Advocacy & Safety - Cars colliding while passing you?

I recently started commuting daily, and I've observed on a few occasions that drivers seem to value passing me more than they value their own safety. One good example occurred on the ride home today. I was very visible on this sunny day in a bright blue shirt and orange-and-yellow safety vest, and it was obvious that the cars were having no problem seeing me; most gave a wide berth as they passed. One, however, thought it would be a good idea to pass me while approaching a part of the road that turned left around a blind corner. Just after the car got past me, another car came around the corner, and the one doing the passing had to hustle fully back into the right lane to avoid a collision. Had the car waited another 10-15 seconds, we would have been around the corner, and it could have seen a good bit of road to better assess whether it was safe to pass. This road is somewhat narrow, and it would be almost impossible for a car to pass me and stay fully in the right lane. I was glad the car was fully past me before being forced back into the right lane, otherwise a knee-jerk reaction might have flattened me.

Has anyone else seen this kind of thing? Are people so impatient that they'll take their life (as well as another motorist's and possibly mine) into their hands to save ten seconds? While I know that had a collision occurred it would not have been my fault, I still don't savor the idea of seeing such a thing occur. It got me thinking about what I might do differently to prevent a future problem. Would it be better to take the lane when approaching areas where it not safe to pass me?

all the time in London - despite cyclists being faster in stop start traffic than them

absolutely - practice good VC and be prepared to make a statement to the plod if some eejit can't drive correctly and just has to overtake

If I have a car coming up behind me on a blind corner, I'll tuen my head to let them know that I know they are there, and use an open hand signal to let them know that they should not pass. Once I have a clear view, which due to height and my further down the road position, and can see that they can pass safely, I let them know that it's safe to pass. So far so good. Most drivers seem to appreciate that I'm trying to not inconvenience them, most wave and many mouth "thank you" as they go by.

Yeah, had a guy pull some real bone head move cutting off a car next to him just to get around me once... and we went right to the next stoplight together... he saved no time at all. Eventually we went to the same office complex together... me just seconds behind him.

His move was stupid and agressive and put three people in danger... himself, the motorist next to him and me... all because he somehow felt "threatened" by my presence... apparently.

If I have a car coming up behind me on a blind corner, I'll tuen my head to let them know that I know they are there, and use an open hand signal to let them know that they should not pass. Once I have a clear view, which due to height and my further down the road position, and can see that they can pass safely, I let them know that it's safe to pass. So far so good. Most drivers seem to appreciate that I'm trying to not inconvenience them, most wave and many mouth "thank you" as they go by.

Thanks, I think I'll try that. There are several places on this particular road where passing it a very bad idea.

I remember something from what I was alot younger. I used to ride down to where my dad worked which was about a 1 mile down the road. I would check constantly for a car since I'm super defensive. I saw a car coming and rode my bike off the shoulder and down into the grass near a feild, I was probably about 15 feet off the road but this old lady still slowed down to about 5 miles per hour on the 55mph road and then when she had the chance she drove over into the opposing lane to pass me. I can't remember how old I was, maybe 13 or so.

Are people so impatient that they'll take their life (as well as another motorist's and possibly mine) into their hands to save ten seconds?

Yes.

Considering the way some people drive, I'm genuinely surprised that I haven't seen someone crashing like that.

There was one corner that was slightly downhill and a sharb blind lefthander. I could take the corner as fast or faster than a car safely could, but they'd still try and pass me, and overcooked the corner. Thankfully I never saw a head-on collision, but I can't imagine why.

I see drivers risk their lives to save 10 seconds all the time, and they often don't get where they're going any faster too.

I have had a car Well idiot in a SUV pass me while I was going 25 down a hill right in front of a school and he had to cross a double yellow to do it. I would have been going faster but i was getting ready to turn left. just as I stuck out my arm the fool flies past me.
people can be so stupid it is hard to belive we made it out of caves sometimes.

Indeed they do.

Here in the UK I've had cars pass me within a few inches at 70-80mph on a single lane rural road!

I'm dumbfounded that they believe their 5 second gain is worth another person's life. My usual (polite) thought is "if only I could be that cruel to your child/grand child" but of course my conscience would never permit me to do such a thing.

This is why I am a very determined anti-speeding campaigner.

I have argued that banned speeding drivers should be permitted to use low powered mopeds so that they can appreciate the other side of being hassled by cars.

I have had people do that. There is a road out here(Torrey Pines road for those of you in so cal) that has NO shoulder. It is an extremely narrow two-lane road, with deep sand on each side, speed limit is 25mph. I take tha lane here since riding at 25mph is not a problem for the 3mi or so I am on the road.

People try to pass me all the time. And then they get stopped by the stop light at the end of the road:rolleyes: Goodjob ******, you gained about 1/4 of a second and then the "slow cyclist" caught up to you and passed you. Idiots.

When I was a kid we were walking back from the market (small mall, near the library, elemen. school, and everything else, laid out so everything was walkable) and at the intersection two cars collided, right in front of us.

Being well-trained, responsible type kids, we stood there and stared while the driver in one car (the other one drove a short distance away) who apparently had classic whiplash, sat there unmoving with his head back at a funny angle and his face gradually turned maroon. After 15-20 minutes, we wandered home, but may have stopped here and there and parhaps done some tree climbing before eventually getting home, turns out Mom had heard and heard about the accident (it was a real cruncher) and was worried sick. Moms are weird!

It would have been a big to-do if a kid on a bike had gotten injured but people killing each other in cars and dying right in front of your 9-year-old eyes is normal. This is important to know for any interplanetary visitors stopping by to observe the USA.

I ride through a gulch each day. 35 mph speed limit and people pass me while I am going 43 mph near blind curves. Seen several near misses. Passed an accident 3 days ago that looked like it was an off centered head-on caused by the downhill car improperly passing a bicyclist.. 1 police car at scene, 1 police at top of gulch slowing traffic and fire truck, 3 ambulances heading to scene as I passed.

Several accidents have occurred in the gulch, many fatal. I will be meeting with the City Bus Manager next Wed to revise their bicycle passing procedure and training because of 3 recent serious incidents with buses in the gulch since last November.

On another highway, as I am riding straight going by an entrance ramp which comes from a freeway, Mr. Bozo tries to beat me while I am moving 20 mph, by passing on the right shoulder. He finally realizes that he does not have enough room to make the pass without hitting me, so he hits his brakes hard. The women behind him was not paying attention and slams the right front of her bumper into Bozo’s left rear bumper. Bozo gets forced into right guard barrier to the right of me and the women spins 540 degrees to my left, spinning from the entry ramp and across 2 lanes, stopping facing the wrong direction watching oncoming traffic heading towards her. God and/or the Enterprise force field were with me that day.

I see these dumb-adzes almost daily. There's a classic "T" insection on my route, controlled by a light. Two lane highway with a turn lane from the far lane. I travel through in the morning on the highway across the top of the "T" in the near lane. I always take the middle of the traffic lane at this intersection to keep from getting side-swiped or hooked, and it never fails that some fool, sometimes a series of them, will be in such a hurry that they'll use the on-coming turn lane to pass me.

This doesn't really bother me. I just figure they're trying to be Darwin Award candidates.

Thursday I was lead vehicle in the middle of the outside lane, at a long intersection with no bike lane. The light changes and I pull off. When I get past the intersection the bike lane picks back up, so I move over. As the car behind me passes the driver gives me the palm up, WTF, signal. The next light, 100' up from here, just turned red. This is too good to pass up. I pull up beside him and start talking, so he rolls his passenger side window down. Now I have him.
Me: in conversational tone, "Good thing you were able too pass, since you're in such a hurry. You're really haulin' *****, now."
Him: "F you."
Me: "My what an intelligent response. You must be a real academic."
Him: Screaming now: "F YOU! F YOU!"
He's loud enough the other drivers are starting to look.
Me: Pointing at him and laughing.
Him: Turning the most brilliant color scarlet, "F YOU!! F YOU!!"
Me: Laughing at him and pointing ahead, "Hey, Earnhardt, you're getting left."
Him: Standing on the gas, shoots across the intersection and has to stand on the brakes to keep from rear-ending the car ahead of him.
Me: Still. :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:

If I have a car coming up behind me on a blind corner, I'll tuen my head to let them know that I know they are there, and use an open hand signal to let them know that they should not pass. Once I have a clear view, which due to height and my further down the road position, and can see that they can pass safely, I let them know that it's safe to pass. So far so good. Most drivers seem to appreciate that I'm trying to not inconvenience them, most wave and many mouth "thank you" as they go by.

There is some really good advice in this. It's amazing the power over drivers a cyclist *can* have by employing appropriate lane-taking principles. I might just add that 99% of cyclists have a distinct advantage over drivers -- they can hear a vehicle coming around the blind corner before it can be seen (even with ear buds listening to music at an appropriate level :eek:)

I have employed similar downward-pointing, reverse open-palmed signalling in various country road situations -- it also requires moving right into the middle of the lane. Even climbing hills. You know the odd part? After giving a cursory courtesy wave to the car behind when the oncoming vehicle has passed, I usually get a grateful wave from the driver as they eventually pass me.

Then there are the emotionally impaired who ignore everything, including you and the oncoming driver. In that situation, I console myself with these three points:

(a) I am positioned in the lane well enough that I either have an escape area towards the curb or verge, and that if I do get hit, I am far enough out from roadside furniture not to be jettisoned into it.

(b) I cannot be held accountable for the poor judgment of another driver.

(c) Under the road rules here, it is illegal to pass another vehicle unless it is safe to do so. The fact the vehicle overtaking me may hit another vehicle demonstrates the lack of safety in this manoeuvre.

Wow, there's some good stories here! Makes mine kind of lame. Same as you ansswartzl, I was approaching a blind corner (two lanes, one either way) and the car behind me though it a perfect opportunity to pass...a car came around the corner from the oncoming lane. The oncoming car had to slam on the brakes and the one passing me managed to squeeze past and continue on. The car that rounded the corner had her window down, so as she passed me I heard her saying "b!tch" to the other driver. It was funnier after I got over the fact that I was nearly forced off the road by an impatient sod.
Ah well, at least you're still ok. Near misses (near hits more like) suck, it's when the moronic drivers hurt someone that REALLY get my blood boiling :mad:

I have employed similar downward-pointing, reverse open-palmed signalling in various country road situations -- it also requires moving right into the middle of the lane. Even climbing hills. You know the odd part? After giving a cursory courtesy wave to the car behind when the oncoming vehicle has passed, I usually get a grateful wave from the driver as they eventually pass me.

I almost forgot, I have tried this a few times in Oz, with not much success. However, when I was in England a couple of years back I did a similar thing when riding through the Mendips (Somerset), and got a very positive response from the driver that wanted to pass me. I helped them, they trusted me and nobody was hurt - yay!

This happened to me on my commute home last night.
I was going down the hill on Moravian between Cass and Harrington (for those of you that know the Metro Detroit area) and there is a somewhat blind curve at the bottom of the hill where the road narrows to a bridge over the river. I had to take the lane otherwise I'd get forced to the side where the pavement is crumbled and most likely end up taking a dive into the water. A few cars were behind me and started passing me on the left at the blind curve. One, then two, then the third on started, I could see a car coming in the opposite direction and motioned for the car attempting to pass me to get back in the lane because someone was coming. They did, then when it was clear I gave them the go ahead to get around me. They gave a horn toot, waved, and passed me safely. I caught up with them at the top of the hill at the stop light on Harrington that they were turning left at. The lady at the wheel rolled down her window, gave me a really cute smile, and thanked me for letting her know it wasn't safe to pass, then she thanked me again for letting her know when it was safe.
She said she sees me a couple times a week on this route and was wondering where I had been for the last few days, I told her about my wheel troubles and yadda yadda, and we said our good-byes.
Best experience I have ever had with a motorist to date.

I have employed similar downward-pointing, reverse open-palmed signalling in various country road situations -- it also requires moving right into the middle of the lane. Even climbing hills. You know the odd part? After giving a cursory courtesy wave to the car behind when the oncoming vehicle has passed, I usually get a grateful wave from the driver as they eventually pass me.

I do this frequently, because being ahead of the car and up higher, I can see further down the road. And you're right, many drivers appreciate this. I think a lot of people find piloting a car a big enough challenge, but when you throw the need to pass cyclists into the mix, it overwhelms them (witness all the stories on this thread about botched passes). Giving drivers a hand is a win-win, as long as you don't get an impatient psycho behind you.

If I have a car coming up behind me on a blind corner, I'll tuen my head to let them know that I know they are there, and use an open hand signal to let them know that they should not pass. Once I have a clear view, which due to height and my further down the road position, and can see that they can pass safely, I let them know that it's safe to pass. So far so good. Most drivers seem to appreciate that I'm trying to not inconvenience them, most wave and many mouth "thank you" as they go by.

There are times I'd like to do this, especially on narrow, winding roads. I refrain because I don't want to signal them only to see some nut flying around the corner just as I do.

Often to a driver, a signal shuts off their brain (traffic lights being exhibit A). If the above were to happen, I'd be afraid they wouldn't bother to keep looking for oncoming traffic as they made the passing manoeuvre.

So I let them be responsible for their own choices.

Unsafe, blind-corner passing is something I see nearly every day. The further to the left I ride the more it happens.

me and my dad where cycling on a road we where in the inside lane as the outside 1 was for turning off only. So this car towing a caravan decided to turn in to oncoming trafic in the other lane to get past us. He then realises he wont make it and as if we where even there just turns right in to us (when he was levle with us) pushing us out of the lane, after the repeated use of my dads air horn the idiot slows down to let us get past before going back in to the lane.

I have argued that banned speeding drivers should be permitted to use low powered mopeds so that they can appreciate the other side of being hassled by cars.

Love it.

I think traffic engineers should spend a few days on those things too... just so they can see the results of some of the poor engineering at some locations.

Has anyone else seen this kind of thing?

Oh yes. (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?p=1041723#post1041723)

This happened to me on my commute home last night.
I was going down the hill on Moravian between Cass and Harrington (for those of you that know the Metro Detroit area) and there is a somewhat blind curve at the bottom of the hill where the road narrows to a bridge over the river. I had to take the lane otherwise I'd get forced to the side where the pavement is crumbled and most likely end up taking a dive into the water. A few cars were behind me and started passing me on the left at the blind curve. One, then two, then the third on started, I could see a car coming in the opposite direction and motioned for the car attempting to pass me to get back in the lane because someone was coming. They did, then when it was clear I gave them the go ahead to get around me. They gave a horn toot, waved, and passed me safely. I caught up with them at the top of the hill at the stop light on Harrington that they were turning left at. The lady at the wheel rolled down her window, gave me a really cute smile, and thanked me for letting her know it wasn't safe to pass, then she thanked me again for letting her know when it was safe.
She said she sees me a couple times a week on this route and was wondering where I had been for the last few days, I told her about my wheel troubles and yadda yadda, and we said our good-byes.
Best experience I have ever had with a motorist to date.

Sounds like you could get her phone number. :rolleyes:

I have had people do that. There is a road out here(Torrey Pines road for those of you in so cal) that has NO shoulder. It is an extremely narrow two-lane road, with deep sand on each side, speed limit is 25mph. I take tha lane here since riding at 25mph is not a problem for the 3mi or so I am on the road.

Are you talking about Torrey Pines Road in La Jolla? I know it very well its full length, from Vons at Girard Ave. on the south end to Torrey Pines beach on the north, and can't think of a single section that qualifies as, "an extremely narrow two-lane road, with deep sand on each side, speed limit is 25mph. ".

It's 4 lanes the entire length, almost all of it having either wide outside lane or an explicitly striped bike lane, with but one exception: the narrow lanes at the south end as you go through the village, but there the outside lane is so narrow you just use the full lane by riding in the center. And I can't think of any section that has deep sand, or where the speed limit is as low as 25 mph. As far as I know it's either 35 or 45 the whole way.

Are you talking about Torrey Pines Road in La Jolla? I know it very well its full length, from Vons at Girard Ave. on the south end to Torrey Pines beach on the north, and can't think of a single section that qualifies as, "an extremely narrow two-lane road, with deep sand on each side, speed limit is 25mph. ".

It's 4 lanes the entire length, almost all of it having either wide outside lane or an explicitly striped bike lane, with but one exception: the narrow lanes at the south end as you go through the village, but there the outside lane is so narrow you just use the full lane by riding in the center. And I can't think of any section that has deep sand, or where the speed limit is as low as 25 mph. As far as I know it's either 35 or 45 the whole way.

Have to agree with HH here... with the possible section that is under construction just south of Carmel Valley Road (http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=32.940468,-117.259815&spn=0.004463,0.007445&hl=en). After that it is a different road... Camino Del Mar.

Indeed they do.

Here in the UK I've had cars pass me within a few inches at 70-80mph on a single lane rural road!

I'm dumbfounded that they believe their 5 second gain is worth another person's life. My usual (polite) thought is "if only I could be that cruel to your child/grand child" but of course my conscience would never permit me to do such a thing.

This is why I am a very determined anti-speeding campaigner.

I have argued that banned speeding drivers should be permitted to use low powered mopeds so that they can appreciate the other side of being hassled by cars.

What a great idea. I wish we could institute something like that in new jersey. Everyone speeds here. Everyone seems to be in a rush all the time.

I almost forgot, I have tried this a few times in Oz, with not much success. However, when I was in England a couple of years back I did a similar thing when riding through the Mendips (Somerset), and got a very positive response from the driver that wanted to pass me. I helped them, they trusted me and nobody was hurt - yay!

I'm in Tasmania. The biggest hassles we get (except from rednecks in Launceston) are from Victorian and Queensland tourists. Go figure.

While not directly related to the overtaking part of this thread, there is another factor that puts cyclists at risk -- drivers trying to cut the apex on corners, particularly the ones kerbside.

I find I *have* to be well out in the lane prior to the corner to (a) force the driver to slow (b) to ensure the driver is not quite so easily able to cut the apex where I might be.

Many drivers seems to think, especially on downhills, that once their passenger-side window has passed you, they can do what they like with car positioning, and will cut in to make that apex.

Getting a bit back on topic, it makes entertaining riding seeing a relatively unskilled driver trying to cope with getting back on the correct side of solid centre lines, avoiding the truck or bus that's overhanging the centre line coming in the opposite direction, and trying to get around an off-camber corner that tightens slightly.

As I say, I can't be held responsible for the poor judgment (or, come to think of it, impatience) of an overtaking driver.

Car-handling skills aren't a prerequisite to gaining a driver's licence. They should be.

I have used the reverse palm method several times to stop a car passing me on a blind corner when I can see an approaching car. It works well 95% of the time, and the drivers always give a wave or a (polite) beep as they pass. However riding out into the lane on winding roads is very hit and miss (pardon the pun). Some drivers will slow and wait while the majority will see it as an even smaller gap to fit through. They don't care if a truck is coming the other way, they ARE GOING TO PASS!!!

CHEERS.

Mark

If I have a car coming up behind me on a blind corner, I'll tuen my head to let them know that I know they are there, and use an open hand signal to let them know that they should not pass. Once I have a clear view, which due to height and my further down the road position, and can see that they can pass safely, I let them know that it's safe to pass. So far so good. Most drivers seem to appreciate that I'm trying to not inconvenience them, most wave and many mouth "thank you" as they go by.
I would not recommend hand signals. You know what they mean but the driver may not. It is just a real good idea to let him make his own mind up. You sure don't need him claiming you waived him on when you meant for him to stay back. Just my opinion.

Question? Would you give hand signals if you were in a car?

A car is equipped with signal devices, that is lights. It's also plenty wide.

If, as a cyclist, I can create enough confusion in the mind of a motorist intent of squeezing past me even though I am well into the lane, and have that driver stay behind, I will use it.

Try it before dismissing it.

I would not recommend hand signals. You know what they mean but the driver may not. It is just a real good idea to let him make his own mind up. You sure don't need him claiming you waived him on when you meant for him to stay back. Just my opinion.

Question? Would you give hand signals if you were in a car?

If I were in a car, I would be going the same speed and the driver would be less likely to attempt passing me on a blind curve. As I said, so far, so good. I seem to be communicating my meaning very well and have never had a negative response from a driver while doing this. By letting them know that I am well aware that I am causing them to slow, and that I am looking out for their safety AND trying to minimize the inconvenience to them, they seem to treat me like I have a right to the road.

So many people demand the road, and they repeatedly report here that they are run off the road, shouted at, have things thrown at them, witness accidents caused by a driver's impatience, etc., and I have never had any of these things happen to me when I am working with the drivers. When I have done this on dangerous turns, I am given room, almost always a friendly wave, and occasionally a friendly horn toot. So in my experience, my way works, and ignoring the fact that there's a car wanting to get by doesn't.

A car is equipped with signal devices, that is lights. It's also plenty wide.

If, as a cyclist, I can create enough confusion in the mind of a motorist intent of squeezing past me even though I am well into the lane, and have that driver stay behind, I will use it.

Try it before dismissing it.
I have tried it. It doesn't work. I was accused of almost causing a head on collision. So I don't get involved. I don't motion for a car to pass me either. As far as I am concerned he can sit on my back wheel till he feels it is safe to pass. A car has universally recognised signals and is only intended to let another driver know what you (the car) are doing. They are not meant to signal another driver or advise another driver on what to do or not do. Just not logical.

I think a goodly portion of drivers understand the signal for stop (left arm extended down with palm facing overtaking traffic). Also, it's likely apparent to most that in a blind corner or hill I can see oncoming traffic before they do.

I think warning overtaking traffic with a "stop" hand signal is a good idea. However, I rarely wave them on when it's clear to pass. In our litigous world, I don't want to take on that responsibility.

I think a goodly portion of drivers understand the signal for stop (left arm extended down with palm facing overtaking traffic). Also, it's likely apparent to most that in a blind corner or hill I can see oncoming traffic before they do.

I think warning overtaking traffic with a "stop" hand signal is a good idea. However, I rarely wave them on when it's clear to pass. In our litigous world, I don't want to take on that responsibility.
I certainly would not want to change your way of thinking or cause yet another argument on BF. However I will caution you on making any hand signals because your "good portion" may not include the idiot that claims you waived him on. As soon as you get involved (no matter how good your intention) you have just put yourself in a ligigous situation. really makes no difference what side of your hand was showing. Keep in mind too that your hand down by your side with palm out will almost always be obstructed from view by the cars front fender if he is relatively close.

Anyway - each to his own opinion.

New thread that just popped up. Makes my point exactly.
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=105899
Take care

I certainly would not want to change your way of thinking or cause yet another argument on BF. However I will caution you on making any hand signals because your "good portion" may not include the idiot that claims you waived him on. As soon as you get involved (no matter how good your intention) you have just put yourself in a ligigous situation. really makes no difference what side of your hand was showing. Keep in mind too that your hand down by your side with palm out will almost always be obstructed from view by the cars front fender if he is relatively close.

Anyway - each to his own opinion.

New thread that just popped up. Makes my point exactly.
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=105899
Take care

I don't see any hand signals being involved in that thread. Maybe I am misreading it. The OP said he was about to acknowledge something with his hand, but didn't. I'm not sure I see your point on that one.

body signals. You just can't expect a driver to read your body language. If they were all bikers I wouldn't be a worried but we all know they are not and shouldn't put our trust in a driver knowing what we are trying to communicate.

Rowan you should just move to the US - most drivers here have no idea what an apex is.

... intended to let another driver know what you (the car) are doing...Just not logical. You're right, this is not logical. I thought a signal was intended to show your intentions not what you are doing. Most people can figure out what you are already doing. They just need help in figuring out what you intend to do.

d.tipton

Here in the heart of the great Eastern Establishment, yellow lines, double yellow lines, no sight lines, et all have no meaning to drivers. Everyone seems to have forgotten the rule that states if there is a blockage in your lane, you must wait for traffic coming the other way to clear before crossing over into the oncomming lane. Does not matter if it's a moving cyclist or a stationary postal vehicle. Nobody stops or yields to oncomming traffic. They just pull out and hope nobody is comming the other way or expect the oncomming vehicle to move over and give up part of the lane.

Was out on the bike with a bud and almost had a head-on wreck between two Suburbans when one passed us around a blind turn...that would have been sweeeetttt!!!

Everyone seems to have forgotten the rule that states if there is a blockage in your lane, you must wait for traffic coming the other way to clear before crossing over into the oncomming lane.

I was having a nice quick ride on the flats as I was returning from my hilly training area yesterday.

I got so pissed off at the number of times I was squeezed out by *******s who couldn't slow down to 23mph for two seconds and wait for oncoming traffic to pass. I eventually just started taking the middle of the lane, especially whenever I saw oncoming traffic ahead. I hate to do that to the responsible drivers, but how many times must some jerk going twice the speed limit almost clip my handlebars in one day?