General Cycling Discussion - i can't help but think about opening a bike shop...

in the williamsburg area of brooklyn.

i know it's no way to get rich, but i've been thinking about the situation for a while and there is a huge need for a good shop in the area, especially one with friendly service, some lower priced rides, and sales and service for the huge local fixie community.

there are two bike shops in the area, nyc bikes on havemeyer (just search BF to see what people think of them) and the bicycle doctor on grand street, another shop which has surly salespeople, limited selection and high prices.

otherwise, there's nothing at all. there's a tiny used bike place out in bushwick, a few po-dunk bike shops here and there and a couple of pro race shops in south brooklyn.

otherwise, people are going over the bridge to manhattan.

it strikes me that almost everyone i know either owns a bike or wants to buy one. everyone is totally turned off by the two williamsburg shops and everyone asks me where to go. i really can't give them an answer unless they want to buy new and moderately pricey bikes.

also, i can't count how many times i've been spotted by someone while locking up my SS conversion cross bike and they ask me "where can i get an old, simple bike converted to a single speed with brakes?"

i have a feeling that if there were a local shop doing decent SS conversions and selling in the $300 range, there are a lot of bikes to be sold.

i end up doing so much wrenching (typically in exchange for beer) and think that if this could translate into a real business in the neighborhood (with the help of a few talented individuals), a huge market of reasonably well-off, young and fun-loving city people is there for the taking.

how insane an idea is this?

I think that would be an awesome idea. I WISH in my area (outside of sac, ca) had a decent, not expensive, laid back, cool shop. Not some stuck up, shop.

i say go fo it, but its your decision :)

Make sure you have enough money to do such a project. I read somewhere that 90% of businesses that fail (start ups) is due to lack of money. You may have a good idea, but if you don't have the capitol behind you, you won't make it.

Koffee

More power to ya, buddy!

Well if you have the money then go for it, just be aware your time will be consumed with other peoples bikes and not your own. I know a lot of lbs owners who don't ride as much as they'd like to.

...i end up doing so much wrenching (typically in exchange for beer) and think that if this could translate into a real business in the neighborhood (with the help of a few talented individuals), a huge market of reasonably well-off, young and fun-loving city people is there for the taking.

how insane an idea is this?

If you have capital and are willing to risk underwriting a loss for a couple of years, it may make sense you for you; but beware, the overhead of running a LBS is high, competition intense, expectations of consumers quite high, and the failure rates of new shops are extraordinarily high.

I just checked some stats from http://www.bicycleretailer.com/bicycleretailer/images/pdf/statistics.pdf. The data is quite dated, but as follows:

Total Bike Shops in USA:

1997 7,000
1998 6,000

Ratio of start-ups to closings in 1997: 1:1
Ratio of start-ups to cosings in 1998: 0.3:1

My bet is that with the market penetration of the REI, Big Box Retailers, Performance, Nashbar, etc., current numbers are no better or worse. Does anyone have any more recent data?

To emphasize the risks, I'll add that I have a friend who bought an established bike shop for less than $100, yes less than one hundred US dollars. Pitiful, the previous owner just wanted to get rid of that hole in his pocket as fast as he could.

To emphasize the risks, I'll add that I have a friend who bought an established bike shop for less than $100, yes less than one hundred US dollars. Pitiful, the previous owner just wanted to get rid of that hole in his pocket as fast as he could.

I believe you. It's not a good way to make a living. Around here, bike shop ownerships change all the time.

But this would be an atypical shop, I am not sure where you find used bikes you can SS and turn around for 300 bucks, but I would shop anywhere that didn't have the attitude problem I have found even at recycle a bike. Maybe you could mix the use of the space, or as I have discussed with others who are interested, rent out repair stand time like in SF (Freewheels, I think) (does anyone have experience with those shops?) I don't know much about startup costs for bike shops, but the niche you want to fill, there is a market for, and there are plenty of empty storefront spaces to put it in, if your were open till after the evening rush hour, off the WillyB, and people knew they could stop by for repair etc, I think you could make it past the doubters. Good Luck.

Notice those bike shop figures are pre dot-com crash too. The dot-bomb killed off a lot of the young yuppish demand for bikes. Also, it's been what, 6-7 years since those figures? And the Chinese makers have encroached that much more... It's a hard way to make a living, I'd start small and let it grow very slowly .... work out of your house and very slowly build up. That way you won't have to borrow money to get it going, and you don't want to borrow money - you'll have to pay it back, and that will make your life hell, trying to make a new biz go, with the added burden of paying back loans.

I have considered doing the same thing here in Toronto, being more of a niche shop that would feature unusual, custom and collectable cruisers, choppers, etc. The problem is, there are a lot of bike shops in Toronto and they have exclusive agreements with the manufacturers for distribution, so it may be a tough go of it...tougher than usual that is.

Maybe you could mix the use of the space

Last week I went to a LBS in Cherry Grove SC that sold bikes and exotic birds (parrots, macaws, etc.) I walked into the place and a screaming parrot scared the h*ll out of me. It was definitely not your average LBS.

I couldn't deal with talking bikes all day with cyclists who just drop by to hang out. I'd have to pull the fire alarm or something eventually to get rid of them.

I couldn't deal with talking bikes all day with cyclists who just drop by to hang out. I'd have to pull the fire alarm or something eventually to get rid of them.


Ha ha. But I am sure we have all been guilty of this at least once or twice.

Have you ever worked in a bike shop? You might want to try that first if you haven't. It might change your perspective.

I think its a good idea.
from what I can tell Brunnig isn't talking about
taking on REI, Performance, RAcycles, but a shop
like Yojimbo's garage in Chitown. (right?)
more a messenger, fixie, not high dollar shop.
Investment would be rent for shop,
tools fixtures etc. and stock. . .
shouldn't be too bad.

Marty

You'd be in a good position to take advantage of all the hipsters. What about a co-op?

In my old neighborhood there was a "youth community bike shop." It was to bike shops the way that teaching hospitals are to for-profit hospitals. Their primary focus was on teaching bike repair, primarily to teenagers. They sold no new bikes. They sold accessories and provided repairs to the general public. They accepted donations of bikes, which they fixed and sold as well.

I think they have a much more sustainable business model than a typical retail bike shop. They were incorporated as a non-profit, so donors could deduct the value of donated bikes (They actually got so many bikes that storage was a problem and they had to turn them away). Since they had an educational purpose, they were eligible for grants from foundations, which was the primary source of funding. This allowed the staff to focus on spreading knowlege and love of cycling instead of chasing the last dollar -- or at least, allowed them to chase different, easier dollars.

I can put you in contact with them if you are interested.

right, i'm not talking about a shop that would sell online or be a major retailer of high-end stuff. something more in the vein of trackstar or bikeworks, but sort of specifically designed to meet the needs (and aesthetic) of the community in which it would be located.

it's hard to explain to someone who doesn't know the neighborhood, but i feel that if the business had the kind of bubbly, hip, open and friendly kind of "boutique" attitude so pervasive in many other williamsburg businesses, it would do well.

people who live and shop in this neighborhood are familiar with these businesses, trust them and already know how to relate to them. when one of these people walks in to the Bicycle Doctor, they're inside a narrow, dark and dusty little shop where the staff is behind a wall of bikes and no one asks if they can help you for 5 minutes. not a good fit.

i've never worked in a bike shop, but i've spent a lot of time in them, have many friends who have worked in them, and think that with my past business experience, and some friends' past retail storefront-type experience, it could happen.

of course money is the main problem. the only business i've owned was business service-based and i already owned a lot of the appropriate equipment. there was no storefront, no inventory and no employees other than the three business partners, so startup costs were very low. i would totally fear taking out a loan for this...

mixed-use is a great idea, though. bikes, clothing, fashion, music and many other things go hand-in-hand and could help carry the shop through the winter months.

thanks for the thoughts, all.

lilHinault idea is to my mind right, you dont know the ins & out of the Bike Business, best go work in one, even if it for the weekend. If it is a serious project you want to undertake, then its worth doing. See which disributors are willing to deal with you, and as for borrowing money to start business, well thats a real catch 22. Never use your house as collatrol, all fails you still got your house. When I started my business, I borrowed of my Visa card, my limit then was £10,000.00, The same limit was on my master card, so I borrowed on one card, invested the money in stock, when my payment was up I would draw on the other card to pay in full the other off. This way my intrest charges were never applied and each month I would draw of one to pay for the other. Till eventually the i put in money the business generated and eventually I did not need the cards, Only borrow what you can payback if all goes to pot, also for 2 years I worked night, driving taxi in London, get a few hours sleep and run my office in the day time, If you can supplement your earnings so you do not have to pull a wage of the business it will go a long way.

Why dont you start with just fixing bikes, part time, but I would serioulsy consider working in a shop first.

Good luck anyhow

Can you afford to live and put money into something that may run at a loss for a while? Possibly too long?
If you can afford to do that, then it's worth a try. No bike shop I know of makes much money.
Being in a big city may be just what you need to have enough bussiness.
Can you do two or three things at once and talk to a customer at the same time?

Here's a story about someone who gave away a bike shop:
http://www.herald-mail.com/?module=displaystory&story_id=110883&format=html

Most bike shop owners claim not to make any money on the shop.

Could you operate out of your garage (if you have one) for a while to see how it goes? If you want to sell custom fixies then you don't really need a whole shop, just a place to build and sell a few bikes at a time. Another option would be to hollow out your basement for this purpose, much like home-based hairdressers. ;)

I'm planning on opening one in New Mexico or something... not now, but when I'm around 40 years old. (still have over 10 years to save up!) a bike shop that also serves really good coffee/breakfast/lunch... that's my dream.

I'm planning on opening one in New Mexico or something... not now, but when I'm around 40 years old. (still have over 10 years to save up!) a bike shop that also serves really good coffee/breakfast/lunch... that's my dream.

Wow that is ambitious. Tom Rael, a really good character, owns the Sun Mountain Bike Co. in Santa Fe. It's mostly rental, but he does do some sales. He had the business combined with a coffee/breakfast/lunch shop, but sold the latter a year or so ago and now only runs the bike rental. He would be a good contact person to keep in mind.

http://www.sunmountainbikeco.com/sun/rentals.html

Last week I went to a LBS in Cherry Grove SC that sold bikes and exotic birds (parrots, macaws, etc.) I walked into the place and a screaming parrot scared the h*ll out of me. It was definitely not your average LBS.

Yea, I had to sell off my Hyacinth Macaw last year, he was just way too loud. Plus, he could make mince meat of a Brooks Saddle or chew through any tire in a flash.

Could you operate out of your garage (if you have one) for a while to see how it goes? If you want to sell custom fixies then you don't really need a whole shop, just a place to build and sell a few bikes at a time. Another option would be to hollow out your basement for this purpose, much like home-based hairdressers. ;)

An alternative would be to operate out of a van. I was fixing a flat in Michigan last week and a woman stopped to chat. She's operating a bike shop that comes to you. She had been wrenching at a shop that closed and decided to go out on her own. She seemed pretty knowledgeable.

Might as well give her a plug: Mobile Bike Repair, operating out of Three Rivers, Michigan (southwestern Michigan). I saw her west of Kalamazoo, so she's not tightly tied to Three Rivers.

I can't really say whether this is a viable business model, and Jeff's idea is clearly a more standard way to keep the capital costs low.

Could you operate out of your garage (if you have one) for a while to see how it goes?

Better check about municipal zoning restrictions first. Usually the only types of businesses that are allowed in residential areas are no-traffic operations like home offices for sales people, computer programmers, etc.

Businesses very often try a small scale operation before becoming big. Also, are you willing to hire staff?

Let me give you some advice from personal experience. One you cannot beat internet mail order prices. You cannot beat big box prices. Everyone wants the best they can get for nothing, or they will try to talk you down on prices. People initially will be very appreciated you are there from a labor standpoint. However like most here, support of a LBS is limited, because of retail pricing. It will have nothing to do with service, although alot of people say so. Ultimately it will be price of goods.

Let me give you some advice from personal experience. One you cannot beat internet mail order prices. You cannot beat big box prices. Everyone wants the best they can get for nothing, or they will try to talk you down on prices. People initially will be very appreciated you are there from a labor standpoint. However like most here, support of a LBS is limited, because of retail pricing. It will have nothing to do with service, although alot of people say so. Ultimately it will be price of goods.

You are so right. And add what you said to the fact that the LBS's are more often expected to maintain the bikes free of charge once sold, you have a losing situation on sales. The maintainence issue is not a problem for Internet dealers.

The prognosis for the independent bike shop retailer may be as gloomy as it is for the local camera shop. Remember those? However, I think there is still a viable place for shops doing good bike mechanic work.

i want all the parts you can't sell. particularly wheels. i'll pay shipping.

If you do it, consider the mixed use philosophy. Try half bike shop and half religous reading materials......Sign over the front door to read "The Spoke-N-Word"

Let me give you some advice from personal experience. One you cannot beat internet mail order prices. You cannot beat big box prices. Everyone wants the best they can get for nothing, or they will try to talk you down on prices. People initially will be very appreciated you are there from a labor standpoint. However like most here, support of a LBS is limited, because of retail pricing. It will have nothing to do with service, although alot of people say so. Ultimately it will be price of goods.

Exactly. This is why a small business must provide what internet, mail order and big businesses do not: unique products. Stuff like recumbents (how many wal-marts sell those?), trikes, customs, and even single-speeds. And yes, you should always have a stock of "regular" bikes on hand too.

Small businesses must also advertise heavily, and not just using the "regular" mediums. If you're the owner of a custom bike shop, you'll want to show off your wares anyplace that has a lot of people, including trade shows, mall stands, parks, even sporting events. People who see your stuff will want to try it out right there, so let them. No doubt you've seen hundreds of small businesses and shop all over your city, but how many have you seen ads for? Very, very few. You cannot sell to people if they don't know you exist.

Here's an example. Say you've just opened a shop that sells cool recumbents. To advertise, rig up three of the models you're selling with lots of signs and web addresses and phone numbers, so that passers-by will know how to contact you. Then, hire three energetic teens to ride the bikes around the park on a sunny saturday afternoon, screaming your shop's name. That type of advertising is way more memorable than some dorky ad on the radio.

If you do it, consider the mixed use philosophy. Try half bike shop and half religous reading materials......Sign over the front door to read "The Spoke-N-Word"

My buddy has his own tattoo shop. Before he become a tattoo artist he went through siminary (sp). Got him ordained off the web to perform my wedding. My wife was the first one to suggest having a package deal, Wedding and two matching tatoos for a certain amount. I joked with him in front of clients about it, the clients were interested.

Seems to keep afloat, some small business owners have to venture into differnet areas. The guys at my LBS cringe when I joke about them working on those electric or gas powered scooters/minibikes that everyone is buying.

Exactly. This is why a small business must provide what internet, mail order and big businesses do not: unique products. Stuff like recumbents (how many wal-marts sell those?), trikes, customs, and even single-speeds. And yes, you should always have a stock of "regular" bikes on hand too.

Small businesses must also advertise heavily, and not just using the "regular" mediums. If you're the owner of a custom bike shop, you'll want to show off your wares anyplace that has a lot of people, including trade shows, mall stands, parks, even sporting events. People who see your stuff will want to try it out right there, so let them. No doubt you've seen hundreds of small businesses and shop all over your city, but how many have you seen ads for? Very, very few. You cannot sell to people if they don't know you exist.

Here's an example. Say you've just opened a shop that sells cool recumbents. To advertise, rig up three of the models you're selling with lots of signs and web addresses and phone numbers, so that passers-by will know how to contact you. Then, hire three energetic teens to ride the bikes around the park on a sunny saturday afternoon, screaming your shop's name. That type of advertising is way more memorable than some dorky ad on the radio.

Jeff-o, have you ever paid for any advertising? You will find it very expensive. Your are ideas are fine as long as they don't cost, but the reality is that most any media ad beyond the classified section will cost $300 to $2000. Hire three teens at $20 bucks an hour or $160 a day? You are going to have to sell 2 or 3 bikes in a day just to cover their advertising joy rides. And who runs the shop while the owner goes around to trade shows to hawk his wares? What about the cost of transporting all his or her unique offeriings to trade shows? Recumbents? How many recumbents do you think you can sell in a day? And consider the cost of keeping all those unique products on hand for consumers. Inventory is not kept on the floor for free. The bank wants big interest payments every month and if you can keep much stock you will need lots of square feet or a warehouse area. In the real world it's not that easy, if it were you'd see more people doing it. There's a good reason you don't see LBS shop ads very often.

Well first off, there's no way I'd pay some teens $20 an hour to ride my bikes around. I'd give 'em $5 an hour, take it or leave it. If they're under 16, you're not even required to pay minimum wage.

And yes, I understand advertising is expensive. That's too bad. You have to advertise, or you'll go out of business. You have to work it into your budget right from the start. It should be right at the top of your business plan, because you'll be dependant on advertising to get your business started. Word-of-mouth advertising only comes AFTER you have customers.

For someone working out of a garage or a basement, it's no big deal to close for a weekend to bring your wares to a show.

Transportation? Two bikes will fit in a car with a fold-down seat, and 4+ will fit in a pickup. You don't need more than 4 bikes for a mall stand, trade show or the like.

Now, on to inventory. If you're a custom bike builder, you can't have too much inventory sitting around. Sure, the customer will want to see samples, but once they order you buy all the parts and assemble them afterwards. Wal-mart and large bike shops can cater to impulse buyers, but a small shop has to convince their customer that the bike will be ready in a week or two.

Well first off, there's no way I'd pay some teens $20 an hour to ride my bikes around. I'd give 'em $5 an hour, take it or leave it. If they're under 16, you're not even required to pay minimum wage.

And yes, I understand advertising is expensive. That's too bad. You have to advertise, or you'll go out of business. You have to work it into your budget right from the start. It should be right at the top of your business plan, because you'll be dependant on advertising to get your business started. Word-of-mouth advertising only comes AFTER you have customers.

For someone working out of a garage or a basement, it's no big deal to close for a weekend to bring your wares to a show.

Transportation? Two bikes will fit in a car with a fold-down seat, and 4+ will fit in a pickup. You don't need more than 4 bikes for a mall stand, trade show or the like.

Now, on to inventory. If you're a custom bike builder, you can't have too much inventory sitting around. Sure, the customer will want to see samples, but once they order you buy all the parts and assemble them afterwards. Wal-mart and large bike shops can cater to impulse buyers, but a small shop has to convince their customer that the bike will be ready in a week or two.

Okay, your advertising bike riders get a total of $15 per hour as opposed to the $20 an hour I quoted.

As to the practicality of the rest of it, perhaps others will comment. I simply speak from experience in the bike business, but what do I know?

Step one..Find a need or a demand for a product.

Step two.. see if there is enough demand for what you sell to make enough money. Is the volume of customers big enough and what you will sell profitable enough. do the customers have enough money?
Market research...demographics..

Step three make a three year business plan. See if you can afford it.

You already know you live in a big city and people are asking for something. See
how much profit you can make on what you want to sell them. Find out the cost of utilities, rent, insurance, etc. Take it from there.

To this idea I pose the question...
How do you make a small fortune in the bike indusrty?
Start with a large one!!!!
(I apologize if this was already posted. Didn't go through all of the replies.)

yep my dream too. Me and the missus (when she becomes the missus) will open up a community bike shop with a sliding scale repair schedule. And we'll serve tea and chilli and have a nice black cat in the back.
And, oh, I forgot, a little place in back to train little kids to fix bikes.

I for one don't know about the business side but I think there is definitely a demand in the williamsburg/south williamsburg area. and i think brunning's point is that he would fill a niche, and we are not talking about some obese family from Exurb, USA, we are talking about people who live in the community, like to support community businesses and appreciate good music on, cool salespeople, and so forth... for some, the bottom line is not the paramount thing (i'm not talking of course of selling for 100s more than internet price, but for $20 more, if people can see you, they'll definitely come). there were many who predicted the death of all businesses with rise of the internet and look where that's brought us... nowhere. and especially with big cities; smaller, locally-owned stores are much more sustainable than they ever were due to urban revitalization grants, etc. go for it! i'll be there opening day (though i live in fort greene, also no bike shops)

Forgive me if someone else has mentioned this....but....choppers, SS, cruisers are a pretty limited market and I would imagine the shelf life of their current popularity is short-lived. What do you do when they are longer hot?

BRUNNING,
Did you ever get this off the ground? I was browsing through the site and found this post from '05 and wanted to ask how it worked out for you as I'm thinking of opening a shop myself.

BRUNNING,
Did you ever get this off the ground? I was browsing through the site and found this post from '05 and wanted to ask how it worked out for you as I'm thinking of opening a shop myself.

My 2 cents . . . don't do it!

If you have that kind of money burning a hole in your pocket, buy real estate instead. :p

But if you MUST open a "bike shop", do it out of your garage. Stock up on inner tubes, brake/shift wires & housing. Everything else can be had online or your favorite LBS. Post a card on all your neighbors doors. If you fix a customers bike to their liking, they will tell others.
After a year or so, you will know what to do next. Renting a storefront right out of the gate is a sure way to bail early. :p

You have that kind of "discresionary funding"?? . . again...

REAL ESTATE! :D

Wish someone had told ME that before I opened MY first shop. :rolleyes:

3 shops in my past, for the price of a new Bentley. Or thereabouts.
And not much left to show for it all, except a few cool old bikes.

Instead of 10 acres in the valley. :o

Live & learn, eh?

The most obviusly sucessful bike shops around here are located in wealthier suburbs and carry a lot of inventory. The low end bikes are there but not in large numbers. The thick part of inventory is in the $600 to 1,500 range, with plenty of selections above 2K. I was chatting with the owner of one of these shops and said; "I'd hate to have your inventory financing costs". His reply; That's where all the grey hair came from. The guy was grey.
You are really going to have to hang it out there, financially, to do this one. bk

In my old neighborhood there was a "youth community bike shop." It was to bike shops the way that teaching hospitals are to for-profit hospitals. Their primary focus was on teaching bike repair, primarily to teenagers. They sold no new bikes. They sold accessories and provided repairs to the general public. They accepted donations of bikes, which they fixed and sold as well.

I think they have a much more sustainable business model than a typical retail bike shop. They were incorporated as a non-profit, so donors could deduct the value of donated bikes (They actually got so many bikes that storage was a problem and they had to turn them away). Since they had an educational purpose, they were eligible for grants from foundations, which was the primary source of funding. This allowed the staff to focus on spreading knowlege and love of cycling instead of chasing the last dollar -- or at least, allowed them to chase different, easier dollars.

I can put you in contact with them if you are interested.

I really appreciate your post. This is a great model, not for profit, public grants, educational and charitable.

You may also want to seek out some of the larger bike shops that do a high volume of repairs. At the University of Calif, Davis there are approximately 20,000 students who ride bikes on that campus. They have a huge bike shop on campus, a barn converted into a bike shop. I'm not saying to do this model, but I think some of the student fees cover it. That is "membership".

The advice for running a home/garage based version of your idea is a great one. I started my business (718 Cyclery) in a shop I built in my backyard in Park Slope, Brooklyn 2 years ago. Got good, and figured out who my clients were, and am about to open a storefront in 2 weeks.

www.718c.com

I have a friend who opened a bike store last year. He located it well and connected in with the local bike clubs, bike advocates and sustainability groups and the shop is doing well. In less than a year, he was one of the top 20 Surly dealers I think.

The Community Bicyclist (http://communitybicyclist.com/)

Run the business out of your house . . . see where it leads.

How about limiting your shop to just service, mechanics services??

This includes consulting too. Later on it could grow to bike fitting. That way you have very little inventory to carry, and you let the online stores carry the inventory, or other retail shops.

The only inventory is parts for repairs and replacements. For wheelbuilding, you contact the expert wheelbuilders and advise customers to go there. For damaged carbon, send it off to Calfee. For expert paint jobs and powder coating, somewhere else. For customers with bikes under warranty, show them the exit door.

The trick is to keep the shop from accumulating a lot of junk parts. The biggest investment is paying the tuition for one of the best bike mechanics schools in the country.