Advocacy & Safety - Why Do you hate Cars so much?

HE ADMITS THAT HE OWNS A CAR, HE IS LAYING ALL THIS TRIP ON US ABOUT CAROWNERSHIP, AND THE ZEALOT OWNS A CAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

To bad your mamma wasn't a zeolot...for birth control

galen, if a small child has an ear infection in the middle of the night, and has a fever because of it, tell that to the mother and child that it is not an emergeny. Where did you go to medical school? BTW, do you have, or have you ever had a family or children? You cannot fathom that there are emergencies in the middle of the night where you cannot or would not call an ambulence?
galen. I ride a bicycle to work most of the time. I purchased a new home in the central city. I walk my daughter to school every day. recycle, etc. I walk to the gym. I own a ten year old Honda CRX, not a Cadillac Escalade. I am just about as Politically Correct as you are.(sorry, didnt vote for John Kerry) But in the realy world, the reality that working people have to face today, a car is a neccesity. In an idealistic world, there would be public transportation, 24-7, but in Kansas City the public buses stop running at midnight.
Besides, I like owning my car. I enjoy taking off and going fishing and camping in my car with my kids when we can.

Poor baby.



Then what are you whining about?



No I don't have kids (another choice). However, if I did have to get someone to ER or whatever, I'd call an ambulance and leave it in the hands of a professional. At least they'd be in a position to turn on a siren and get through the traffic, which is far more efficient than someone in an ordinary car sitting in gridlock for two hours.



Well, if anybody's going to be drinking at this dinner, it's probably a prudent option to call a cab. Apart from the obvious risks of driving drunk, I'm pretty sure a cab far works out cheaper than a DUI fine.



Yes there is, but I'm still trying to work out exactly what you're on about. I can only guess that you didn't actually read the post you were replying to. Rather you saw a quote in the first paragraph that apparently upset you and decided to just rant for the sake of it. Just to recap, if you choose to own and drive a car it's your choice. At no point did I attempt to deny you that, or indeed try to convince you to do otherwise, I merely pointed out that it was a choice, as is everything else we do in life. I then went on to say that it concerns me not which choice you make, as long as you leave me alone to make my choice. Now if you'd like to explain exactly how this resembles the behaviour of a zealot, I'd be very interested to read your rather curious definition.
I'd be very interested to read your rather curious definition of whinning. (or ranting). You, and the other anti-car zealots have pointed out that once choice where one chooses to live affects the enviroment, is politicaly incorrect, etc,
BTW, like I said here before, an ambulence uses gasoline and pollutes, and charges 500 every time it rolls. My elderly mother fell in the middle of the night. She lives across town, the police and the ambulence came. My sister got in her car with the internal compustine engine to respond to the house, and the ER. The buses dont run at 3 in the a.m. Would you have her hop on her bicyle and ride across town to see if my mom is ok? Or is she socially irresponsible because she made the "choice" not to buy a house next the my mom?
Who's whinning. So you dont have children, "your choice" Is there a problem with those of us that do? Not PC?

To bad your mamma wasn't a zeolot...for birth control
now, now, galen, let's not get personal. Time for your chill pill.

this whole thread is interesting. Almost like the talk boards on the London Guardian. Almost as many zealots.
It's also interesting, because when I ride my bicycle to work or to the store, to commute, I am ridiculed. And here on this internet site, I am the bad guy because I own a car. It just goes to show you, there are extemist in cars,and on bikes. The car drivers dont tolerate us bicyclist, and the zealots on bikes have this irrational hate for cars.

this whole thread is interesting. Almost like the talk boards on the London Guardian. Almost as many zealots.
It's also interesting, because when I ride my bicycle to work or to the store, to commute, I am ridiculed. And here on this internet site, I am the bad guy because I own a car. It just goes to show you, there are extemist in cars,and on bikes. The car drivers dont tolerate us bicyclist, and the zealots on bikes have this irrational hate for cars.
you're the bad guy(in your mind at least) cause you take offense to every little opinion you disagree with. no ones told you you had to do anything. you chose to interpret things that way. you come off as ignorant and reactionary. in real life you're probably not. why take such offense at other peoples opinions? do you want posters to start judging you now, cause no has up to this point even though you seem to think every "car hater" has. also, no one has come off as an irrational zealot yet.

Skanking, why don't you apply your own principles and stop putting everybody here as car-haters? Like you said, people are just expressing their opinion, but you don't seem to accept it. I don't think anyone here is being insulting.

Why can't you live outside the city? Sure you can, but we live in a society where the majority wins. And if the majority doesn't want to build roads so you can live outside the city, you'll have to build it yourself with your own money. You can live ouside the city, but the money needed to build the road to your home could be used to make better bike facilities in a cleaner and safer city. I believe in city living and since there's only so much money for both of us, I'll fight for it, I'll fight for what I believe is my right too. Your freedom steps on mine and vice-versa. There's no end to this, thanks for living in a free country.

BTW, driving is a privilege, not a right.

Your comment on "dirty city" reminds me of an argument I had with someone. He told me he was tired of living in a dirty city so he moved out 100km away. He drove that distance twice a day to work in the city. Really nice, soon enough the countryside will be just as dirty as the city.

Another thing... there are really nice houses on an island close by. Mostly wealthy people. I can't, and won't, take their houses away because I also believe in freedom. What I can do is question their choice. The houses are really nice and huge, but they all look the same with little terrain. A rich version of a trailer park (trailer parks have more terrain). This island used to have the most varied bird population in the province. Save for a few species, the birds are gone... and the street names all have bird names. Same in another suburb I saw with a name like "Enchantered forest"... without a single tree in sight, or "Fairy Creek"... which is now a ditch between two streets.

Anyway, my point is I have a tooth against suburbia and while people can choose to live there, I can question their choice. And to make all this related to the topic, the car is a symptom.

You should read "Bomb the Suburbs"... kind of a DIY book. i'm sure you could find it out there, tho.

galen, if a small child has an ear infection in the middle of the night, and has a fever because of it, tell that to the mother and child that it is not an emergeny. Where did you go to medical school? BTW, do you have, or have you ever had a family or children? You cannot fathom that there are emergencies in the middle of the night where you cannot or would not call an ambulence?
galen. I ride a bicycle to work most of the time. I purchased a new home in the central city. I walk my daughter to school every day. recycle, etc. I walk to the gym. I own a ten year old Honda CRX, not a Cadillac Escalade. I am just about as Politically Correct as you are.(sorry, didnt vote for John Kerry) But in the realy world, the reality that working people have to face today, a car is a neccesity. In an idealistic world, there would be public transportation, 24-7, but in Kansas City the public buses stop running at midnight.
Besides, I like owning my car. I enjoy taking off and going fishing and camping in my car with my kids when we can.

Being I would guess 10 or more years older and thus more experienced in a lot of life's 'emergencies' and having raised 3 kids, regardless of what the mother thinks, unless a child has a very high fever it's not an emergency. Part of being a parent and a husband is making that distiction.

Nobody is picking on anybody for owning a car. There are almost as many cars in this country as there are people.

However, everyone most likely could do more to reduce driving. Some people could do a lot more. The thread was about hating cars. Cars are just objects. Hating them serves no purpose. Instead, those who value the envirionment and open spaces can and do turn their attention to politicals and also can vote with their wallet and their feet.

If people stopped buying McMansions in the exurbs tomorrow, they would stop being built the next day. If people would stop complaining about paying taxes, we might have better public transportation. If more people would have voted for Kerry instead of Bush, we would not be getting ready to drill for oil in the Alaskan wilderness or be loosing soldier in the middle east. Choices were made. Consequences will be paid.

OK
1) if one's child has an ear infection, that cannot wait till morning, one is not going to call 911 and wait for an ambulance. For one thing, most insurance policy wouldnt cover the amburlance call, which average about $500 every time they roll. Ambulances are for life and death emergnecies.But there are cases where one needs to go the ER immediatly, but an ambulance is not appropriate. (also,guess what? An ambulance is operated by the evil internal combustine engine!!!!)
2) I am not going to take a limo to go out to dinner with my wife. Maybe you can afford it we cannot no matter how much money we would save by selling our car. (also, guess what? a limo is operated by the evil internal combustine engine.)
As following the herd, if you read my post I said that I ride a bike to work. You infer that we "follow the herd" by making our choices to own a car. And you make your choice to be a judgemental zealot.

20

at least when you call a limo or ambulance, it's for DEMAND, not necessity. They offer those services because that's their job. If you really want to look at "evil internal combustion engines" in such a fashion, then we'd have a difficult time transporting mass quantities of goods (for stores like target and walmart) and getting services we may need (ambulance, cab, deliveries, etc.).

so... this is where the question of the true NEED of a vehicle comes in. Do some of you drive because biking is "inconvenient"?

Like that last guy said (sorry, I forgot your name :(), most people follow the herd.

My god, this thread has gotten ridiculous. I can admit that my input is not helping, either ;)

galen, if a small child has an ear infection in the middle of the night, and has a fever because of it, tell that to the mother and child that it is not an emergeny. Where did you go to medical school? BTW, do you have, or have you ever had a family or children? You cannot fathom that there are emergencies in the middle of the night where you cannot or would not call an ambulence?

I have two small kids, 3 and 5. I would not take them to the emergency room for an ear infection, even if they have a fever. My wife would take them to the doctor the following day. Emergency rooms are for emergencies, and an ear infection is not an emergency. Now, my wife, being a typical American, will insist on antibiotics to treat the ear infection. Me, being European, will insist that is not necessary, most ear infections clear themselves.

Now, would I pull the child in the trailer with an ear infection to go to the doctor? Certainly not. Living where I live, I'd take the car. If I had another option, like a train or a bus, sure I'd have no problems doing that.

BTW,honestly, you were not trying to shame him into feeling guilty for living where he does? It's a personal choice, and my conscience doesnt tell me anything because of where I choose to live. It's all about choices. I made my choice to live in the city. I paid my dues, I am just as PC as you are. I ride to work, live in the city, blah, blah, blah. But its my choice. I have relatives who grew up on the farm, and were born on the farm. My parents were farmers. They and thier generation raised food for people like you in the city. Should their concience tell them to sell their place and move into the city and join your collective?

I think he/she was trying to point out some consequences of our environment by living in the 'burbs. I live in suburbs too... about 20 minutes away from downtown portland. I can say that I commute by bike pretty much everywhere, no matter how long it takes. I also have a rack for impromptu purchases and whatever else I may pick up along the way (nothing TOO large). I do realize that some people may feel that having a car would be more appropriate, but I do fine w/o one. At that point of the decision (bike vs. car), it's one's choice to own a car or not. I'm not going to bash on anyone for not biking everywhere, and I hope that nobody gets overtly paranoid/defensive if I decide to share my reasons for bike commuting (I will bring up the environmental factor, that's a given).

On another note, being that you've descended from farmers, how do you feel about our country being the world's #1 food importer? I wish there were more farmers out there so our country could thrive and be independent in those means...

BTW, I missed that war, and never was in the military.

hehe... honestly (not to push any buttons), that sounded exactly like what my 22 year vet of a father would say to something like that.

We do work through our differences :)

BTW,honestly, you were not trying to shame him into feeling guilty for living where he does? It's a personal choice, and my conscience doesnt tell me anything because of where I choose to live. It's all about choices. I made my choice to live in the city. I paid my dues, I am just as PC as you are. I ride to work, live in the city, blah, blah, blah. But its my choice. I have relatives who grew up on the farm, and were born on the farm. My parents were farmers. They and thier generation raised food for people like you in the city. Should their concience tell them to sell their place and move into the city and join your collective?
BTW, I missed that war, and never was in the military.

It's wrong to elevate one's personal choice above that of one's neighbors. That's not being a good neighbor. It's being selfish. What if your nextdoor neighbor decided they wanted to build a chicken coop and that this was allowed by city ordinance. They kept 20 chickens there, squawking, smelling up the place, a general nuisance. It's their choice. It's a free country. Would you be happy with that? It's a similar thing when consider one's mode of transpo. Driving your car when you could ride your bike is your personal choice. It's a free country. Not breaking any laws. But then again, you are stinking up my backyard.

My parents were farmers. They and thier generation raised food for people like you in the city. Should their concience tell them to sell their place and move into the city and join your collective?

Certainly not, but the sprawling city could move to your parents, their land could be taken to build more houses, or a freeway. It has happenned in the past.

People who live and work in rural settings are not the problem. People who work in the city, but want to live in the country -suburbs- are the problem. They create sprawl, pollution, worse traffic, increased infrastructure costs and eat up open space and wildlife habitat.

The same invisible hand of personal freedom that fuels our economy (based on personal greed) compels us to use our resources and quickly and efficiently without thought for the future. If our government doesn't encourage good behavior through laws or tax incentives, conscientious people will live responsibly while greedy or unthinking people use up our collective resources. The government already tells us where we can live. You can’t live in this park, that national forest, this wetland, or in the median of this highway. They can take your land to build a highway for the public good.

As it stands right now, owning a car is necessary for many of us. The goal is to get our society moving in a direction where it is a luxury.

We have the right to live in suburbs if we want to. That doesn't mean we can judge you by the choice you make.

People who work in the city, but want to live in the country -suburbs- are the problem. .

I stand vindicated-----SEE I (the hybrid driving, cycling advocate) am the problem because I refuse to move my family into a crowded dirty crime ridden city.


Thank you!

I live on the outskirts of Detroit (THE motor city) and Detroit is a PRIME example of urban sprawl and cars taking over. This area is so NOT bike friendly, it is ridiculous. I do ride my bike to work when I can (I only work 5 blocks away), but have to drive at least 20-30 minutes away to do any safe road biking or to get to a good trail to do mountain biking. The city I live in, which is next to Detroit, is luckily very progressive, however, the mayor and the council always seem to get beat down every time they try to support the creation of bike lanes or public transit systems. It's sad that the automotive industry has created this monster and that people just go along with it. We have so many SUVs in this area and many of our freeways are given nicknames such as "nascar" and "indy 500" because of how fast people drive around here. Although I would rather move away, I have decided to take some steps towards advocacy in this area. The first thing I did was bring attention to the month of May as being National Bike month to one of the city council member's attention. Hopefully, by next year, my city will have a proclamation of the month and maybe have a couple small events to promote biking to work or to run errands or whatever. I like my car and I don't think cars are the problem. I have to agree with what someone else said - that they are overused. If I had access to a subway, I would probably get a cheaper car and only use it when I had to drive far distances or when I had to haul stuff.I am from Detroit. It is a prime example of the destructiveness of our car addiction. Detroit proper is a huge hole in the center of a bagel. Detroit lost almost half of it's population in the last 50 years. The great expressway system (first in the world) lured people out of the city and further and further to the suburbs. Eventually, the jobs followed toe people, leaving Detroit with . . . nothing. Nothing, that is, except crime, poverty, unemployment and no tax base to support even rudimentary civic services. It is the saddest thing to see this once great city with block after block of abandoned houses and burnt out businesses. Ironically this is all due to the automobile, which was brought to you by . . . the city of Detroit.

On another note, being that you've descended from farmers, how do you feel about our country being the world's #1 food importer? I wish there were more farmers out there so our country could thrive and be independent in those means...

What is your source for that? What I've seen says Japan, not the US, is by far the largest food importer and the US is one of if not the largest food exporter. The US is unfortunately heading towards importing more than we export though.

http://www.ca.uky.edu/agc/news/2005/Feb/imports.htm

Out of curiosity--whats with the obsession with cities? If everyone is moving out to the burbs and the jobs are following them, then the burbs will eventaully become the new cities as the old ones die out.

Out of curiosity--whats with the obsession with cities? If everyone is moving out to the burbs and the jobs are following them, then the burbs will eventaully become the new cities as the old ones die out.

dude, start a new thread already.

What is your source for that? What I've seen says Japan, not the US, is by far the largest food importer and the US is one of if not the largest food exporter. The US is unfortunately heading towards importing more than we export though.

http://www.ca.uky.edu/agc/news/2005/Feb/imports.htm

I must've read it wrong (village voice a few months ago), but I'll check again when I got the chance.

Statement:

CARS WILL BE THERE NO MATTER WHAT...GET ALONG WITH THEM!!!

Out of curiosity--whats with the obsession with cities? If everyone is moving out to the burbs and the jobs are following them, then the burbs will eventaully become the new cities as the old ones die out.

Dude, the cities are the great unburried dead of the auto age

Statement:

CARS WILL BE THERE NO MATTER WHAT...GET ALONG WITH THEM!!!

They said the same thing about the horse and buggie.....and the steam engine.... so far, nobody has come up with a viable replacement for fosil fuels.... and once the oil is gone, its gone.

... I refuse to move my family into a crowded dirty crime ridden city.

Dude, Reality check: you are talking about Madison, WI. These adjectives really only apply to the Isthmus.

well yes..but i grew up in milwaukee

Out of curiosity--whats with the obsession with cities? If everyone is moving out to the burbs and the jobs are following them, then the burbs will eventaully become the new cities as the old ones die out.
This is the exact reason I bash cars..This exampifies my beliefs.....Land is too scarce to waste..The waste that is our old cities will befall our suburbs..Guaranteed...You can see it already..
Detroit..Dearborn..Southfield..the decay keeps moving as the population moves....the suburbs move to the exurbs..Productive land is now gone...the suburbs decay. never ending cycling. something now considered progress becomes tomorrows jetsam.
Why do Americans go to Toronto..Vancouver. Why do we marvel at the shrines nationals bestow on their leading cities of London, Paris with its numerous attractions and shrines..Visited by their nationals as the pinacle of their civilizations..... We have to go elsewhere, for what we have not here...
No cities , no culture..and usually industrial decline. Because suburbs would not want such a thing as factories..Only some white collar positions are left and thought of as credible development.As we learn to make nothing.
Washington DC. a disgrace...Get lost and you think you are in Bogota..I blame it all on the car..No wonder we ferry foreign dignatures to places like Camp David or Crawford after just a couple days...
The American tradition of Fleeing the Peidmont after tobacco has ruined the soil or whether it be the empty shells of former factories of Flint..Americans don't stay and face their social problems..They just run and isolate themselves from each other and build their fences. Is that why everyone is so mad..?

I don't hate cars, just stupid drivers.

Koffee

I'd be very interested to read your rather curious definition of whinning. (or ranting). You, and the other anti-car zealots have pointed out that once choice where one chooses to live affects the enviroment, is politicaly incorrect, etc,
BTW, like I said here before, an ambulence uses gasoline and pollutes, and charges 500 every time it rolls. My elderly mother fell in the middle of the night. She lives across town, the police and the ambulence came. My sister got in her car with the internal compustine engine to respond to the house, and the ER. The buses dont run at 3 in the a.m. Would you have her hop on her bicyle and ride across town to see if my mom is ok? Or is she socially irresponsible because she made the "choice" not to buy a house next the my mom?
Who's whinning. So you dont have children, "your choice" Is there a problem with those of us that do? Not PC?

Once again, chicharron fails to reply to what was actually written in the post he's quoted, and appears not to have read it at all. Perhaps you'd like to respond to the words that were actually written.

Sometimes it's fun to be on a bike watching the drivers mess with each other and get aggro with each other and be out of the way.....

Sometimes it's fun to be on a bike watching the drivers mess with each other and get aggro with each other and be out of the way.....

This of course assumes that you are truly out of the way. It's much too easy to be the victim of collateral damage when two or more road ragers are going after one another. :(

I don't hate cars--I hate the effect they have on us when we use them.

This is the exact reason I bash cars..This exampifies my beliefs.....Land is too scarce to waste..The waste that is our old cities will befall our suburbs..Guaranteed...You can see it already..
Detroit..Dearborn..Southfield..the decay keeps moving as the population moves....the suburbs move to the exurbs..Productive land is now gone...the suburbs decay. never ending cycling. something now considered progress becomes tomorrows jetsam.
Why do Americans go to Toronto..Vancouver. Why do we marvel at the shrines nationals bestow on their leading cities of London, Paris with its numerous attractions and shrines..Visited by their nationals as the pinacle of their civilizations..... We have to go elsewhere, for what we have not here...
No cities , no culture..and usually industrial decline. Because suburbs would not want such a thing as factories..Only some white collar positions are left and thought of as credible development.As we learn to make nothing.
Washington DC. a disgrace...Get lost and you think you are in Bogota..I blame it all on the car..No wonder we ferry foreign dignatures to places like Camp David or Crawford after just a couple days...
The American tradition of Fleeing the Peidmont after tobacco has ruined the soil or whether it be the empty shells of former factories of Flint..Americans don't stay and face their social problems..They just run and isolate themselves from each other and build their fences. Is that why everyone is so mad..?

Totally ridiculous.
We are running out of land??

The decay you point to still is inhabited.
Why not point to the real problem.
Overpopulation.

Totally ridiculous.
We are running out of land??

The decay you point to still is inhabited.
Why not point to the real problem.
Overpopulation.


No, fxjohn. Do your homework. Most of the major old cities are now under-populated. They are carrying about half the population they had in 1960.

We are running out of land. Although you may be quite happy with the shack on the lake that you live in, most ex-burbanites demand mcmansion style homes and the roads, strips malls and ecological deteioration that comes with that. They have also depopulated the cities and wrecked their tax-bases, in other words, they get money from the city via their jobs, and then spend it in strip malls in the middle of nowhere and then complain how "seedy" the city has become.

No, fxjohn. Do your homework. Most of the major old cities are now under-populated. They are carrying about half the population they had in 1960.

We are running out of land. Although you may be quite happy with the shack on the lake that you live in, most ex-burbanites demand mcmansion style homes and the roads, strips malls and ecological deteioration that comes with that. They have also depopulated the cities and wrecked their tax-bases, in other words, they get money from the city via their jobs, and then spend it in strip malls in the middle of nowhere and then complain how "seedy" the city has become.


There's no doubt about it.
People are living in way bigger houses than they did inthe 50's.
Usually the ones a paycheck away from disaster.
Just because my house is small doesn't make it a "shack" LOL :)

This of course assumes that you are truly out of the way. It's much too easy to be the victim of collateral damage when two or more road ragers are going after one another. :(

Very good point. A MVA can send vehicles careening off in fast and very unpredictable directions. A cyclist in the wrong place at the wrong time would be in for some serious consequences.

No, fxjohn. Do your homework. Most of the major old cities are now under-populated. They are carrying about half the population they had in 1960.

We are running out of land. Although you may be quite happy with the shack on the lake that you live in, most ex-burbanites demand mcmansion style homes and the roads, strips malls and ecological deteioration that comes with that. They have also depopulated the cities and wrecked their tax-bases, in other words, they get money from the city via their jobs, and then spend it in strip malls in the middle of nowhere and then complain how "seedy" the city has become.

Correct.

Take Baltimore City for example. Baltimore City is about 55,000 acres in size. At it's population high-water mark in the 1950's it had 1.2 million people. It now has roughly 650 thousand people. The population of Baltimore County, roughly 8 times the area of Baltimore City, which surrounds Baltimore City + the population of Baltimore City roughly equal the population of Baltimore City 50 years ago.

Correct.

Take Baltimore City for example. Baltimore City is about 55,000 acres in size. At it's population high-water mark in the 1950's it had 1.2 million people. It now has roughly 650 thousand people. The population of Baltimore County, roughly 8 times the area of Baltimore City, which surrounds Baltimore City + the population of Baltimore City roughly equal the population of Baltimore City 50 years ago.


But not living densely populated is a good thing.
Maybe you guys want to cram in close together in rabbit hutches, but I don't.

But not living densely populated is a good thing.
Maybe you guys want to cram in close together in rabbit hutches, but I don't.

Wrong.

Low-density pupulation (sprawl) which necessitates auto commuting is a major cause of CO2/greenhouse gas polution and global warming. Hope your house is not along the coast or it may be under water by mid-century.

I don't want to confuse you with the facts, but if you have better than an 8th grade education, I suggest reading the last three issues of The New Yorker magazine- the three part article regarding global warming. It's an eye-opener.

Wrong.

Low-density pupulation (sprawl) which necessitates auto commuting is a major cause of CO2/greenhouse gas polution and global warming. Hope your house is not along the coast or it may be under water by mid-century.

I don't want to confuse you with the facts, but if you have better than an 8th grade education, I suggest reading the last three issues of The New Yorker magazine- the three part article regarding global warming. It's an eye-opener.

There's no reason that there can't be extensive bike trails in these sprawled out communities,
nor any reason non-polluting vehicles can't be used exclusively now is there?
bark-bark!

There's no reason that there can't be extensive bike trails in these sprawled out communities,
nor any reason non-polluting vehicles can't be used exclusively now is there?
bark-bark!

Not even the most hard-core cyclist is going to commute 80-90 miles a day round trip to work and back. And who is going to pay for the land for these 'bike trails'?

And what non-polluting vehicles have you seen lately?

I think you must be one of those people who believes the GOP propaganda.

Not even the most hard-core cyclist is going to commute 80-90 miles a day round trip to work and back. And who is going to pay for the land for these 'bike trails'?

And what non-polluting vehicles have you seen lately?

I think you must be one of those people who believes the GOP propaganda.

Well, there is the Prius, and the new Honda that runs on compressed natural gas...available
to any member of the public. If it were me, I'd gladly be in favor of paying forthese bike lanes, and lanes for
slower super efficient vehicles. For commuting myself all i would need is something similar to a smart car.

There's no reason that there can't be extensive bike trails in these sprawled out communities,
nor any reason non-polluting vehicles can't be used exclusively now is there?
bark-bark!


Grab a thinking cap and look at this...

Population served by barely profitable grocery store [#people], Pg
Population density of typical exburb [#people/square mile] , Dex
Population density of urban center [#people/square mile] Durb = 100* Dn, conservatively

Area served by exburban grocery store, Aex = Pg/Dex
Area served by urban grocery store, Aurb = Pg/Durb = Aex/100

Approximate distance to travel to exburban grocery store, rex = (Aex/pi)^1/2
Approximate distance to travel to urban grocery store, rurb = (Aurb/pi)^1/2 = rex/10

Basically, you are looking at an order of magnitude greater distance for an exburban bicycle grocery trip and even longer if you shop at specialty grocery stores. And I am not even considering the fact that urban grocery stores serve much smaller populations.

You're still discounting the fact that we could be driving much more efficient vehicles.
If we are driving less polluting and more efficient vehicles, then what would your beef be?

Take a deep breath...

I am not a judgemental zeolot, I am just pointing out the errors in your reasoning. I have never taken a kid to the emergency room for an ear infection and why would I? It's not an emergency.

And you could not offord to take your wife out to dinner if you didn't have a car? You are kidding? I am sure you are using $20 a week on gas alone. How much in monthy car payments? Insurance? A limo is maybe $75/hour. Sure it uses an internal combustion engine, but it is not going to be used unless somebody orders it and the polution would be more than offeset by not using a car every day.

Most people own cars and are going to continue owning cars and commuting by car, including me. However, that does not mean living without a car can't be done. When I worked for the local government and they provided fleet cars, I commuted by bike for 3 years strait.

It can be done. Private industry and the government need to make getting away from car dependency a priority. Untill that time, we will continue to bury ourselves in smog and clear the hinterlands for housing."I'm sure that you are paying $20 a week in gas."
Dude, read my post. I ride a bicycle to work. And when I do drive, I drive a 1991 Honda 1.5 liter 4-cyl. I do not spend 20 dollars for gasoline a week, let alone a 15 day pay period.

FXjohn,i grew up in small town indiana before i moved out west. these same issues are killing the state. indiana is in decline and car culture is a major contributing factor. along with urban sprawl and the death of the family farm.

FXjohn,i grew up in small town indiana before i moved out west. these same issues are killing the state. indiana is in decline and car culture is a major contributing factor. along with urban sprawl and the death of the family farm.


How do you explain all the new stores and houses if it's in such a decline?
What are you using as your gage?

you're the bad guy(in your mind at least) cause you take offense to every little opinion you disagree with. no ones told you you had to do anything. you chose to interpret things that way. you come off as ignorant and reactionary. in real life you're probably not. why take such offense at other peoples opinions? do you want posters to start judging you now, cause no has up to this point even though you seem to think every "car hater" has. also, no one has come off as an irrational zealot yet.
expressing MY opinion is taking coming off as ignorant or reactionary?? I dont take it personal, however another poster accused me of "whinning", and made comment like "poor baby" when I merly pointed out how unrealistic it would be for working people with families to give up their cars altogether. Is that ignorant.You call me "ignorant" and "reactionary" . I ride a bike. I see the problem of suburban sprawl. I bought a house in the center city. Sheesh. But when I defend the rights of others to live where they choose, and I explain why its virtually impossible for most working people with families, suburbs or city, to not own a car, I am accused of "whining", "poor baby", "reactionary", "ignorant", "taking it personaly", "right wing kook" "politically incorrect", "baby killer", "vietnam vet", "mother raper", "doggie napper",and maybe accused of having overdue library books and dandilions in my front yard.

Being I would guess 10 or more years older and thus more experienced in a lot of life's 'emergencies' and having raised 3 kids, regardless of what the mother thinks, unless a child has a very high fever it's not an emergency. Part of being a parent and a husband is making that distiction.

Nobody is picking on anybody for owning a car. There are almost as many cars in this country as there are people.

However, everyone most likely could do more to reduce driving. Some people could do a lot more. The thread was about hating cars. Cars are just objects. Hating them serves no purpose. Instead, those who value the envirionment and open spaces can and do turn their attention to politicals and also can vote with their wallet and their feet.

If people stopped buying McMansions in the exurbs tomorrow, they would stop being built the next day. If people would stop complaining about paying taxes, we might have better public transportation. If more people would have voted for Kerry instead of Bush, we would not be getting ready to drill for oil in the Alaskan wilderness or be loosing soldier in the middle east. Choices were made. Consequences will be paid.
ear infection was just the first example that I could think of. The point being, there are some emergencies that require having to go the the ER, urgent care or take your wife in labor to the hospital, where an amburlence would not be covered by insurence.
Please, please do not give us a sermon about everyone could do more to reduce driving. This is a bicycle forum. Youre preaching to the choir. For the last time, Iam a bike rider, commute on a bike, etc. walk my daughter to school. blah,But I choose to own a car, because I NEED it to take care of my family ( you can say "poor baby, I dont care, its just a fact). And I enjoy owning a car. So what?

It's wrong to elevate one's personal choice above that of one's neighbors. That's not being a good neighbor. It's being selfish. What if your nextdoor neighbor decided they wanted to build a chicken coop and that this was allowed by city ordinance. They kept 20 chickens there, squawking, smelling up the place, a general nuisance. It's their choice. It's a free country. Would you be happy with that? It's a similar thing when consider one's mode of transpo. Driving your car when you could ride your bike is your personal choice. It's a free country. Not breaking any laws. But then again, you are stinking up my backyard.
Do you own a car? If not, do you feel that I should not? Yes or no.

Certainly not, but the sprawling city could move to your parents, their land could be taken to build more houses, or a freeway. It has happenned in the past.
(not my parents, my uncles. My parents house was in the city, where I was born and raised. Dude, you are preaching to the choir. I am just as concerned about suburbian sprawl. I ride a bike, ect. I own a small one story ranch house in the inner city. But I have friends and relatives who live in the suburbs and the country, I am not gong to critisize them on where they choose to live. My neighbor across the street from me, has five people in their household, and five late model vehilcles 2004-2005 models. My wife drives the car one block to the gym at the community center up the street, to work out. It drives me crazy.