Training & Nutrition - Eat to Live

Somehow we got on this topic on the Road Cycling board and thought a more extensive disussion might be appropriate on this board.

Ever since high school I struggled with my weight. After I graduated from law school I was about 185lbs. Over the next 8 years I gained 3-5lbs a year until about 2.5 years ago I got weighed for new life insurance and I was 212lbs (I am a bit over 5'9"). I did exercise a few times a week and thought I at healthy (rarely ate red meat, at low fat foods, etc.). Somehow I came across the book "Eat to Live" by Joel Fuhrman M.D. who is an internal medicine specialist who does a lot of weight loss treatment. I read the book in one sitting - it is actually quite facinating. There is a lot of nutrional education in the book. Over the next six weeks I lost 22lbs. In the first six months I lost 45lbs (to 167lbs). For the past 2+ years I have stayed between 164 - 167lbs with literally no effort. What the book prescribes is not a diet, but a new way of life.

Here's the premise of the book: eat foods that are nutrient rich, meaning that they have a high content of nutrients per calorie. High nutrient foods (pretty much in order): green leafy veggies, other veggies, fruits, beans, whole grains. You can eat these in unlimited quantities. I did not/do not "diet." I do eat unlimited quantities of food. It is fantastic. Of course, i don't eat meat anymore or any dairy or snack foods or processed foods. But I feel healthier than I did when I was 20 (I am 35) and went from not fitting into my 36" pants to having my 32" jeans hang off me. My cholesterol went from 210 to 126.

My brother read Eat to Live and lost 65lbs in 5 months. My wife went from a size 12 to a size 6 in 4 months. Others that have read the book and actually eaten as Dr. Fuhrman suggests have lost similar amounts of weight. There are other long term health benefits other than weight loss that are fantastic as well (chance of many cancers, heart disease and type II diabetes are greatly reduced - my Dr. told me that if I eat as I do now for the rest of my life my chance of heart disease is about 1 in 1000 and my chance of diabetes is about zero).

Anywho, for anyone who exercises, tries to watch what they eat but can't get to the weight they want I would suggest buying Dr. Fuhrman's book and trying it for six weeks and see what happens.

Yay, sounds like a great success story. I really like Dr. Weil's Eating Well for Optimal Health, it doesn't focus on weight but rather on all-around health and healthful foods, as well as the whole wonderful process of eating. Mmm, food. :) He, too is all about nutritious, nutrient-dense foods and almost anything in moderation. He focuses on a modified Mediterranean diet as the ideal.

I have read Dr. Weil's Eating for Optimal Health. I do like it a lot. Also very educational. Great book. If you liked Dr. Weil's book you would also really like Dr. Fuhrman's book.

I also got the "Breathing" CDs by Dr. Weil. They are great. I practice his breathing techniques a few times a day and I have found them to be very useful in helping to control stress and anxiety.

Somehow we got on this topic on the Road Cycling board and thought a more extensive disussion might be appropriate on this board.

Ever since high school I struggled with my weight. After I graduated from law school I was about 185lbs. Over the next 8 years I gained 3-5lbs a year until about 2.5 years ago I got weighed for new life insurance and I was 212lbs (I am a bit over 5'9"). I did exercise a few times a week and thought I at healthy (rarely ate red meat, at low fat foods, etc.). Somehow I came across the book "Eat to Live" by Joel Fuhrman M.D. who is an internal medicine specialist who does a lot of weight loss treatment. I read the book in one sitting - it is actually quite facinating. There is a lot of nutrional education in the book. Over the next six weeks I lost 22lbs. In the first six months I lost 45lbs (to 167lbs). For the past 2+ years I have stayed between 164 - 167lbs with literally no effort. What the book prescribes is not a diet, but a new way of life.

Here's the premise of the book: eat foods that are nutrient rich, meaning that they have a high content of nutrients per calorie. High nutrient foods (pretty much in order): green leafy veggies, other veggies, fruits, beans, whole grains. You can eat these in unlimited quantities. I did not/do not "diet." I do eat unlimited quantities of food. It is fantastic. Of course, i don't eat meat anymore or any dairy or snack foods or processed foods. But I feel healthier than I did when I was 20 (I am 35) and went from not fitting into my 36" pants to having my 32" jeans hang off me. My cholesterol went from 210 to 126.

My brother read Eat to Live and lost 65lbs in 5 months. My wife went from a size 12 to a size 6 in 4 months. Others that have read the book and actually eaten as Dr. Fuhrman suggests have lost similar amounts of weight. There are other long term health benefits other than weight loss that are fantastic as well (chance of many cancers, heart disease and type II diabetes are greatly reduced - my Dr. told me that if I eat as I do now for the rest of my life my chance of heart disease is about 1 in 1000 and my chance of diabetes is about zero).

Anywho, for anyone who exercises, tries to watch what they eat but can't get to the weight they want I would suggest buying Dr. Fuhrman's book and trying it for six weeks and see what happens.
yes this is what we call a "vegan" DIET Not many people are up for this but I hope his book doesn't make it seem like eating meat or dairy is a bad thing.

The book doesn't say that you have to give up meat or dairy. It suggests that you eat meat as a condiment rather than as a main course and try to limit your meat and dairy intake to 10% of your calories or less.

I was a big meat eater. I decided to try to giving up meat and dairy and really liked how I felt after a few weeks. I don't think having meat now and then is a big deal. I do think that dairy is pretty unhealthy and that we are not really designed to digest dairy and that a lot of people I know who have given up dairy are surprised at how good they feel later.

It is true that in cultures where few of the regular caloric intake comes from meat and dairy their incidence of disease is lower. I won't go into all the statistics on these sort of things at this point.

Of course how you eat is your "diet" - was trying to make the point that its not a diet that you go on just to lose weight - its a lifestyle change.

The book doesn't say that you have to give up meat or dairy. It suggests that you eat meat as a condiment rather than as a main course and try to limit your meat and dairy intake to 10% of your calories or less.

I was a big meat eater. I decided to try to giving up meat and dairy and really liked how I felt after a few weeks. I don't think having meat now and then is a big deal. I do think that dairy is pretty unhealthy and that we are not really designed to digest dairy and that a lot of people I know who have given up dairy are surprised at how good they feel later.

It is true that in cultures where few of the regular caloric intake comes from meat and dairy their incidence of disease is lower. I won't go into all the statistics on these sort of things at this point.

Of course how you eat is your "diet" - was trying to make the point that its not a diet that you go on just to lose weight - its a lifestyle change.
no no, I wasn't saying that what you eat is your diet. What you explained as your diet is known as a vegan diet. But it doesn't matter. When I started to try and lose weight my red meat intake way waaaaaay down. But I still ate and still eat to this day a lot of chicken and turkey. A lot of people say that meat is only good for iron but a lot of people don't know that both meat and dairy products have good amounts of protein. And when you're losing weight, more protein will help build all those muscles you've been working out.

yes this is what we call a "vegan" DIET Not many people are up for this but I hope his book doesn't make it seem like eating meat or dairy is a bad thing.

It's very common for a doctor to suggest cutting out all meat and dairy or at least as much as possible when you have cholesterol/blood pressure problems, as well as weight issues. Of course you can eat meat/dairy and be healthy, but when there are health issues, they are almost always the first that you need to cut down on. I've never heard a doctor suggest cutting down on fruits, vegetables, and whole grains before, besides the atkins crew. That's because they are proven healthy foods.

I'm confused. He says that you can eat those nutrient rich foods (beans, whole grains, fruit...etc) in unlimited quantities. Why does he say it like this? It is possible to gain weight on these foods if you eat a LOT of them...so why does he say it like this? These foods still have calories right? Does he elaborate that there is a stopping point to eating as much as you want of these foods? Sorry...that statement confused me a little.

Cheers.

I'm confused. He says that you can eat those nutrient rich foods (beans, whole grains, fruit...etc) in unlimited quantities. Why does he say it like this? It is possible to gain weight on these foods if you eat a LOT of them...so why does he say it like this? These foods still have calories right? Does he elaborate that there is a stopping point to eating as much as you want of these foods? Sorry...that statement confused me a little.


I guess it is theoretically possible to eat fruits veggies beans and whole grains and gain weight. If you were to use oils, margarine and fatty dressings. If you prepare the foods naturally (or near naturally) it is really really hard not to lose weight even if you eat these foods in large quantities. These foods are high in fiber which take longer to digest and make you feel full longer. After a while your hunger isn't a sharp pain but instead is a dull, far away ache due to not having big blood sugar swings from eating.

Anywho, these types of foods are so bulky and generally low in calories that its really hard not to lose weight (if you are overweight) eating them (and a variety) to your heart's desire. That's what the books says and it has worked for me and the five other people I have had read the book and eat that way.

Its not the easiest way to eat. I buy most of my food at Wild Oats and Whole Foods. I go to a local produce stands on weekends and buy a ton of fruits and veggies. When I go out to eat my choices are very limited. I do enjoy eating as much now as I ever have but it took awhile to get used to and I have to plan ahead if I eat out.

My general rule on food is that I eat fruits, veggies and beans plus any other food with at least 4 grams of fiber per serving (a serving being at least 100 calories and no more than 250 calories) and contains no animal products. Eat this way and you don't have to worry about portion control. Just eat.

It's very common for a doctor to suggest cutting out all meat and dairy or at least as much as possible when you have cholesterol/blood pressure problems, as well as weight issues. Of course you can eat meat/dairy and be healthy, but when there are health issues, they are almost always the first that you need to cut down on. I've never heard a doctor suggest cutting down on fruits, vegetables, and whole grains before, besides the atkins crew. That's because they are proven healthy foods.
cutting down on and cutting out are very different. And yes I've heard of doctors telling people to stop eating fruits and whole grains. Fruits becasue of diabetes (which has a strong association with obesity) and whole grains b/c of allergies.

O.k.

But the truth is that meat and dairy are usually high on the list of foods to cut down on when you have cholesterol or blood pressure issues. To me this definitely says something about meat and dairy in general.

O.k.

But the truth is that meat and dairy are usually high on the list of foods to cut down on when you have cholesterol or blood pressure issues. To me this definitely says something about meat and dairy in general.
yeah it says like anything else we eat, don't abuse meat and dairy consumption. Cholesterol only clogs arteries with the help of saturated fat. For instance, shrimp is high in cholesterol but not high in saturated fat. This means that we don't have to worry about the cholesterol content in shrimp as much as we would in a red meat. Blood pressure abnormalities are caused by sodium levels aren't they? Anything with high levels of sodium can be said to give people blood pressure problems could it not (I'm really asking as I don't know too much about it).

But the truth is that meat and dairy are usually high on the list of foods to cut down on when you have cholesterol or blood pressure issues. To me this definitely says something about meat and dairy in general.

The slightly distorted truth, perhaps.

First: cholesterol and blood pressure issues are not one and the same and in fact are quite different, so it's inappropriate to lump them together for purposes of discussing diet.

Second: meat and dairy are not necessarily on "the list" . . . certain kinds, no doubt. I can't speak about cholesterol, but I can about high blood pressure, which I have and am being treated for. The only meats that are on my restricted list are processed meats, which are processed with added sodium (e.g. lunchmeats, smoked/dried/cured meats, etc.). Dairy-wise, it's some cheeses and buttermilk (again: added sodium).

But it's not because these are some vague bogeyman foods with "something" wrong with them, it's because they tend to have a lot of sodium specifically, which has been linked to high blood pressure. But the problem is, a lot of non-dairy and non-meat products also have a lot of sodium, and they are also on "the list". To me, that says very little about meat and dairy in general.

After reading quite a few books on nutrition and health I have become really angry at the American medical community and the USDA and the food manufacturers. Much of what we have been told about health and nutrition by our doctors, the government and from food product marketing is wrong or distorted.

A few facts: (1) If you have heart problems and you switch to the diet suggested by the American Heart Association your heart problems will slow down but still progress. If you were to switch to a vegan diet your heart disease would likely stop and would probably reverse. This has been proven by Dr. Dean Ornish at UCLA and confirmed in numerous studies, including ones at the Cleveland Clinic and Mayo Clinic. I asked my doctor about this at my last checkup. He said that these studies were correct and that changing to a vegan, whole foods diet would stop and reverse heart disease in most cases. I asked him if he recommended that to his patients with heart disease and to those with a family history of heart disease. He said he usually does not because he can't get his patients to take their Lipitor everyday let alone eat a vegan diet.

(2) If you have type II diabetes and eat as the American Diabetes Assoc recommends you will likely continue to have diabetes but you will get it under control. If you were to switch to a vegan whole foods diet your diabetes would likely be gone within six months. This conclusion has been confirmed by a study by the Physicians Committe for Responsible Medicine. My father in law, who has diabetes, called the nutrition and diet consultation hotline for the American Diabetes Assoc and asked them about this. They confirmed that if he switched to a vegan whole foods diet his diabetes would probably be cured within 6 months. They did recommend that he do this under Dr. supervision. He asked them why they didn't suggest such a diet instead of one that would not cure him - the response was that noone would do it.

(3) The current recommendation by the National Cholesterol Education Program and the American Heart Association is that total Cholesteral be kept at 200 or less and 30% or less of calories from fat. Yet 35% of patients with heart disease have total cholesterol between 150 and 200 and in a leading study the average cholesterol level of heart attack patients was 209. Yet, the diets recommended by these organizations will not reduce cholesterol below 150. Why? Because they don't think anyone would follow the recommedations that meat, dairy, most processed food, etc. be cut from the American diet.

I have a lot more facts and data I could share if anyone is interested. This is not crazy info that is being put forth by PETA people and animal lovers. Much of the data above comes from a paper published by the head of cardiology at the Cleveland Clinic. My personal doctor who is an assistant professor as Washington University Medical School (the #2 Med School in the U.S. according to US News & World Report) has confirmed all of the above.

The conclusion? The so-called "healthy" diets proposed by the USDA, the American Heart Assoc, the American Cancer Assoc the American Diabetes Assoc are too moderate and moderation is killing us. And we are fat. Two of my friends told me last night (went to a concert) that I am too skinny. That is ridiculous. I am 5'10" 166lbs. My BMI is 24 which is high end of normal. It is our perception that is skewed. We are so used to fat and overweight people now that we think it is normal. As a culture we are so used to eating unhealthly that we think eating chicken and rice and low fat pretzels and drinking milk is healthy. We are being lied to because those with information think we are weak and cannot make our own choices.

I am interested to see the revised USDA food pyramid being released today. All indications are that it will be an improvement and stress fruits and veggies and legumes more and that the role of meat, dairy and oils will be reduced. Also, the grains section will stress "whole grains." We'll see.

Reading your post, I went to the site and read samples of his book, and I'm going to try it myself; I'm picking up the book tomorrow. Thanks for your detailed and informative posts! I'm not overweight, or have any particular health problems, but all those studies,well, it just makes sense to pay attention to it!

Also, I see what's happening to friends and family around me. One sister on the low carb Atkins diet has just had her 3rd surgery for thyroid cancer. My other sister is overweight, and has vertigo and chest pains. My niece suffers from asthma, eczema and allergies. My brother has hives, insomnia, bad eating habits and gets winded walking in the neighborhood. Friends are overweight and are so unhappy about it and complaining about it. In fact, from being on this forum, I actually looked around at my collegues, and usually I don't think about their size, but was really shocked at how truly heavy so many were! And now, unfortunately (or not, I'm not sure) I'm noticing how large people are. I just grew used to it, and it didn't seem unusual or noticable before.

Anyway, I'm on my second day of eating greens and no bread/pasta/dairy. Not easy, but I do feel 'cleaner' if that makes sense. Thank goodness I have lots of ripe tomatos, eggplants and peppers in my garden!

Nutrient dense foods are healthy? --- Absolutely!


Green vegetables and fruit are the highest nutrient foods? -- Now that part is just wishful thinking!

Organic animal fats and organ meats are THE most nutrient dense foods out there.

See http://www.westonaprice.org/basicnutrition/index.html

It's very important to consume fat, extra virgin olive oil if you like with your vegetables in order to maximise their nutrient content. http://www.westonaprice.org/knowyourfats/index.html lots of good articles here and see the one called Digestion and Absorption of Food.

Buying organic produce is also very important. This doesn't get mentioned enough. Factory farmed vegetables just don't have enough nutrients in them any more.

Here's a general article on vegetarianism, http://www.mercola.com/2002/feb/2/vegetarian.htm

Ahh and the other thing is that Vegans seem to jump on the cholesterol bandwagon because it suits there point of view but you haven't read ANY evidence that proves cholesterol is harmful. Find some for us if you like but let me give you a tip. It doesn't exist. See, http://www.westonaprice.org/moderndiseases/benefits_cholest.html

Regards, Anthony

Thanks for the info jennings780. I had once heard about this book from someone else and was interested in getting it, but somehnow forgot about it. Thank you for remindind me....I picked it up yesterday and will start reading it ASAP.

I broke down and bought a used book off amazon tonight.

I guess my main question would be I really don't need to lose many pounds. Will this book still be benificial?

I am 32 an 5'9" @ 165 pounds. maybe a bit flabby, but I should be well toned in a couple months of riding. I would imagine I would stay around 160 lbs but it would be nice to go back to a 30-31" waist instead of this 32"

ohh and to have extra energy to burn would be really great.

I don't know.....this just seems like such a dreary diet to me. As if it weren't bad enough having to give up meat and dairy (and let's face it, 10% is basically giving it up), you are discouraged from using oils or dressings to jazz up the greens and beans?? I don't think I could survive giving up all the "fun" things...I'd get pretty sick of beans after awhile. What's the point of living a long healthy life if you're dying of boredom?

Don't get me wrong, I think it's great that you've found this diet...and no doubt it IS the healthiest way to eat, it just doesn't sound like anything I could stick to for longer than a week!

Well, you kind of adjust to eating it, and it gets to be really yummy! I hardly EVER ate salads and greens, and now I look forward to it. Part of it is that I can eat as much as I want, and there are ways to dress it up. Add cubes of eggplant and mint, sauted Portabella mushroom, a dollup of hummus, and I'm collecting different vinagers and mustards. Also, I got ground almond butter (like peanut butter), mixed with a tasty vinager makes a great dressing, and a substantial one. Honestly, the aisles of sweets and packaged pastries and the like don't even seem like real food to me anymore, and I've only been doing this a couple of weeks. And I've lost weight! I kind hit a plateau of 120 pounds (I'm 5'1") and couldn't lose that last 5-10 pounds around my middle, and in just two weeks, I've lost 5-6 pounds! Awesome, it's been a long time since I saw 114#! The idea is that you eventually go down to your 'ideal weight' and maintain.

I'm not super strict. I've had cheats in the last two weeks; a bite of chicken, rice, a bit of ice cream, heck, a whole lunch of Chinese food when I got together with my family yesterday! But overall, at home, I eat the Eat to Live guidelines, and I still lost and feel better. My goal isn't primarily weight loss, after all the above. I have hives that are kept in check with medication, and I'm hoping with a cleaner system, it'll resolve itself.

Dr. Furhman says to give it just 6 weeks of your life to try it. Actually, not try it, but DO it, and see how it works for you. How you feel, if you want to continue or not. In the long scope of your life, what's 6 weeks? :-)

I guess my main question would be I really don't need to lose many pounds. Will this book still be benificial?

From what little I've read so far (mainly just introduction to explain the concept), he says its a good way to eat for everybody.....it's not a book about weight loss. It's not a "diet" to help you lose weight. It's just about the good and healthy way to eat and if you are overweight that, in and of itself, promotes the weight loss. If you are not overweight, it's still very helpful as its a healthy way to eat.

I don't know.....this just seems like such a dreary diet to me. As if it weren't bad enough having to give up meat and dairy (and let's face it, 10% is basically giving it up), you are discouraged from using oils or dressings to jazz up the greens and beans?? I don't think I could survive giving up all the "fun" things...I'd get pretty sick of beans after awhile. What's the point of living a long healthy life if you're dying of boredom?

Don't get me wrong, I think it's great that you've found this diet...and no doubt it IS the healthiest way to eat, it just doesn't sound like anything I could stick to for longer than a week!
Over time you will find that your tastes will change.
I look forward to eating as much now as I ever have. What you think is good tasting food will change.
Case in point: I was at a pretty nice Italian restaurant in NYC this past week. I ordered a vegetarian pasta dish (whole wheat penne, baby spinach and tomatoes). The waitress said "we have received complaints that this dish is not very flavorful, you may want to order something else." I went ahead and ordered it. I found it to be fantastic and very flavorful. I now am used to the taste of veggies and other foods without a lot of sauces or condiments. I love the taste of fruits and veggies in their unaltered forms. Another example: on the same trip I ordered a salad with dressing on the side, but they brought it tossed with dressing (balsamic vinagarette). We were in a hurry so I ate it anyway. It wasn't swimming in dressing - it was just a normal amount of dressing for most people. I hated it. Way too much dressing. The dressing totally overwhelmed the salad. I use almost no dressing now.

If you try the eat to live way to eat you will change what you view as good food.

I don't know.....this just seems like such a dreary diet to me. As if it weren't bad enough having to give up meat and dairy (and let's face it, 10% is basically giving it up), you are discouraged from using oils or dressings to jazz up the greens and beans?? I don't think I could survive giving up all the "fun" things...I'd get pretty sick of beans after awhile. What's the point of living a long healthy life if you're dying of boredom?

Don't get me wrong, I think it's great that you've found this diet...and no doubt it IS the healthiest way to eat, it just doesn't sound like anything I could stick to for longer than a week!

I find this thread fascinating and very informative. Thanks for that. I think I have something to contribute:
For one, I am forced to eat mostly in restaurants, and not always the best ones.
For two, I am exercising very intensely for two hours/day and four to six hours on weekends. I am training for a big bike trip.
I follow this diet except adding fish and chicken and wine.
The vegetables have some seasoning which makes them tasty. Specifically I like "Outback" salmon with double vegetable and salad. Cut out the bread, cheese and cutons put in a bottle of best red wine. (I do not work at Outback!)
Lately I have added pasta to my diet because I lost too much weight!!! I went from size 40 waist to below 34.
My wife eats same diet but cannot loose. The difference is the intensity of exercise.
By the way, we have lots of energy. (Age 63)
I guess that I think the exercise is as important as the diet???

I guess that I think the exercise is as important as the diet???

It certainly is half of the equation....I lost almost 10lbs this summer and I have been eating like a fiend because of houseguests (I have to take them to all these great restaurants, out for ice cream, etc.). The only way I lost any weight was due to the cycling, I am convinced.


I absolutely ADORE fruit and veggies, so eating more of them is not really an issue for me, it's just the exclusivity of it. Whenever I go on a long bike ride, there is nothing I crave more than a steak. I only usually have red meat once a week, but it is a huge treat for me, I'm not sure if I could give it up for some post ride beans with a little eggplant and vinegar! LOL! I also love red wine too...and ice cream. I don't really care about any other types of junk food, but those three things would be REALLY hard to give up. I may just check the book anyway though.

It certainly is half of the equation....I lost almost 10lbs this summer and I have been eating like a fiend because of houseguests (I have to take them to all these great restaurants, out for ice cream, etc.). The only way I lost any weight was due to the cycling, I am convinced.
[B][U]


Yes, and we are trying to spread the word. Perhaps we do some good? :)

From what little I've read so far (mainly just introduction to explain the concept), he says its a good way to eat for everybody.....it's not a book about weight loss. It's not a "diet" to help you lose weight. It's just about the good and healthy way to eat and if you are overweight that, in and of itself, promotes the weight loss. If you are not overweight, it's still very helpful as its a healthy way to eat.


Cool thank you! my email said it was shipped today :D

Question for you long time "Eat To Live"ers.....have any of you joined Dr. Fuhrman's website ($34.95 for 1st 6 weeks, then $7.95 per month thereafter)?

I was just curious if anybody had joined and whether they thought it was worth it.

Here's a question for you fatphobic people. Explain to me the scientific evidence that proves that diets that have at least 30% or more fat or saturated fat in them are harmful for health.

I'll help you out here and let you know that it doesn't exist but if anyone wants to challenge this then by all means provide some evidence. Traditional wisdom is that fat is a very important and essential part of your diet.

Here's an interesting article from the Weston A Price Foundation, http://www.westonaprice.org/knowyourfats/lowfatcapitalism.html

One of the things it's saying is that the popularity of low fat diets amongst the rich is based on them perceiving fat consumption as the sin of glutony. It's a way of convincing themselves and trying to convince others that even though we are consuming and wasting rescources at such an obscene rate that even those who wrote the bible couldn't even imagine it that were not actualy commiting the sin of glutony because of ones personal commitment to a low fat diet. Maybe one can look down their noses at the poor and their fat guzzling ways and beleive that it's perfectly justifiable that their poor because it's God's punnishment for their glutonous way's.

Regards, Anthony

Geez AnthonyG, why are you trolling this thread? You seem to post the one site as 'proof' over and over, and basically, speaking for myself, I find eating this way beneficial to me, as far as blood results, feeling energetic instead of lethargic, and losing fat that I don't need climbing hills. Go start your own thread! :mad:

Here's a question for you fatphobic people. Explain to me the scientific evidence that proves that diets that have at least 30% or more fat or saturated fat in them are harmful for health.

I'll help you out here and let you know that it doesn't exist but if anyone wants to challenge this then by all means provide some evidence. Traditional wisdom is that fat is a very important and essential part of your diet.

Regards, Anthony



Take it elsewhere troll!

There is nothing troll like in my behaviour. If you wish to ignore the evidence then that's fine. I'm just concerned that traditional way's need to be stood up for and that some of the things that get quoted as having scientific backing need to be challenged. Someone might get the false impression that some of the dietry advice given here is backed by any reasearch watsoever. Ignore me if you will but I'm just expressing another point of view that people can check for themselves if they wish.

Regards, Anthony

There is nothing troll like in my behaviour. If you wish to ignore the evidence then that's fine. I'm just concerned that traditional way's need to be stood up for and that some of the things that get quoted as having scientific backing need to be challenged. Someone might get the false impression that some of the dietry advice given here is backed by any reasearch watsoever. Ignore me if you will but I'm just expressing another point of view that people can check for themselves if they wish.

Regards, Anthony

There are alot of diets. They are (mostly) all based on some amount of research, so to say that the diets discussed in this thread are not backed by research is way way off base. They are not backed by the research you support. Thats great, do what works for you.

Of course you are free to say here is what I do, and it works for me. But the manner in which you are saying it comes across as some sort of crusade to excorsize the demons of diets you do not agree with.

There is nothing troll like in my behaviour. If you wish to ignore the evidence then that's fine. I'm just concerned that traditional way's need to be stood up for and that some of the things that get quoted as having scientific backing need to be challenged. Someone might get the false impression that some of the dietry advice given here is backed by any reasearch watsoever. Ignore me if you will but I'm just expressing another point of view that people can check for themselves if they wish.

Regards, Anthony
If you don't like many of these diets or plans listed then it is your choice. But if you want to present your own info about something, then start a thread about it. Don't taint our thread by dropping it like a bomb with "obvious" intent just to piss us off (which IS troll-like behaviour).

Additionally, everyone else in this thread can tell that those websites were created by the reincarnate of "Dr." Fatkins. The websites are nothing other than some quack advice for people who want to bash vegetarians/vegans.

Sounds like an interesting read. I have never read any of his books.

I am a formerly morbidly obese person and I lost 230# several years ago. I have kept it off for the most part, but I have ended up at around 230# (hence I leveled off at ~half of my former weight). I have finally started cycling as a way of getting rid of the rest. I have been a vegan for 4 years, but despite that I have not been the healthiest of eaters.

I eat a lot of whole foods, but eat more than my share of fattening vegan foods. Have been obese, the fat cells never go away, fat eaten can turn into fat stored very easily if one does not burn it quickly through activity. Knowing how my body works, the cycling combined with limiting my fat intake should help me drop off pretty rapidly.

Another strike against me is that I am an overeater in that I will eat past the point of being "satisfied" (which got me obese in the first place). I am working on that part, but eating can be as much as an addiction as drugs or alcohol (i'm not kidding). Luckily, I have pretty good willpower when I am willing to enforce it.

A good recommendation for vegan reading if anyone is interested is Diet for a New America, Diet for a New World, and Food Revolution (http://www.foodrevolution.org/).

This sounds like a basically healthy eating plan, and I'm not one to bash anybody's diet. (Well, maybe AnthonyG's!) But I see a couple possible drawbacks to "Eat for Life."

First, it's difficult (not impossible) to get adequate calcium and B12 from a vegan diet. Do you take supplements or what? Second, it is hard to metabolize the fat soluble vitamins (A,D,E,K) without a little fat in the diet. Also, a couple essential fatty acids can't be made by the body, so they have to come from the diet. Do you get at least a little fat?

The biggest drawback that I see was mentioned by a couple posters. It sounds like a very dreary diet, indeed. Often, people are gung-ho about these extreme diets when they first start them, but I would be interested to see if they are still following them after a year or two. This is the reason that the Amer. Heart Assoc. and the Amer. Diabetic Assoc. do not recommend Dean Ornissh's vegan diet. They know it works; they also know that few Americans would be willing to try it, let alone stick with it.

Two or three early posters mentioned "Eating Well for Optimum Health" by Andrew Weil, MD. This is a book and an eating plan that I follow and recommend. Actually, he does not prescribe a certain diet, but leaves a lot of room for different needs, different cultures and different preferences. Weil loves food and it shows in the way he writes about it. He does mention a few (not many!) specific foods that should be either avoided or encouraged. Weil does a good job of explaining how our bodies use different nutrients, and leaves you with enough knowledge to make informed decisions about your own nutrition. He is a pioneer in the field of integrative medicine who is widely respected by traditional medical doctors as well as alternative or holistic practicioners. This truly is an eating plan that you can follow for life!

"Eating Well For Optimum Health" by Andrew Weil, MD (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0060959584/qid=1129080337/sr=2-3/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_3/103-7874348-4395818?v=glance&s=books)

First, it's difficult (not impossible) to get adequate calcium and B12 from a vegan diet.

B-12 yes we vegans pretty much have to supplement.

Calcium however is not difficult to get through the vegaan diet.

This thread motivated me to attempt the six week "trial period". I started back in August, and stuck to the diet without the slightest deviation. My results were much like jennings', as mentioned in post 1. Although it wasn't my goal, I dropped about 20 lbs. More importantly to me, my cholesterol dropped from 221 to 158. Most suprisingly, my taste in food changed dramatically -- I was very skeptical about this occurring. Anyhow, my experience has been extremely positive. If you're a curious skeptic like me, give it a try.

I've been on it for a few months now. I dropped about 20 pounds before it, and another 30 or so afterward. The thing to realize, for the most part, is that "Eat To Live" is not a "diet" its how to change your eating habits, permanently.

I don't follow it religiously (e.g. I still occasional eat some things it recommends against), but have been following it about 85%. More importantly is that I have been modifying my eating habits and will only buy fruits and healthy type snacks now, etc....

Bottom line - it works.

Oh....and like lectrman said....calcium is quite readily accessible from vegetables. B-12 is something that needs to be supplemented though.

After reading quite a few books on nutrition and health I have become really angry at the American medical community and the USDA and the food manufacturers. Much of what we have been told about health and nutrition by our doctors, the government and from food product marketing is wrong or distorted.



I have a lot more facts and data I could share if anyone is interested. This is not crazy info that is being put forth by PETA people and animal lovers. Much of the data above comes from a paper published by the head of cardiology at the Cleveland Clinic. My personal doctor who is an assistant professor as Washington University Medical School (the #2 Med School in the U.S. according to US News & World Report) has confirmed all of the above.

The conclusion? The so-called "healthy" diets proposed by the USDA, the American Heart Assoc, the American Cancer Assoc the American Diabetes Assoc are too moderate and moderation is killing us. And we are fat. Two of my friends told me last night (went to a concert) that I am too skinny. That is ridiculous. I am 5'10" 166lbs. My BMI is 24 which is high end of normal. It is our perception that is skewed. We are so used to fat and overweight people now that we think it is normal. As a culture we are so used to eating unhealthly that we think eating chicken and rice and low fat pretzels and drinking milk is healthy. We are being lied to because those with information think we are weak and cannot make our own choices.



jennings:
I am interested in what you say but not willing to spend a lot of time reading. I am too busy biking.
Please, what is wrong with my diet? Do not hold back, I am not defending my position.
Breakfast: Oatmeal and fresh fruit. Always except on extreme biking trips.
Lunch and Dinner: Grilled Fish and Veggies. Always unless not available. Substitute grilled Chicken.
Vices: Good Red Wine and Yoghourt and more fresh fruit.

This sounds like a basically healthy eating plan, and I'm not one to bash anybody's diet. (Well, maybe AnthonyG's!) But I see a couple possible drawbacks to "Eat for Life."

First, it's difficult (not impossible) to get adequate calcium and B12 from a vegan diet. Do you take supplements or what? Second, it is hard to metabolize the fat soluble vitamins (A,D,E,K) without a little fat in the diet. Also, a couple essential fatty acids can't be made by the body, so they have to come from the diet. Do you get at least a little fat?

The biggest drawback that I see was mentioned by a couple posters. It sounds like a very dreary diet, indeed. Often, people are gung-ho about these extreme diets when they first start them, but I would be interested to see if they are still following them after a year or two. This is the reason that the Amer. Heart Assoc. and the Amer. Diabetic Assoc. do not recommend Dean Ornissh's vegan diet. They know it works; they also know that few Americans would be willing to try it, let alone stick with it.

Two or three early posters mentioned "Eating Well for Optimum Health" by Andrew Weil, MD. This is a book and an eating plan that I follow and recommend. Actually, he does not prescribe a certain diet, but leaves a lot of room for different needs, different cultures and different preferences. Weil loves food and it shows in the way he writes about it. He does mention a few (not many!) specific foods that should be either avoided or encouraged. Weil does a good job of explaining how our bodies use different nutrients, and leaves you with enough knowledge to make informed decisions about your own nutrition. He is a pioneer in the field of integrative medicine who is widely respected by traditional medical doctors as well as alternative or holistic practicioners. This truly is an eating plan that you can follow for life!

"Eating Well For Optimum Health" by Andrew Weil, MD (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0060959584/qid=1129080337/sr=2-3/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_3/103-7874348-4395818?v=glance&s=books)

I have read Dr. Weil's book and really liked it.
I personally found it more difficult to eat as Dr. Weil suggests which is to eat "healthier" and in "moderation" than Dr. Fuhrman's book which really is more black and white. I do much better with my own set of personal rules.

As to whether you can follow Eat to Live for an extended period - I have been on it for 3 years. There are a great multitude of great vegan cookbooks. My wife and I eat a variety of great foods. It does impact eating out (that is not as fun now) - but we have never been people who loved to go eat out. I honestly look forward to eating and enjoy eating as much now as I ever have. You do end up liking different things that you do before.

jennings:
I am interested in what you say but not willing to spend a lot of time reading. I am too busy biking.
Please, what is wrong with my diet? Do not hold back, I am not defending my position.
Breakfast: Oatmeal and fresh fruit. Always except on extreme biking trips.
Lunch and Dinner: Grilled Fish and Veggies. Always unless not available. Substitute grilled Chicken.
Vices: Good Red Wine and Yoghourt and more fresh fruit.
I'll give a quick shot at this.

First, do you have fish or chicken every day? If so, that's likely too much meat in the diet. ETL recommends less than 10% of calories in your eating come from meat. So I would suggest the meat only be in there a few times a week and find other alternatives to go with the veggies.

Second, yogurt (and all dairy) products aren't very good for you. Cow milk is designed for baby cows. Surely there are other things you could find to replace this if you wanted.

Thirdly, you have very little green veggies. Leafy greens are important and are some of the most nutrient rich food on the planet. It would be good to work in a nice salad with some dark green leafy type vegetables (Kale, spinach, etc..). I make salads with these all the time and use beans in the salad quite often.

Just a few suggestions....

The only piece I'm still not getting is: where does the calcium come from?

By the way, I've dropped 5 lbs after one week with no hunger and little boredom...

Congrats!

You can get a significant amount of calcium from tofu and several greens: Spinach, collard greens, kale, chicory greens, beet greens, turnip greens, watercress, etc.

I can't believe it but I think I am actually going to pick up this book after work today... I've read several "eating theory" books and this one sounds interesting. Thanks for the recommendation.

Ah, the calcium question. Over the last three years this is the most frequent question I have been asked about how I eat. As a result I have researched this topic quite a bit. My findings are summarized below:

1. Calcium is important. You do need it. How much we need, however is unclear. The dairy industry has done a great job of scaring people into thinking there is a calcium crisis in this country. There is not. Daily calcium intakes vary greatly around the world - from about 300mg/day in parts of Asia to 1300mg/day in parts of Scandinavia. As you would guess, the U.S. is pretty high up on the list. The U.S. RDA is a whopping 1000mg/day (based on a 2000 calorie diet). Curiously, countries with the highest average calcium intake tend to have higher, not lower, hip fracture rates. In the U.S. we have nearly the highest rate of low bone density and fractures and nearly the highest per capita intake of calcium. How could this be? Studies are showing the vitamin D may be more important that calcium in preventing low bone density. Additionally, weight bearing exercise is very important to retaining bone mass. In the US we have become more sedentary, which reduces the amount of weight bearing exercise and also reduces the time we spend outside and leads reduced sunshine exposure and sunshine is our major souce of vitamin D. So, notwithstanding all the "Got Milk?" ads, maintaining healthy bones is a lot more complicated than just ingesting calcium.

2. Eating animal protein causes you to excrete calcium out of your urine. Therfore, the more dairy you consume the more calcium you pee into your toilet. In America we eat a massive amount of animal protein. Maybe that's why our RDA of 1000mg of calcium is so high. The flip side of this is if you don't eat any animal protein you don't need nearly as much calcium.

3. Calcium from supplements is effective. Some vitamins and minerals are not as effective when taken as supplements vs. getting them from foods. This is not the case with calcium. Calcium Citrate supplements are high quality and will do the trick. Calcium carbonate is ok, but not as good. IF you are worried about calcium intake, just pop some calcium supplements.

4. Track your calcium intake and you'll be surprised how much you get without dairy and meat. I recently started using www.fitday.com to track my eating habits. Over the past week I have consumed at least 1200mg of calcium a day. This has come from the soy milk with my cereal and the calcium that is in most food products. Just look at a few nutrition labels on stuff you eat. Most have 5 or 10% of your RDA of calcium. Getting calcium this way really adds up.

Good reading on this topic is the Dairy Chapter in: "Eat Drink Be Healthy: The Harvard Medical School Guide to Healthy Eating" by Walter C. Willett. Much of what I have stated above is from that book.

My wife has started cooking. Holy cow. Married 11+ years and she started 4 weeks ago. SHe found the best cookbooks by Sarah Kramer:

"How it All Vegan" (read it like how it all began) and
"The Garden of Vegan" (this one is obvious).

The receipes are easy and fantastic. Healthy. Tasty.

This all sounded good - almost had me hooked, but it seems severely low-carb. Not Atkins, pushing the massive amounts of protein, but only one serving per day of bread, cereal, rice or starchy veggies? That just seems severly limiting for an active cyclist. One slice of bread/day? I was all set to sign on, but is that really right? Except for fruit, which is great, but I need those long-lasting, slowburning carbs - oatmeal, brown rice, whole-wheat pasta.

Hey, I have aquestion. Everyone has talked about Dairy milk, but what about soy is that still good. It is the only way I can drink milk. I hate the stuff from the cow.

This all sounded good - almost had me hooked, but it seems severely low-carb. Not Atkins, pushing the massive amounts of protein, but only one serving per day of bread, cereal, rice or starchy veggies? That just seems severly limiting for an active cyclist. One slice of bread/day? I was all set to sign on, but is that really right? Except for fruit, which is great, but I need those long-lasting, slowburning carbs - oatmeal, brown rice, whole-wheat pasta.
He suggests limiting bread and pasta during the first six weeks. If you are exercising a lot, just eat whole grain bread and pasta. I eat quite a bit of bread and pasta. Of course, though, this isn't low carb. Its actually about 65% carb 20% protein and 15% fat.

Hey, I have aquestion. Everyone has talked about Dairy milk, but what about soy is that still good. It is the only way I can drink milk. I hate the stuff from the cow.
Yes to soymilk. I drink about 12 oz a day.
Its high in fat so I don't drink a ton of it.

Soy silk makes a light version that isn't bad in fat, etc. Also, Soy Slender isn't bad and it comes in some interesting flavors . . .like Cappacino.

I recently read the book in a bookstore . . . inspired I am sure by this thread since I had never heard of the book and then suddenly saw it while I was browsing. Interesting. Seems healthy (as Dean Ornish and Dr. Weil . . . I like the natural guys with research on their side). One thing that stood out for me is he suggests eating 4 servings of fruit a day. It's making me much more aware of fruit.

I'm glad you mentioned that soy milk is ok. That's one thing I wasn't ready to give up, but hadn't noticed what he said about it in my relatively quick read.

Sandy