs out to the left, and a car pulls up to one's right, then one has to cross traffic to return to the right side of the road.
Now, if I could only convince cars not to hang 10 feet behind me, but rather to pull up close enough that they trigger the light sensor.
Yesterday I was reading an accident statistics site:
Index - Crash-Type Manual for Bicyclists
Some of the types of accidents mentioned were heavily weighted towards kids such as riding out of a driveway into traffic. Others hit the older commuters.
Riding on sidewalks is bad for pedestrians, and also problematic for driveways coming across the sidewalk. But, I do like MUTs where they exist. There are a few places that it is hard to distinguish between a sidwalk and a MUT.
The course did seem to emphasize staying to the right and PREDICTABILITY, with one of the types of accidents most commonly with children is overtaking cars and the bike taking unpredictable evasive actions.
Left hand turn positioning is complex.
If it is a single lane, I usually "take the lane", or hang out to the right until the traffic clears. More commonly, there is a separate turn lane. If I am the first vehicle stopped a the light, most commonly I'll choose to take the lane, perhaps right of center (green). Otherwise, I'm most likely to stay to the right, essentially between the turn lane and the traffic lane (red). The reason for that if a person hangs out to the left, and a car pulls up to one's right, then one has to cross traffic to return to the right side of the road.
Now, if I could only convince cars not to hang 10 feet behind me, but rather to pull up close enough that they trigger the light sensor.
03-03-15, 02:57 AM
#38
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The problem with riding on sidewalks that have driveways is that since one is out of the normal place for motorists to be scanning for traffic, you are effectively invisible. That means that you have to watch for cars exiting the driveway, where those turning right will only look to their left, as well as cars looking to enter the driveway from both in front of you and those overtaking you. Actively scanning over 270 degrees while travelling at a reduced speed takes quite a bit of skill, probably more than a typical eight-year-old has.
That said, I hate helicopter parenting and I would want my daughter to ride safely on the road as soon as I believe she is capable of it.
03-03-15, 09:08 AM
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I think this would be fine on a residential street with 25 mph speed limits. We don't have any of those because the state sets a 30 mph minimum speed limit for all roadways and even so it's quite common for people to drive 40 mph or more on our standard 30' wide residential streets.
03-03-15, 02:42 PM
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03-03-15, 02:58 PM
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I encourage my kids to ride in the lane as appropriate. Seen too many get right hooked hugging the curb. On a major arterial, that sidewalk looks better and better,BUT
there's another set of risks- cars coming out of driveways etc. The main thing to teach kids is to correctly choose the lowest risk . sometimes it's the road, sometimes not.
That said, I don't think the minn dot program is "nuts".
Here's my kids ( 14, 12, 9, and 7)- OMG! In The Lane!
there's another set of risks- cars coming out of driveways etc. The main thing to teach kids is to correctly choose the lowest risk . sometimes it's the road, sometimes not.
That said, I don't think the minn dot program is "nuts".
Here's my kids ( 14, 12, 9, and 7)- OMG! In The Lane!
03-03-15, 08:32 PM
#43
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Should children likewise be told to never ride on a bike path running beside a road? Same problem with driveways except the bike riders are 10 or 15 feet from the road so perhaps more difficult to see than if they are on a sidewalk directly adjacent.
03-03-15, 08:36 PM
#44
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It amazes me how often we'll (U.S. & UK) have one word for a variety of things that might have 8 different and more explicit words in other languages.
03-03-15, 08:38 PM
#45
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03-03-15, 09:01 PM
#46
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I prefer to see younger kids on the sidewalk.... but never ride against traffic on the sidewalk
03-03-15, 09:08 PM
#47
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Personally I'd set an age for them to ride on most roads (arbitrarily, 13) by themselves. And then I'd make every effort to ensure they learn all the safety rules by then.
03-04-15, 07:03 AM
#48
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With the illustrations that are labeled "TWO-LANE ROADWAY"?
Actually riding on the sidewalk there might not be a good idea either. Using the sidewalk, walking your bike, should be indicated as an option (though, it should be fairly obvious that option is available).
Note that the illustration on page 67 is NOT part of a lesson plan.
Keep in mind that the document is instructions for teaching a class (not a guide for end users).
Anyway, it's not that hard to do when the traffic is slow after practice and experience in appropriate situations.
Last edited by njkayaker; 03-04-15 at 07:43 AM.
03-04-15, 07:46 AM
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What's so magical about asphalt? Should they not ride on a concrete bike path?
Last edited by njkayaker; 03-04-15 at 07:56 AM.
03-04-15, 07:49 AM
#50
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Because you are a cyclist, how much of an advantage do your children have over the average kid being taught this program in school? What difference does it make?