Singlespeed & Fixed Gear - Which U-Lock?

Well, it is now official... I'VE JUST OPENED MY $30 U-LOCK WITH AN EFFING PIECE OF CARDBOARD....


Look on the bright side. If any of your friends lose their key, you can impress them with your new-found lock picking skills.

Looking at UK websites, I have the impression that OnGuard locks are sold in Europe under the Magnum name at good prices. If you look at the OnGuard website, the photos should help you identify a given model, even if it is sold under a different name. The OnGuard locks offer really good "bang for the buck". But, if you plan to buy only ONE lock during the next decade or two, it might be worth the extra money to buy the best: the Kryptonite New York 3000.

I don't know if the locks sold in the UK are all available in Europe. Cycling Plus picked its favorite UK locks, based on resistance to both manual tools and cutting attacks with power tools:


Axa Secu-City Plus Price: 40 English pounds.

Squire Paramount Plus Price: 50 English pounds.

Kryptonite New York 3000 Price: 60 English pounds

And, the winner of the Cycling Plus 2004 tests:

Abus Granit-X-Plus-54 Price: ????

Note: Other locks from Axa, Squire, Kryptonite, and Abus test at lower levels than their best locks. These are the specific models that did the best in Cylcling Plus tests, using the techniques popular with crooks in the UK.

Well my POS lock broke and I need a new one, unless I want to keep on using this equally POS combination cable lock ... and that doesn't seem prudent. I'm curious if anyone has any experience/opinions on the Planet Bike stuff. MEC carries the Super Guard u-lock in Canada which would lead me to believe it's better probably than the standard Wal*Mart style u-lock, but I can't find any info on whether they've been put through the ringer by any of the independent security rating agencies.

MEC also has the Stocks Locks which look burly as all get go, but I honestly can't justify spending $100 on a lock given that I bring my bike into my office everyday and my home every night. It spends very little time locked up anywhere at all - the grocery store, the bank, random errands - and even then, never for very long at any given time.

So yeah, are Planet Bike locks total junk? I'm somewhat willing to drop the $60 on a Krypto evolution mini if need be, but the $21.50 for a Planet Bike Super Guard is appealing. No one in town stocks OnGuard stuff, which is a drag.

m.

Well my POS lock broke and I need a new one, unless I want to keep on using this equally POS combination cable lock ... and that doesn't seem prudent. I'm curious if anyone has any experience/opinions on the Planet Bike stuff...

Finding a lock that actually will protect your bike is easy. Go to the Sold Secure website and look at the brands that earned "Gold" and "Silver" ratings. OnGuard and Kryptonite U-locks earned Gold and Silver ratings...Planet Bike locks did NOT. Why do bike shops in the USA and Canada continue to sell third-rate locks? If your bike shop does not stock locks with a "Gold" or "Silver" rating, you need to shop elsewhere.

www.soldsecure.com/leisure.htm

I'm gonna have to rage against a certain line of bull**** on this thread.

Don't thank kryptonite for all the good they've done. Yeah, it was nice of them to act to remedy their **** up -- and i don't care who they subcontract the cylinders through, it was THEIR f up. You're kidding yourself if you don't think they're passing the cost directly back to us.

I work at a shop. THis shop carries Kryptonite locks. Well, i guess i should say "carried" as we can't get any new stock from Kryptonite, everything is on backorder with everyone. So we don't have anything but onguard and old kryptonite to sell to our customers. Occasionally, some new locks will trickle in. And our cost has gone up. way up. which pushes consumer cost up. way up.

so don't thank kryptonite for sending us new cylinders. they're still sticking us with the cost.

Well my POS lock broke and I need a new one, unless I want to keep on using this equally POS combination cable lock ... and that doesn't seem prudent. I'm curious if anyone has any experience/opinions on the Planet Bike stuff. MEC carries the Super Guard u-lock in Canada which would lead me to believe it's better probably than the standard Wal*Mart style u-lock, but I can't find any info on whether they've been put through the ringer by any of the independent security rating agencies.

MEC also has the Stocks Locks which look burly as all get go, but I honestly can't justify spending $100 on a lock given that I bring my bike into my office everyday and my home every night. It spends very little time locked up anywhere at all - the grocery store, the bank, random errands - and even then, never for very long at any given time.

So yeah, are Planet Bike locks total junk? I'm somewhat willing to drop the $60 on a Krypto evolution mini if need be, but the $21.50 for a Planet Bike Super Guard is appealing. No one in town stocks OnGuard stuff, which is a drag.

m.




Taking alanbikehouston's lead, I ordered myself and my lady OnGuard Bulldog minis for about 25 bucks each, I think that included shipping. They're available through REI.com, and if you're a member, you save a bit off of their normal prices. A little while ago, they had a sale on all OnGuard locks. I also have the Krypto NYlock, but the thing is a huge PIA to lug around, and now that I have the mini, I prefer using it for its tight clearance on poles. I've kind of decided that you have to pick your battles, and in this case, given that the OnGuard shackles are a bit smaller than the Krypto's, I'll accept the possibility that some thief might come along with a power grinder. But then, the possibility for that is pretty minimal given that my bike isn't worth more than about two hundred bucks. It takes a little while to get used to locking the u-lock, but as I walk around NYC and look at other bikes and their locks, I see that most people don't properly U-lock their bikes, and the ones who are paranoid about it use those large, honking chains. My attitude is that if my lock weighs that much, I'd rather walk or even run.

If you're going to get yourself a smaller U-lock, I definitely recommend the OnGuard bulldogs or pitbulls. They really are very good quality for the buck, and the twin locking shackle is great, too.

Might as well spend that 30 bucks on a highly-rated lock than an unrated one, IMO.

So yeah, are Planet Bike locks total junk? I'm somewhat willing to drop the $60 on a Krypto evolution mini if need be, but the $21.50 for a Planet Bike Super Guard is appealing. No one in town stocks OnGuard stuff, which is a drag.

m.


mcatano, where in canada are you? i was going to assume you were in toronto but thought better of it... if you are, try the urbane cyclist at john and queen (across from the city tv building). they've got a bunch of onguard stuff. they were actually curious to get customer feedback on the locks when i was there. stocks are really good, but make sure you get their u-lock.. i've had their top-of-the-line cable lock snipped like it was nothing. different cable material apparently. motorcycles shops also carry some of the heavier duty abus stuff but that's even more $$$.

OnGuard and Kryptonite U-locks earned Gold and Silver ratings...Planet Bike locks did NOT. Why do bike shops in the USA and Canada continue to sell third-rate locks? If your bike shop does not stock locks with a "Gold" or "Silver" rating, you need to shop elsewhere.

But doesn't that just mean that the company - planet bike or stocks lock or whomever - didn't submit them to an independent agency for testing? I've never heard any complaints about the Stocks flexible u-locks and the company claims to be theft free for 5 years... their lack of a independent rating doesn't automatically make them a third rate lock, does it?

No one's going to have to work hard to convince me that Planet Bike locks are total poo, but I don't believe that the absence of an independent rating equals the failure to meet the standards of that rating. If someone could say, "I had that lock and it was a piece of poop," or "here's a link to a test where Planet Bike locks did terribly," that would be helpful.

As it stands, my in-town options are a $21.50 Planet Bike lock (their best model which sells for $50 everywhere besides MEC), a $100 Stocks or a $58 Kryptonite Evolution Mini. I can order an OnGuard Ultimate Mini U-Lock (which I can't find listed on the OnGuard page - that doesn't fill me with confidence) for $35, but there's still shipping on top of that (which I would imagine will be substantial for something as heavy as a bike lock) - it might still be cheaper than the Krypto though. Living in Canada, ordering from the states is not really an option for something like a lock - duty, GST and all of that stuff adds up incredibly quickly.

The one thing that Planet Bike has going for it that no other company seems to is its dedication to supporting cycling advocacy groups. I would prefer to give my money to them provided I'm not paying for an inferior product. However, an ethical business model isn't going to be enough to make me overlook the fact that their locks stink. So... do they stink?

m.

mcatano, where in canada are you?

Halifax, NS.

My selection is, sadly, limited.

m.

Why do bike shops in the USA and Canada continue to sell third-rate locks?


Because most cyclists in the US and Canada continue to ride third-rate bikes.

Really: the average cyclists rides what, a Trek 800 mtb? Maybe something $40 more expensive, with cheap front suspension? Maybe they rode it to class in college, but since then it's been sitting unused in a garage.

Maybe it's different elsewhere, but for a city with so many bikes, theft is not a huge problem. Thieves look for unlocked / improperly locked opportunties rather than running around with power tools trying to figure out if your lock is rated "Gold" or "Silver".

A properly locked $20 pseudo krypto is good enough for most people, most bikes and most cities. If you ride a moving target, get something better. If you live in Manhattan, Chicago, SF, etc-- same advice.

Otherwise, lock the damn frame and wheel to a solid object and don't leave your bike out in public for weeks on end.

Update: I bought an Abus Sinus for the equivalent of $40. SoldSecure bronze only, but the only better option would have been a very bulky Granit for more than twice that price. I like it very much, the only drawback is that it has the utterly silly and cumbersome 23cm(9inch) shackle. An inch smaller would be so much better, or a 6 inch mini.
Mcatano: the Krypto evolution mini seems to be a good choice if it's bicproof.
BTW, is there any way to access police stats about which locks have been picked/cut how many times in reported bike thefts? That sort of info would be more useful than the ratings we have... What if a lot of locks have crappy tumblers that can easily be picked and so on?

I'm gonna have to rage against a certain line of bull**** on this thread.

Don't thank kryptonite for all the good they've done. Yeah, it was nice of them to act to remedy their **** up -- and i don't care who they subcontract the cylinders through, it was THEIR f up. You're kidding yourself if you don't think they're passing the cost directly back to us.

I work at a shop. THis shop carries Kryptonite locks. Well, i guess i should say "carried" as we can't get any new stock from Kryptonite, everything is on backorder with everyone. So we don't have anything but onguard and old kryptonite to sell to our customers. Occasionally, some new locks will trickle in. And our cost has gone up. way up. which pushes consumer cost up. way up.

so don't thank kryptonite for sending us new cylinders. they're still sticking us with the cost.

First off, while it would be nice to know that nothing i buy will ever become outdated and will always be top of the line, it WON'T. Why aren't you complaining that a 1920 road racing bike won't beat a 2005 carbon blah blah blah? Kryptonite made a product that was very effective. Eventually, someone figured out how to beat the security. THEN instead of just saying "sucks to be you, buy one of our new locks" they said, no we'll replace your lock with a new model current technology for... FREE. who can complain about that??

And as for these bike shops that aren't getting more locks because of supply problems. Yeah a few in Philly kept giving me that schpiel and i found one, rather easily, that carried new locks. In fact, they are getting regular shipments of kryptonites to restock. If your bike shop isn't getting new locks, it could be a problem with your management's ability to run their business.



On a final note, Why is it better to have a New York 3000 kryptonite when you could have the mini? People keep saying, "Oh the 3000 is the best" and then all the reasons they cite also apply to the mini but the mini has the added benefit of providing less space for leverage tools?

On a final note, Why is it better to have a New York 3000 kryptonite when you could have the mini? People keep saying, "Oh the 3000 is the best" and then all the reasons they cite also apply to the mini but the mini has the added benefit of providing less space for leverage tools?

I think the NY3000 is better against power tool attacks. If you don't live in NYC, it's probably not that much of an issue.

m.

I think the NY3000 is better against power tool attacks. If you don't live in NYC, it's probably not that much of an issue.

m.

While i live in a city where seeing messengers lock their rim to their seattube (without locking the bike to an immobile object) is a regular occurence, my question was more directed at why 3000 is better against saws and power tools. It appeared to me when weighing purchasing options that the difference between krypto U-locks was not in their durability. they all appeared to have the same diameter, same materials etc. The size of the U shackle was the only difference i could discern.

Sorry, I misunderstood the question.

m.

I ended up ordering one of the Pitbull Minis, and have had it ffor about a week now. It works really well. It seemse very secure, and the tumbler works very well. Even ordering from the States, it was still significantly cheaper than evo mini from krypto. Highly recommended. Although 5 keys does seems a little excessive.

Celephaiz: theNew York, though bigger which creates problems, is simply a heavier duty lock. Better materials, better construction. It's the most resistant to power tools, which are more effective than leverage anyways. I'm personally very happy with my mini, but I live in a city without sophisticated bike thieves.

First off, while it would be nice to know that nothing i buy will ever become outdated and will always be top of the line, it WON'T. Why aren't you complaining that a 1920 road racing bike won't beat a 2005 carbon blah blah blah? Kryptonite made a product that was very effective. Eventually, someone figured out how to beat the security.


someone figured out how to beat it 12 years before kryptonite did anything about it. and we're not talking weight of a bike or top of the line whatever. we're talking secure or not secure.

as for how our shop is managed, maybe you could point us to your wildly successful business plan, or put us in touch with a distributor who has the locks in stock. we've checked all of ours, and we like to be loyal to them.

someone figured out how to beat it 12 years before kryptonite did anything about it. and we're not talking weight of a bike or top of the line whatever. we're talking secure or not secure.

as for how our shop is managed, maybe you could point us to your wildly successful business plan, or put us in touch with a distributor who has the locks in stock. we've checked all of ours, and we like to be loyal to them.

Once again, kryptonite is doiong everything in their power to update the locks at no charge to you. Name other industries where something like this happens. Its hard, possible, but hard. They have my full confidence that if they find another glitch, they;ll do something about it. Other lock companies don't.

I don't make business plans for bike shops. I also don't think that the shops that have figured out how to get locks will want to share that info. All i'm saying is that someone's doing it. And your shop's inability to do so is costing you, but that doesn't mean that nothing can be done

as for how our shop is managed, maybe you could point us to your wildly successful business plan, or put us in touch with a distributor who has the locks in stock. we've checked all of ours, and we like to be loyal to them.

I have seen the new flat key krypto's in bike shops here, so they DO exist, and someone is distributing them.

They have my full confidence that if they find another glitch, they;ll do something about it.

yeah, a decade after the fact. And have you addressed the fact that they're just passing that cost on?



I have seen the new flat key krypto's in bike shops here, so they DO exist, and someone is distributing them.

really? i bet that distributor has (in my best napoleon dynamite), like, infinity of them that they can sell to every bikeshop in the country.

maybe the locks should go to the highest bidder. that would be great for the industry, and more costs can get passed on to the consumer.

In other news, I spent a chunk of my work day phoning bike shops and found one not far from here that actually carries OnGuard locks. Well la-tee-da. My mini should be here by week's end and for only $10 more than the Planet Bike u-lock.

m.

... their lack of a independent rating doesn't automatically make them a third rate lock, does it?

...I can order an OnGuard Ultimate Mini U-Lock (which I can't find listed on the OnGuard page - that doesn't fill me with confidence) for $35, but there's still shipping on top of that (which I would imagine will be substantial for something as heavy as a bike lock) ...

Perhaps there are some "strong" locks whose makers "forgot" to submit for Sold Secure certification. But, I'd rather use a lock that has passed the "Sold Secure" testing program.

www.soldsecure.com/Leisure.htm

By the way, the locks listed by Sold Secure as the "KryptoLok Plus" are sold in the USA as the Kryptonite Evolution series...the Evolution Mini, at 1.8 pounds, is one of the lightest locks to earn a "silver" rating, along with the OnGuard Bulldog Mini, at 1.7 pounds.

The OnGuard Ultimate Mini U-lock is a fine lock that was discontinued in 2004. A bike shop in my neighborhood still has some - I bought an "Ultimate Mini" just a couple of weeks ago. It is the HEAVIEST mini-lock I have ever used, but its compact size makes it reasonably easy to lug around, and its smaller size makes it impossible to use crooks' most effective "breaking" tool.


If you can get an OnGuard Mini for just $35 Canadian dollars, there is no reason to consider an uncertified lock. Given the "value" of Canadian dollars, that price is a real bargain.

yeah, a decade after the fact. And have you addressed the fact that they're just passing that cost on?




really? i bet that distributor has (in my best napoleon dynamite), like, infinity of them that they can sell to every bikeshop in the country.

maybe the locks should go to the highest bidder. that would be great for the industry, and more costs can get passed on to the consumer.

I don't know what you want from krypto. If you had a lock before, they'll replace it for FREE. So I ask you, WHAT PART OF FREE IS BEING PASSED ON TO ME THAT I SHOULD CARE ABOUT?
second, if you don't have a lock and you want to buy a krypto, there are stores with management and employees that AREN'T jerks who have been able to get their hands on kryto locks. I'm sorry that you can't manage to hook yourself up, but that would be your fault and correspondingly your problem as it is possible to obtain these, just difficult. Lastly, these new locks are not really more expensive than the old one. so whats this talk about passing on the cost?

I don't know what you want from krypto. If you had a lock before, they'll replace it for FREE. So I ask you, WHAT PART OF FREE IS BEING PASSED ON TO ME THAT I SHOULD CARE ABOUT?
second, if you don't have a lock and you want to buy a krypto, there are stores with management and employees that AREN'T jerks who have been able to get their hands on kryto locks. I'm sorry that you can't manage to hook yourself up, but that would be your fault and correspondingly your problem as it is possible to obtain these, just difficult. Lastly, these new locks are not really more expensive than the old one. so whats this talk about passing on the cost?


you're right? why should you care?

the insults work wonders for your argument

I read with interest Sheldon Brown's strategy for locking bikes, and while I can't fault it and fully understand the theory that it's better to have a wheel destroyed than your frame and wheel together. I can't help thinking that here in London, if any little thieving scrote saw a bike attatched by its wheel only, he'd feel compelled to have a go at it. As such you'd end up regularly buying new wheels until the word got around that the system actually does work. Most of the couriers here use the Abus Steeloflex, a rubberized steel cored shackle that fits around your waist. Abus rate them as Level 10 on a scale of 15. I noticed on their website today though, that they now make a Steeloflex Granit with a Level 15 rating. From what I understand, if you register the lock details and your bike details with Abus and it gets stolen, they'll replace both. Nice people.

you're right? why should you care?

the insults work wonders for your argument

and clearly making sense isn't something you are good at. You still haven't answered what cost is passed on to consumers. The free one? or the one that consumers were paying before a recall....

Okay, so I just jumped right on the bandwagon and ordered an onguard pitbull mini. I got the 5008DT option that includes a flex cable for the front wheel.....

Unfortunately, contrary to what has previously been mentioned they are not cheaper here in the uk - 32GBP which is roughly $55 - still waaaaay cheaper than Kypto is here though

Looking forward to ditching my current heavy duty chain lock and using something lighter.....

This thread rocks! thank you to all, i'm learning sooo much :)
Anyways, now that i've buttered you up....you have sold me on the Onguard locks.
I made a post in a different forum called "bone lock". This one seems to be a more appropriate place for this inquiry. Here's the post:
Bike Guard makes a lock called a bone lock (link: http://www.bikeguardlocks.com/bonelocks/index.php)

anybody know anything about it? They say it's as strong as a U lock. The only possible drawback i can see is the 4 "hinges" - i wonder if enough pressure was applied, if maybe the lock would break at the hinge....
Seems interesting to me as it's light and compact. I never liked the idea of carrying around a ulock in a backpack.

also, anybody know of any bike lock review/testing sites?

thanks!
Can you guys/gals please give me your opinion on this one? I can't find any info on it anywhere other than the manufacturer's website - and of course they say its the sh*t....can anyone confirm or deny??

and clearly making sense isn't something you are good at. You still haven't answered what cost is passed on to consumers. The free one? or the one that consumers were paying before a recall....

if you click the little bar on the left, you can scroll up through the thread and re-read posts chuck sheen. keep doing that, sound out the words, and eventually it'll click.

...Why is it better to have a New York 3000 kryptonite when you could have the mini? People keep saying, "Oh the 3000 is the best" and then all the reasons they cite also apply to the mini but the mini has the added benefit of providing less space for leverage tools?

The Kryptonite New York 3000 is the best lock sold in the USA because it can NOT be broken by leverage tools (even though its large size makes it possible to use effective leverage tools) and it is more resistant to cutting with power tools than any other U-lock sold in the USA.

Among "light weight" locks, using a "Mini" size prevents a crook from inserting effective tools. The Kryptonite Evolution Mini is not as strong as the New York 3000 "in the lab", but the Evo Mini is effective "on the street", because its small size makes it impossible to use the most effective leverage tools. But, mini locks are NOT ideal in those very few areas where crooks use power cutting tools.

The "perfect" lock would be a "mini" version of the Kryptonite New York 3000. I've heard that such a lock has been sold in Europe, but I've never seen one in the USA.

The "perfect" lock would be a "mini" version of the Kryptonite New York 3000. I've heard that such a lock has been sold in Europe, but I've never seen one in the USA.


About a month ago, I came across one of these mini-Kryptonite NY 3000 locks here in NY, at Paragon Sports. Anyone reading this from NYC will know the place I'm talking about, and understand why I was totally averse to buying from them at their insane, Manhattan mark-up prices (think the thing was 75/80 bucks.) Looked very nice, but it was still fairly heavy to carry around. The convenience it afforded was in the smaller size, not in the weight. I also tried to find it on Krypto's website, and didn't. I have a feeling that this is one of those marketing decisions that companies make in order to create or encourage consumer demand: put out a new product with some very desirable qualities, but lacking one crucial element in the currently accepted standard, then, when the early adopters have bought into the new technology, begin trickle-selling the 'improved' or 'enhanced' versions.*

max







*Read only if you have the time/are bored/want more geeky info: Black, gel-ink micro-ball pens are the best example of this that I can mention: they came out with these new, quick-drying Gel inks for micro-ball pens, first in varying colors (no black) 0.5 mm sizes, then in black but only in 0.7 mm sizes. About a year after that, maybe a year-and-a-half, they finally put out a black, 0.5mm version. This made people fall in love with the ink but not necessarily in a pen that they used all the time; and, they did not notice the major drawback to it, namely that Gel ink is full of these high-tech emulsifiers runs out much more quickly than the traditional micro-ball inks.

've also seen this in gum, breath fresheners, toothpaste, home cleaning products, batteries and razor blades--many industries that rely on engineering and particularly materials science product development to generate new, improved products.

Bike Guard makes a lock called a bone lock (link: http://www.bikeguardlocks.com/bonelocks/index.php)

thanks!
Can you guys/gals please give me your opinion on this one? I can't find any info on it anywhere other than the manufacturer's website - and of course they say its the sh*t....can anyone confirm or deny??




Hmmm...don't quite get how this thing works, and I'm seeing only round-key locks. The 3000 and Ultra models don't show the actual key entry, but it just looks like it's got a covered round-key lock. I'd like to see one of these in person. Alanbikeh, what do you think?

yeah, the pics must be out-dated, the one i was looking at had the same kinda tumbler as the New Yorker/On-guard locks.

Hmmm...don't quite get how this thing works, and I'm seeing only round-key locks. The 3000 and Ultra models don't show the actual key entry, but it just looks like it's got a covered round-key lock. I'd like to see one of these in person. Alanbikeh, what do you think?



Until this company succeeds in getting even ONE of its locks a top rating from "Sold Secure", the "ART Foundation", or "Cycling Plus", I can't think of a reason to be wondering what type of key they use. Is there is a reason anyone would think about buying a bike lock that is NOT on the "Sold Secure" approved list?

www.soldsecure.com/Leisure.htm

The Kryptonite New York 3000 is the best lock sold in the USA because it can NOT be broken by leverage tools (even though its large size makes it possible to use effective leverage tools) and it is more resistant to cutting with power tools than any other U-lock sold in the USA.

Among "light weight" locks, using a "Mini" size prevents a crook from inserting effective tools. The Kryptonite Evolution Mini is not as strong as the New York 3000 "in the lab", but the Evo Mini is effective "on the street", because its small size makes it impossible to use the most effective leverage tools. But, mini locks are NOT ideal in those very few areas where crooks use power cutting tools.

The "perfect" lock would be a "mini" version of the Kryptonite New York 3000. I've heard that such a lock has been sold in Europe, but I've never seen one in the USA.

so you say its sold in europe? netherlands or germany perhaps? any more info on this elusive lock would be much appreciated as i am jumping over the ocean in july

I'm gonna have to rage against a certain line of bull**** on this thread.

Don't thank kryptonite for all the good they've done. Yeah, it was nice of them to act to remedy their **** up -- and i don't care who they subcontract the cylinders through, it was THEIR f up. You're kidding yourself if you don't think they're passing the cost directly back to us.

I work at a shop. THis shop carries Kryptonite locks. Well, i guess i should say "carried" as we can't get any new stock from Kryptonite, everything is on backorder with everyone. So we don't have anything but onguard and old kryptonite to sell to our customers. Occasionally, some new locks will trickle in. And our cost has gone up. way up. which pushes consumer cost up. way up.

so don't thank kryptonite for sending us new cylinders. they're still sticking us with the cost.

this is the closest i could fine to a half-baked explanation for what cost is being passed on to the consumer. Near as I can tell, your bike shop sucks so they charge a lot more to their customers. Economics would dictate that your shop is wasting its time because there are shops with clearly better business plans that are underselling you if you are, in fact, telling the truth.

btw. <- is left.....-> is right. The scroll bar is on the -----------RIGHT------------>

so you say its sold in europe? netherlands or germany perhaps? any more info on this elusive lock would be much appreciated as i am jumping over the ocean in july

I would gladly buy the New York 3000 if it were a mini.

I would gladly buy the New York 3000 if it were a mini.

thats what i'm sayin... a model name would be useful... is it actually a krypto or something legitamately like one (according to people who can be trusted, not the company)

this is the closest i could fine to a half-baked explanation for what cost is being passed on to the consumer. Near as I can tell, your bike shop sucks so they charge a lot more to their customers. Economics would dictate that your shop is wasting its time because there are shops with clearly better business plans that are underselling you if you are, in fact, telling the truth.

now you're martin sheen, playing jed bartlett, with a nobel in economics. i guess the philly shops just love to lose money, so despite kryptonite's wholesale markup, they've continued to charge the same prices. Cool.

But does an LBS in columbus compete against and LBS in philly? In boston? So how can they be underselling us. we charge, on the average, the same or less than the other bike shops in town. But then again, none of them have the new krypto's either, so what's that tell us?

telling the truth about what? truthfully, you're still reaching. try harder. i won't be listening (/ignore)

btw. <- is left.....-> is right. The scroll bar is on the -----------RIGHT------------>


Unless it's the actual computer who's doing the typing LOL. HAL, is that you?

:D