Training advice

[james57]

I am currently training for dus, have a pretty fair base (5 hrs per week) all winter with a few 2hrs sessions and will be doing some bricks shortly. My question is the following, sometimes mid-week I have the opprotunity to train 2 sessions of 45 min or 1 of 1h15 running or cycling or one of each, considering my work and family schedule. What are the pros and cons of each option.. any advice pls ??

Thks

[TriBob]

What is your current schedule? What is your long ride and long run?

All variations have there place. It depends on where you are in your training and what you need more work in.

[james57]

What is your current schedule? What is your long ride and long run?

All variations have there place. It depends on where you are in your training and what you need more work in.
current schedule varies but usually I train 6 days, long run 10 (45 min) -15 (1h10) -20 km max
long ride, I just started a few outside spins 25 km (45 min) but usually 60 km (2hrs) on the week end.

[TriBob]

You may want to do intervals with every 3 or 4 week just easy.

bike: use the whole time. Maybe 3 x 10 min with 5 min recovery
Run: 800m repeats with 30-60 second recovery. If you split use an easy spin later to flush legs

[jennings780]

Eric Harr (pro tri guy) in both of his books suggests that when in doubt "go longer less frequently rather than less distance more often."

[james57]

But then you probably can't sustain the same intensity vs two shorter sessions or have one high (short burst) and one long 10km run , can't do both ie: run and bike, unless you brick (which I already do once a while) ..

[MHR]

You may want to do intervals with every 3 or 4 week just easy.

bike: use the whole time. Maybe 3 x 10 min with 5 min recovery
Run: 800m repeats with 30-60 second recovery. If you split use an easy spin later to flush legs

ONE OF MY SECRETS TO TRAINING
I agree intervals are very key to any Running specific, Bike specific or Triathlon training in your build-up program. Yes - even for swimming. I just wanted to expand on your running example, which is a key to my marathon success.
It's called "Yasso 800's" (you may have heard of them) named after Bart Yasso from Runners World magazine. I must have done ton's of 800's with my local track team, but what's different about these 800's is how they are implemented.
I now use them in every marathon build-up - good results in my speed work is a window on the future come race day. The thing I will disagree with is "how often" These are done once/week for several weeks leading up to your key race - I do speed work 2x/week for key events such as a marathon I want to use as a PR or a BQ (Boston Qualifier). For shorter races such as a 1/2 marathon 800's are still great, for a 10K I would use 400's.

1. Do a 2-mile warm-up on a track (8-laps)
2. Start with 4 x 800 (in your first week) at a little faster than your 5k pace, with a 400 recovery after each (basically an easy jog with your total time in the 400 roughly = to your 800 time)
3. Followed by a 2-mile cool down (proper warm-up's and cool down's are key to running injury free)

** Next week when you do these add "1 additional 800", (so 5 x 800) adding one each week till you get to 10 x 800. So if you start at 4 x 800 that's 7-weeks of solid speed work. You stop speed work 14 days prior to your key race - so when I tend to design my training plan I work back from the race date. If your are training for a Triathlon use this technique in each of your sports swim, bike and run. It's not only key to building VO2 MAX, but if implemented as described you will build your endurance as well.
If you are doing everything else (hill work, middle distance, LSD, general aerobic...etc) in your build-up as you are suppose to check this out. What Bart found out in many cases is your average "800 time" when you get to "10 x" it can be a predictator of your time in a race.
It works like this; I track my 800's (or download them from my polar each week) and record the data such as my HR, best time, slowest time, and average time ...all great data to look back at. What Bart found out is the average time for 10 x 800's (ie. 3 min 8 seconds) is what your marathon time will be (ie. 3 hrs 8 min)...but then again you have the mother nature factor that can skew your actual results. I have found that it is a very close predictator. I have entered several marathons in sub 3:10 shape but mother nature (excess heat being one factor) has not allowed me to achieve my potential. But first and foremost the Yasso 800’s are an interval workout not a predicator, it just so happens the result “can” be a predicator. To many people focus too much on interval work and leave out several of the key components attempting a short cut (leaving out the lsd's or hillwork) – sorry you have to do the work, all of the work…no short cuts allowed. You just can't expect quality results without quality work.

Speed work once a week say every Tuesday is pretty normal for most marathoners, although I do mine every Tuesday and Thursday for key events as I noted above. I also is use my 800's as a spring board to do 1-mile repeats. So when I get to 8 x 800 (on Tuesday's), I start 3 x 1-mile (on Thursday's). I only recommend 2x/week speed work or the additional mile repeats for serious runners who have a few marathons under their belts.

Intervals are awesome - now that you know how - "USE IT" it will help you achieve new PR's and crush others on race day.

[james57]

Thks for the very detailled respons .. its appreciated

[audiojan]

I'm exactly in your situation. Intervals are fantastic and will help you get your pace up. I would suggest you try to add a couple of race-pace bricks to your schedule. This has helped me tremendously to get used to the pace and get the confidence to finish strong. Also, set goals with your training. Training for the sake of training has a tendency not to really lead anywhere, but if you have realistic goals, it makes it much more focused.

Enjoy the upcoming du season!

[ZackJones]

ONE OF MY SECRETS TO TRAINING

(snip)

Sheesh, I thought you were only going to tell me these things :(

Actually, it's good to see that work has let up enough for you to post :)

[MHR]

Worry not young Jeddi -
Like "Fleix the Cat", my bag of tricks has more than 100 secrets in it.
"You must unlearn what you have learned." "Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will..."
"Beware of the dark side. Anger...fear...aggression. The dark side of the Force are they. Easily they flow, quick to join you in a fight."
100 secrets should the dark side learn - never the correct order will they understand
Only a true Jeddi will the powers of the force flow for good, complete the training with MHR you must. 140.6 your destiny is, only then will a Jeddi you be.

[james57]

OK so I have started this kind of routine ..

I did one of 4 and 2 of 6 .. It really equates to 3 min intervals with 4 min rest and so one ..

My only limiting factor is that I am developping a sharp pain in my right inside ankle .. Should I worry, since it disppears the hr after. I could do 8..maybe not 10 right now ??

Thks

[MHR]

I did one of 4 and 2 of 6 .. It really equates to 3 min intervals with 4 min rest and so one
Not sure what you mean here.......You want the "speed interval" (an 800) and "the recovery" (a 400) to be pretty equal in time. Even if you could do 8, 9 or 10 out of the gate....the Yasso 800's don't work that way. Best to start with 4 x 800, adding 1 additional 800 each week until you reach 10 x 800.

[james57]

I meant I have done one session where I did 4x800 m with 400 m rec in between each, and 2 other sessions where I did 6x800 m with 400 m rec.

Doing 800 m at race speed and then 400 m recovery really equates to run 3 min. intervals with 4 min rec.

Does this sound right

[MHR]

I meant I have done one session where I did 4x800 m with 400 m rec in between each, and 2 other sessions where I did 6x800 m with 400 m rec.

Doing 800 m at race speed and then 400 m recovery really equates to run 3 min. intervals with 4 min rec.

Does this sound right

If you have raced many years you would do intervals 2-times/week, maybe Tuesday and Thursday.
Otherwise stick to once/week - If you are doing the Yasso 800's be methodical in doing 4 x 800 week #1, 5 x 800 week #2, 6 x 800 week #3, 7 x 800 week #4 etc...
If you are doing your interval sessions correct with warm-up and cool-down of 2 miles at 4x800 that's 7-miles of quality work.
I tend to run mine at 3:07 for 800 interval and 3:10 for the 400 recovery. You can also do these on a treadmill which I end up doing when I train for my January and April marathons due to unpredictable weather.

[lilscotboy]

MHR, i just tried the yasso 800's for the first time today....wow

you can really feel the difference when doing intervals, i've done them on my bike and swim before, but never the run

can't wait for next sunday now :)