Why Do you hate Cars so much?

[skanking biker]

This is not a rant thread. Ijust don;t get it. I am a pretty avid cyclist. I bike to work as much as possible. I encoutner A HOle drivers all the time, as I do other A hole bikers. What I dont undertsand is why some people here hate anyone and everyone who drives a car. Heck a lot of people who cycle need to drive for work, need trucks to haul things, etc. I often need to drive to pick up clients and get to meetings. I can;t stand the soccer mom SUV syndrome, but i just dont get WHY some people categorically hate anyone who drives. I completely agree that people should try and cut down their drive time as much as possible and that those who buy big gas guzzling SUVs to drive the kids to school are idiots, but what about those that have no choice but to drive, who buy fuel efficient vehciles and drive respectfully. As much as i am a cycling advocate, I think some people go overboard sometimes.

[twahl]

Dude. You're gonna get roasted. I do all the time. The prevailing thought here seems to be that cyclists are free spirits, they are saving the planet, and therefore they are superior by all measures to anyone that drives a car. I could go on, but I won't.

To me advocacy is to advance your cause. Common sense tells us that to do that, you must convince people who don't share your beliefs that your beliefs are valid. Many of the regular readers on this particular forum believe that advocacy means that you take whatever rights you deem appropriate, follow whatever laws you choose, and take up an offensive posture against any that get in your way regardless of their right to do so. Good luck.

edit: you get a mix of this in the commuter forum, a heavy dose in the single speed/fixed gear, and little of it anywhere else.

[BadAssBiker]

I ride. I also ride CM.

[skanking biker]

Well that kinda was one of my questions. If you want to get someone interested in something, you shouldnt go insulting them. By being a little more realistic and dare i say more "tolerant", the cyclign advocates would get more people riding just for fun and once you do that, a good percentage of those get hooked and start commuting. However, for someone who is new to this, attackimg their present habits and them and calling them names is a surefire way to turn them off to the sport.

[spider-man]

It would make cycling a lot more pleasant/safe if there were no cars on the roads.

That said, I don't hate cars or car owners. I'm glad I don't have to have one, but I don't have a problem with people who think they need them.

[khuon]

Some people always have to be against something in order to be for something else. They are the "versus addicts". It goes beyond the car vs. bike. Even in the world of cycling there exists the versus syndrom for just about anything. Campagnolo vs. Shimano, Road Biking vs. Mountain Biking, Steel vs. Carbon Fiber vs. Aluminum vs. Titanium, Threaded vs. Threadless, Tubes vs. Tubeless, Clincher vs. Tubular, Baggies vs. Tight... you name it, there's somebody against it... and someone for it.... and someone against the someone for something.

[skanking biker]

Why cant peopel just accept that some people ride for different reasons. Who cares WHY they ride so long as they continue to do so?

[dedhed]

It kind of reminds me of the gun debates and how most issues in this country are discussed. All you ever here are the two extreme sides of the arguement, when the fact usually is most of the population is somewhere in the middle. As a card carrying NRA member I sure don't need an assault rifle (but it can be fun to empty a 30 round clip on an assault rifle) and don't know anyone who does and wouldn't lose any sleep if they disappeared, but I'll never give up my hunting guns (cold dead hands thing).
I like to ride, did 1100mi last year with some medical off time, I know SLACKER , hope to hit 2K this year, but I'll never give up my vehicles. As a father of 3 who works 22 miles from a 7 am job I try to commute part way as often as possible but have a life which doesn't allow it. Heck I don't own anything in my fleet that gets over 14 MPG and often drive 200 mi a week, but they fit my life situation and are payed for. I commend people who are super green and don't have a car but it doesn't work for me or alot of others.

[skanking biker]

exactly


There's no way i'm gonna commute 20 miles in a friggin blizzard during a Wisconsin winter

[Alphie]

I don't hate cars. I do wish people who _could_ do it, would cycle commute more in my area, it would ease pollution a bit and give them a better outlook on life when they get to work. Which is why I cycle commute in the first place.

[Roody]

I don't hate cars. I hate the way we overuse them.

I don't hate motorists. I hate their lack of imagination and unwillingness to find better ways to get from here to there.

[smurfy]

I'm for "appropriate use" of motor vehicles. If you need a motor vehicle for work, that's fine. I know someone that needs a pickup truck because he has a side business mowing lawns, trimming trees, etc. I just wouldn't use same truck to run down a mile to the convenience store to get a gallon of milk or whatever that can be easily carried on a bicycle. Leave your F350 one-ton dually in the driveway for a change if you don't absolutely need it. It won't use any gas just sitting there.

This isn't about hating cars. It's about conserving resources, saving the enviroment and having a healthy lifestyle. Why can't people seem to understand that?

[dedhed]

I'm for "appropriate use" of motor vehicles. If you need a motor vehicle for work, that's fine. I know someone that needs a pickup truck because he has a side business mowing lawns, trimming trees, etc. I just wouldn't use same truck to run down a mile to the convenience store to get a gallon of milk or whatever that can be easily carried on a bicycle. Leave your F350 one-ton dually in the driveway for a change if you don't absolutely need it. It won't use any gas just sitting there.

This isn't about hating cars. It's about conserving resources, saving the enviroment and having a healthy lifestyle. Why can't people seem to understand that?


A voice of reason I can agree with. I think part of it is the faceless nameless nature of the net that makes bashing easy and painless. My one ton sits most of the time except to plow snow, dump runs, and working trips to the land. I don't like that my full size van everyday driver is a gas pig but it carries the family comfortably, tows the camper, hauls all the stuff we need for our life style. Would I like to have another small vehicle which could handle most of the day to day stuff, sure. Can I afford another vehicle, insurance, maintenance etc. Not really, So for now the van is it. I try in other areas to help, compost food scrap, recycle paper, plastic, all kinds of metals. Bike commute when possible, plant trees, clean up the parkway behind my house, buy in bulk where possible. REpair many things instead of throwing them out, turn off lights (Kids need work here), cut my grass less often and don't fertilize or weed kill and just a list of other ways to conserve or help in my small little ways. Now if I could just quit smoking!
P.S. I wish I bought milk one gallon at a time, Darn teens eat food like it grows on farms or something!

[Chris L]

What I dont undertsand is why some people here hate anyone and everyone who drives a car.

In this part of the world (and having been here for 10 years +), I've come to assume people are stupid per se. This is purely based on my observations of human behaviour over that time period. The fact that most of the people I encounter when cycling happen to be in cars is purely incidental. If they were all on bikes or on foot, I'd feel exactly the same way.

but what about those that have no choice but to drive, who buy fuel efficient vehciles and drive respectfully. As much as i am a cycling advocate, I think some people go overboard sometimes.

We all have choices, we can choose where we live, where we work etc etc. If people "have" to drive, it's because they've made choices that put them in that position. It's certainly nobody else's fault (least of all the cyclist at whom they've just shouted a series of expletives).

Why Do you hate Cars so much?

1. They cost a fortune to acquire -- and lose most of their value remarkably quickly (i.e. as soon as they are taken out of the show room). Not to mention the maintenance costs.
2. They emit noise and air pollution at violent levels.
3. The spaces set aside for them (garages, roads, carparks etc) are just about the ugliest structures ever constructed by mankind, and could be far better utilised with other things.
4. The annual death toll attributable to these things is something that only a good war can compete with.
5. Despite the massive amounts of space set aside for them, and the massive infrastructure created for them (at huge cost), people are still stuck in traffic day after day. The direct cost to the Australian ecomony alone of this is estimated at $11 billion per annum in lost productivity.

That's just the start. I'm sorry, but you asked for it.

That said, I don't resent people who choose to drive. They've made their choice, and that's their business. However, I equally feel no empathy for them either. All I really ask is that they get on with what they're doing, and leave me to get on with what I'm doing. Sadly, many of them seem to have a problem with this. Perhaps the question we should be asking is why do some drivers hate everyone and anyone who rides a bike?

[royalflash]

What I dont undertsand is why some people here hate anyone and everyone who drives a car..//..those who buy big gas guzzling SUVs to drive the kids to school are idiots...

I don´t hate people who drive cars. I have a car myself and use it probably once or twice per week for shopping to take trash to the recycling centre.

I just hate cars themselves, There is so much wrong with them on so many levels I dont know where to start.

Maybe we could focus on the stink and pollution that I have to breath whether I want to or not.

Maybe the carnage- cars are the leading cause of death of children up to the age of four. We KNOW they will die but prefer to label them as accidents unforeseen and unpredictable so we can carry on business as usual. Just so long as it happens to someone else´s child.

Maybe the diseases like asthma and cardiovascular problems caused by cars.

Maybe the noise that never stops.

Maybe the social effects like the disintegration of communities and the theft and enclosure of our public spaces.

I could go on but is that not enough?

[Dahon.Steve]

I'll add a couple of more items that Chris left out.

6. Class Envy --- There are alot of cyclists out there who when you get down to the bottom of it, are just envious for they can't afford a car. It bothers people to see these luxury cars costing 40-70K on the streets when you're riding a used bike worth a fraction of that.

You have to be comfortable with yourself in order not to be envious of that kind of situation. Personally, I'm kind of relieved not having to pay out of my teeth to ride such luxury on our streets. Cars like that cost a bundle. I remember all the problems associated with that kind of motor car from the high repair bills, break-ins, insurance and would will not go back to that again. It was a never ending sea of bills and payments.

I suspect there are many forum members who are living in the city or close by making it very expensive to own a car which is why there is so much dislike for them.

[CommuterRun]

A voice of reason I can agree with. I think part of it is the faceless nameless nature of the net that makes bashing easy and painless. My one ton sits most of the time except to plow snow, dump runs, and working trips to the land. I don't like that my full size van everyday driver is a gas pig but it carries the family comfortably, tows the camper, hauls all the stuff we need for our life style. Would I like to have another small vehicle which could handle most of the day to day stuff, sure. Can I afford another vehicle, insurance, maintenance etc. Not really, So for now the van is it. I try in other areas to help, compost food scrap, recycle paper, plastic, all kinds of metals. Bike commute when possible, plant trees, clean up the parkway behind my house, buy in bulk where possible. REpair many things instead of throwing them out, turn off lights (Kids need work here), cut my grass less often and don't fertilize or weed kill and just a list of other ways to conserve or help in my small little ways. Now if I could just quit smoking!
P.S. I wish I bought milk one gallon at a time, Darn teens eat food like it grows on farms or something!

Actually, it looks like you already have the plan I outlined on another thread recently and am looking to implement this summer. A single vehicle that will do just about everything this family needs a vehicle for, that will be a second vehicle to the bicycles. For us I think a second car, even a high mileage hybrid, would be excessive. :)

[samundsen]

In this part of the world (and having been here for 10 years +), I've come to assume people are stupid per se. This is purely based on my observations of human behaviour over that time period. The fact that most of the people I encounter when cycling happen to be in cars is purely incidental. If they were all on bikes or on foot, I'd feel exactly the same way.


Amen. For many years now I've gone by the assumption that all people are stupid until proven otherwise.

I'm among those who hate cars. I don't "hate" those who drive them, but I do consider most of them to be pretty stupid. I think it's stupid to be commuting 20-30 miles through gridlock every day. I think it's stupid to drive 2 miles to the grocery store. I think it's stupid to be spending billions on cars and roads, but ignoring building a decent public transportation system. The only people who are more stupid than those who are slaves to their cars, are the planners and politicians who allow this to happen.

[Longhorn]

I love my car! I have a Saleen Mustang convertible and I drive with the top down whenever I can, which is a lot, since I live in Texas.

I also love my bike and nothing makes me happier than seeing my bike on the rack on the back of my car, knowing that after I get off work, I'm going to take my bike to the Veloway and ride. :love:

I don't hate drivers (except when they do something stupid and piss me off) and I've always respected riders and I'm proud to now be one. If someone chooses to ride 100 percent, that's great! I live in a place where it is impossible for me to ride to work. I'm not physically able to tackle the hills and I would be trying to ride on a mean four-lane highway with no shoulders. I don't think I've ever even seen a cyclist on this highway, and I've lived out here nearly ten years. The only place I live close enough to ride to is the vet and I don't see how I can get four dogs on my bike. ;)

There's enough "us" vs. "them" in this country without extending it to cars vs. bikes!

[pseudobrit]

What I dont undertsand is why some people here hate anyone and everyone who drives a car..

When I'm suffering, absolutely dying on up a long, nasty climb they pass me and zip by with just a twitch of the right foot.

Then am I envious. Then I hate them. :D

[Alekhine]

Yea, there is too much animosity, definitely.

Since this thread is asking for opinions though: I pretty much hate cars. I admit it. They're annoying and smelly and loud and polluting things that frequently cause death and are often driven by drunks, negligents, incompetents, and raging animals (or scary combinations of the four). There are too many autos. Our dependency on them is unsettling, and the laws and roads are no help. When I bartended for 6 years, I saw literally tens of thousands of people over that time get into their cars after drinking all night. This was without question the norm rather than the exception.

I also really dislike the insidious oil/auto industry/insurance/court/paid parking/DMV/police rackets...it has nothing to do with class warfare, lol (poor people frequently have cars you know!), but it is nice to have the extra cash as a bonus to great health, and I'll not deny that. I'd rather spend that money on a Steinway model M grand piano and a custom Mercian bike than a car.

Cars and all the signs, billboards, and lights and all that stuff have contributed to a mass ugliness in the aesthetics of the places of the world too.

That doesn't mean I hate all drivers unconditionally, btw. I'd have few friends otherwise! Likewise, I yield to the utilitarian uses of motor vehicles despite my dislike of them. If I want a new fridge, I'm not going to be able to tow it on a B.O.B. trailer. I'm going to have it delivered to my house in a truck. Some people cannot ambulate freely, etcetera.

In other words, I'm not going to go criticizing or preaching about it to people everywhere or anything, but I wish people would be far less car-dependent, and giving them up was one of the best things I've ever done in my life. Period.

[patc]

I'm for "appropriate use" of motor vehicles.

I want to second that!

A friend of mine gets a ride to work in the morning from his lover. He then gets picked up at the end of the day. This is so the car is available at home in case the lover needs it. That's 4 car trips per day so one guy can work, when both home and work are within walking distance of a transit station! It they need to go shopping, that's usually a separate trip too! :mad:

And they don't understand why I don't want to get rides from them. :rolleyes:

[cyclezealot]

The first paragraph of Twahl pretty much summarizes the benefits of cycling..But, other than that...
Just take from thread I did after commuting 64 miles to San Diego last week.....1- averaged 19 miles an hour...Could have biked at an equivilant speed...2- Motorists in the rain..Manaical suicidal nut cases... cutting me off in the freeway could have cost us our lives, as others sacrificed them that very day. 3- a tremednous waste of fuel, since it is a worthless transportation system..
But, mostly , I find the behavior of motorists as obnoxious in the car as on the bike...and driving a car is just not fun anymore..
when , I used to see motorists in an auto accident, I used to feel sympathetic..now, they act so crazy and impatient, ..as long as they take no one else out; I often tell myself-they had it coming...a way to lessen bad genes in the gene pool...

[mwickens]

I like cars and bikes. I don't drive a car currently because I just can't justify the cost given how little need I have for one, but I loved driving my BMW 323ci for years when it made sense for me. Even now if cost weren't a factor, I'd gladly have one. They're fast, convenient, good-looking, and fun. As I return to bicycling after a few years' hiatus, I too am alarmed and turned off by this radical anti-car mindset I keep running into. Busybodies who presume to dictate who "needs" a car and how often they "need" to use it should find better uses for their time. If a bicycle or a Prius turns you on, fine, but leave everyone else alone, please. I say if you like it and can afford it, drive your SUV 24-7! (To the environmental religionists having apoplectic fits at this heresy, I say only that I don't accept your dogma that humanity is doomed to oblivion for its fossil-fuel-burning sins.)

[cyclezealot]

Even my non cycling wife..We get caught up in local traffic..She says people here drive like Angelenos...Guess that is a purgaritive reference...again , driving is just not fun anymore...

[boyze]

I wonder how many miles of paved roads would exist for us roadies if the internal combustion engine had never been invented ;)

[cyclezealot]

Boyze...W/0 the internal combustion engine..well, every ride would be like the Paris-Roubaix ride , I predict...that would be fun...and we all might very well be mostly riding moutain bikes with full suspension.

[The Rob]

Has anyone mentioned the urban sprawl made possible by the automobile? Yet another reason to dislike it's influence. Yet, as many have stated, I don't hate all motorists; most are simply trapped in the paradigm. I try at all times to be a courteous and cautious driver, and I doubt that I'm in a significant minority else the carnage on the roadways would be a damn-sight worse. Unfortunately it's easy for some to castigate an entire group for the actions of a few, and this is why some cyclists react with such vitriol to all things automotive. It's difficult to reason with people who insist upon defining themselves by what they despise.

[orange leader]

exactly


There's no way i'm gonna commute 20 miles in a friggin blizzard during a Wisconsin winter

Okay, I'm going to rant, not at you but it's going to start I can just feel it.
first of all, ( and this is not part of my rant) Why not try riding in the winter? Winter cycling is fun. It's like a looong offroad ride. Just watch out for the car drivers that still haven't figured out how to drive in snow after 15 years or more of doing so. Riding through a great blizzard also gives a feeling of accomplishment.

A bike actually get's better traction that the car. I've gone straight up hills that cars are sliding backwards down. It's just the 1 or 2 spots per year where you might loose traction that you have to put your foot down.

the only problems with winter biking i've had are, not seeing the glass bottle burried under the fresh powder, it cost me a tube AND a tire, and a walk home b'cause I only had a fresh tube and a small patch kit. And I miscalculated the location of a curb under the snow and endo'd, in front of a lot of people. Hurt my pride most of all. Oh, and a 3rd, I rode through some deep water where a water main broke, and my foot froze to the pedal, which I didn't realize until i came to a stop and couldn't get my feet off my pedals. They came off when my foot hit the ground as the bike tipped, it's funny, I usually track stand so that's not normally a problem.

Now my rant starts.

I think my 1st paragraph is why I hate the cars on the road. Heck when I'm in a car on the road, I hate the OTHER cars on the road. People drive like a-holes, sometimes even myself, although since i've been biking I drive about 500% better than I did before, calmer, more considerate, not in as much of a hurry (usually). When I'm on a bike on the road, I love to see other bikers on the road. Cars are about hate, pollution, destruction. bikes are about love, cleanliness, and taking care of ones self and the planet.

My head says I shouldn't feel this way, because most drivers aren't complete idiots.

But everytime an a-hole drives by me and tells me to get back on the sidewalk, or throws something at me or cuts me off, or passes me only to block my way seconds later, I go back to hating cars.
Heck I had one big fat guy pull up along side me, tell me to get on the #$% sidewalk (in front of his 12 year oldish kid, no less) and then flipped me off. I told him I had every right to be there. he said His car was bigger and he'd run my ***** over.
Now what he didn't know is that I had been hit already that day by someone, from oncomming traffic, turning left in front of me. I hit my brakes Hard, the bike had been overhauled the day before, it was a tad rainy, my tires skidded out from under me, and I low sided into the car and put a big dent in the side with my foot. My bike and I were fine. I was very cool with the driver because A: he wasn't a jerk about it, and B: I could see his view was totally obscured by other traffic.
But that guy with the kid, threatening me. that's just so symbolic of how most milwaukee drivers seem to be. too many gas guzzling, rednecks with the IQ's of A.D.D. walnuts, and personalities to match. Anyhow, I told him that I'd already "taken out" one car today and I'd take his out too. He must have believed me because he sped off and ran a red light to get away from me.

Ahhhhh, I feel better now. ....I.Qs of freakin walnuts.

[orange leader]

I wonder how many miles of paved roads would exist for us roadies if the internal combustion engine had never been invented ;)
I've heard that the first paved roads were on behalf of the bicycle craze, at least in the U.S. And no matter how many miles we'd have, they'd no doubt be in better condition. and a lot cleaner.

[twahl]

They were largely instigated by cyclists in the late 1800s, but the car didn't come along until the early 1900s, and paved roads were hugely propelled forward by demand from motorists. Whether cyclists started the movement is a point of interest, but to think that they would exist as exstensively without the advent of cars is pretty wishful thinking. Of course...I agree that the relatively low cost and resulting common use of cars has made significant, and mostly bad, changes to our society, but that doesn't change the realities of what we have to deal with in the real world.

Cycling is a small part of the answer, but nobody is asking most of the questions.

[dedhed]

that's just so symbolic of how most milwaukee drivers seem to be.

I must be lucky or something, i really haven't had any real trouble on my bike with Knucklehead drivers as yet. The occasional pull out in front of me and kids in the back seat yelling stuff at me which i can't make out anyway. Of course that also happens in my car. In fact just last month I personally totalled out a jeep that ran a stop sign in front of my plow truck. How you can't see a big old P/U with a yellow light and an 8' blade on the front is beyond me, oh well, he lost, I drove away. I do try to stay off the worst streets like FDL Ave but ride others without incident. I also pay attention, look far ahead, watch the peoples faces and try to anticipate their moves.

In general drivers are way too involved with everything but driving it seems (Me too at times). It also appears they didn't learn the same rules of safe driving I did. I'm also convinced the ignition switch is directly connected to the brain, car goes on - brain off, lots of stupid drivers and accidents waiting to happen.

[cyclezealot]

Rob..Think this is a repeat agreement between you and me...Urban planning class I had..I realized how cars destroy our cities..Cause us to run away to the suburbs where we live in sterile cities..No roots.. Just a vacuous shopping mall.
I believe the urban sprawl has actually divided us as a society and made us less cohesive as a nation..

[brokenrobot]

I don't care for cars because they screw up cities and are rapidly changing the climate in ways that are likely irreversible, as well as doing rather nasty things to our political structures. Plus, it hurts when people hit me with them.

I'll grant that there are activities which require motor vehicles; I just think those activities are vastly fewer than most people seem to think.

[pyze-guy]

I loved my car. I loved being able to go to my cottage after work every weekend. I loved being able to go see friends who lived 100 km away. I liked the fact I could drive my drunk friends home as the DD and not worry about them driving drunk. Loved the fact I was able to drive my mother to the ER at 4:00 am. So because I had a car, liked it and enjoy driving, I and my car should be hated? What about my wife? She likes to do weekend rides with me, but will never feel comfortable or secure commuting 25 km a day to work. Glad people out there hate her because she is a driver. Such self-centered, arrogant judgmental people we have here. Me, I commuted about 300 days a year for 3 years,and about half of the year the previous 5 years, took public transit the rest of the time, when I am at the cottage I use a bike to go to town to buy milk. I do my part when I can, and drove my car when I needed to, or sometimes I just wanted to. Personally I dislike drivers of cars and bikes who ignore the rules of the road, treat other vehichles with distain and are ignorant of what is going on around them. That's it from me.

[kaian]

I live on the outskirts of Detroit (THE motor city) and Detroit is a PRIME example of urban sprawl and cars taking over. This area is so NOT bike friendly, it is ridiculous. I do ride my bike to work when I can (I only work 5 blocks away), but have to drive at least 20-30 minutes away to do any safe road biking or to get to a good trail to do mountain biking. The city I live in, which is next to Detroit, is luckily very progressive, however, the mayor and the council always seem to get beat down every time they try to support the creation of bike lanes or public transit systems. It's sad that the automotive industry has created this monster and that people just go along with it. We have so many SUVs in this area and many of our freeways are given nicknames such as "nascar" and "indy 500" because of how fast people drive around here. Although I would rather move away, I have decided to take some steps towards advocacy in this area. The first thing I did was bring attention to the month of May as being National Bike month to one of the city council member's attention. Hopefully, by next year, my city will have a proclamation of the month and maybe have a couple small events to promote biking to work or to run errands or whatever. I like my car and I don't think cars are the problem. I have to agree with what someone else said - that they are overused. If I had access to a subway, I would probably get a cheaper car and only use it when I had to drive far distances or when I had to haul stuff.

[galen_52657]

Don't hate the car, hate the common mind-set that has permitted the auto to take over our country, to the benefit of the industries that make money from it - auto producers, oil/gas, road contractors, and tire makers and on and on and on....

These industries are veritable tapeworms of the country's economy. Our land use decisions are so ludicrous that our autos will become virtual offices - because we will be stuck in traffic for half the work day! Land zoning - you can't have housing and industry next to each other - makes in impossible for walking/riding or short commutes. Look at the old cities before zoning and the auto - people lived a block or 2 from the plant. Not allowed any more!

Everybody who buys a house 'in the suburbs' and commutes long distances to work and then bellyaches about the backups. Are they stupid? I think so. My company actually subsidizes upper management’s ability to live far from the office by providing a vehicle and free gas as a perk. So, there is no penalty other than wasted time for living 40 miles from the office.

This is a political problem that like so many other political problems will not be faced by out so-called ‘leaders’ until we are out of fuel, out of land and global warming has flooded all the coastal cities…

[skanking biker]

I don't care for cars because they screw up cities and are rapidly changing the climate in ways that are likely irreversible, as well as doing rather nasty things to our political structures. Plus, it hurts when people hit me with them.

I'll grant that there are activities which require motor vehicles; I just think those activities are vastly fewer than most people seem to think.

Well geez..i guess the government should just force all us good little worker bees to live in eggshell boxes in the dirty, stinky city where we can just hope and pray no one robs or kills us.

Some people work in a city but work all their lives to move out of the city to live in a safer quiter place where they can save a family. I see nothing wrong with this. certainyl be who like living in the city are entitled to their preference, but many good people have worked hard ot get out.

As for all the comments abotu how much better we'd be off w/out the internal combustion engine---we also then would not have the means of transporting goods, which would mean we wouldn't have a vibrant economy, which means there wouldnt be so many different types of bikes to choose from or afford.


As i said in my previous comments, I think its stupid and irresponsible to drive an SUV to the corner store 2 blocks away, or to cart your kids 1 mile to school when they could ride their bikes.

I care very deeply for the environment as an outdoorsman and cyclist. However, i also believe in freedom of choice.

Many of you sound like you want the government to confiscate everyone's vehciles and force everyone to live in the city.

While people should have to pay for the consequences of their behavior (e.g. for the pollution caused by driving vehciles), you have no right to tell them they can't drive 20 miles to work in the first instance or choose to live in the suburbs to get away from the poor schools and high crime rates of large cities.

I encourage people to cycle as much as possible, to drive fuel efficient vehicles, to carpool, or commute on their bikes as much as possible. I dislike sheeple to have to follow the automotive industry's mass marketing like a bunch of mindles zombies and dont think about the cost of making 10 one mile trips each day.

However, I am not about to become all self-righteous and categorically condemn those to choose to live a different lifestyle or think as i do. As i said, there are many people to try to do their part but nonetheless need to drive.

If you guys keep insulting those of us who arent as fanatical as you, you may very well find there are less people who advocate cycling and/or alternate means of transportation. I wish i could commute everyday and get rid of my car. However, my chosen profession will not allow it. I try to educate people, not antagonize them.



--"Just because I don't look like you or act like you, it doesnt make me any better or worse"--The Suicide Machines

[billh]

This is not a rant thread. Ijust don;t get it. I am a pretty avid cyclist. I bike to work as much as possible. I encoutner A HOle drivers all the time, as I do other A hole bikers. What I dont undertsand is why some people here hate anyone and everyone who drives a car. Heck a lot of people who cycle need to drive for work, need trucks to haul things, etc. I often need to drive to pick up clients and get to meetings. I can;t stand the soccer mom SUV syndrome, but i just dont get WHY some people categorically hate anyone who drives. I completely agree that people should try and cut down their drive time as much as possible and that those who buy big gas guzzling SUVs to drive the kids to school are idiots, but what about those that have no choice but to drive, who buy fuel efficient vehciles and drive respectfully. As much as i am a cycling advocate, I think some people go overboard sometimes.

On a personal level, there are enough "A hole" motorists, as you put it, at least in my region of the country, to make me leery of ALL motorists. They have the bigger vehicle, and therefore more dangerous when they use it as a weapon, or as a means of intimidation. It's a turf war, plain and simple. It can be as innocuous as squeezing me over to the curb when a column is moving at 5 mph. Some motorists will do it "just because they can". In contrast, when a cyclist wields his/her power, eg. blowing stop signs, weaving in and out of traffic, it is not AS dangerous.

Then on a global level, my distaste for motorists, at least in the developed world, is that the auto is a symbol of all that is wrong with the world. The privileged few using resources vastly out of proportion to their numbers, leaving the rest of the world in poverty. You see, we are all connected in some way. When one person burns fossil fuel unnecessarily, someone else suffers. It is selfishness and greed, plain and simple. What's to like about that? On the other hand, there is plenty to loathe.

[skanking biker]

Well i guess because i studied hard, worked hard, went to college, and did better than my poor, blue collar parents, that makes me some evil, oppressive "privileged individual."

[timmhaan]

i've become very jaded about cars \ car drivers since i've become a cyclist. where i live traffic can reach such extremes that the city can be gridlocked for hours. between all the honking, pollution, noise, danger, etc. i see automobiles bringing down the standard of living for many in the NYC area. thankfully i can live car free here and that's a huge bonus for me, but my life is constantly put in danger by those people who continue to jam more and more cars into the system.

[skanking biker]

You see, we are all connected in some way. When one person burns fossil fuel unnecessarily, someone else suffers. It is selfishness and greed, plain and simple. What's to like about that? On the other hand, there is plenty to loathe.

Who are you to determine what is "necessary." The Russians tried that for nearly a century. When their committees determiend how any shoes were necessary, people went barefoot, when they determined how much bread was "necessary," the people starved. When people were allowed to grow their own food, they ate.

Let each man decide what is "necessary" for himself and make him pay for the consequences of that choice. Maybe I think you owning 3 bikes is not "necessary." Perhaps if i was in power, i'd determine that anyone owning a bike costing mroe than$600 was exploiting the poor massless workers and thus their proeprty should be consifcated. Oh, and what if I decided that NO bikes were "necessary." After all, you have two feet, you can walk cant you? So i guess its ok if the government came and took your bike away then?

I can't believe how many of you "tolerant" "individualists" subsribe to this discredited group-think orthodoxy. All you will do in the end is wind up subjugating each person to your idea of what the "collective" should be like. You will take away everyone's freewill and ultimatly their individuality. This iwll be fien so long as you stay in power, but what until the tables turn.

[timmhaan]

All you will do in the end is wind up subjugating each person to your idea of what the "collective" should be like. You will take away everyone's freewill and ultimatly their individuality. This iwll be fien so long as you stay in power, but what until the tables turn.

we have to figure out what the "collective" wants. the best way to determine that is to voice our opinions. think about it this way: everytime someone votes in a democracy, they are essentially saying that "this is how it should be". by your definition, the simple act of voting takes away someone else's freewill and individuality. we all have to take sides at some point and hopefully we can reach a proper balance when everyone's voices are weighted against each others. that doesn't mean we can't be passionate about what we believe in - we (as the individual) can't be tolerate of everything can we?

[H23]

...
While people should have to pay for the consequences of their behavior (e.g. for the pollution caused by driving vehciles), you have no right to tell them they can't drive 20 miles to work in the first instance or choose to live in the suburbs to get away from the poor schools and high crime rates of large cities.
...



Implicit in the idea that we "have no right" to tell people they can't drive 20 miles to work, is that we are being forced to accept and pay for highways, roads and suburban plans that wreck our environment, make people stressed and pull the plug on the tax base of old cities.

But thats okay... its only a matter of time before today's mcmansions become tomorrow's seedy ghost towns.

[skanking biker]

I have no problem with people expressing their viewpoints

What i have a problem with is peopel categorically condeming those who arent completely like them and thinkign it is ok for force peopel to behave as they do.

So muich of this is group-think. No one respects the individual anymore.

I have a white-collar job, drive a hybrid, but go and have beers at the local tavern rather than martinis at some posh downtown bar. i cycle when possible and drive when i need to. I am neither liberal nor conservative.

Why must people lump themselves into groups and then condem every one thats not in that group? Thats how stereotypes and prejudice develop. Try treatign peopel as individals. Soem individuals drivers deserve condemnation, maybe even most--but dont condemn all who need/choose to drive.

My whole point in starting this was that you could convince a lot more people to cycle by educating them and persuading them to make minor changes in their lives rather than by being all self-righteous and labelling everyone who drives and doesnt subscribe to your radical agenda as a "cager."

[skanking biker]

Implicit in the idea that we "have no right" to tell people they can't drive 20 miles to work, is that we are being forced to accept and pay for highways, roads and suburban plans that wreck our environment, make people stressed and pull the plug on the tax base of old cities.

But thats okay... its only a matter of time before today's mcmansions become tomorrow's seedy ghost towns.


not everyone who lives in the burbs lives in a "mcmansion. There are many people with 3 or 4 kids living in a 1 story ranch trying to make ends meet.


The real problem isnt cars per se, its the choice of fuel and lack of market demand for alternate energy vehciles. You will never stop the production of vehciles using the combustion engine until you noncoercivly persuade people to desire--to demand--an alternative fueled vehcile. Only with a strong enough market demand will the manufacturers shift production and resources to hydrogen, fuel cells and other types of engines. You will never get someone to commute to work on their bike by callign them names and degrading them. Get them to go once, show them how much fun it is/good for their well-being. Make them WANT to commute--dont force them to.

[discosaurus]

How you spend your money is the way you vote on what exists in the world.

Even if the auto-dependent masses never learn what they are doing wrong, the car-free people will still be making their point where it counts--by refusing to finance the spread of car culture.

ETA: I think the real question should be what's NOT to hate about cars?

[skanking biker]

[QUOTE=H23]Implicit in the idea that we "have no right" to tell people they can't drive 20 miles to work, is that we are being forced to accept and pay for highways, roads and suburban plans that wreck our environment, make people stressed and pull the plug on the tax base of old cities.QUOTE]

why cant i choose to live outside the city. I dont happen to like living in the city very much and worked all my life to get out.

[sbhikes]

I think the problem is that we are all trapped in a system that is beginning to fall apart. In the beginning cars brought us freedom, cleaner cities, fun and prosperity. They and the oil economy supporting them are becoming our downfall. Our cities are increasingly unlivable, we're dominated by our autos, no longer set free by them. Being stuck in traffic is not fun, and our future prosperity is seriously in jeopardy as our oil economy is clearly becoming less sustainable.

Add to that our burgeoning populations and the rat-in-a-cage feeling we're all starting to get (can you go anywhere without being stuck in traffic or waiting in some kind of line anymore?) and we're all starting to bite each other's tails and ears off just like pigs in a feedlot.

[lala]

I think the problem is that we are all trapped in a system that is beginning to fall apart. In the beginning cars brought us freedom, cleaner cities, fun and prosperity. They and the oil economy supporting them are becoming our downfall. Our cities are increasingly unlivable, we're dominated by our autos, no longer set free by them. Being stuck in traffic is not fun, and our future prosperity is seriously in jeopardy as our oil economy is clearly becoming less sustainable.

Add to that our burgeoning populations and the rat-in-a-cage feeling we're all starting to get (can you go anywhere without being stuck in traffic or waiting in some kind of line anymore?) and we're all starting to bite each other's tails and ears off just like pigs in a feedlot.

Well said.