General Cycling Discussion - My Fahgettaboudit chain was cut in 30 seconds

No, the bike wasn't stolen. I just needed to take a link out of the chain to make it a little smaller so I could wear it around my waist. I wandered around my school looking for a proper tool and was eventually led to a nice old lady with an oxyacetylene torch (6000 degrees Fahrenheit). I was suprised at how quick she got through it although she did have sparks flying and had to wear a welder's mask.
This makes me wonder if my lock is vulnerable around town to a torch, has anyone had a thief use a torch on their lock or heard of it happening? I'm probably safe around here though because my first bike didn't get stolen for 2 or 3 months when using just a cable, that's before I knew they were so easy to cut, I was misled at the bike shop.

Yeah I see guys hauling oxyacetylene tanks around every day. Don't be ridiculous

I'm just paranoid all the time, I do feel safer with my chain though.

Like I said I don't see people walking down the street with a welding helmet and a torch. Chances are THEY'D get jacked up before they got to my bike

I'm just paranoid all the time, I do feel safer with my chain though.

30 seconds is just about what the average bike theif would spend getting your bike. And if it takes 30 seconds with an oxymapp torch, I wouldn't worry about the standard thief with a hacksaw taking your bike. OTOH, if you park it in a back alley somewhere and the guy has a portable nitrous torch (I saw one in my mcmaster catalog that's almost pocket sized), then chances are, the chain's gone.

Guess the name of the lock is pretty accurate...except when they said Fahgettaboudit, they meant your bike. :D

The NYPD use a circular saw type thing to hack those chains off in probably about the same amount of time. The saw shoots sparks out like 10 feet and is very loud. These methods aren't very stealthy and require lugging around some heavy gear. On the other hand if the lock was completely unbreakable then all it takes is some jack*** to come along and fill up the lock with something preventing your key from working. If the lock was completely invulnerable you would have no way to get your bike back...

Every few years or so I read about some gang of thieves who find a way to burrow into a bank vault. If a motivated thief has the time and technology, he's going to get your bike. There is no 100% solution regardless of what the Kryptonite people might say.

I think that the reality is even worse than that. Make it too hard to steal your nice bike and a frustrated bike thief will simply bash your top tube with his bolt cutter. If he can't get it he'll make sure that you can't enjoy using it either.

Have a nice day.

Locks are just to keep honest people honest. There is nothing theft-proof.

Oxy-Fuel, Battery-powered grinders, bolt-cutters, etc... all are common in use. And the reality is nobody is probably going to say jack to someone on the street working on a lock with whatever tools. "Oh this, I lost my key."

I never leave I bike that I am not willing to lose and always try to leave them in plain sight.

-Z

My cordless grinder can do it in under 30 seconds...

If it makes you feel any better I can pick a home door lock in less than ten seconds with a pick set I made from an old lawnmower recoil spring.

If you use a torch on my bike, you can have it, since it would probably be ruined anyway!

I don't think the lock is abnormally compromised.

Koffee

My cordless grinder can do it in under 30 seconds...

You must have a MUCH better power tools. than the editors of "Cycling Plus". They attacked that lock using a portable, battery operated power tool that is typical of what crooks on the street are actually using to steal bikes. The CP editors needed eight minutes with that power tool to open the Fahgettaboudit lock.

Have you actually opened the 2005 version of the Fahgettaboudit with your cordless grinder?

My corded Dewalt 4 1/2" angle grinder with a cutting blade on it would do it in under thirty seconds*

* This is a guess, it will go through 5/16 hardened chain as fast as you want, truly like a hot knife through butter. Of course it is corded so you need to park your bike near an outlet.

The NYPD use a circular saw type thing to hack those chains off in probably about the same amount of time. ... These methods aren't very stealthy and require lugging around some heavy gear.

Last year while walking I came upon several young guys (two on the street, one driver), working out of an unmarked panel van, in the end stage of removing a bike that had been locked at the front sidewalk of a condo building. They left the scene rather quickly. This occurred during bright daylight, in a residential/retail mixed neighborhood (Diversey/Clark/Broadway triangle). Using heavy equipment would make the whole operation more efficient.

It didn't appear to be a repo outfit.

My corded Dewalt 4 1/2" angle grinder with a cutting blade on it would do it in under thirty seconds*

* This is a guess, it will go through 5/16 hardened chain as fast as you want, truly like a hot knife through butter. Of course it is corded so you need to park your bike near an outlet.

"Cutting times" vary widely depending on the quality of the steel involved. Kryptonite uses very high quality steel for its New York lock and its Fahgettaboudit chain, compared with the "industry average".

When "Cycling Plus" used a portable, battery powered cutting disk (the type used by actual street crooks...not the "heavy duty" equipment used for dismantling bridges) on some 13mm shackles, they were able to cut one in 22 seconds. Another took 76 seconds. Another took 149 seconds.

The Kryptonite New York Lock, with a 16mm shackle took over five minutes per shackle. It was necessary to cut two shackles to open the lock, which took over ten minutes total. No crook is going to stand on a busy street corner with a noisy power tool, working for ten minutes on a Kryptonite, when the next bike on the rack can be opened in 22 seconds, or less. (One U-lock failed in five seconds...that is the bike a "smart" crook is going to target.)

My angle grinder is very not stealthy. It throws sparks about ten feet. When I use it I go ahead and get the fire extenguisher off the hook. Mine is pretty tough and for cut work I use a blade intended for that kind of stuff. A lot of guys use the grinding heads(to cut) and they are slow, but these blades are for cutting pipe and sheet steel. It is really amazing how quick they go through stuff.

My corded Dewalt 4 1/2" angle grinder with a cutting blade on it would do it in under thirty seconds*

* This is a guess, it will go through 5/16 hardened chain as fast as you want, truly like a hot knife through butter. Of course it is corded so you need to park your bike near an outlet.

Heh, don't park your bike next to a street lamp in NYC...

If it makes you feel any better I can pick a home door lock in less than ten seconds with a pick set I made from an old lawnmower recoil spring.

With a good swift kick, I can get into the same home in less than a second. :)
BTW, you can get a real good vibrator if you rip the head off one of those battery powered toothbrushes.

What about one of these with a carbide jaw?
http://news.thomasnet.com/images/large/2004/12/458398.jpg

BTW, you can get a real good vibrator if you rip the head off one of those battery powered toothbrushes.

Leave your personal life out of this.

What is that? A bionic cigar snipper?

When I did my Emt training we played around with "the jaws of life" a little. And then when I was working at a equipment shop, I serviced a set and really put them to work. They might cut a shackle but I think it would stall them out, hard to say.

If a thief wants it, the thief gets it. If you think they are not brazen enough to work on a lock for ten minutes you are mistaken. Scenario: A van loaded with electrician tools. Parked on a lunch time (100's of people sitting at tables outside) crowded downtown Pittsburgh street. Return 20 minutes later to find van empty, while alarm was going off. Moral of the story: Most people just don't care, as long as it doesn't effect them. Guess what? Nobody saw anything either, out of convenience.

I saw a bike lock a few weeks ago that looked like a giant pair of hand-cuffs: strong and heavy looking and...freakin' expensive: $170.00 for the smaller and $210.00 Cdn for the larger. I don't recall the name, but they looked like they could deter even the most ardent of thieves. You'd need an SUV following you to carry it though.

Leave your personal life out of this.

For the pins in the lock... :p

I saw a bike lock a few weeks ago that looked like a giant pair of hand-cuffs: strong and heavy looking and...freakin' expensive: $170.00 for the smaller and $210.00 Cdn for the larger. I don't recall the name, but they looked like they could deter even the most ardent of thieves. You'd need an SUV following you to carry it though.

Thats the Masterlock streetcuff. Makes it look like a cop locked your bike.
http://www.totalbike.com/shop/images/products/B0001UPRLQ.jpg

So.... I dunno what people are tethering their bikes to but most bike racks I see are just steel tubing welded into a bike rack shape and its usually not all that thick. Whats to stop a "clever thief" from taking a household tool to the rack itself and cutting out a 3" or 5" inch section to release your lock(s) and then work on the locks at his or her leisure?

My corded Dewalt 4 1/2" angle grinder with a cutting blade on it would do it in under thirty seconds*

* This is a guess, it will go through 5/16 hardened chain as fast as you want, truly like a hot knife through butter. Of course it is corded so you need to park your bike near an outlet.
I have a Craftsman version that will cut through a FRAME in under 30 seconds. These are the heavy duty beach crusiers, not any lightweight LBS stuff.

So.... I dunno what people are tethering their bikes to but most bike racks I see are just steel tubing welded into a bike rack shape and its usually not all that thick. Whats to stop a "clever thief" from taking a household tool to the rack itself and cutting out a 3" or 5" inch section to release your lock(s) and then work on the locks at his or her leisure?

Most of the street ring-posts here are solid steel and about 1' 1/2" thick. It would take a long while to cut through that, I would guess. I've never seen one cut, in any case. I never use less than 2 locks and most often 3, running them through every bar on my bike-frame and on both sides of the ring-post so that any thief would have to cut through the ring post twice or the frame two or three times, discouraging them, I hope. The best deterrent, I figure, is parking my bikes in a well-lit, high foot-traffic and/or security surveilled area where people would notice someone screwing around with them and WOULD interfere or call the cops. My bikes are so unique that most places I park are places I am well-known in and people would let me know if someone was trying to steal my bikes. Not to sound like a tough guy, but they would not want to have me catch them. ;)

Thats the Masterlock streetcuff. Makes it look like a cop locked your bike.
http://www.totalbike.com/shop/images/products/B0001UPRLQ.jpg

Thanks! That looks like it. I seem to recall now that it was a Masterlock. They sure seemed like tough locks. Expensive too.

I have a Craftsman version that will cut through a FRAME in under 30 seconds. These are the heavy duty beach crusiers, not any lightweight LBS stuff.

Doesn't that make the bike harder to ride?

Well, I guess they can cut the frame, leave the lock and take all the expensive parts connected to the frame at once. That's why I lock through my wheels too, but most everyone does that. The first day I rode my nice bike to school I was walking back to it and see three kids on wal-mart bikes come around the corner to scope out my bike. I wanted them to get closer to it so I could chase them and kick in some spokes but they took off. Also I felt better knowing that my last bike was probably only stolen by these little kids and probably not some big time theif jumping out of a van with bolt cutters.

Thanks! That looks like it. I seem to recall now that it was a Masterlock. They sure seemed like tough locks. Expensive too.
Seemed is the word. Those things are susceptable to the BiC pen problem AND "a common household tool*"


*Bicycling magazine test

It is human nature to spread rumors and make "guesses" about matters that are easily proven or disproven. However, the nature of internet forums seems to be that the rumors and guesses spread very rapidly, while established facts get zero attention.

Two of the "internet myths" concerning bike locks:

- Myth One....BIC pens: the number of bikes locked with a Kryptonite lock which have been proven by documented evidence to have been stolen with a BIC pen remains at ZERO.

Yup, some folks have sat at their kitchen table and eventually opened a lock with a BIC pen. But, there is not a single proven case of a bike being stolen with this method. Crooks have faster, more dependable methods of stealing bikes.

- Myth Two: all "expensive" locks are more or less equal. Again, on the internet, folks just make up their facts. "I could cut such and such lock in 30 seconds with a portable tool".

But, in the UK, the Sold Secure Institute, and in Holland, the ART Foundation actually test locks with the tools and techniques commonly used by real crooks. Their tests, as well as the tests done by the UK's "Cycling Plus" prove that all expensive locks are NOT equal. Some "brand name" locks can be broken by commonly used techniques in just five seconds. And some are extremely strong, and can last five minutes or more against the best tools and the best techniques.

Sold Secure, the ART Foundation, and Cycling Plus have all given the Kryptonite New York U-lock their highest rating. Manual attacks using "Pro" tools fail (but can mangle the frame that the lock is attached to). Using the type of pocket-sized, concealable, battery-operated power tools known to be used by actual crooks, the Kryptonite New York Lock lasted more than ten very noisy minutes.

Cut a top-rated bike lock "in 30 seconds" using a portable, battery operated tool? Just another bit of internet nonsense, when the lock being attacked is the Kryptonite New York lock.

But, this is the internet. So, the great majority of folks who read these forums will soon be at the coffee shop, talking with their buddy "Didja know that your $80 lock can be cut in thirty seconds? I read on the Internet, so it must be true..."

Thanks! That looks like it. I seem to recall now that it was a Masterlock. They sure seemed like tough locks. Expensive too.


Seemed is the word.

Incorrect. EnigManiac is using it in the present tense; it is presently occurring - "For someone who apparently enjoys pointing out grammatical/spelling errors in every post, you sure seem to be wrong a lot." Past tense; has already occurred - "You seemed to know what you were talking about." Anyway...

Like everyone else said, if a thief wants your bike bad enough, they'll probably find a way to get it.

You must have a MUCH better cordless grinder than the editors of "Cycling Plus". The Kryptonite New York U-lock is rated as less strong than the Fahgettaboudit, and the editors needed more than five minutes with a cordless grinder to cut just one shackle. But, to open the lock, it was necessary to cut two shackles, making the total time over ten minutes.

Have you actually opened the 2005 version of the Fahgettaboudit with your cordless grinder?

No.
I use the gas powered type firemen use... :p

Yeah I see guys hauling oxyacetylene tanks around every day. Don't be ridiculous

Don't come to Pasadena,TX. With all the refineries around here, you can't drive anywhere without seeing a truck converted into a portable welder's station. If they wanted to, they could cut your chain, take your bike, and then weld the chain back together. But that is extreme thinking.

Parking a bike in public is always a gamble. Just part of the the life we live. With the proper lock, and place to lock it up, that just will help decrease your chance of having it stolen.

"Yup, some folks have sat at their kitchen table and eventually opened a lock with a BIC pen."

Did it in the shop numerous times, takes 20-30 seconds. Did not work on every lock, probably seventyfive percent. I haven't heard of one being stolen, but ask Koffee about her bike getting unlocked and moved across the plaza and locked up in a new location even tho it was locked with Krypto locks.

That happens to me all the time. I just presumed I'd forgotten where I'd left my bike :D

Maybe I'm missing something here, but I am unaware of any material that could withstand a 6000 deg F cutting torch for a significant period of time. Maybe a ceramic, but ceramics generally do not fare well against a hammer.

To claim that a bike lock is not good because it can be cut by a torch is nonsense.

Incorrect. EnigManiac is using it in the present tense; it is presently occurring - "For someone who apparently enjoys pointing out grammatical/spelling errors in every post, you sure seem to be wrong a lot." Past tense; has already occurred - "You seemed to know what you were talking about." Anyway...

Like everyone else said, if a thief wants your bike bad enough, they'll probably find a way to get it.


He wasn't referring to grammar: he was illustrating that 'seemed' was an impression of a lock and the lock, in fact, had poignant weaknesses.

At first, I thought it was a grammatical criticism too, but after re-reading, I understood the intent. No worries.

:)

"Yup, some folks have sat at their kitchen table and eventually opened a lock with a BIC pen."

Did it in the shop numerous times, takes 20-30 seconds. Did not work on every lock, probably seventyfive percent. I haven't heard of one being stolen, but ask Koffee about her bike getting unlocked and moved across the plaza and locked up in a new location even tho it was locked with Krypto locks.

On the day it was announced, I was at an LBS and the guy behind the counter opened every one of the Kryptonite's he had on the wall with the .29 bic pen he bought next door before tossing them into a box to be returned. It was no myth. I saw it. Took him about 15 seconds per lock.

He wasn't referring to grammar: he was illustrating that 'seemed' was an impression of a lock and the lock, in fact, had poignant weaknesses.

At first, I thought it was a grammatical criticism too, but after re-reading, I understood the intent. No worries.

:)

I apologize for coming off like an a$$ then. :beer:

Incorrect. EnigManiac is using it in the present tense; it is presently occurring - "For someone who apparently enjoys pointing out grammatical/spelling errors in every post, you sure seem to be wrong a lot." Past tense; has already occurred - "You seemed to know what you were talking about." Anyway...

Like everyone else said, if a thief wants your bike bad enough, they'll probably find a way to get it.Ain't that something? I done got learned a grammar lesson. Shazzam! :roflmao:


He wasn't referring to grammar: he was illustrating that 'seemed' was an impression of a lock and the lock, in fact, had poignant weaknesses.

:)
Precisely correct old chap

I apologize for coming off like an a$$ then. :beer:
It's not like you're the first to mistakenly fire a shot across my bow. :beer:

I saw a bike lock a few weeks ago that looked like a giant pair of hand-cuffs: strong and heavy looking and...freakin' expensive: $170.00 for the smaller and $210.00 Cdn for the larger. I don't recall the name, but they looked like they could deter even the most ardent of thieves. You'd need an SUV following you to carry it though.

actually the street cuffs failed the magazine tests! They have a fatal flaw. 18 seconds.
ick.

Maybe I'm missing something here, but I am unaware of any material that could withstand a 6000 deg F cutting torch for a significant period of time. Maybe a ceramic, but ceramics generally do not fare well against a hammer.

To claim that a bike lock is not good because it can be cut by a torch is nonsense.

I don't claim that the lock isn't good; I personally think the Fahgettaboudit is the best lock on the market and thieves would have an easier time cutting my frame and wheel or whatever I locked too. I was just surprised how fast the torch went through my chain. Although the guy who referred me to the lady told me she'd have it in 2 seconds but that might've been an exaggeration.

Maybe they could put ceramic shells on the links, but that may be over kill.