sbhikes
04-20-05, 07:22 PM
Do you think handsfree cell phones are safer than the regular kind? Sometimes they want laws against using cell phones while driving unless they are hands free. But I don't think handsfree cell phones are safer. Do you?
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operator
04-20-05, 07:29 PM
No.
bennyk
04-20-05, 07:46 PM
Yes, and it's not even close.
It would not have to be much of a safety improvement to qualify as "safer."
bk
It would not have to be much of a safety improvement to qualify as "safer."
bk
blue_neon
04-20-05, 08:09 PM
Handsfree would have to be safer then holding a mobile phone while driving. Although you are still concentrating on the call, with hands free its just like talking to someone it the car. Plus you dont have to stress about holding your phone up with one hand, and trying to do everything else which is illegal. Not talking, is always safer then talking, but handsfree does make a big difference I feel.
AndrewP
04-20-05, 08:10 PM
It doesnt make any difference what type of phone you are using, because the danger is caused by what the phone does to your mind - takes attention away from driving.
blue_neon
04-20-05, 08:13 PM
Well so does talking to people in a car, takes your mind away from driving. If you think about it, holding a phone while driving adds extra concentration on holding the phone itself. With handsfree, your eyes and hands are to move freely like you would normally driving. Even though it dosn't produce 100% concentration for driving, it makes a difference, and its also Legal.
jaldridge
04-20-05, 08:14 PM
Yes, I'm sure that handsfree cellphones are safer than ones you hold. Not much safer, but marginally. I fly small planes IFR, and if properly trained, you can do a LOT and still attend to the task at hand. I think the main problem with cellphones is that the conversation is rarely related to the task of driving, so it's distracting. I think the data on this are pretty good. - Jim
blue_neon
04-20-05, 08:15 PM
Would those be Cessna's or Pipers?
sbhikes
04-20-05, 08:16 PM
It doesnt make any difference what type of phone you are using, because the danger is caused by what the phone does to your mind - takes attention away from driving.
That's what I think. I know everybody is different, but I can't talk on the phone and drive at all. I don't know how some people do it. I do know that even when talking to people who are physically present some people have to stop talking to handle difficult situations in the car. That happened today when I was going to lunch with my co-workers. Getting on the freeway was a little hairy and they guy driving had to stop talking and concentrate on what he was doing. After he got on, then he could converse.
That's what I think. I know everybody is different, but I can't talk on the phone and drive at all. I don't know how some people do it. I do know that even when talking to people who are physically present some people have to stop talking to handle difficult situations in the car. That happened today when I was going to lunch with my co-workers. Getting on the freeway was a little hairy and they guy driving had to stop talking and concentrate on what he was doing. After he got on, then he could converse.
blue_neon
04-20-05, 08:17 PM
It exactly the same as having a conversation in the car. Exept I would think that the conentration rate would be higher, because you HAVE to talk and think when your on a call, unlike when the person is right next to you, your not under 'pressure'. Still you have to admit that handsfree would make a difference.
Dutchy
04-20-05, 08:31 PM
As has been mentioned previously, talking to a passenger is not nearly as distracting as talking on a phone. A phone call requires constant talking whereas a passenger can see if the driver is busy and can pause the conversation until the driver is ready to talk.
I don't believe hands free is any safer. The user still has to dial numbers to make a call, which requires the driver to look away from the road. Even with hands-free there will always be those people who decide to SMS whilst driving and that is even more dangerous.
From memory Germany and a few other countries have banned hands-free and "normal" mobile phones completely while driving.
Down here mobiles are banned while driving. The police issue about 3000 fines per year. I think the fine is currently $315, plus a loss of 3 demerit points.
CHEERS.
Mark
I don't believe hands free is any safer. The user still has to dial numbers to make a call, which requires the driver to look away from the road. Even with hands-free there will always be those people who decide to SMS whilst driving and that is even more dangerous.
From memory Germany and a few other countries have banned hands-free and "normal" mobile phones completely while driving.
Down here mobiles are banned while driving. The police issue about 3000 fines per year. I think the fine is currently $315, plus a loss of 3 demerit points.
CHEERS.
Mark
DCCommuter
04-20-05, 08:37 PM
Totally unscientific, but I don't like handsfree. It's harder to see that a driver is using the cell phone. I like to be able to see them and avoid them.
closetbiker
04-20-05, 08:52 PM
I put down that I don't know.
Hands are occupied less, but there still is some looking and searching to turn the cell on or off as well as dialing. Those buttons are so small, you can't help but look away from the road to search the keyboard to make the cell do what you want it to.
Hands are occupied less, but there still is some looking and searching to turn the cell on or off as well as dialing. Those buttons are so small, you can't help but look away from the road to search the keyboard to make the cell do what you want it to.
khuon
04-20-05, 09:07 PM
Yes, I'm sure that handsfree cellphones are safer than ones you hold. Not much safer, but marginally. I fly small planes IFR, and if properly trained, you can do a LOT and still attend to the task at hand. I think the main problem with cellphones is that the conversation is rarely related to the task of driving, so it's distracting. I think the data on this are pretty good. - Jim
In aviation, we're also taught how to prioritise and multitask. I think this is something that has been rarely addressed in driver training. I mean do they teach even the basics of scanning techniques? The rule of thumb is, "aviate, navigate, communicate... in that order." The problem I have with all these laws that ban things is that they don't rightly address the problem. First I think they should enforce more strictly and set stiffer penalties for inattentive driving whether it be because of talking on a mobile phone or eating a hamburger. Then they should also teach drivers how to handle situational risk assessment, multitasking and prioritisation. These are all very fundamental basics pilots go through.
I'm reposting this from something I posted in a past thread (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=14309)...
Yep... it's another case of context mismatch. Also in many other situations of two-way radio communications, there are specific protocols of speech that are followed. These are designed to reduce confusion and maximise efficiency. "... four november delta... squawk VFR... radar services terminated... frequency change approved..." During a typical phone conversation, the line of discussion can weave around wildly forcing the user(s) to devote even more brain processing cycles to maintain coherent thought... cycles that are stolen from other tasks.
In aviation, we're also taught how to prioritise and multitask. I think this is something that has been rarely addressed in driver training. I mean do they teach even the basics of scanning techniques? The rule of thumb is, "aviate, navigate, communicate... in that order." The problem I have with all these laws that ban things is that they don't rightly address the problem. First I think they should enforce more strictly and set stiffer penalties for inattentive driving whether it be because of talking on a mobile phone or eating a hamburger. Then they should also teach drivers how to handle situational risk assessment, multitasking and prioritisation. These are all very fundamental basics pilots go through.
I'm reposting this from something I posted in a past thread (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=14309)...
Yep... it's another case of context mismatch. Also in many other situations of two-way radio communications, there are specific protocols of speech that are followed. These are designed to reduce confusion and maximise efficiency. "... four november delta... squawk VFR... radar services terminated... frequency change approved..." During a typical phone conversation, the line of discussion can weave around wildly forcing the user(s) to devote even more brain processing cycles to maintain coherent thought... cycles that are stolen from other tasks.
fallstorm
04-20-05, 09:46 PM
It depends on the driver's level of training and experience. For example, I believe the use of cell phones in any way should be banned for typical drivers. However, police officers and other officials are trained to do multiple things at once -- drive safely, watch out for offenders, watch for vehicles or people on the watch list, talk on the radio, etc. Often effective police do two or more of these things at once.
Is hands-free safer than hands-on? No, I think it's more dangerous. I think it gives the driver a false sense of security. It's the conversation, not the act of holding a phone, that's the danger here.
Is hands-free safer than hands-on? No, I think it's more dangerous. I think it gives the driver a false sense of security. It's the conversation, not the act of holding a phone, that's the danger here.
twahl
04-20-05, 10:06 PM
There have been much-publicized studies saying that hands free doesn't make you safe. True. But safer? Of course. I hate to be nasty to those that think otherwise, but it's a no-brainer. Not having to hold a phone to your head HAS to be more safe than holding a phone to your head. Is it perfect? Of course not. Is it as safe as not talking on the phone at all? Of course not. Is it as dangerous as talking to someone in the passenger seat? I think it's safer.
Personally if I have to take a call while driving, I prefer to put the phone on speakerphone option and clip it to my visor. Having said all that, I'll admit to having talked to my wife riding the bike using the earpiece. Did about 20 miles that way one night...late, no traffic, she was out of town so it was the only way I'd get to talk to her.
Personally if I have to take a call while driving, I prefer to put the phone on speakerphone option and clip it to my visor. Having said all that, I'll admit to having talked to my wife riding the bike using the earpiece. Did about 20 miles that way one night...late, no traffic, she was out of town so it was the only way I'd get to talk to her.
catatonic
04-20-05, 10:43 PM
no, all that happens is the person often ends up fidgeting with the cord, or still holding the stupid thing....plus it's far more complicated to shove a tiny plastic object in your ear and make it stay, then answer the phone, and put it back in your pocket, than it is to just answer it and get it over with.
Really, IMO handsfree sets were made explictitly to cater to the "sharper image" shoppers...who often just go for the latest cool gadget regardless of practicality. There's nothing wrong with being a gadget freak...but keep in mind that gadget doesn't always equal practical :)
Really, IMO handsfree sets were made explictitly to cater to the "sharper image" shoppers...who often just go for the latest cool gadget regardless of practicality. There's nothing wrong with being a gadget freak...but keep in mind that gadget doesn't always equal practical :)
khuon
04-20-05, 10:47 PM
IMHO, I do not consider an earpiece to be "handsfree". I'm using a speakerphone system in my vehicle. My phone has Bluetooth capability and just pairs with it. I can also voice-dial, voice-answer and voice-reject via the speakerphone.
forum*rider
04-20-05, 10:52 PM
I say no.
Handsfree just means that the driver is going to crash into you with two hands on the wheel instead of one.
Handsfree just means that the driver is going to crash into you with two hands on the wheel instead of one.
blue_neon
04-20-05, 11:47 PM
1. Concentration IS improved. No matter how you look at it, it is SAFER not to be holding a phone that it is to be holding it. You now have two hands to use, not one.
2. It does depend on the driver, some are more skilled then others and can do multiple tasks.
3. I agree that you would concentrate more when you are speaking to a passenger, as opposed to talking on a phone where you HAVE to speak and concentrate. Although Hands-Free helps improve conentration levals, so you dont have to worry about holding the phone, or fumbling around with it.
3. To answer a call you press the 'answer button'. You talk and then you end the call with another press of the button. Thats not life threating. It just the same as pressing buttons on the radio.
Even though talking on the phone is still distracting, you have to admit that Hands Free features make it easier and safer to use then holding a phone.
2. It does depend on the driver, some are more skilled then others and can do multiple tasks.
3. I agree that you would concentrate more when you are speaking to a passenger, as opposed to talking on a phone where you HAVE to speak and concentrate. Although Hands-Free helps improve conentration levals, so you dont have to worry about holding the phone, or fumbling around with it.
3. To answer a call you press the 'answer button'. You talk and then you end the call with another press of the button. Thats not life threating. It just the same as pressing buttons on the radio.
Even though talking on the phone is still distracting, you have to admit that Hands Free features make it easier and safer to use then holding a phone.
nathank
04-21-05, 02:46 AM
From memory Germany and a few other countries have banned hands-free and "normal" mobile phones completely while driving.
Mark
nope. cell phones without hands-free are banned, but hands-free is "a-ok".
QUITE often on the autobahn a car passes me at 200km/h and then later i pass him and he later comes zooming by... "oh, he's on the hands-free phone" - unable to pay attention enough to maintain speed. (note: typically 40-60-something mercedes drivers)
i agree with most here that hands-free is definitely much safer than normal cell phone. beyond that it depends on the user, where the typical user is NOT able to safely to both. as to the comparision with an in-car conversation, the difference is the passenger sees that the drivers has to deal with driving and waits (or reminds the driver) until the situation where concentration is required is over... on a business call or whatever, i imagine the salesman NOT telling the customer every 30 seconds "hold one i gotta concentrate on driving"...
IF people would THINK and pay attention, hands-free cell-phones can be ok. but in practice they're still pretty unsafe as many people concentrate on talking over driving or even worse with the intention of "distracting them from a boring drive in traffic"
Mark
nope. cell phones without hands-free are banned, but hands-free is "a-ok".
QUITE often on the autobahn a car passes me at 200km/h and then later i pass him and he later comes zooming by... "oh, he's on the hands-free phone" - unable to pay attention enough to maintain speed. (note: typically 40-60-something mercedes drivers)
i agree with most here that hands-free is definitely much safer than normal cell phone. beyond that it depends on the user, where the typical user is NOT able to safely to both. as to the comparision with an in-car conversation, the difference is the passenger sees that the drivers has to deal with driving and waits (or reminds the driver) until the situation where concentration is required is over... on a business call or whatever, i imagine the salesman NOT telling the customer every 30 seconds "hold one i gotta concentrate on driving"...
IF people would THINK and pay attention, hands-free cell-phones can be ok. but in practice they're still pretty unsafe as many people concentrate on talking over driving or even worse with the intention of "distracting them from a boring drive in traffic"
lilHinault
04-21-05, 03:45 AM
Handsfree phones are weird enough when people use them just walking, you see these people apparently suffering badly from full-blown schiziphrenia, ranting and raving and talking loudly to no one, then you realize their on their handsfree phone.
blue_neon
04-21-05, 03:53 AM
Handsfree phones are weird enough when people use them just walking, you see these people apparently suffering badly from full-blown schiziphrenia, ranting and raving and talking loudly to no one, then you realize their on their handsfree phone.
Yes! I saw that the other day at a shopping center. I was waiting out side a shop and saw this women sitting by herself on a bench. It appeared she was talking to herself, as she kept changing her facial expressions, and moving her head around. She also kept looking right at the ground and I suspected that 80% of people would have though she was mentally ill. Although it turned out she was on hands-free, when I saw a black cord that was nicely disguisted by her hair and clothes going into her ear. Certainly hands free's were designed when your hands wern't 'free', so probably not for use when you were too lazy to pick up a phone.
Yes! I saw that the other day at a shopping center. I was waiting out side a shop and saw this women sitting by herself on a bench. It appeared she was talking to herself, as she kept changing her facial expressions, and moving her head around. She also kept looking right at the ground and I suspected that 80% of people would have though she was mentally ill. Although it turned out she was on hands-free, when I saw a black cord that was nicely disguisted by her hair and clothes going into her ear. Certainly hands free's were designed when your hands wern't 'free', so probably not for use when you were too lazy to pick up a phone.
khuon
04-21-05, 04:07 AM
It's all about training. Communicating while in the process of operating a vehicle or a piece of machinery is a skill that needs to be developed. Most people talking on the phone do not have this skill. Do you think the guy left-seat in the cockpit of the 777 is gesturing wildly and yelling into his mic as he's making for the numbers on short final? Do you think the guy on SEAL team 5 engaged in a CQB action isn't constantly aware of what's going on around him while at the same time talking to his teammates so they coordinate their fields of fire? What makes these guys different? They've received proper training. The subject of the conversation is contextually related to the situation at hand. Even in general aviation, you're taught how to act on the radio. You're taught how to form your sentences and phrase things in a manner which can be easily deciphered during a high-stress situation. Information is tokenised and related in a format that provides for proper context-flow. There is even built-in verbal error correction procedures to minimise one party mishearing or misunderstanding the other.
Now normal day-to-day conversation isn't going to be as structured or formal. However, nothing in life is always structured or formal and this goes for driving too. In general, people are bad at context switching and need to be trained to handle it. If it's not the mobile phone that can cause a person to context switch then it's the baby in the backseat or something on the radio. Driver training is really poor in preparing the driver for dealing with a multitasked environment. I posted on this a few months ago in a previous thread (http://www.bikeforums.net/showpost.php?p=886390&postcount=19).
It's called context switching and many of us are very bad at it. It can be overcome with training however. Pilots undergo this sort of training... emergency response folks do too. Perhaps rather than enacting laws to ban this, that and the other thing, we should revise our training to take into account the fact that one needs to be able to maintain situational awareness as well as context switch between several tasks in today's modern driving environment. Rather than spend all of our efforts attempting to eliminate distractions (an exercise in futility as far as I'm concerned), I think some amount of effort should be made in teaching drivers how to better deal with them. Now I'm not advocating that everyone go out and gab on their phones in the middle of traffic but I am advocating that everyone know how to handle the situation. Whether to answer or make a call while driving should be a matter or priority management and it should be the case that either decision should leave the driver with a fair margin of safety.
Now normal day-to-day conversation isn't going to be as structured or formal. However, nothing in life is always structured or formal and this goes for driving too. In general, people are bad at context switching and need to be trained to handle it. If it's not the mobile phone that can cause a person to context switch then it's the baby in the backseat or something on the radio. Driver training is really poor in preparing the driver for dealing with a multitasked environment. I posted on this a few months ago in a previous thread (http://www.bikeforums.net/showpost.php?p=886390&postcount=19).
It's called context switching and many of us are very bad at it. It can be overcome with training however. Pilots undergo this sort of training... emergency response folks do too. Perhaps rather than enacting laws to ban this, that and the other thing, we should revise our training to take into account the fact that one needs to be able to maintain situational awareness as well as context switch between several tasks in today's modern driving environment. Rather than spend all of our efforts attempting to eliminate distractions (an exercise in futility as far as I'm concerned), I think some amount of effort should be made in teaching drivers how to better deal with them. Now I'm not advocating that everyone go out and gab on their phones in the middle of traffic but I am advocating that everyone know how to handle the situation. Whether to answer or make a call while driving should be a matter or priority management and it should be the case that either decision should leave the driver with a fair margin of safety.
pseudobrit
04-21-05, 06:43 AM
I have a handsfree set and I lost it for awhile. I can say with absolute certainty that I am a crap driver when I'm holding a cell phone. The difference is extreme. I am fine with the handsfree kit.
I don't gesticulate when on the phone; I do when speaking to someone directly.
I think the order of concentration for me is: no music > music > handsfree > passenger > cellphone in hand
That's me, though. I see plenty of dip****s that shouldn't be allowed on the road without their hands glued to the steering wheel and an AWACS above giving them warnings.
I don't gesticulate when on the phone; I do when speaking to someone directly.
I think the order of concentration for me is: no music > music > handsfree > passenger > cellphone in hand
That's me, though. I see plenty of dip****s that shouldn't be allowed on the road without their hands glued to the steering wheel and an AWACS above giving them warnings.
John Ridley
04-21-05, 08:51 AM
Yes, and jumping off a 50 foot cliff is safer than jumping off a 60 foot cliff.
John Ridley
04-21-05, 08:52 AM
Well, I'm reconsidering. Maybe they're not safer. A hands-free cell phone might give someone the impression that it's at all a good idea to use it while driving, whereas with a normal phone they might have pulled over like they should anyway. So in the wrong hands it might be more dangerous.
twahl
04-21-05, 10:03 AM
That's me, though. I see plenty of dip****s that shouldn't be allowed on the road without their hands glued to the steering wheel and an AWACS above giving them warnings.
You know that's really the heart of the problem. Whether I'm on a bike or driving, I see something most every day that leads me to believe that some people just don't have a high enough IQ to be allowed to drive. Maybe half of them are using a phone. Last time I came close to getting creamed on the bike, there appeared to be no phone involved, lady got in her car, pulled out of her spot, and proceeded to leave a business parking lot with no intention of stopping (big legal stop sign) before entering the access road. The biggest thing I see daily is people driving 15 MPH under the speed limit while jabbering away.
Some people just shouldn't drive. Some people shouldn't have any distraction in any form, they can drive fine if they can concentrate fully. Some people can't carry on a conversation and drive well. Some can drive fine while carrying on a conversation.
I did some research last night. The much quoted study saying that hands free was no safer than hand held was done in 1997. That's 8 year old data folks. Since then a lot of studies have been done that contradict that data, including some that did in fact indicate that talking to a passenger in a car was more dangerous than a hands free phone. The question was "Is hands free safer?" and I think the answer really is pretty obviously yes. Not more safe than driving with no distractions, but certainly safer than driving with one hand holding the phone to your ear. I personally don't make it a habit, I don't call anyone when driving, but I do take calls, as I said before I prefer to use the speakerphone feature. I tend to use the earpiece when I doing things around the house so I can carry on a conversation while still doing the dishes.
You know that's really the heart of the problem. Whether I'm on a bike or driving, I see something most every day that leads me to believe that some people just don't have a high enough IQ to be allowed to drive. Maybe half of them are using a phone. Last time I came close to getting creamed on the bike, there appeared to be no phone involved, lady got in her car, pulled out of her spot, and proceeded to leave a business parking lot with no intention of stopping (big legal stop sign) before entering the access road. The biggest thing I see daily is people driving 15 MPH under the speed limit while jabbering away.
Some people just shouldn't drive. Some people shouldn't have any distraction in any form, they can drive fine if they can concentrate fully. Some people can't carry on a conversation and drive well. Some can drive fine while carrying on a conversation.
I did some research last night. The much quoted study saying that hands free was no safer than hand held was done in 1997. That's 8 year old data folks. Since then a lot of studies have been done that contradict that data, including some that did in fact indicate that talking to a passenger in a car was more dangerous than a hands free phone. The question was "Is hands free safer?" and I think the answer really is pretty obviously yes. Not more safe than driving with no distractions, but certainly safer than driving with one hand holding the phone to your ear. I personally don't make it a habit, I don't call anyone when driving, but I do take calls, as I said before I prefer to use the speakerphone feature. I tend to use the earpiece when I doing things around the house so I can carry on a conversation while still doing the dishes.
pseudobrit
04-21-05, 10:15 AM
Since then a lot of studies have been done that ... indicate that talking to a passenger in a car was more dangerous than a hands free phone.
This is exactly my finding for my particular driving abilities and habits. I would not be surprised if my abilities reflect the general public's abilities.
The worst thing I can do is put the phone to my ear. It creates a problem where the constant darting of eyes and swiveling of the head utilised unconsciously in everyday good driving is physically restricted because you've got your hand and arm glued to the side of your head.
That was my personal problem with it, and in my observations of those who have almost collided with me, it's been their problem too. They don't check their blind spots, they make turns too wide because they can't do it one-handed fast enough, and they lack peripheral vision.
I personally didn't suffer from extreme sloppiness, but many times I've been behind a cell-phone driver who could easily be mistaken for a drunken driver; they're that erratic.
This is exactly my finding for my particular driving abilities and habits. I would not be surprised if my abilities reflect the general public's abilities.
The worst thing I can do is put the phone to my ear. It creates a problem where the constant darting of eyes and swiveling of the head utilised unconsciously in everyday good driving is physically restricted because you've got your hand and arm glued to the side of your head.
That was my personal problem with it, and in my observations of those who have almost collided with me, it's been their problem too. They don't check their blind spots, they make turns too wide because they can't do it one-handed fast enough, and they lack peripheral vision.
I personally didn't suffer from extreme sloppiness, but many times I've been behind a cell-phone driver who could easily be mistaken for a drunken driver; they're that erratic.
Karldar
04-21-05, 10:16 AM
Condensed to soundbite size:
Safer? Yes.
Safe? No.
Safer? Yes.
Safe? No.
noisebeam
04-21-05, 10:31 AM
That is a good point - they may encourage someone to use the phone while driving.
Maybe the use of cell phone while driving shouldn't be outright banned, but intead the penalties for being involved in an at fault accident while on a cell phone should be the same as for being in an accident while driving intoxicated.
Al
Maybe the use of cell phone while driving shouldn't be outright banned, but intead the penalties for being involved in an at fault accident while on a cell phone should be the same as for being in an accident while driving intoxicated.
Al
genec
04-21-05, 11:28 AM
That's what I think. I know everybody is different, but I can't talk on the phone and drive at all. I don't know how some people do it. I do know that even when talking to people who are physically present some people have to stop talking to handle difficult situations in the car. That happened today when I was going to lunch with my co-workers. Getting on the freeway was a little hairy and they guy driving had to stop talking and concentrate on what he was doing. After he got on, then he could converse.
While I think hands free is safer, I also believe that there are some folks that should not even be talking while driving. Same as chewing gum and walking... some folks cannot multitask at all.
Along with hands free, voice dialing is also important... anything that causes a driver to remove their eyes from the road is dangerous.
Years ago drivers did not have air conditioning and the ultra quiet cars they have today... then, the driver was well connected to their environment. Today with closed cars, sound systems, AC, cell phones, etc, the only connection a driver has to the road is visual. That link must remain fully "connected."
While I think hands free is safer, I also believe that there are some folks that should not even be talking while driving. Same as chewing gum and walking... some folks cannot multitask at all.
Along with hands free, voice dialing is also important... anything that causes a driver to remove their eyes from the road is dangerous.
Years ago drivers did not have air conditioning and the ultra quiet cars they have today... then, the driver was well connected to their environment. Today with closed cars, sound systems, AC, cell phones, etc, the only connection a driver has to the road is visual. That link must remain fully "connected."
noisebeam
04-21-05, 12:12 PM
Anyone ever notice this:
You are with a small group of friends, walking, sitting, whatever. One takes a cell call hands free or not. They become obvious or at least much less aware to what the rest of your group is saying/doing and what is going on around them.
But in that same group everyone remains aware of what is going on, with conversation, even sub conversations and stays aware of their surroundings.
Al
You are with a small group of friends, walking, sitting, whatever. One takes a cell call hands free or not. They become obvious or at least much less aware to what the rest of your group is saying/doing and what is going on around them.
But in that same group everyone remains aware of what is going on, with conversation, even sub conversations and stays aware of their surroundings.
Al
SpokesInMyPoop
04-21-05, 12:17 PM
I gave it a "maybe". Cell phones are a distraction, but at least with the hands-free set you can have both hands on the wheel. Overall, I don't think it offers less distraction, leading me to believe that you're just as likely to crash w/ a handsfree... perhaps your reaction time would improve.
Either way, I'm not much "for" driving and talking on cell phones. STOP IT, ALL OF YOU!!!
Either way, I'm not much "for" driving and talking on cell phones. STOP IT, ALL OF YOU!!!
hi565
04-21-05, 12:21 PM
I think it is, Very much more. You dont have to hold anything and you have 2 hands free to drive with. No more driving with your knees. My dad is the master of that. Ha has a new bluetooth phone, so basically when hes in his car he can talk hands free (Acura 2004 TL) He also has the bluetooth headset. I would never let him come on a ride while on a call even with the blue tooth headset.
genec
04-21-05, 12:44 PM
I work in the Cell industry... and the first thing I do when getting a call or calling someone, is ask if they are driving.
If so, I tell them to call me back when they have stopped. They know who I am and have my number, I am encouraging them to find a safe place to make the call, rather than from a moving car.
I do believe "hands free" are safer, but I more believe that no distractions is safest.
Perhaps we should all try this and encourage it as good cell phone etiquette.
BTW, That is one of biggest pet peeves with cell phones... folks that do not know how and when to use them. A bit of common courtesy can go a long way. (Of course I feel that way about a lot of motorists too... :) )
If so, I tell them to call me back when they have stopped. They know who I am and have my number, I am encouraging them to find a safe place to make the call, rather than from a moving car.
I do believe "hands free" are safer, but I more believe that no distractions is safest.
Perhaps we should all try this and encourage it as good cell phone etiquette.
BTW, That is one of biggest pet peeves with cell phones... folks that do not know how and when to use them. A bit of common courtesy can go a long way. (Of course I feel that way about a lot of motorists too... :) )
Metro
04-21-05, 02:40 PM
Yes and no.
If you holdl the phone to your ear, you lose your peripheral vision and your concentration, so that's a yes.
No if you use a hands-free set with voice dial features. You don't have to touch the phone, let alone look at it. This assumes, of couse, that you are focused on driving while talking, or pull over to the side of the road. Unfortunately not everyone focuses on the road.
(You don't know how may drivers focus on simply staying between the lines and carryon aminated conversations).
Yes, and no. It depends on the driver.
If you holdl the phone to your ear, you lose your peripheral vision and your concentration, so that's a yes.
No if you use a hands-free set with voice dial features. You don't have to touch the phone, let alone look at it. This assumes, of couse, that you are focused on driving while talking, or pull over to the side of the road. Unfortunately not everyone focuses on the road.
(You don't know how may drivers focus on simply staying between the lines and carryon aminated conversations).
Yes, and no. It depends on the driver.
noisebeam
04-21-05, 02:45 PM
(You don't know how may drivers focus on simply staying between the lines and carryon aminated conversations).
Has anyone else noticed that people on cell phones (hand free or not) tend to tailgate, that is lock on the car in front of them and follow.
Al
Has anyone else noticed that people on cell phones (hand free or not) tend to tailgate, that is lock on the car in front of them and follow.
Al
Metro
04-21-05, 02:56 PM
That is one of my pet peeves. Please, Don't follow me so closely if you are not paying attention to the WHOLE road. I was in a near accident while driving once when I passed a motorist who signaled and stopped to make a left turn at an intersection. I looked in my rear view mirror and eased into the right lane to pass him safely. Just as I did so, a red Mustang who was obscured by the turning car suddenly appeared ahead of me in my lane. The only way he could have gotten there so quickly is if he floored it without bothering to slow or stop and look first. I had to slam on the brakes, burning rubber to avoid him. He just gave me "that look" and sped on. If a "dunder head" were behind me, tailgating while on the phone, he would not have notice either of us. I would have been sandwiched between the two of them in a heap of scrap metal.
khuon
04-21-05, 03:01 PM
Has anyone else noticed that people on cell phones (hand free or not) tend to tailgate, that is lock on the car in front of them and follow.
Target fixation due to improper scan technique or inability to maintain proper scan. Pilots are often cautioned against this. When I'm driving, my head is on a swival and I essentially treat the roads as if I'm in a hostile combat environment. The same goes true for when I'm cycling. People like to talk about how they get into some sort of zen mode when they're cycling. I actually don't. "See and Avoid" is the rule I live by when flying, driving and cycling.
Studies have shown that many drivers who converse on a mobile phone while driving do not have the skills to adequately devote enough of their mental tasking for adequate scanning. Some drivers lack this skill regardless of whether they're on a phone or not. But the phone is not the only source of this kind of distraction. Someone thinking about a fight with their boyfriend can also fall into this situation. Lack of concentration can result from many things. There are a lot of distractions out there and I think that the only real solution is to train people to properly deal with them. And if they fail to be capable of dealing with them then remove their driving priviledges. I disagree in part with the statement that a handsfree kit gives people a green light to talk on the phone while driving. Yes, it does but that's not the real problem. The real problem is that some people are incapable of multitasking in an environment that is prone to require it. If that is the case then they should not be driving in the first place.
Target fixation due to improper scan technique or inability to maintain proper scan. Pilots are often cautioned against this. When I'm driving, my head is on a swival and I essentially treat the roads as if I'm in a hostile combat environment. The same goes true for when I'm cycling. People like to talk about how they get into some sort of zen mode when they're cycling. I actually don't. "See and Avoid" is the rule I live by when flying, driving and cycling.
Studies have shown that many drivers who converse on a mobile phone while driving do not have the skills to adequately devote enough of their mental tasking for adequate scanning. Some drivers lack this skill regardless of whether they're on a phone or not. But the phone is not the only source of this kind of distraction. Someone thinking about a fight with their boyfriend can also fall into this situation. Lack of concentration can result from many things. There are a lot of distractions out there and I think that the only real solution is to train people to properly deal with them. And if they fail to be capable of dealing with them then remove their driving priviledges. I disagree in part with the statement that a handsfree kit gives people a green light to talk on the phone while driving. Yes, it does but that's not the real problem. The real problem is that some people are incapable of multitasking in an environment that is prone to require it. If that is the case then they should not be driving in the first place.
Metro
04-21-05, 03:11 PM
You can train 'em,......or BEAT 'EM INTO SUBMISSION!!!!!
khuon
04-21-05, 03:48 PM
You can train 'em,......or BEAT 'EM INTO SUBMISSION!!!!!
The beatings will continue until morale improves.
I feel that banning mobile phones while driving is simply an attempt to pluck at the low-dangling fruit. I think it actually lowers the bar for drivers making it more tolerable to promote and retain bad driver skills.
The beatings will continue until morale improves.
I feel that banning mobile phones while driving is simply an attempt to pluck at the low-dangling fruit. I think it actually lowers the bar for drivers making it more tolerable to promote and retain bad driver skills.
Guest
04-21-05, 05:00 PM
As long as people remain distracted, it won't be safer. Cell phones need to be outlawed unless you need to call 911. We were fine before cell phones, and it wouldn't kill people to take the time to get to work without incident and WITHOUT the cell phone distractions.
Koffee
Koffee
Nicodemus
04-22-05, 05:26 AM
They're both unsafe...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/343464.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/343464.stm
bnet1
04-22-05, 05:56 AM
When I'm with the Mrs. travelling cross country she is the driver. I need her concentration to be 100% on the road and what is going on around her. I am the navigator. It is my job to watch for landmarks, fuel stops, route changes, etc. Cell phones are great for: roadside emergencies, reporting drunk/bad drivers, reporting accidents and summoning aid, a quick call to HQ to see if anything important has developed. She does not use the phone, I do. Cell phones are a distraction. Even as a team we do not make calls if at all possible when navigating dense traffic or going through interchanges in cities. Too much attention is required to safely merge with traffic and then negotiate the exit. I think for a good number of people cell phones are to much of a distraction when driving, period, hands free or not. Another thing I hate is going somewhere (restraunt, social activity, etc) and have someone's phone ring, then have them gabbing away full tilt conducting the latest business deal or talking about the latest gossip. Things like this make my sometimes solitary bike rides really nice. No distractions. Just me, the bike, and the road. Don't get me wrong here, cell phones are good, it is just a lot of people seem to use them excessively and cannot safely multitask when doing so.
Metro
04-22-05, 07:39 AM
What do you mean I can't multi-task and pay attent....
(excuse me I have to answer the phone. Hello. Yes this is he. Look jerk @##$ @##$$.
Thats right! GOOD BYE!......
tion at the same time? I don't have a problem using the cell phone while driving.
;)
(excuse me I have to answer the phone. Hello. Yes this is he. Look jerk @##$ @##$$.
Thats right! GOOD BYE!......
tion at the same time? I don't have a problem using the cell phone while driving.
;)
Karldar
04-22-05, 07:53 AM
I read a very good editorial in Autoweek a while back(can't remember which issue) concerning accidents while driving. Seems the NHTSA wanted to try to reduce the number of auto accidents(in the U.S., of course). Many suggestions were made--Congress, the auto industry, and many others were involved in the discussion which revolved around new laws and better safety equipment on vehicles. Sadly, as the editor pointed out, no one dared suggest more stringent requirements for licensing drivers. Evidently, no politician or company can even mention making it harder to obtain a license without endangering their careers or bottom line. Heaven forbid we make the roads safer. Instead, let's pass laws restricting cell phone use because, obviously, it's the phones that are the problem, not the driver who can't multi-task. I mean, there were only 1.46 deaths/100 million miles* traveled in the U.S. last year, right? Argh!
* Stat from memory, not the source(which I can't remember--NHTSA, maybe?) Down from the year before(due to increased number of cars on road, not less deaths overall).
* Stat from memory, not the source(which I can't remember--NHTSA, maybe?) Down from the year before(due to increased number of cars on road, not less deaths overall).
slvoid
04-22-05, 10:03 PM
It's kind of like saying, would you rather be shot with a teflon coated .22 or a hollowed out black talon. They'll both hurt, one just hurts less.
Hands free is safer than hands er.. hands-not-free.
But either way, it's more distracting than talking to someone in the car which in turn is more distracting than not talking at all.
PBS had a show where carnegie mellon university did a study by having a driver wear a pair of glasses that had a camera pointed at the eye and another one pointed forward. The inward looking camera tracked the eye movement and triangulated where the eye was looking and projected that vector onto the outward looking image.
They found that a) men would make quick subconscious glances at cleavage as much as 250-300 milliseconds before they would even look at her to talk to her and
b) that when a person was on a headset, they were concentrating on creating an environment in their mind to hold the conversation with the caller. Their eyes remained almost dead on straight ahead on the road while a driver who wasn't on the phone would constantly scan back and forth to their peripheral vision to check on their environment.
So my opinion, based on the results of the study, would be that hands free is slightly safer than holding a phone and driving at the same time but still light years away from safe. Someone deep into a conversation on hands free will most likely only see the car in front of them and totally miss the biker on the side of the road, the car about to pull out of the drive way, the basketball rolling down the sidewalk towards the road, and the kid on the skateboard coming off the curb.
Hands free is safer than hands er.. hands-not-free.
But either way, it's more distracting than talking to someone in the car which in turn is more distracting than not talking at all.
PBS had a show where carnegie mellon university did a study by having a driver wear a pair of glasses that had a camera pointed at the eye and another one pointed forward. The inward looking camera tracked the eye movement and triangulated where the eye was looking and projected that vector onto the outward looking image.
They found that a) men would make quick subconscious glances at cleavage as much as 250-300 milliseconds before they would even look at her to talk to her and
b) that when a person was on a headset, they were concentrating on creating an environment in their mind to hold the conversation with the caller. Their eyes remained almost dead on straight ahead on the road while a driver who wasn't on the phone would constantly scan back and forth to their peripheral vision to check on their environment.
So my opinion, based on the results of the study, would be that hands free is slightly safer than holding a phone and driving at the same time but still light years away from safe. Someone deep into a conversation on hands free will most likely only see the car in front of them and totally miss the biker on the side of the road, the car about to pull out of the drive way, the basketball rolling down the sidewalk towards the road, and the kid on the skateboard coming off the curb.
hi565
04-24-05, 10:11 AM
As long as people remain distracted, it won't be safer. Cell phones need to be outlawed unless you need to call 911. We were fine before cell phones, and it wouldn't kill people to take the time to get to work without incident and WITHOUT the cell phone distractions.
Koffee
We are Slaves of cell phones, some, alot cant live with out a cell phone. Some kids at my school claim they NEED a cell phone. I have a cell phone, I didnt want it. My dad got a deal on it from verizon, got the phone for free. I hardly use the thing, Its eithor in my jersey pocket or my back pack. Its an emergeny only phone pretty much. Times wont change. We will always now be slaves of cell phones. Its called 21st century industry :rolleyes:
Koffee
We are Slaves of cell phones, some, alot cant live with out a cell phone. Some kids at my school claim they NEED a cell phone. I have a cell phone, I didnt want it. My dad got a deal on it from verizon, got the phone for free. I hardly use the thing, Its eithor in my jersey pocket or my back pack. Its an emergeny only phone pretty much. Times wont change. We will always now be slaves of cell phones. Its called 21st century industry :rolleyes:
sbhikes
04-24-05, 06:17 PM
Thanks for all the responses.
So many threads here and in the commuter forum complain about drivers with cell phones, and I got curious whether cyclists are bothered by all cell phones or just the handheld kind. I am quite surprised how many feel hands free is safe enough not to be too concerned. I did not expect that.
So many threads here and in the commuter forum complain about drivers with cell phones, and I got curious whether cyclists are bothered by all cell phones or just the handheld kind. I am quite surprised how many feel hands free is safe enough not to be too concerned. I did not expect that.
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