Mountain Biking - derailleur system vs interally geared

I was cruising around mtbr.com in study hall today and came across the fantastic reviews for internally geared Rohloff speed hubs. it got me interested in the whole concept of internal gears, neat stuff. not cheap though! So im wondering what you people think about it, if Rohloff was ever to introduce a great internally geared hub that was actually affordable, would you buy it? Or stick with your derailleur and all. THis goes for any of the internally geared (Sachs, Nexus etc.)

are they servicable?

hop on AIM cow.

a) in a second. I hate deraileurs, I am in the process of trying to get one, but its a pipe dream :)
b) gboxx and nicolai use the roholff hub centred on the bike to balance any weight issues
c) I know several people who use the hub and love it. Super T also made the switch, turning down sponsors, in order to run it. I don't know of many complaints, beyond home maintenance sucks if it breaks and it isn't efficient enough for some people.

Beyond roholf, if other companies could match the dh durability of one, I would again buy it in a second. MY biggest complaint of both shimano and sram is all movement and improvements they have made have been lateral. You are still always stuck with dangly bits on the back. That annoys me.

Shimano is (or was) rumoured to be making a dh internally geared hub, one can only hope. Competition can only drive down the price.

are they servicable?

hop on AIM cow.
I would love to but the PSU on my comp has expired on this faitful day. Im on my mothers computer right now which does not have AIM and express isnmt workin g

I love the idea of these internal gears, it seems much more practical than little tiddly bits waiting for a rock to hit it. but it just doesnt seem economical....you can get the x.7 triggers+derailleur for 80 bucks. Rohloff costs around 1k....

I would love to have one, but they are expensive, and dont have trigger shifters.

Arg...yeah that too..I have grip shift.

As for price. In 'theory' peoplel compare it to xtr drive train. or x.0

What's not to like?

Only 2 Drawbacks...

1) increased weight. For commuter and utility bikes this is not a problem at all.
2) you have to buy an entire wheel with your gearing.

As for pricing the Shimano Nexus stuff is reasonable enough. The rolhoff seems to be aimed at a very narrow niche market.

Thats the problem right there. Most dhillers would go internally geared in a second, but companies can't justify making them that strong. People have tried and failed at running nexus.

1) increased weight. For commuter and utility bikes this is not a problem at all.


The rohloff hub doesnt deserve commuter duty. This is an exotic, expensive, rare, intenal transmision hub that should be on a main rig! :eek:

1,000 dollars for a hub is ridiculous and in all honesty, doesn't make much sense. While maintenance and durability would be an issue, I also wonder; what if I want a different gear range? Pardon my ignorance in this matter but do Rohloffs come in 259 different variations to accomodate for peoples need/want to have different gearing?

Besides, Rohloff how durable are other internally geared hubs? I'm about to start building a single speed commuter (endurance training) and was interested to know if there are any internal gear hubs that can withstand abuse past simple road riding? I like the idea of a hub in a commuter application because some days you are just too tired to pedal. However, the days I am not too tired, I'll be beating the thing up pretty bad. Are there any hubs that can compete with Rohloff in terms of durability? Outside the DH school that is...

The rohloff hub doesnt deserve commuter duty. This is an exotic, expensive, rare, intenal transmision hub that should be on a main rig! :eek:


Perhaps. But many people spend most of their riding time on commuter bikes (the commuter is the "main rig"). Some folks like to have posh commuting machines, weight may not be an issue here, but durability and coolness certainly counts.

I haven't heard much good about others.

The roholffs come with potential gearing, I think they only have 7 (8..I forget its been about year since I played with one) gears to actually use once setup. And I think a lot of that gearing is included with the size ring and number of chainrings you use.

http://www.rohloff.de/index.php?p=PRODUKTE/SPEEDHUB

Thats the site for those interested.

The rohloff hub doesnt deserve commuter duty. This is an exotic, expensive, rare, intenal transmision hub that should be on a main rig! :eek:

When you are pedalling for long distances in unknown weather and just want pure durability with no fuss...the roholff would rock,.

What is the drivetrain loss of one versus the other?

I just bought a stumey archer for the commuter I'm building out a 1950's Malvern Star. I dont think the hub would go any type of MTB activity but I never broke any as a kid and I broke enough bikes. Cant compare it to a Rolhoff though.

The Rolhoff is definitely a piece of serious equiptment for a niche purpose- mud, ice, and other extreme conditions. They're ideal for highlands touring or extended backwoods adventures. There's a reason they're so popular with British builders. The Shimano et al versions dont hold a candle to their quality and durabiliy. They're chincy, cheap, and plastic in comparison; the guys on the phone at the Shimano service center dont even recommend standing up while pedalling on them. Get that? They are for your little sisters' five speed cruiser, not for bicycles that will be subject to real wear and tear or heavy drivetrain loads. Furthermore the Shimano hubs have this really weird spacing and a much smaller gear range. You're not saving much weight, if any, by going with the Rolhoff over a derailler system, but if the conditions demand it- say you want to ride across Alaska or something, where a crapped out cassette or a trashed derailler after a fall is not an option- then the Rohloff is the way to go. As far as changing gear ratios, the range of the hub's gears is huge and you could shift the whole range up and down by changing the hub's cog size. But seriously, how many people out there have ever actually swapped out cassette cogs to tune their range. With so many freakin gears, most people probably dont even use the ones they have. Maintenence is supposed to be a non-issue as well- supposedly you just drain the hub and throw fresh oil in once a year. They're machined like swiss watches and the whole system runs in an oil bath. Bottom line... I've looked at both and while I dont see a purpse for a Rohloff bike in my future, if I ever wanted an internally-geared hub, there would be no question about which one to use.

Rohloff speedhub has 14 gears, with 527% total range of gears, evenly stepped in ~13% increments. 527% is pretty wide - if your lowest is 1:1 and highest is 5:1, you've got less range than a Rohloff. Where you choose to put that range is up to you - choose a ring/cog ratio that suits your needs.

Read some of the other forums (touring, I think), and you'll see testimonials of 100k miles on Rohloff hubs, with only maintainence being oil changes.

Not having a dished wheel seems like a big advantage for DHers. I ride more XC and all mountain sorts of stuff, and I see huge benefits in lack of maintainence - there's just less stuff to get muddy. Also, evenly spaced gearing and shifting without having to move the chain both seems like they'd greatly improve the biking experience.

My next mtbike will have a Rohloff; I'll be waiting a while until I can afford it.

I have to say that if I had the money, my dream bike would include a Rohloff hub.

While on the subject of these things, is it possible to still use two or three front rings with them, to further increase the range?

For anyone who is interested, this is a recent thread on MTBR I started a week ago, in rebuttal to some inaccuracies in a recent BIKE magazine article.

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=95409

The added weight is somewhat of a non-issue as you'll see in that post (depends on how much of a gram shaver you might be). Compared to a typical XT drivetrain, you're looking at 600g of extra heft (~1.5 pounds), with a two pound weight bias shifted to the rear axle.

The total range is equivalent to a compact 24 speed drivetrain with an 11-30 cassette. Within reason, YOU get to pick the highest or lowest gear based on the chainring and cog combo you choose. If you want the equivalent of a 34T bailout gear, you can do it at the expense of your top-end gearing. If you want a super-duper road-ready tall gear, you can do it at the expense of your granny gear.

Compared to a Nexus or SRAM Spectro, the Speedhub is a gem. I ride a Nexus on my pavement bike, and my wife has a SRAM on hers. Both have inconsistant gear jumps, both have crap shifting (the Spectro will click at the shifter but won't even drop into a lower gear if there is any load on the pedals), and neither is sealed against the elements.

Efficiency is on par with a clean derailleur system in the higher 7 gears, and about 1% lower in the lower 7.

You can set the Speedhub up with a front derailer and multiple rings, but you'll need a chain tensioner.

Better would be to use an internally geared BB (http://www.schlumpf.ch/sd_engl.htm), and get a whopping 1300% range.

Speedhub, what do you think of the range of bikes currently being made with the roholff 'hub' being used as a gearbox (also a new one which is called g-boxx) centred on the bike. It centres the weight. Right now only high end burly dh bikes seem to use it, but the idea seems universal.

...what do you think of the range of bikes currently being made with the roholff 'hub' being used as a gearbox (also a new one which is called g-boxx) centred on the bike...

It seems like the right direction to head, but I haven't thrown a leg over one to really make a comparison.

Getting the weight centered on the chasis fixes two problem on paper. But the on-trail reality is neither the rear weight bias nor the increased unsprung mass are noticable. The nice thing is that the hub, in its current incarnation, is that it literally drops in to the majority of frames out there without modification.

So as the technology advances, I'll happily embrace it, but in its current form as a hub-based transmission there aren't enough detractors to keep me from loving it.

I would never detract. As I stated, if I had the money and ith a trigger shifter I would gladly switch all my bikes over. Deraileurs suck

are they servicable?

The first question one must ask is; Do they break? If the answer is yes then that would be an appropriate follow up question. The plain truth is, however, that they just don't break, so the question is moot.

My wife and I met a German couple on the N Shore of the Bay of Fundy during a hilly day ride. They were riding bikes with those geared hubs and were doing either around the world or just Canada; I can't remember because we've met a number of these long distance touring folks I get them confused. They loved their hubs and the guy talked excitedly about how great they were.

For myself, I'd never have a geared hub because I don't want to pedal harder just to overcome the extra friction of a geared system. I got my first derailleur bike, a French one, in 1950. I was probably one of very few Americans at that time who had even seen one. What great invention and anything else is a step backwards. I had a Brit 3-speed hub before the French bike.

About the only thing more efficient than a bike now is a steel wheeled rail car. At 2mph: rail car = 0.024 hp/long ton, racing bike = 0.065, car = 0.2 (from Bicycling Science, third edition)

I want bikes to get closer to the efficiency of a rail car. I could also use a train whistle in traffic.

Al

Personally for a dh racer or even a freerider or anyone riding really tech trails. The ability to shift without pedalling surpasses any drivetrain inefficiencies. I still doubt it would have a place on xc bike, but touring and dh racing, imo, would be a godsend to get rid of the deraileur, hanger etc...

From what i have read, if i was into XC/free ride i would save up for one. TOo heavy for my needs though

You know what's funny? Guys who own one can talk till we're blue in the face, then somone repeats a misconception as if it is fact, too heavy, inefficient, whatever. Have you used one? I didn't think so. It's kind of like trying to explain gravity to someone who keeps saying the world is flat...

Very true. There are current tandem, recumbent and time trial record holders who have set these records on bikes fitted with Speedhubs. Kinda throws any weight and efficiency concerns right out the window.

Why a DH rider would need a 527% gear range is beyond me. These hubs are perfect for XC for all but the ultimate of weight weenies. Just got back from a morning ride on my Speedhub equipped Hollowpoint with a brutal 1400' climb of an average 16% grade (and ugh, no, this is not my normal everyday ride). Believe me, if I felt my Rohloff was holding me down on terrain like this I never would have purchased numbers 2 and 3, and would likely be back on derailleurs. Me and my bike finished absolutely covered in mud and the chain looks like it's been baked in cow sh1t, but the shifting never skipped a beat.

i dont know, for now i just cant justify spending one thousand dollars for one hub and i doubt i ever will. When (if) they bring them at least to the price of a chris king, i would look into it

A more realistic comparison would be chris king hub with an expensive cassette and rear derailleur while saving the cost of a front derailleur and a shifter wouldn't it? Still more (too?) expensive but much closer.

Very true. There are current tandem, recumbent and time trial record holders who have set these records on bikes fitted with Speedhubs. Kinda throws any weight and efficiency concerns right out the window.

Why a DH rider would need a 527% gear range is beyond me. These hubs are perfect for XC for all but the ultimate of weight weenies. Just got back from a morning ride on my Speedhub equipped Hollowpoint with a brutal 1400' climb of an average 16% grade (and ugh, no, this is not my normal everyday ride). Believe me, if I felt my Rohloff was holding me down on terrain like this I never would have purchased numbers 2 and 3, and would likely be back on derailleurs. Me and my bike finished absolutely covered in mud and the chain looks like it's been baked in cow sh1t, but the shifting never skipped a beat.

It has nothing to do with the gear ratios ;)...its the elimination of the evil dangly bits off the back haha I could care less about the gear range :)

Also the ability to shift while not pedalling would be amazing in dh. Berms and rough stuff and being able to change gears...wow Once learned I imagine time could be made up quite well

i dont know, for now i just cant justify spending one thousand dollars for one hub and

I can't entirely disagree with you. I'm a cheap bastard at heart, and I sat on the fence for a good two years before taking the plunge.

Even then, I shopped around the the best deal I could find, which due to favorable exchange rates got the price down to $630. I subsidized that by ebaying the new XT/LX drivetrain that came on my '01 NRS.

At the time, I ran the numbers and concluded it would take between three and four years to recoup the expense, based on my projected replacement costs for components of a derailleur based drivetrain.

Since that time, I have seen similar "cost per mile" comparison figures published by Rohloff, but of course these are very non-specific and must vary greatly by type of riding, exchange rates, drivetrain component level, etc., and of course they're slightly suspect since they come from the manufacturer.

But keep in mind these hubs are racking up literally tens of thousands of miles without repair or overhaul.

All the same, I'm still a cheap ass, and only bought #2 when it came included with an $1100 bike, and #3 (my wife's) when I found it used for $500.

All-in-all, I am 100% convinced of the economy of the Speedhub -- my original one has almost 4 years on it with no problems -- but since I know there are deals out there, I would be highly reluctant to pay full retail for one.

But shoot, reality sets in. The dollar is weak, and an XT cassette I purchased for $35 I later sold -- slightly used -- for $65. I suspect Speedhub deals are getting rare, too, as the dollar is underperforming globally.

1,000 dollars for a hub is ridiculous and in all honesty, doesn't make much sense. While maintenance and durability would be an issue, I also wonder; what if I want a different gear range? Pardon my ignorance in this matter but do Rohloffs come in 259 different variations to accomodate for peoples need/want to have different gearing?

Besides, Rohloff how durable are other internally geared hubs? I'm about to start building a single speed commuter (endurance training) and was interested to know if there are any internal gear hubs that can withstand abuse past simple road riding? I like the idea of a hub in a commuter application because some days you are just too tired to pedal. However, the days I am not too tired, I'll be beating the thing up pretty bad. Are there any hubs that can compete with Rohloff in terms of durability? Outside the DH school that is...


The Rohloff offers the SAME gearing range as any typical 3x9 derailleur system. It's simply offered in 14 individual increments instead of 27 increments (most of which overlap between chain rings).

The Rohloff hub requires a yearly oil change. That is all the maintenance required. Apparently, there isn't a single instance of a Rohloff hub breaking or wearing out through normal use (as opposed to hitting it with a sledgehammer). I'm sure they WILL eventually wear out, but they've got some of those hubs well up into 30,000 miles and they are still cranking.

The Rohloff is extensively used by some mountain bikers as an alternative to derailleurs. They report that the thing is far more durable than an XTR. Some riders will point out that when they add up the cost of going through 2-3 drivetrains a year (for VERY active riders) that the Rohloff is a good buy.

a) in a second. I hate deraileurs, I am in the process of trying to get one, but its a pipe dream :)
b) gboxx and nicolai use the roholff hub centred on the bike to balance any weight issues
c) I know several people who use the hub and love it. Super T also made the switch, turning down sponsors, in order to run it. I don't know of many complaints, beyond home maintenance sucks if it breaks and it isn't efficient enough for some people.

Beyond roholf, if other companies could match the dh durability of one, I would again buy it in a second. MY biggest complaint of both shimano and sram is all movement and improvements they have made have been lateral. You are still always stuck with dangly bits on the back. That annoys me.

Shimano is (or was) rumoured to be making a dh internally geared hub, one can only hope. Competition can only drive down the price.

Beware of any "new innovation" from Shimano. Judging from their recent efforts, they'll probably make a "frame fitted" hub incompatible with either g-boxx or nicolai. Than they could force the frame makers to license their interfaces.

I'm not sure exactly what Shimano's incentive would be in terms of replacing easily broken derailleurs for downhilllers. Think about it ... they're making lots of $$$ from guys having to do frequent derailleur replacements. That is, unless Rohloff and G-Boxx ever become a serious threat to Shimano's business models.

What's not to like?

Only 2 Drawbacks...

1) increased weight. For commuter and utility bikes this is not a problem at all.
2) you have to buy an entire wheel with your gearing.

As for pricing the Shimano Nexus stuff is reasonable enough. The rolhoff seems to be aimed at a very narrow niche market.

No, the Rohloff has all the gearing you need. It has the same typical gearing range as a 3x9 drivetrain. It just doesn't have all the overlap in a 3x9 drivetrain.

I haven't heard much good about others.

The roholffs come with potential gearing, I think they only have 7 (8..I forget its been about year since I played with one) gears to actually use once setup. And I think a lot of that gearing is included with the size ring and number of chainrings you use.

http://www.rohloff.de/index.php?p=PRODUKTE/SPEEDHUB

Thats the site for those interested.

14 ... FOURTEEN gears. Those are UNIQUE gears, not overlaps like you get with a 3x9 drivetrain

http://www.rohloff.de/index.php?p=PRODUKTE/SPEEDHUB/Uebersetzungen

http://www.rohloff.de/produkte/speedhub/uebersetzungen/uebersetzungsvergleich.en.jpg

Wilt will you please learn to consolidate your posts? Please?

While on the subject of these things, is it possible to still use two or three front rings with them, to further increase the range?

Well, yes but why??? You would loose a clean chainline which is one of the big advantages. AND you would have to run more chain than you need which would require a larger chain tensioner.

I'm new to mtb'ing but why is it you all say derailleurs suck? is it because they break? easily?


If so, I'm curious how many times a typical mtb'er will go through drailleurs? I mean for the like 1/10 of the price of the Rohloff you can buy like 5 deraillurs an dput them in your toolbox lol.

Beware of any "new innovation" from Shimano. Judging from their recent efforts, they'll probably make a "frame fitted" hub incompatible with either g-boxx or nicolai. Than they could force the frame makers to license their interfaces.

I'm not sure exactly what Shimano's incentive would be in terms of replacing easily broken derailleurs for downhilllers. Think about it ... they're making lots of $$$ from guys having to do frequent derailleur replacements. That is, unless Rohloff and G-Boxx ever become a serious threat to Shimano's business models.

It was a rumour 2 years ago. If it happens, it happens. I don't have high expectations, for the exact reasons you posted.



14 ... FOURTEEN gears. Those are UNIQUE gears, not overlaps like you get with a 3x9 drivetrain


Hmmm ok like I said I wasn't sure. 7 comes to mind. Maybe that was the gear that shifting became crappy (there was also an inefficiency between two middle gears that was pointed out to me)

It seems like the right direction to head, but I haven't thrown a leg over one to really make a comparison.

Getting the weight centered on the chasis fixes two problem on paper. But the on-trail reality is neither the rear weight bias nor the increased unsprung mass are noticable. The nice thing is that the hub, in its current incarnation, is that it literally drops in to the majority of frames out there without modification.

So as the technology advances, I'll happily embrace it, but in its current form as a hub-based transmission there aren't enough detractors to keep me from loving it.


Yes ... but ... the G-Boxx will need more work done to cancel out pedal bob since they've changed the location of the drive chain AWAY from the actual pivot.

I'm new to mtb'ing but why is it you all say derailleurs suck? is it because they break? easily?


If so, I'm curious how many times a typical mtb'er will go through drailleurs? I mean for the like 1/10 of the price of the Rohloff you can buy like 5 deraillurs an dput them in your toolbox lol.

Depends. I go through a lot of hangers. Deraileurs not so much but 3 or 4 a year per 2 bikes. I run short cage deraileurs and they fix some of the problems.

They aren't inherently fragile, but with dangly bits things get caught in them. Either the hanger or deraileur have to brake. Thats annoying. Having nothing on the back to break due to tree, rocks or the suspension bottoming badly, would be awesome :)

but don't you think that takes the fun out of the whole mtb'ing experience? I mean whats next on our bikes, automatci tranny hubs or something lol. Before you know it just buy a Dirt Bike Motorcycle.

For myself, I'd never have a geared hub because I don't want to pedal harder just to overcome the extra friction of a geared system.
Al

Do you like pedalling harder to make up for inefficiencies in cross chaining????

I mean whats next on our bikes, automatci tranny hubs
Bite your tongue HARD














Friggen fraggin Land Rider Piece of **** had to ********** work on the ********************* ************* :crash:

uh you ok? lol

i dont know, for now i just cant justify spending one thousand dollars for one hub and i doubt i ever will. When (if) they bring them at least to the price of a chris king, i would look into it

Hold on a second. You're comparing a $400 hub that just spins to a $1000 hub that replaces the cassette, freewheel, rear derailleur, front derailleur, right and left shifter and two front chain rings???? Put a Chris King hub together with an XTR drivetrain and you've exceeded the cost of a Speedhub.