Roads were Not built for cars
#101
Randomhead
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Happy Valley, Pennsylvania
Posts: 24,335
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked 3,643 Times
in
2,485 Posts
there are certain streets around here that should be closed, but we can't because of a car centric bias. In our case, if we could just keep people from circling the block looking for parking, we'd be a lot better off, and the capacity of a few missing collector streets wouldn't be missed. There are hugely expensive parking garages every couple of blocks, but people still circle around looking for free parking. I think that if these connector streets got closed and a vibrant street scene replaced them that it would be a net benefit for everyone, residents, visitors, and business owners. We periodically close some of these streets and nothing bad happens. One of them is closed every friday, the highest traffic day here, and everyone adapts. Of course, the vast majority of traffic here is on foot, but nobody counts pedestrians. Cars are by far the most intrusive traffic, but if there were as many passengers in vehicles as there are pedestrians, the traffic snarl would be intractable.
#102
genec
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Posts: 27,079
Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
Mentioned: 86 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13658 Post(s)
Liked 4,531 Times
in
3,157 Posts
For those with poor cognitive skills, I do not believe "roads are for cars", please don't transfer your insecurities on to me. My point is simply that esoteric utopia ideologies serve no useful purpose in the real world where we are competing for limited space and resources.
#103
20+mph Commuter
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: New Orleans, LA USA
Posts: 7,490
Bikes: Surly LHT, Surly Lowside, a folding bike, and a beater.
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1422 Post(s)
Liked 314 Times
in
209 Posts
I have extensive bike touring experience. All I ever ask is for 18 inches of smooth, clean shoulder. The same 18 inches makes country roads vastly safer for motor vehicles - giving Grandma a little room for error without her right wheels going straight into a ditch or soft ground. Those 18 inches, in rural areas for sure, does cost significantly more money. However, I think it would be reasonable to lobby for those extra inches for the safety of motorists, and the convenience of cyclists.
Unfortunately, it has become fashionable to gouge rumble strips into my precious 18 inches of shoulder in many states on the county level. This is just an anti-cycling device in my opinion and does little for added motor vehicle safety.
It's ^^THIS kind of $h!t that infuriates the cycling part of me and proves that the powers-to-pave look at roads as single use structures exclusively for trucks and cars. I am as uninterested in the history of paved roads as they are. Just make it right NOW.
Unfortunately, it has become fashionable to gouge rumble strips into my precious 18 inches of shoulder in many states on the county level. This is just an anti-cycling device in my opinion and does little for added motor vehicle safety.
It's ^^THIS kind of $h!t that infuriates the cycling part of me and proves that the powers-to-pave look at roads as single use structures exclusively for trucks and cars. I am as uninterested in the history of paved roads as they are. Just make it right NOW.
#104
Señior Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Michigan
Posts: 13,749
Bikes: Windsor Fens, Giant Seek 0 (2014, Alfine 8 + discs)
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 446 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 8 Times
in
7 Posts
I seem to recall that someone fought the county when they gouged in rumble strips because in their state the shoulder legally had to remain passable for bicycles, and the state had to stop doing it and go back in and fill in the stuff they'd already gouged out. Can't remember if that's the EXACT story, it's been a few years.
__________________
Work: the 8 hours that separates bike rides.
Work: the 8 hours that separates bike rides.
#105
20+mph Commuter
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: New Orleans, LA USA
Posts: 7,490
Bikes: Surly LHT, Surly Lowside, a folding bike, and a beater.
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1422 Post(s)
Liked 314 Times
in
209 Posts
I seem to recall that someone fought the county when they gouged in rumble strips because in their state the shoulder legally had to remain passable for bicycles, and the state had to stop doing it and go back in and fill in the stuff they'd already gouged out. Can't remember if that's the EXACT story, it's been a few years.
You made my day. I'll make sure to put that state on my itinerary next tour if we can figure out which one. That is encouraging tho. I remember cycling through Kentucky where they rumble-stripped the far right edge of some county roads with NO shoulders. So the rumble strips pushed me 24 inches into the narrow lane of travel. 8 years later I biked the same road and no rumble strips! So apparently Kentucky has some sympathy in one county.
#106
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Chicago Western 'burbs
Posts: 1,065
Bikes: 1993 NOS Mt Shasta Tempest, Motobecane Fantom Cross CX, Dahon Speed D7, Dahon Vector P8, Bullitt Superfly
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Exactly... so the "esoteric utopia ideologies" that promote suburbs with two cars in the garage and only one person to a motor vehicle, should be downplayed, while the "ideologies" that emphasize efficient resource and space use should be promoted... thus dense neighborhoods with pedestrian and cycling access should be highly promoted while the highly inefficient single passenger motor vehicle should be criticized and discouraged.
#107
Been Around Awhile
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Posts: 29,942
Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked 1,511 Times
in
1,027 Posts
#108
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Kent Wa.
Posts: 5,332
Bikes: 2005 Gazelle Golfo, 1935 Raleigh Sport, 1970 Robin Hood sport, 1974 Schwinn Continental, 1984 Ross MTB/porteur, 2013 Flying Piegon path racer, 2014 Gazelle Toer Populair T8
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 396 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 8 Times
in
7 Posts
All modes are subsidized by non users, and no user group funds their mode, so what?
#109
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Kent Wa.
Posts: 5,332
Bikes: 2005 Gazelle Golfo, 1935 Raleigh Sport, 1970 Robin Hood sport, 1974 Schwinn Continental, 1984 Ross MTB/porteur, 2013 Flying Piegon path racer, 2014 Gazelle Toer Populair T8
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 396 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 8 Times
in
7 Posts
Exactly... so the "esoteric utopia ideologies" that promote suburbs with two cars in the garage and only one person to a motor vehicle, should be downplayed, while the "ideologies" that emphasize efficient resource and space use should be promoted... thus dense neighborhoods with pedestrian and cycling access should be highly promoted while the highly inefficient single passenger motor vehicle should be criticized and discouraged.
#110
Randomhead
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Happy Valley, Pennsylvania
Posts: 24,335
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked 3,643 Times
in
2,485 Posts
HAHAHAHahahahahahah!
You made my day. I'll make sure to put that state on my itinerary next tour if we can figure out which one. That is encouraging tho. I remember cycling through Kentucky where they rumble-stripped the far right edge of some county roads with NO shoulders. So the rumble strips pushed me 24 inches into the narrow lane of travel. 8 years later I biked the same road and no rumble strips! So apparently Kentucky has some sympathy in one county.
You made my day. I'll make sure to put that state on my itinerary next tour if we can figure out which one. That is encouraging tho. I remember cycling through Kentucky where they rumble-stripped the far right edge of some county roads with NO shoulders. So the rumble strips pushed me 24 inches into the narrow lane of travel. 8 years later I biked the same road and no rumble strips! So apparently Kentucky has some sympathy in one county.
they did that here, repaved many miles of shoulders when it was pointed out that they had ruined many miles of bikeable roads, including PA bike route G
one of the big wins by our local advocacy group, now called Centrebike
#111
Just a person on bike
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 2,140
Bikes: 2015 Trek 1.1, 2021 Specialized Roubaix, 2022 Tern HSD S+
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 132 Post(s)
Liked 86 Times
in
56 Posts
Efficient resource and space utilization isn't just about feeling superior. It is in the best interest of the society. So is promoting safety and respect for all road users.
__________________
The value of your life doesn't change based on the way you travel. - Dawn Schellenberg (SDOT)
The value of your life doesn't change based on the way you travel. - Dawn Schellenberg (SDOT)
#112
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Kent Wa.
Posts: 5,332
Bikes: 2005 Gazelle Golfo, 1935 Raleigh Sport, 1970 Robin Hood sport, 1974 Schwinn Continental, 1984 Ross MTB/porteur, 2013 Flying Piegon path racer, 2014 Gazelle Toer Populair T8
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 396 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 8 Times
in
7 Posts
#113
Just a person on bike
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 2,140
Bikes: 2015 Trek 1.1, 2021 Specialized Roubaix, 2022 Tern HSD S+
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 132 Post(s)
Liked 86 Times
in
56 Posts
How so? Promoting cycling as a solution in Social Engineering can be quite feasible. Look at the growing amount of bike-friendly infrastructure in Seattle.
__________________
The value of your life doesn't change based on the way you travel. - Dawn Schellenberg (SDOT)
The value of your life doesn't change based on the way you travel. - Dawn Schellenberg (SDOT)
#114
genec
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Posts: 27,079
Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
Mentioned: 86 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13658 Post(s)
Liked 4,531 Times
in
3,157 Posts
Hey you're the one that pointed out the "the real world where we are competing for limited space and resources..."
#115
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Chicago Western 'burbs
Posts: 1,065
Bikes: 1993 NOS Mt Shasta Tempest, Motobecane Fantom Cross CX, Dahon Speed D7, Dahon Vector P8, Bullitt Superfly
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
#116
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Kent Wa.
Posts: 5,332
Bikes: 2005 Gazelle Golfo, 1935 Raleigh Sport, 1970 Robin Hood sport, 1974 Schwinn Continental, 1984 Ross MTB/porteur, 2013 Flying Piegon path racer, 2014 Gazelle Toer Populair T8
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 396 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 8 Times
in
7 Posts
I see now that for a few here cycling advocacy is nothing more than a front to promote their unrelated agendas, which explains the desire to cloud issues with deceptions that don't pertain to education, enforcement, safety, and infrastructure.
#117
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Chicago Western 'burbs
Posts: 1,065
Bikes: 1993 NOS Mt Shasta Tempest, Motobecane Fantom Cross CX, Dahon Speed D7, Dahon Vector P8, Bullitt Superfly
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
kickstart, I'm very happy to see you have finally confessed. As we all know the first step to overcoming your problems is to admit you have one. We're all very proud, son.
#118
Senior Member
Thanks for the history lesson for the 1000th time.
Now let's get back to not talking about modern modern sprawl cities that bear no resemblance to cities that were around at the turn of the 20th century.
Now to be constructive - let's have someone who is knowledgeable about the subject (perhaps a city planner? I know there are few who troll this forum), start a post about how to fund the redesign of city centers and sprawl empires without pissing off the car driving plebes while taking the needs of the cycling community into consideration. A good start would be road diets that don't piss off arterial facing business and how to build light rail programs while also making room for bike lanes... Not lessons about how the horse and buggy won the American dream and therefore cars should give us more room.
Now let's get back to not talking about modern modern sprawl cities that bear no resemblance to cities that were around at the turn of the 20th century.
Now to be constructive - let's have someone who is knowledgeable about the subject (perhaps a city planner? I know there are few who troll this forum), start a post about how to fund the redesign of city centers and sprawl empires without pissing off the car driving plebes while taking the needs of the cycling community into consideration. A good start would be road diets that don't piss off arterial facing business and how to build light rail programs while also making room for bike lanes... Not lessons about how the horse and buggy won the American dream and therefore cars should give us more room.
Last edited by cellery; 03-24-15 at 02:59 PM.
#119
Just a person on bike
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 2,140
Bikes: 2015 Trek 1.1, 2021 Specialized Roubaix, 2022 Tern HSD S+
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 132 Post(s)
Liked 86 Times
in
56 Posts
What do you see us trying to promote that doesn't pertain to education, enforcement, safety and infrastructure? I don't see any. Greenways, protected bike lanes, lower speed limits and strict enforcement for residential streets, "road diets", etc... They are all important parts of safe cycling.
__________________
The value of your life doesn't change based on the way you travel. - Dawn Schellenberg (SDOT)
The value of your life doesn't change based on the way you travel. - Dawn Schellenberg (SDOT)
#120
Senior Member
Ya just figured this out? I gave up on most cycle advocates in the mid 70's and not much has changed.
#121
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Kent Wa.
Posts: 5,332
Bikes: 2005 Gazelle Golfo, 1935 Raleigh Sport, 1970 Robin Hood sport, 1974 Schwinn Continental, 1984 Ross MTB/porteur, 2013 Flying Piegon path racer, 2014 Gazelle Toer Populair T8
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 396 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 8 Times
in
7 Posts
What do you see us trying to promote that doesn't pertain to education, enforcement, safety and infrastructure? I don't see any. Greenways, protected bike lanes, lower speed limits and strict enforcement for residential streets, "road diets", etc... They are all important parts of safe cycling.
#122
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Kent Wa.
Posts: 5,332
Bikes: 2005 Gazelle Golfo, 1935 Raleigh Sport, 1970 Robin Hood sport, 1974 Schwinn Continental, 1984 Ross MTB/porteur, 2013 Flying Piegon path racer, 2014 Gazelle Toer Populair T8
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 396 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 8 Times
in
7 Posts
I guess I'm just an optimist as what I've seen here in Seattle is very positive and constructive. I think most people are basically OK, cycling advocates included. Too bad there are a few rotten apples here who enjoy being a source of disharmony.
Last edited by kickstart; 03-24-15 at 03:55 PM.
#124
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Kent Wa.
Posts: 5,332
Bikes: 2005 Gazelle Golfo, 1935 Raleigh Sport, 1970 Robin Hood sport, 1974 Schwinn Continental, 1984 Ross MTB/porteur, 2013 Flying Piegon path racer, 2014 Gazelle Toer Populair T8
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 396 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 8 Times
in
7 Posts
Are you saying they're under funded in proportion to their need and usage, or how you believe they should be funded? All modes need good roads including active and public, so how is a fair division of spending quantified?
#125
Been Around Awhile
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Posts: 29,942
Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked 1,511 Times
in
1,027 Posts
Maybe spare_wheel thinks that 30% of the population gets no benefit from the streets, roads, bridges and tunnels and all the associated infrastructure of the highway network. Presumably all their wants and needs are provided by alternative modes that do not use or need the street and highway network.