Bike lanes

[jslopez]

so I was pretty much oblivious on this issue (as an everyday commuter who rides on streets with and without bike lanes with no accidents so far) but today my opinion has been swayed.

I was riding with my wife on Main Street (Santa Monica, Socal). We were at a tail end of a ride and main street with it's bike lanes "should" have been the most harmless part of the ride, sunny day, we're in our bright bike clothes and ofcourse the evil F$%$$%king bike lane.

In in the left lane a car passes us then drives slows, kind of drifting into the bike lane. I shout "BIKE LANE" and the lady heads back to her lane. My wife then proceeds and is just beside her car when this lady moves into the bike lane, hitting my wife and knocing her down. I thank all known deities that my wife doesn't seem to have any major injuries (we're headed to the doctor now) and I must admit I was a bit torn about how to react. On the one hand I wanted to beat the crap out of this lady who says she didn't see us (I guess bright orange and yellow jerseys and me screaming at her is easy to tune out, on the other she had kids in her car, seemed truly apologetic, apparently she rode as well as had an accident last december which just seemed to make this whole incident even more enraging.

The bike is headed to the bike shop to check and with any luck my wife will walk away with no injuries but outside all this I just feel so bad as she literally just learned to ride a bike in August, did the Solvang half century in March and now she's afraid to ride a bike again...

I just hate all cars and bike lanes right now, thanks for bearing thru this rant.

[STEEKER]

The bike lane is not at fault it was the lady drivers actions of not staying allert which is very common with cagers

[Dchiefransom]

It's not the bike lanes, it's the drivers not paying attention. I've been forced out of the right hand lane while I was riding almost in the center of it. When a cyclist is in the right lane, and a car is in the left, the situation is no different. Was the woman arrested and taken to jail? Was she even given a ticket for carless driving? Did the police officer take her license on the spot? Until these drastic actions happen, nothing will change. See the thread about cyclists running red lights. When nothing happens, behavior doesn't change.

[suntreader]

Bike lanes are better than no bike lanes.

Let us pray for the day when drivers will learn to obey traffic laws as well as we do.

[larue]

If she was swaying into the bike lane what makes you think she wouldn't have swayed off the road? How is this the fault of the bike lane?

When I spot suspicious cars I stay away from them until it's safe to pass.

[sunninho]

You know, LA is just not a bike-friendly city. I live on the west side and no matter where I ride -- Santa Monica, Brentwood, Venice, PCH to Malibu, Culver City, even the beach paths -- I'm pretty paranoid.

I like bike lanes, though, but this is a car-centric city and the drivers just don't look out for us. It's a shame that lady actually rides, herself, and never saw you guys. I always go out of my way to make room for bikes, even motorbikes. Sorry this happened to you and your wife, man. Glad to hear she's ok.

[twahl]

If she was swaying into the bike lane what makes you think she wouldn't have swayed off the road? How is this the fault of the bike lane?

When I spot suspicious cars I stay away from them until it's safe to pass.

That was my thought too. See someone act erratic, you stay away from them. It's a terrible thing to have happen, especially to someone that might be kind of tentative about riding anyway, and I hope she's OK.

I do have one thought here, because I never fail to be amazed by the contempt many cyclists have for drivers. Cagers? Give me a break. We do hear stories of cyclists (or at least people riding bicycles) that run into people going the wrong way on bike lines. We hear about people falling over when they are startled by someone saying "on your left" and crashing them. We hear about people touching rear wheels and going ass over tea kettle. We hear about "cyclists" clobbering pedestrians. We hear about recreational bike riders weaving all over from lane to lane on MUPs and taking someone out. Obviously these accidents have far less potential of being fatal. Here's my question - considering the number of cyclists you encounter vs. the number of automobile operators you encounter, what might be the percentage of accidents per encounter for each type? Seems to me that when I'm on my bike, I encounter probably 200 cars or more for every cyclist, but I'm just as likely in that same time period to have a fellow cyclist do something stupid.

[Roody]

Several people pointed out that it is not the bike lane that was at fault, but the driver. True enough. However, it seems that another lesson here is that bike lanes do little, if anything, to protect cyclists from inattentive motorists. I mean, why would one expect a strip of paint to stop a car from hitting a cyclist? I see two problems with bike lanes illustrated here. One is that they give some motorists and cyclists a false sense of security. The other is that if they do not work, then bike lanes are a waste of money. Perhaps more cyclist's lives would be saved if we used that money to educate the horrible cyclists decried by some of the posters here.

And twahl--your comments are asinine and irrelevant. The OP's wife was not doing anything wrong! She was just riding in the bike lane like a good little cyclist. If you hate cyclists and love cagers so much--do us a favor and hang out on the car forum instead of the bike forum.

[Roody]

[...]Was the woman arrested and taken to jail? Was she even given a ticket for carless driving? Did the police officer take her license on the spot? Until these drastic actions happen, nothing will change. See the thread about cyclists running red lights. When nothing happens, behavior doesn't change.That was a hilarious slip! Of course, if there was any such thing as justice for cyclists, the woman would be carless. That is, her license would be suspended and her car immobilized as punishment for her negligence.

[twahl]

And twahl--your comments are asinine and irrelevant. The OP's wife was not doing anything wrong! She was just riding in the bike lane like a good little cyclist. If you hate cyclists and love cagers so much--do us a favor and hang out on the car forum instead of the bike forum.

You missed the point. I didn't say that js's wife had done anything wrong. Experience might have told her to be more wary, but she doesn't have the benefit of experience.

My point is that I frequently see people on bicycles doing things that are far more indicative of not paying attention, more frequently on a "per incident" basis than I do drivers.

I find the term "cagers" offensive. Comments like this:

"The bike lane is not at fault it was the lady drivers actions of not staying allert which is very common with cagers"

is what's assinine. If it were that common, you wouldn't be able to step outside your door without being run over by a car, and we obviously all can. If it was all that common, js's wife wouldn't have been able to ride for 8 months before she had her first accident.

Implying that I hate cyclists is assinine, although my comments certainly may have been more appropriate in their own thread. For that, I apologize.

[Roody]

Why do you find cagers to be an offensive term? Did you know that the term derives from our perception that people in metal cars are like animals in metal cages? Unlike us, they are not free to go wherever they want. They have not had the liberating experience of moving rapidly through space under their own power. Furthermore, they are mentally imprisoned by their idiotic belief that autos are the best or only way to get somewhere.

As cyclists, we are free. We have a better life than those who are stuck in cages. I certainly don't mean to offend cagers--I just pity them a bit.

[twahl]

So automobile drivers are stupid animals to be pitied. Gotcha.

I love my bicycle, but I find it to be rather difficult to transport 70 board feet of rough cut oak with it. Sometimes a motor vehicle is the only or best way to get somewhere.

[Roody]

So automobile drivers are stupid animals to be pitied. Gotcha.

I love my bicycle, but I find it to be rather difficult to transport 70 board feet of rough cut oak with it. Sometimes a motor vehicle is the only or best way to get somewhere.
I'm glad you love your bicycle--I guess it's just cyclists you don't love. Gotcha.

[twahl]

I'm glad you love your bicycle--I guess it's just cyclists you don't love. Gotcha.

yep, that's exactly what I said, that I hate cyclists. :rolleyes:

[jslopez]

I actually should have been a bit more clear (as I was too pissed earleir and we were headed to the ER). First off I don't think this was due to my wife's general newness to cycling (as she has been commuting to work and back for the last few months) and in this occasion, we saw the lady swerve, we yelled our presence, she went back to her lane and as my wife was alongside the car it swerves into the bike lane again. I don't think this person was a bad (or that cars are bad for that matter) my concern was that the lady (who apparently was a cyclist) had no concept to check the lane before parking, moreso since it was a bike lane. When on a regular road, you check the next lane over because you think you may hit something, I had thought that for bike lanes it would be the same thing. A few months back this happened to me on the same road, I maneuvered away in time and the guy was apologetic so I chalked it up to random chances. Now my wife almost paid dearly for that.

[twahl]

Sounds like her drifting back out of the bike lane when you yelled was purely coincidental. inatentive people can be dangerous even if they are walking. :( Obviously you are back from the ER now, everything is OK with your wife?

[Roody]

yep, that's exactly what I said, that I hate cyclists. :rolleyes:I'm pretty sure you do. You started out by saying the lady should have avoided the car that hit her--like it was her fault! Then you hijack the thread to launch a diatribe against cyclists, implying that we are usually at fault because we ride the wrong way or something. Also you say that a word we commonly use is offensive to motorists, but you don't express any concerns about a cager swerving into a bike lane. You definitely talk like you don't have much use for us.

Personally, I don't have anything against cagers--sometimes (rarely) I am one. But I sure don't see much point in talking like one! And I sure don't understand why some people defend them in this thread, when they were clearly in the wrong.

[jslopez]

Yes she is ok, thanks for asking.

I can understand the objectiveness of your point of view. It's just hard to be objective when it's somebody you care about who's on the line you then go from logic and statistics to a real person. Once that happens, figures provide little assurance.

[nycm'er]

JS, TWAHL is right, bikers are at fault even when cars do stupid things to them, and it's your fault not your wife's, besides, with out bike lanes, where is every one gonna double park?

Does ManAsses VA have even one car in it? I would like to propose the idea that TWAHL does not ride a bike at all.
Have fun reading all my past posts Tom, does that "hurt so good?"

[lilHinault]

I'll agree with Twahl, I think the competency of drivers is higher than the competency of cyclists, on the road. This is because drivers drive daily, and probably have been doing so since high school. Cyclists range from the uber-expert to the screamin' Fred who does everything wrong - not intentionally, just never got trained, and generally has not been using a bike as a primary vehicle since before adulthood.

It's cycling's dirty little secret, and it's about time we faced it.

What will cure it? More cyclists on the streets and more people considering a bicycle to be a true vehicle just "as good as" or "as respectable as" a car, and the only thing I can think of that will cure that is $10 gas or a Depression happening that makes $3 gas as expensive to the average person as $10 gas. When that happens, we'll see a cycling golden age, we'll see decent train and public transport service again, and then we'll be able to if it's really a more fun way to live. Part of me thinks...

Yes!! With a population riding more, we'll have much less of the anxiety/depression that goes with the sedentary lifestyle, and we'll see lots of people realizing that not putting $500-$1000 a month into owning a car means more money for more worthwhile things. We'll see car accident deaths go down, as motor vehicles will be tend to be owned by "professional" drivers such as delivery, the local contractor with a truck full of tools and wood, transport drivers like cabs and buses etc. It will be easy to have a car lane and a whole lane for bikes under these circumstances. More riders on the road means if I get hit by a car, there are many biker eyes getting the guy's license number and many hands helping me out.

But part of me thinks.....

Cars become out of the financial reach of most but since they who have the gold make the rules, public transportation continues to lag far behind the need. Not everyone is physically able to thrive walking/biking everywhere and the younger family member puffing along with poor sick old Grandpa or Grandma (or parent) stuffed in a Burley trailer going to/from the hospital becomes a not uncommon sight. With cars/trucks rarer, there are less bicyclists being hit, but since everyone's poorer, unfortunately, crime tends to spring up and bikers getting knocked down and bike stolen, even pockets gone through or worse becomes a factor to worry about. Accidents with motor vehicles become rarer but accidents between bikers skyrocket. The old term "scorcher" comes into use again and it's not one of endearment. Slow-speed bike accidents tend to be more comical than anything else, and everyone untangles and has a good laugh or a good cuss and goes on, but America is still the land of the rush hour and the long commute, so many cyclists ride too fast, endangering themselves and others. Plus cycling's other dirty little secret, the single-vehicle accident. The well-meaning folks at the NTSB shake their heads, as in the new bike age travel has become actually more dangerous...... People pine for the old car-dominated days the way we pine for the Old West or the 1950s now...

There you have it, two views. I wonder which one we'll see?

Meanwhile, we've got to educate, educate, educate! In motorcycle circles, it's not all that uncommon to have a Motorcycle Safety Foundation graduate type, or one of the local Hell's Angels, give you a tip or two if they see you doing something foolish that looks like a lack of training. Up in San Francisco the skaters have the "skate patrol" which is a group of skaters who wear red shirts, and go around giving new skaters lessons in safe braking and skating, and otherwise help out. We're in a situation where bikers and "cagers" all need more education and need to become more conscious of what we're doing.

[LittleBigMan]

Mr. Lopez, I am very sympathetic to your wife's crash.

If Mrs. Lopez can get back on the bike as soon as possible, she'll be fine. But don't push her. :)

[genec]

I'll agree with Twahl, I think the competency of drivers is higher than the competency of cyclists, on the road. This is because drivers drive daily, and probably have been doing so since high school. Cyclists range from the uber-expert to the screamin' Fred...

Fair assesment, however I would like to add that sadly too many drivers never improve over their initially taught skills, and in fact go on to later learn bad habits that actually degrade the lessons originally taught to them since high school.

Too many drivers fail to look, signal, and assume they know the laws, younger male drivers tend to push their vehicles to the limits for the thrill of the ride.

So while we really want to believe that motorists are quite skilled, but the reality is that there are also "uber-experts to the screamin' Freds" out there behind the wheel.

Add to that the distractions of auto entertainment systems and cell phones and the picture is not pretty.

If you don't believe what I say... simply find a good vantage point some time over a major intersection or freeway and watch the traffic for a while, you will see some surprisingly dumb moves and bad driving habits.

[noisebeam]

Bike lanes are better than no bike lanes.

I'd venture to say that is debatable ;)

(not again here in this thread though please)

Al

[Roody]

lilHinault--I think roads are designed to be more or less idiot-proof for motorists, not for cyclists. For example, the driver in the OP scenario drifted into the bike lane more than once, qualifying as idiotic cager behavior. Nevertheless, had Mrs. L. not been there, the driver would not have suffered any mishap as a result of her poor driving. This is because traffic lanes (whether there is a bike lane or not) are designed to be wider than the cars, providing a "fudge factor" for inexpert drivers like this one. However, there is no fudge factor for cyclists because roads were not designed for cyclists. Therefore, cyclists end up looking like idiots even when they are not idiots, as in this case. In other words, our roads are designed to protect inexpert cagers at the expense of competent cyclists. And in this case, the bike lane supposedly designed for cyclists failed to protect poor Mrs. L.

Again, I do not understand why people are using this particular thread--which is about a fellow cyclist who was the actual victim of a lousy driver and poor road design--to harp on the (supposed) poor traffic handling abilities of other (hypothetical) cyclists.

[jslopez]

Mr. Lopez, I am very sympathetic to your wife's crash.

If Mrs. Lopez can get back on the bike as soon as possible, she'll be fine. But don't push her. :)


All I'm pushing for is for her to get some good TLC.

She's a strong one and will be back on the bike (in her own time ofcourse).

[Crashtest]

If she was swaying into the bike lane what makes you think she wouldn't have swayed off the road? How is this the fault of the bike lane?

When I spot suspicious cars I stay away from them until it's safe to pass.

I pretty much agree with this. The car driver is obviously at fault, not the bike lane. I try to ride defensively because I more or less expect stupid things from cars, cyclists, and Ped's. If I do happen to see someone driving (or cycling, or walking) erratically, I try to get the hell away from them.

Before anyone flames me for this: I am NOT on the side of the driver, and I do NOT blame the cyclist who was hit in any way. I just think it's a real pain that we all have to have eyes in the back of our heads so we can watch out for the morons out there on the road. I hope the driver was charged with something?

[ofofhy]

All I'm pushing for is for her to get some good TLC.

She's a strong one and will be back on the bike (in her own time ofcourse).

What was the driver's reaction? Was she apologetic? Is she covering the trip to the ER, and any bike repairs?

[twahl]

Before anyone flames me for this: I am NOT on the side of the driver, and I do NOT blame the cyclist who was hit in any way. I just think it's a real pain that we all have to have eyes in the back of our heads so we can watch out for the morons out there on the road. I hope the driver was charged with something?

They'll flame you anyway. I never defended the driver or blamed the cyclist either.

[RocketsRedglare]

What about the "italiano" idiot I saw while I was driving on PCH in Newport Beach.

For some reason, he was riding well to the outside of a clearly defined and well maintained bike lane. Jackholes like this are the ones that frustrate motorists, and give cyclists a bad rep.

[LittleBigMan]

All I'm pushing for is for her to get some good TLC.


I'm sure she'll get plenty of that! ;)

[jslopez]

I pretty much agree with this. The car driver is obviously at fault, not the bike lane. I try to ride defensively because I more or less expect stupid things from cars, cyclists, and Ped's. If I do happen to see someone driving (or cycling, or walking) erratically, I try to get the hell away from them.

Before anyone flames me for this: I am NOT on the side of the driver, and I do NOT blame the cyclist who was hit in any way. I just think it's a real pain that we all have to have eyes in the back of our heads so we can watch out for the morons out there on the road. I hope the driver was charged with something?


My concern about the bike lane is that this driver (who seems decent enough) had no "prompts" and the only time she would have been reminded that her practice was wrong was if she hit someone (which she unfortuantely did.

Does plain inattantiveness come into play, sure, but if you're speeding in a resedeintial area, there's speed bumps, pedestrain lanes are clearly marked, schools have cross walking guards, bike lanes have the words painted on them which I'm not even sure the averagedriver can read...

As far as charging the driver, well I'm off to get a police report but am really not sure what my options are from here outside getting coverage from whatever damages and that seriously doesn't seem enough after the scare that gave us.

[jslopez]

What was the driver's reaction? Was she apologetic? Is she covering the trip to the ER, and any bike repairs?


she was nice enough after the accident and I'll find out today if she's good about the costs. I left her a message last night and asked her to call me but nothing so far.

[Helmet Head]

so I was pretty much oblivious on this issue (as an everyday commuter who rides on streets with and without bike lanes with no accidents so far) but today my opinion has been swayed.

I was riding with my wife on Main Street (Santa Monica, Socal). We were at a tail end of a ride and main street with it's bike lanes "should" have been the most harmless part of the ride, sunny day, we're in our bright bike clothes and ofcourse the evil F$%$$%king bike lane.

In in the left lane a car passes us then drives slows, kind of drifting into the bike lane. I shout "BIKE LANE" and the lady heads back to her lane. My wife then proceeds and is just beside her car when this lady moves into the bike lane, hitting my wife and knocing her down. I thank all known deities that my wife doesn't seem to have any major injuries (we're headed to the doctor now) and I must admit I was a bit torn about how to react. On the one hand I wanted to beat the crap out of this lady who says she didn't see us (I guess bright orange and yellow jerseys and me screaming at her is easy to tune out, on the other she had kids in her car, seemed truly apologetic, apparently she rode as well as had an accident last december which just seemed to make this whole incident even more enraging.

The bike is headed to the bike shop to check and with any luck my wife will walk away with no injuries but outside all this I just feel so bad as she literally just learned to ride a bike in August, did the Solvang half century in March and now she's afraid to ride a bike again...

I just hate all cars and bike lanes right now, thanks for bearing thru this rant.
First, I'm glad to year your wife is basically okay. I hope this incident causes her to focus her energies against the dangers of bike lanes and "keep to the right" cycling in general, rather than seeing this as an example of inherent dangers in traffic cycling. It isn't.

Yes, the bike lane is at fault here, and not just this particular bike lane, but the entire concept of a bike lane, which is incompatible with tried and true rules of traffic. This is simply yet another example that illustrates how and why bike lanes cause problems by misguiding cyclists and motorists.

In this case the cyclist was lulled into treating the bike lane just like any other lane, and passing a slowing motorist on the motorist's right. If bike lanes were really like any other lane, this would be a perfectly reasonable and rational thing to do. But bike lanes are not like any other lane. The reason bike lanes are not like any other lane is because motorists aren't supposed to treat them like any other lane. They are of course more narrow than regular lanes, and motorists are generally supposed to stay out of them. This causes more problems than it solves, this incident being a case in point.

The motorist was lulled into treating the bike lane not like any other lane, but as an area she's supposed to avoid, like a shoulder, despite her temporary drift into it. Apparently she was preparing to park, which is impossible to do without merging into the bike lane. Cyclists seem to expect motorists that need to merge into or across a bike lane to give the right-of-way to cyclists - again treating the bike lane not like any other lane on the road.

Without the bike lane, your wife probably would have been less comfortable passing the slow motorist on her right. What she should have done was pull out behind the motorist, and then pass her on the motorist's left. But the bike lane made her think that she should stay where she is and continue. That's the fault of the bike lane concept, and there is no way around it.

Others have said we're better off with bike lanes than without, without explaining why (they never do - it's an emotional given without any rational substantiation).

The problem with bike lanes is that there are no rules, and can be no rules, on how they are to be used that are compatible with the tried and true rules of the road. How many cyclists have to be injured, maimed and killed before cycling advocates get fed up? Does it really take seeing a loved one getting hit by a car driven by a motorist who is a cyclist herself?

This incident is not the fault of the motorist, nor of the cyclist. This incident is the fault of the bike lane concept, and every person who supports bike lanes. Jslopez is right. Bike lanes must go...

Serge

[Crashtest]

My concern about the bike lane is that this driver (who seems decent enough) had no "prompts" and the only time she would have been reminded that her practice was wrong was if she hit someone (which she unfortuantely did.

Does plain inattantiveness come into play, sure, but if you're speeding in a resedeintial area, there's speed bumps, pedestrain lanes are clearly marked, schools have cross walking guards, bike lanes have the words painted on them which I'm not even sure the averagedriver can read...

As far as charging the driver, well I'm off to get a police report but am really not sure what my options are from here outside getting coverage from whatever damages and that seriously doesn't seem enough after the scare that gave us.

Yeah, I know what you mean. Around here they put up occasional signs to indicate there is a bike lane, but I'm not sure how much good it does. I know a lot of people don't like bike lanes, but I still feel a little bit safer in there because most cars pass me a little further away. I must admit where I ride I don't see a lot of bike lanes, so maybe I just don't have enough experience with them.

I'm glad your wife is ok. This sort of thing is almost enough to make one take up off-road biking exclusively.

[sggoodri]

Why did the car driver move right? Was she preparing to turn right?

I don't like cycling directly beside a car going the same speed that I am, because they may forget I am there and then move or turn right. I prefer that they pass me, or if they are going my speed, I slow and merge behind them. If they slow to turn right, I pass them on the left.

A striped bike lane doesn't really lend itself to the above actions. It presumes that cars should stay to the left and bikes to the right, regardless of proper speed or destination positioning. This can create problem at junctions.

On normal non-bike-lane roads I still have some problems with drivers slowing and turning closely right after passing me, but such events tend to be less common and less severe. This is partly because the drivers seem to be more aware of overtaking me when there is no stripe, partly because I ride farther from the curb to provide more maneuvering room, and partly because I don't let anybody drive beside me at the same speed in the same lane. I have always been able to hit the brakes and slip behind a vehicle that started drifting right too early, or looked like it was about to. And I never, ever pass on the right side of a driver who might want to turn or merge right.

-Steve Goodridge
http://humantransport.org/bicycledriving/

[bluebottle1]

Maybe the lesson of all this is that the one who needs to be the most alert is the one who's most likely to get hurt. Please, don't take this to mean that I fault your wife. It sounds like she did nothing wrong, and I'm very glad to hear that she came through this with no major injury. It is an unfortunate fact of the matter, however, that we who are the most vulnerable--cyclists--have to be the ones to take the most responsibility for safety because many motorists simply won't do it. It's not because of malice or being uncaring, it's just plain human nature and probably some inattentiveness based upon trying to find where they are going, having too many different things going on, distraction, etc.

We have bike lanes in my town, and I think they are useless. All the crap and debris from the roadway gets swept into them by the motion of cars and in some places, the city has the lane designated as "bicycle only" but then allows cars to park there for all but two hours per day. The obvious result? A bike lane clogged with parked cars that pushes cyclists even farther out into the main lanes of traffic than they would be had there been no bike lane at all. The only real purpose of the lanes here is so that the region can claim to be doing something in regard to complying with clean air regulations. It is a pure charade, unfortunately.

[twahl]

Maybe the lesson of all this is that the one who needs to be the most alert is the one who's most likely to get hurt. Please, don't take this to mean that I fault your wife. It sounds like she did nothing wrong, and I'm very glad to hear that she came through this with no major injury. It is an unfortunate fact of the matter, however, that we who are the most vulnerable--cyclists--have to be the ones to take the most responsibility for safety because many motorists simply won't do it. It's not because of malice or being uncaring, it's just plain human nature and probably some inattentiveness based upon trying to find where they are going, having too many different things going on, distraction, etc.



I have to admit that you articulated this better than I did. Nobody is going to look out for our safety (whether we are in a car, on a bike, walking, in a canoe, etc. ) as well as we ourselves can, because nobody can see the situation that we are in from the same perspective. Having the right of way doesn't mean you are safe. If it did, there would never be any accidents between two vehicles of any kind. Since there are accidents, the best you can do is be your own strongest safety device by being very wary that someone else may invade your right of way.

[Roody]

Yeah but....

Of course cyclists must be alert and ride defensively. Anyone in a vehicle should do that. If you cannot pay full attention to your driving or riding, park it.

If you are driving, pull over before you use your cell phone, yell at the kids, read a map, etc. Be aware of your lane position and the other vehicles that are sharing the roas.

If you are cycling, avoid or be extra careful in bike lanes--and even so you might get hit! A white stripe will not stop a carelessly driven car.

[nycm'er]

I have to admit that...

I am glad you wrote that Twahl, my fingers are a little burnt from what I wrote to you and I hated that feeling. I agree with you, we as cyclists cannont rely on someone else to be responsible for our safety: Drivers, traffic engineers, or other cyclists. I too hope Mrs. Lopez is okay and is ready to get back on the horse.

[Helmet Head]

Maybe the lesson of all this is that the one who needs to be the most alert is the one who's most likely to get hurt. Please, don't take this to mean that I fault your wife. It sounds like she did nothing wrong, and I'm very glad to hear that she came through this with no major injury. It is an unfortunate fact of the matter, however, that we who are the most vulnerable--cyclists--have to be the ones to take the most responsibility for safety because many motorists simply won't do it. It's not because of malice or being uncaring, it's just plain human nature and probably some inattentiveness based upon trying to find where they are going, having too many different things going on, distraction, etc.

We have bike lanes in my town, and I think they are useless. All the crap and debris from the roadway gets swept into them by the motion of cars and in some places, the city has the lane designated as "bicycle only" but then allows cars to park there for all but two hours per day. The obvious result? A bike lane clogged with parked cars that pushes cyclists even farther out into the main lanes of traffic than they would be had there been no bike lane at all. The only real purpose of the lanes here is so that the region can claim to be doing something in regard to complying with clean air regulations. It is a pure charade, unfortunately.

Exactly. Well put.

I agree the lesson is "the one who needs to be the most alert is the one who's most likely to get hurt".
The reason the concept of bike lanes is at fault here is that they lull cyclists into being less alert.

Bike lanes must go because there are no consistent/reasonable/rational rules governing their use. Somes states (like CA) make a valiant effort, but the result is so complicated that even law enforcement officers, judges and traffic school instructors generally do not understand them, much less the average motorist and cyclist.

Serge

[RocketsRedglare]

I like the idea of bike lanes. I would rather take a chance in a bike line with lower risks than riding "vehicularly" and thrown in with a den of lions in the regularly flow of traffic, frustrating not only myself, but other motorists.

The minute you get in any vehicle (car, boat, truck, bike) you assess and accept risks. It is up to the driver/rider/pilot to stay alert and anticipate that somebody is going to do something stupid, (such as pass you, and then cut you off, or open a door in front of you)

in California we are lucky enough to have well defined bike lanes, that are essentially part of the street, and provide cyclist a safer alternative than riding in the street itself.

But like I mentioned above, a jackhole cyclist riding outside the bike lane, impeding the flow of motor traffic, is just as bad as the motorist that rides in a bike lane

[noisebeam]

I like the idea of bike lanes. I would rather take a chance in a bike line with lower risks than riding "vehicularly"

in California we are lucky enough to have well defined bike lanes, that are essentially part of the street, and provide cyclist a safer alternative than riding in the street itself.

Is it the bike lane that makes you feel safer or the fact that its a wide lane (WOL) that can be safety shared with cars? See the other BL threads for debate on this. (I am curious that you don't consider riding in BLs to be riding in the street itself.)

But like I mentioned above, a jackhole cyclist riding outside the bike lane, impeding the flow of motor traffic, is just as bad as the motorist that rides in a bike lane
There are many reasons for not riding in the BL - some are obvious like debris and preparing for turns, others less so: For example I often leave the BL well (200yrds+) before an intersection when there is a gap in traffic to merge into so I don't end up stuck to the right of a line of cars stopped at a light, when half of them are turning right and I am going straight. Based on the reactions of drivers who must slow behind me as we approach the red light it does annoy many of them, but the alternative is to be primed for a right hook. I do the same when BLs are not present and drivers do not get anywhere near as annoyed.

Al

[jslopez]

Maybe the lesson of all this is that the one who needs to be the most alert is the one who's most likely to get hurt. Please, don't take this to mean that I fault your wife. It sounds like she did nothing wrong, and I'm very glad to hear that she came through this with no major injury. It is an unfortunate fact of the matter, however, that we who are the most vulnerable--cyclists--have to be the ones to take the most responsibility for safety because many motorists simply won't do it. It's not because of malice or being uncaring, it's just plain human nature and probably some inattentiveness based upon trying to find where they are going, having too many different things going on, distraction, etc.


I see your point and know that you may not mean the exact case we had yesterday but in all honesty my wife was being perfectly safe about the whole situtaion. Had I not spoken to the driver I would have almost thought that she was trying to lure my wife for the hit as my wife was right beside her (by the front passenger side when it happened).

Serge articulated my point better than I ever could. My wife was cautious and proceeded what was thought to be safe and the scary part was the driver had NO CONCEPT of a chance to hit anyone. If my wife had run a stop sign, passed a stoped vehicle or anything dangerous then I would't be ranting, but when when you're doing everythign right and get hit, I doubt the call to "look and the other side" will seem reasonable to you.

The other point of this thread is or us to evaluate the effectiveness of our safety measures (like bike lanes) as my wife and I and many others out there commute on these places on a daily basis.

[nycm'er]

But like I mentioned above, a jackhole cyclist riding outside the bike lane, impeding the flow of motor traffic, is just as bad as the motorist that rides in a bike lane

Do you really think that? Is the cyclist threatening the car? Because I certainly think a car driving or parking in a bike lane is threatening to a cyclist. Motorists and you may find it selfish, but dangerous?

[Roody]

Why are so many people blaming the victim? In this case, the cager was wrong and the cyclist was right. Period. End of story.

(Although the presence of a bike lane might have been a secondary or contributing cause.)

[RocketsRedglare]

Is it the bike lane that makes you feel safer or the fact that its a wide lane (WOL) that can be safety shared with cars? See the other BL threads for debate on this. (I am curious that you don't consider riding in BLs to be riding in the street itself.)

There are many reasons for not riding in the BL - some are obvious like debris and preparing for turns, others less so: For example I often leave the BL well (200yrds+) before an intersection when there is a gap in traffic to merge into so I don't end up stuck to the right of a line of cars stopped at a light, when half of them are turning right and I am going straight. Based on the reactions of drivers who must slow behind me as we approach the red light it does annoy many of them, but the alternative is to be primed for a right hook. I do the same when BLs are not present and drivers do not get anywhere near as annoyed.

Al

No he is not threatening the car. But he was impeding the flow of traffic that was (legally) travelling at 50 mph. He was creating a traffic hazard, when there was a clear and defined option to be separated and away from traffic.. No he wasn't avoiding debris but he was riding a good three or four feet in the regular traffic lanes of PCH.

I also enter the streets to make left hand turns or to pass cars that are stopped to make a right hand turn. I like having the option of a bike lane where I have some degree of separation from traffic. I also understand that most motorists have no clue to cycling, so I try to anticipate there moves.

But this cyclist was just selfish and dumb. Kind of like doing a territorial pissing saying that the road belongs to him too. I can't totally understand if this guy was honked at or yelled at

[noisebeam]

I like having the option of a bike lane where I have some degree of separation from traffic.
I think WOLs give all the (sometimes perceived) advantages of BLs without the disadvantages:
http://www.bicyclinglife.com/EffectiveAdvocacy/blvswol.htm

I missed that this guy well out of the BL into the road with no apparent reason was a specific case. But how can one really know what their reason was? Likewise I'd bet (actually know based on the honks) that many motorists think badly of me when I leave the BL for what I know is a very good reason.

Al

[RocketsRedglare]

Why are so many people blaming the victim? In this case, the cager was wrong and the cyclist was right. Period. End of story.

(Although the presence of a bike lane might have been a secondary or contributing cause.)

You're right. to an extent, it was the motorist fault. But I can't see gow the bike lane contributed to this. Sadly, he would have probably been hit anyway.

As I've mentioned before, there are a lot of very self absorbed people in SoCal. Santa Monica has some real gems. Last year a car ran through a few barricades and into a farmers market killing a vew people.

[RocketsRedglare]

I think WOLs give all the (sometimes perceived) advantages of BLs without the disadvantages:
http://www.bicyclinglife.com/EffectiveAdvocacy/blvswol.htm

I missed that this guy well out of the BL into the road with no apparent reason was a specific case. But how can one really know what their reason was? Likewise I'd bet (actually know based on the honks) that many motorists think badly of me when I leave the BL for what I know is a very good reason.

Al


Coming over a hill we had to decelerate and swerve into the left lane to avoid him, If there was another car in the left kane, It would have been the cyclist fault if we were involved in an accident. I should have said something, but that would have startled him and made the situation worse.

He just went on his own merry way, travelling outside the (once again) clearly defined, well maintained bike lane, oblivious to all.

I don't know what this guy's agenda was, but in my book, he is an *****.

[jslopez]

You're right. to an extent, it was the motorist fault. But I can't see gow the bike lane contributed to this. Sadly, he would have probably been hit anyway.

As I've mentioned before, there are a lot of very self absorbed people in SoCal. Santa Monica has some real gems. Last year a car ran through a few barricades and into a farmers market killing a vew people.


It would have been a totally different scenario had there been a more effectife bike alne or no bike lane at all. Sadly (and I'm not trying to sound condescending) but I think one needs to be part of an accident to really understand that.