Singlespeed & Fixed Gear - Poor man's hubs vs ...

so we all know about the junky hubs (aka quando, suzue)...

in this corner: IRO/Formula Hubs

in the other corner: Phil, Paul, Campy, DA, Level

what is the difference?

everybody with IRO hubs seems to love them....would they love the higher end hubs more?

is it a feedback issue, efficiency, or is it just a label thing...which i guess is understandable?

thank you kindly,
max

I know there was a huge difference between Surly and DA for me - I thought I was coasting when I put my new wheel on...

I can't speak for the specific hubs you mentioned, but there is such a thing as a wheel that becomes "too nice" for everyday use. I don't know what you use your bike for, but I'd save top shelf hubs for race day only wheels- if for no other reason than a top shelf hub needs a top shelf rim needs top shelf spokes... needs good supple (get shredded on the streets) tires, blah, blah, blah...

If you are locking your bike up, you might want a worry free hub. If you don't want to be afraid of the weather, you might want a low maintenance hub. I don't want my equipment to dictate when and where I ride.

Frankly, when you reach a certain level in quality, you'll feel more of a difference from your tires than your hubs... or even tire pressure.

That's my three and a half cents...

that's an interesting question. i usually follow the 'buy the best you can afford' philosophy, so i went from suzue basics (cr4p) to phils and campys.

i was able to tell the difference easily, but from what i've heard of formula/iro hubs, i'n not convinced i could differentiate between them and phils/campys based purely on the way they ride.

i look forward to hearing other folk's opinions/experiences.

havent ridden the phils, but i bought Phil spec'd bearings for my IRO's. The IRO bearings are not bad, but the Phil spec bearings seem to roll a bit smoother.

I honestly dont think anyone would notice a performance difference in the hub itself. There are too many variables that would affect your judgement. Spokes, wheels, tires, airpressure, spoke tightness road conditions. (EDIT: have to add lacing pattern, faulty lacing could destroy a hub)

However, one aspect off phils that i have noticed that is better, is the overall craftsmanship. I think they are definetly manufactured to higher specification then are the IRO hubs.

more answers like dolface and ostro.....no wheel is "too good to rid," and that has nothing to do with the question...

the best you can afford rule is nice...but i think a lot of it must be in the name..no? i mean you dolface of all people know of the crap thet goes for a fortune on ebay because it is branded campy or has a little clover on it

ive heard as much ranting with joy abour the iro sets as i have for phils...is that because the people who have iro's are reaplcing incredible crap and anything is an upgrade? or are they really basically equivalent?

~me

I've never seen or ridden high end hubs like phils, but in the past 2 days I've played with 3 sets of hubs of varying degrees of quality: sovos (?) crap hubs off a KHS that I just sold, my IRO hubs on my commuter, and the ProMax set that replaced the Sovos'
I would rank them: Sovos<IRO<Promax (and I sure 99% of everyone here would agree)
The difference between the Sovos and the IRO/ProMax is night and day. The bearings felt square and chunky and the hub body itself was crap. Cheap weak threads.
The differences between the IROs and ProMax were more subtle. duh! you say, they're both mid-range hubs.
But I doubt that my riding skill would be able to distinguish between a midrange hub and phil or a DA, or campy.....

hmmm i forgot ProMax...i guess ive been kinda jaded by my basic hub

well, i have a couple wheelsets with IROs, and i am soon building a set with phils.

my IRO hubs have been wonderful. i don't have a bad thing to say about them. however, phils have passed the test of time, and durability is what i'm most concerned about.

the fact that phil now makes cogs is a big plus to me, too. perfect hub/cog/lockring compatibility is a good thing.

I have a wheel with a Pro Max and a wheel with an IRO hub, I can't say I notice any practical difference between them. On the other hand, when I first tossed my old Suzue basic hub for the Pro Max wheel, there was a pretty huge difference.

So the cheapest stuff out there rides noticeably worse but this plebe can't tell the difference between adequate and primo.

I bought Phils because I don't want to have to think about the reliability or performance of my hubs. Good results so far.

more answers like dolface and ostro.....no wheel is "too good to rid," and that has nothing to do with the question...

the best you can afford rule is nice...but i think a lot of it must be in the name..no? i mean you dolface of all people know of the crap thet goes for a fortune on ebay because it is branded campy or has a little clover on it

ive heard as much ranting with joy abour the iro sets as i have for phils...is that because the people who have iro's are reaplcing incredible crap and anything is an upgrade? or are they really basically equivalent?

~me

to be sure, there is a lot of overpriced crap out there, and people who are willing to pay for it based on name alone, and that's the way it is for anything.

riding performance isn't the only variable i pay attention to though, things like durability, useful lifetime, manufacturing processes, and community involvement also figure into the equation.

for frames, since i like classic lugged steel i'm a little constrained, likewise for the campy high-flange stuff.

for modern stuff though, i have a choice, and i chose phils. i ride them almost every day, and i can't think of a reason why i would ever need to replace them. sure,they'll need new bearings at some point, but unless i get into a truely horrendous accident i should be able to ride those hubs for the rest of my life.

also they're made within fifty miles of where i live, and when i called them up to ask if they wanted to donate anything for prizes for the alleycat that judah is putting on (basically, a race put on by one guy with no track record, and a bunch of his friends), they kicked down a bunch of stuff, including a hubset.

that kind of community support is valuable to me, and is one more (non-performance) reason, i'm happy to give them my money, even if i'm paying a premium.

some of the $$$ for phil's goes towards paying people in the US a decent wage for a decent day's work. I think that's a good thing.

I totally agree with Dollface and potus. The money we spend on local manufacturers and vendors goes right back to the community. And, it makes a good thing better!

I don't think the IRO's can be beat for the money. I would put my IRO's against most any hub. I haven't ridden Phil's, but I bet I couldn't tell the difference. I can see however, that Phil's might have a longer lifetime or something like that.

I basically bought Phil for the simple design, bearings, domestic factory/ non-slave labour and reputation for strength and durability. I'm going to leave these things to my kids when I die. I dont understand why/how you could actually feel the difference between hubs though, that doesn't make sense to me. Can others actually tell a difference in stiffness and whatnot on hubs? Are we talking about bearings? Because you can buy as set of Phil bearings for cheaps and slap them right into you current hubset no prob...

I stripped an IRO hub. Besides feeling remarkably smoother, I quickly realized that with a Phil I didn't have to worry about anything going wrong. Riding brakeless puts a lot of strain on your hub, and you don't want to suddenly find out that you can coast. Well worth the extra cash.

The IRO Hubs are nice for the money, but put against any other hub? Not a chance. They are smooth, but not as smooth as Phil, Campy, Dura Ace, Promax, Level, or even Woodman in my experience. As well, try them in a year of regular use and you will see the difference continues.

Please don't misunderstand me though. For the money I would place the IRO Hubs (as well as Miche Hubs) as the best value for the money in the entry level to mid range hubs.

As well as paying for locally built Hubs costing a little more (not only because of salaries, but also because of lack of importing, duties etc), Campy, Phil, Paul, Level Hubs are better. Are they THAT much better, my opinion is definitely yes. Does everyone care about THAT much better? Definitely not.

If EVERYONE wanted the BEST or could afford the BEST, our streets would be lined with sports cars and BMW's and no Echo's and Sunfires!

no wheel is "too good to rid," and that has nothing to do with the question...



Hey, I'm just saying a $300-400 hubset in a $800 to $1300 wheelset? A Formula set for $85? Or a Campy Pista set for over $400? Of course there is a difference. My point is you won't notice the difference nearly as much (if at all) on a street with flat-resistant clinchers as on a track with silk tubulars... that the application of a hub has some influence on the perceived value of its strengths or weaknesses. You ask if the difference is worth it- it may well be worth it to a racer. There truly is a law of diminishing returns when it comes to equipment.

yeah dude...sorry to snap.......i just did not want the thread to tunr noward people talking about their "sweet 5th tuesday of the month track day wheelsets." i definately know what you are saying

as for made in usa....don can tell you...i fully support slave labor...hurah for capitalism!

toodles

Campy and Dura -Ace both use a "loose"bearing in their hubs. Generally these run smoother and a little easier than any stock cartridge bearing hub. Cartridges have a fair bit of hydraulic resistance to them and whether or not you can feel it with your legs, there is a difference. Zipp uses very high end ceramic bearings in their hubs for this reason. You can gewt ceramic replacement cartridges for just about any hub....and these will roll easier than stock bearings. I had an old (80's) Dura-Ace hub that I rode the hell out of when I was on the road and with regular re-packing lasted me for 5 years upon which time I sold it too a German Messenger who then rode it for another 4 years. The biggest downside to the Suzue basic is the smaller bearing size in the fixed side. Why they do this I will never know.

I can't speak for the specific hubs you mentioned, but there is such a thing as a wheel that becomes "too nice" for everyday use....

I have Campy Record on my commuter. :D

I have Campy Record on my commuter. :D

I do too- with Armadillos- and my point is, it is ridiculous. Beautiful hub, but with those tires, on city streets, it feels no better than my Nashbar hub.

switching da hubs for phil woods adds 1.5lbs to ur bike...

I just wanted to add that I don't really see how my IRO's could roll any smoother. If there is a difference between them and other hubs that are $200 more I don't think I'd be able to tell. While it is true that you get what you pay for in a lot of cases, a lot of times the American consumer believes that if they spend more money the product will be far superior. I think what you are paying for on some of the higher end products is reputation. I'm willing to take the gamble with my cheapo hubs that work great and we'll see how long they last. If I get three years out of them I'll be happy, by that point I will probably have the itch to build an entirely new wheelset anyway.

My $.02

I just wanted to add that I don't really see how my IRO's could roll any smoother. If there is a difference between them and other hubs that are $200 more I don't think I'd be able to tell. While it is true that you get what you pay for in a lot of cases, a lot of times the American consumer believes that if they spend more money the product will be far superior. I think what you are paying for on some of the higher end products is reputation. I'm willing to take the gamble with my cheapo hubs that work great and we'll see how long they last. If I get three years out of them I'll be happy, by that point I will probably have the itch to build an entirely new wheelset anyway.

My $.02
Old Story/proverb
A tourist is visiting a third world country. He happens upon a bazaar selling all kinds of native artworks. He spies a nice item and enquires to the shop owner about the price. " 10 american dollars" the shop keeper replies. The tourist wanders down the block and finds the exact same item in another booth. "how much for the widget?" he asks. The shop keeper replies "20 american dollars". The tourist mentions that the same item is available for 10 dollars less down the street, how come it is more here?"....to which the shop keeper replies.."some people want to spend 10 dollars....others want to spend 20.

it really sounds like some folks here are trying to convince themselves that there is no point getting nicer hubs. If you're happy with what you have that is all that matters. But what I am hearing from some is basically, "I don't see how anything could be better than my Toyota" I've never driven a BMW, but really, how good could it be?"

For some folks the differences may not be enough to warrant an extra $50 or $150 dollars. For some it is. For some its status, for some they just like spending more as in Cavernmech's proverb...

What are you guys doing inside on the net anyways? Its beautiful outside! Get out there and ride!

It's freezing ass cold and raining in Boston right now. I am forced to stay inside and play on the interNerd because of this awful soulsucking climate that we have in New England.

crappers! This is the third day in a row over 70degrees in Toronto...mind you thats only 3 nice days all year so far :)

switching da hubs for phil woods adds 1.5lbs to ur bike...

I don't carry my bike enough to worry about things like that.

adds 1.5lbs??? That sounds like a lot.

I checked the Phil site and they show the high flange rear hubs at 417grams
Dura Ace High Flange Rear Hubs are 298grams...

Thats a difference of 119grams.

So what you are saying is that the front PHIL hub must weigh approx. 550grams MORE than the DA Front hub in order for the set to weigh 1.5lbs more than the Dura Ace set.

Maybe I am missing something.

crappers! This is the third day in a row over 70degrees in Toronto...mind you thats only 3 nice days all year so far :)

Then what are you doing on the interWeb?

What do they say?

Cheap - Light - Strong

Pick two.

For hubs we might say Cheap - Light - Strong - Smooth - ( ? )

How nice if we could see the weights of all the comparable hubs.

I have nothing against a light bike.
A light bike feels good for a number of reasons.
My unbelievably cheap Bianchi Pista weighs well under 19lbs and love the way it handles and rides.
I wouldn't want to spend a silly amount of money to get lighter, but between two comparably reliable hubs that cost the same, or close, I would go with lighter.

I think I might do some research on hub weight.

Then what are you doing on the interWeb?

Heheh..I went out for a nice ride this morning, then I had to go home and crash. I need to be at work for midnight (my day job). Believe me, I like you guys, but I'd rather be riding than on the interweb :)

I don't trust riding through the suburbs, so I'm holding out for city riding in Pittsburgh which will begin in a few weeks.

I know phil doesn't need much more advertising, but...

I know that I can run my phils into the ground (not easy to do, despite the fact that I load them up with 300# on occasion (me, bike, cargo), riding in grimy rain, and rarely servicing) and then I can send them in for factory service and basically get a brand new hub for forty bucks.

and new for '05 the offer the "slr: weight reduction option" to drop 10-13% off the hub weight...the high end is getting higher...

switching da hubs for phil woods adds 1.5lbs to ur bike...

Yeah, unless you're a certified baller and you serve up those SLR weight reduction limited edition specials. Bidao! Word up r-dub.
http://www.philwood.com/slroption.jpg

Hub Weights

Phil Wood Low-Flange
Front 225g
Single Fixed Rear 389g

Shimano Dura Ace
Front 203g
Single Fixed Rear (w/lock ring) 298g

IRO
Front 275g
Fixed/Free Rear 330g

Suzue
Carbon Pro Max
Front 264g
Rear 310g
Pro Max
Front 265g
Rear 330g
Pro Max Sealed Bearing
Front 285g
Rear 325g

Zipp
Front 301g
Rear 403g

Campagnolo Low-Flange
Front 204g
Rear 284g

Surly
Front 290g
Rear 385g

Paul High-Flange
Front 285g
Rear 351g

It all depends on what you use it for, right? I'm on my bike five days a week year round, so I don't even bother with cheap stuff anymore. It just falls apart too fast. Formula makes a bunch of different hubs, none of which I would call quality, but they function.

exactly....when I am doing 40-50km a day on my bike for commuting and then bumming around the city in the evenings and my long rides on the weekends...like I want to be messing around with my cheap parts.

But if you're a fair weather cyclist, and don't put a lot of miles on your bike, you might not want to waste the money, because you might not get value, since you're not using it for the same purpose as someone else.

It's freezing ass cold and raining in Boston right now. I am forced to stay inside and play on the interNerd because of this awful soulsucking climate that we have in New England.

Loser! ;) I just got back from a 50 mile spin.

(the first 25 were awesome and I was thinking about what a stud I must be until I turned around and felt that headwind. Aww crap.)

While we are on the subject of hubs, has anyone ever used the Goldtec hubs? I was looking at them the other day and they seemed pretty well built.

Loser! ;) I just got back from a 50 mile spin.

(the first 25 were awesome and I was thinking about what a stud I must be until I turned around and felt that headwind. Aww crap.)

Your devotion to riding is just plain scary. :D

Yeah, I woulda stayed in but I wanted to see how I would hold up for next weekend's Bikes Not Bombs metric (hint: it's not too late to sponsor me!) plus I'm still planning on a ride from here to a friend's family's place way down on the cape in about a month.

Ummm.. on topic and junk: my IRO hub treated me real well all day in the rain today? Or something.

But if you're a fair weather cyclist, and don't put a lot of miles on your bike, you might not want to waste the money, because you might not get value, since you're not using it for the same purpose as someone else.

I suppose I should clarify that I rode my IRO hubs into the ground for 8 hours every day through the entire winter. I really love my Phil though.

Have Surly hubs fallen out of favor without me noticing? Or are they the same thing as some of the other hubs we've been talking about and just relabled? I just did a real quick search and it looks like, price wise, they fall into the bottom rung of the mid range. I suppose you could get a new wheel set with them and decent rims for around $250, no? I have yet to have a single problem with them and they are just as smooth as the day I got them. The folks at the shop where I ordered them still talk about how solid they seemed.

I started upgrading my first fixie with a new rear wheel built around a Surly flip/flop and it was the single most dramatic change I have ever noticed as a result of an upgrade.

(ATTN: Folks at Surly: I now accept Paypal)

While we are on the subject of hubs, has anyone ever used the Goldtec hubs? I was looking at them the other day and they seemed pretty well built.

they are pretty good, solid hubs. I've used rear on my beater for about a year and half, no maintainance needed. the only thing I don't like was the colour, but they make black ones too now.
they also have 46mm chainline, so don't use them with track cranks. it's pain to get right chainline.

Have Surly hubs fallen out of favor without me noticing? Or are they the same thing as some of the other hubs we've been talking about and just relabled? I just did a real quick search and it looks like, price wise, they fall into the bottom rung of the mid range. I suppose you could get a new wheel set with them and decent rims for around $250, no? I have yet to have a single problem with them and they are just as smooth as the day I got them. The folks at the shop where I ordered them still talk about how solid they seemed.

I started upgrading my first fixie with a new rear wheel built around a Surly flip/flop and it was the single most dramatic change I have ever noticed as a result of an upgrade.

(ATTN: Folks at Surly: I now accept Paypal)

My first fixie has a Surly rear hub, and I rode it for a year straight with very little maintnance and no problems. The stock bearings are really smooth and durable. Maybe not quite as fast as others, because they use smaller balls to make them last longer, but it was fast enough for me. I should add that I didn't know much about taking care of them, I never adjusted the lock nuts and I torqued way to hard on the track nuts. The result of this was after the first year, the lock nut snapped in half on one side and everything unscrewed and got all fuxored. I was bummed out, but guess how much it took to get it restored to brand new? $25. That was 4 years ago and I have been riding that thing every day, four Chicago seasons, without a single complaint. I replaced the bearings again at one point, but that's it. I abuse that bike, riding lots of rough stuff and bouncing around, but I never worry about flanges breaking or threads getting stripped. That is why I like the Surly hub. My second hubset is modern DA low flange. They have much lower resistance than the cartridges in my Surly, but it makes complete sense because the bearings are free (no seals) and almost twice the size. With these hubs I have never felt like my hardware was a limiting factor to performance. With this purchase I realized that the difference between a mid range hub and high-end hub IS noticable, and that I really like the advantages that an extra $120 affords. I don't feel as comfortable riding the DA hubs in wet weather, as I know they are not well sealed, but I don't care. That's why I have two bikes.

My first fixie has a Surly rear hub, and I rode it for a year straight with very little maintnance and no problems. The stock bearings are really smooth and durable. Maybe not quite as fast as others, because they use smaller balls to make them last longer, but it was fast enough for me. I should add that I didn't know much about taking care of them, I never adjusted the lock nuts and I torqued way to hard on the track nuts. The result of this was after the first year, the lock nut snapped in half on one side and everything unscrewed and got all fuxored. I was bummed out, but guess how much it took to get it restored to brand new? $25. That was 4 years ago and I have been riding that thing every day, four Chicago seasons, without a single complaint. I replaced the bearings again at one point, but that's it. I abuse that bike, riding lots of rough stuff and bouncing around, but I never worry about flanges breaking or threads getting stripped. That is why I like the Surly hub. My second hubset is modern DA low flange. They have much lower resistance than the cartridges in my Surly, but it makes complete sense because the bearings are free (no seals) and almost twice the size. With these hubs I have never felt like my hardware was a limiting factor to performance. With this purchase I realized that the difference between a mid range hub and high-end hub IS noticable, and that I really like the advantages that an extra $120 affords. I don't feel as comfortable riding the DA hubs in wet weather, as I know they are not well sealed, but I don't care. That's why I have two bikes.


Its important to note that DA bearings are not twice the size of Surly's bearings, but rather The Surly bearings are half the size of ANY other cartridge bearing on the market....What were they thinking!? Surly hubs would be so much better if they just used standard sized cartridge bearings.

Its important to note that DA bearings are not twice the size of Surly's bearings, but rather The Surly bearings are half the size of ANY other cartridge bearing on the market....What were they thinking!? Surly hubs would be so much better if they just used standard sized cartridge bearings.

The stock Surly bearings are Enduro Max, which according to the couple of mechanics I've asked, last longer that the larger faster balls. It makes sense that they are better for rough treatment as well. I think that two years is a pretty good life-span for cartridge bearings. Anyone else have an experience with this? How long do your cartridges usually last?