View Full Version : hit at 35mph, who's at fault? You decide . . .
This thread appeared on the local listserv, frequented mainly by racers. Evidently, this was a residential street and the cyclist, a 16 year old up and coming racer describe it as follows:
link (http://stlbiking.com/ivb/index.php?act=ST&f=20&t=9851&)
"thanks for everyone concern. yeah it sucked i was hammering doing about 30-35 and he juss pulls out i slam on my breaks to try to slow down a little but i didnt help i hit his driver side and tumble into the other lanes but no other cars were coming thank god. it really pissed me off that he didnt even ask if i was ok and start yelling at me. ill up date on what the insurance cmpany says about my bike. "
Who is at fault?
Dr. Moto
05-10-05, 09:03 AM
Not a lot of details available, but from what's there, it sounds like the driver is at fault. An air horn might have come in handy in this situation.
30-35 mph??? No driver expects a bicycle to be going that fast. I wonder what the speed limit was, what his lane position was, etc.
Eggplant Jeff
05-10-05, 09:06 AM
Not enough data. Where did the driver "just pull out" from? Most residential streets have speed limits lower than 35 (They're all 25 or under around here), so that would mean he was speeding, definitely a contributing factor to the accident.
Also it is up to the vehicle operator to operate at a safe speed given the conditions and stopping distances of the vehicle. If his brakes are not very effective, 35 in a residential area seems extremely excessive.
The driver should have looked, but it is possible he DID look and did not believe the biker would arrive before he was clear out on the road, or did not see the biker. In that case if the biker was NOT speeding it would be the driver's fault.
StanSeven
05-10-05, 09:13 AM
We all know many drivers don't "see" cars. Add speed to that and it's easy to understand how this happened.
I was riding along at 27-28 mph a few days ago. A car in front was going very slow and suddenly stopped to look for an entry to a parking lot along side the road. The only way I avoided hitting the car was to go partially around the back of the car. Any my brakes are extremely effective
Dr. Moto
05-10-05, 09:27 AM
We all know many drivers don't "see" cars. Add speed to that and it's easy to understand how this happened.
I was riding along at 27-28 mph a few days ago. A car in front was going very slow and suddenly stopped to look for an entry to a parking lot along side the road. The only way I avoided hitting the car was to go partially around the back of the car. Any my brakes are extremely effective
Sorry, but in your situation, the driver wasn't obligated to see you if you were behind him. You're obligated to follow at a safe distance for your stopping ability.
Seems similar to a driver looking rite at you, but not actualy seeing you. Car drivers "expect" to see cars and trucks.
When cycling at speed, I try to make myself as visible as possible. For example, if I am cycling close to or at the posted speed limit, I will take the lane. This makes me more visible to traffic potentially pulling out into the lane. This also gives me a few more "outs" in the event I have to emergency move (stop, swerve etc.). I find this particularly helpfull during fast descents (usually on a fitness ride/tour vs a commute my max speed from saturday was 44mph). Bright clothing is also helpfull to really be seen-I like yellows, oranges, and reds.
Vehicle drivers pulling out from a stop, signed or implied (ie driveways), must make sure that the lane is clear (and sidewalk, in the case of driveways). Some states (SC according to my father), even require that a vehicle pulling out must be able to attain the speed limit, without causing traffic allready in the lane hindrance. In other words, in that state, a pulling out vehicle could be "rear ended", and the crash would be no fault of the following driver.
The example from the OP seems to be a left hook (stopped cross traffic, turning left), where the driver did not verify that the lane was clear for him/her to make there turn.
Eggplant Jeff
05-10-05, 09:36 AM
I'd have to agree with Dr. Moto, Stan. Every vehicle operator is required to maintain a safe following distance that depends on how fast YOUR vehicle can stop. I just watched some guy NOT get out of a ticket in traffic court using the exact same excuse (The woman in front stopped too quick and he had to swerve to avoid hitting her).
You're certainly not unusual; most people do NOT maintain a safe following distance, especially in heavy traffic. But that doesn't mean the guy who stopped suddenly was in the wrong.
Dr. Moto
05-10-05, 09:39 AM
It's true how drivers will look right at you and not see you. I also believe that it's more difficult for drivers to gauge the speed of an approaching bicycle than it is for them to make the same judgment about an approaching car, maybe because of the narrower frontal area.
The other day I was riding behind my wife. She was towing our youngest daughter in a 2-wheel trailer, I had our oldest behind me on a trail-a-bike. We approached an intersection where we had the through road at about 12 mph. A driver who was stopped on the cross street looked straight at her, then pulled directly out in front of her to make a left. She swerved around the back of his car to avoid impact. I came up alongside and yelled loudly at his car, but he sped away.
When cycling at slower speeds (my commute as an example), if I even think a vehicle operator hasn't seeen me, I'll give them a loud "hey" or other verbal alert. I'll do this while moving my upper body (usually just shaking my head side to side). This, will allmost allways "grab" there attention. At the same time I'm also prepared for an emergency move, an immediate "flip" turn right into the cross street for example-while braking.
Eggplant Jeff
05-10-05, 10:18 AM
I really think that wearing super-bright neon shirts makes a huge difference. I don't know if it is just that it makes you stand out when in normal clothes the drivers' eyes pass right over you, or if it makes you look more like a "professional" cyclist, as opposed to just someone tooling around on a bike.
But I have had no, zero, zilch of what I would call "close" calls. Whereas another commuter (wearing regular clothes) I saw crossing an intersection while I was waiting at it nearly got hit by the car turning left. She (the biker) was in the road, on the right side, travelling correctly. It isn't just that I live in a particularly polite area, I think the shirt really has a lot to do with it.
It may be that the bright neon colors are similar to street sign colors, so drivers are already pre-programmed to notice them. But whatever the reason, I virtually always get lots of room when people are passing me, and drivers almost always hang back when there isn't enough room. And I've never been almost run over by a turning vehicle. Once or twice they have failed to yeild to me when they should, but they obviously SAW me and were just being rude.
noisebeam
05-10-05, 10:25 AM
Agreed. And also ride at a speed that is safe for the situation. This may be below the speed limit. Note that cars in residental neighborhoods pull out in front of other cars all the time - it is a normal behavior in residential neighborhoods - it is not just that they don't see you but that there is a give and take even between drivers - a good specific example is backing out of the driveway - you check that no cars are coming, then back out, but if one comes in the process, they slow and don't hit you. Be alert for all possible entering traffic and plan to stop or take evasive action before they pull out in front of you.
But as to the legal issues in this case, it is hard to tell without more specifics, but likely the car is at fault with contributing factor of cyclist speed if over SL.
Al
Residential area = 25 MPH speed limit in most states. So who's at fault?
bostontrevor
05-10-05, 10:30 AM
The details are sparse and more information may change the picture, but right now, assuming they weren't breaking the speed limit, the driver is wholly at fault. They made an illegal lane change. Yes, you're supposed to follow at a safe distance, but according to the description, the cyclist wasn't following anyone. If he hit the driver's side (making the assumption that it's not the driver's side of the rear), then the car hasn't even fully entered the lane, it's still somewhat perpendicular.
They pulled out without waiting for the lane to be clear and violated the cyclist's right of way. If the cyclist was exceeding the speed limit, they may be partially liable.
(And for the record, I can think of places that I'd term "residential" but are crossed by streets with speed limits in excess of 35mph and if he was only doing 30mph, well that's any street--or maybe just numbered route--in Mass without an otherwise defined speed limit.)
Let the lawyers and such sort out "fault".
In practice, it doesn't matter who is at fault. I would say that in the vast majority of accidents the "fault" lies with both parties: somebody makes the initial mistake and the other makes the second mistake (often just not being defensive enough) and an accident results.
It makes some people feel better to attempt to precisely assign blame, but the damage is already done now. Its much better to share ideas for how this accident could have been avoided or mitigated.
BTW, what is the proper way to crash into a car after coming to the quick and unpleasant realization that you are not going to avoid a collision?
Eggplant Jeff
05-10-05, 10:45 AM
Gently?
bostontrevor
05-10-05, 11:05 AM
It makes some people feel better to attempt to precisely assign blame, but the damage is already done now. Its much better to share ideas for how this accident could have been avoided or mitigated.
That's well and good, but if there's insurance or litigation involved, a faut determination will be made and that's what the original post asked. There are a bunch of obvious ways this could have been avoided, but that's not what this thread is about.
BTW, what is the proper way to crash into a car after coming to the quick and unpleasant realization that you are not going to avoid a collision?
It's about knowing how to fall. There's no one-size-fits-all. I've been hit twice (once wholly the driver's fault and one I shared some fault). The first time was a right hook by a smaller car and I saw it coming but couldn't move quickly enough so I leaned into it to try to get my weight up onto the hood of the car instead of in front of it. I escape with nothing but a small bruise though it did wreck a wheel. On the other hand, my second one was a side impact from an Econoline van. Again I saw it coming, but I leaned away from the hit to try to get some distance for the driver to slow down and to start putting myself in motion in the direction of the impact. Given the height of the hood, leaning into it would only have braced my position and made the impact more severe. In that case I bent a crank (I think that's where the bumper made impact), ripped up my pants, got some bruises, and pretty seriously bloodied my elbow (I think it may scar, it was well over a month ago and still hasn't gone away).
On the other hand, if I were the one hitting the car, then I might try to turn myself at least a little in one direction to cut down the angle of impact so that I would have a more glancing trajectory rather than a head-on, and so on and so forth.
StanSeven
05-10-05, 11:10 AM
Sorry, but in your situation, the driver wasn't obligated to see you if you were behind him. You're obligated to follow at a safe distance for your stopping ability.
I didn't mean I wasn't at fault. My point was I could have seriously been injured because I was going too fast for conditions, didn't anticipate evnets, and that bikes don't stop as quickly as we think.
Dr. Moto
05-10-05, 11:12 AM
I reckon I did jump to that conclusion.
TrevorInSoCal
05-10-05, 01:51 PM
When cycling at slower speeds (my commute as an example), if I even think a vehicle operator hasn't seeen me, I'll give them a loud "hey" or other verbal alert.
I tend to do this as well. For all the good it does. Last week while on the way home from work a large commercial truck was approaching rapidly from a side street. There's street parking along the street I was on, so cars are forced to edge out into the street to see if it's clear to proceed. I was well out of the door zone and should have been visible if he was paying any attention. Apparently he wasn't, because he was halfway into the intersection before he stopped. I yelled "Yo!" loudly as I was swerving to avoid him.
Couple hundred yards later, as he passed by, the passenger leaned out the window and yelled something unintelligible about the sidewalk, as if it was my fault that he almost hit me. Unfortunately I succumbed to my angry-biker tendencies at that point and flipped him off.
The ironic part was that the logo on the side of the truck identified it as a company that sponsors one of the local cycling teams.
-Trevor
lilHinault
05-10-05, 02:16 PM
#1 people do not expect bikes to go 35 MPH
#2 small silhouette = far away, this effect affects motorcyclists too.
#3 Thank God you're ok, bikes are cheap, try buying new body parts!
I'm just getting into biking again and am a big believer in teh yellow, got my yellow Izumi jacket, couple-a yellow jerseys, even got some yellow bar tape for teh black stealthbike.
Hm, an air horn, that's an idea!
A word to the wise: It doesn't matter who's fault it is if yer deader than disco. Watch those intersections and always behave as if you NEVER have the right of way. I'm responsible for my own safety. I never expect cagers to be responsible for my safety.
I was buzzing down the road yesterday at 30 mph or so a truck very nearly pulled out in front of me until he saw me at the last minute and braked. The thing about it was I EXPECTED him to pull out in front of me and I was already on my brakes before he ever made his move. If I had to, I could have easily stopped in the event he pulled out. If he had, I would have just gone around and never gave him a second thought.
Never ever give the driver the benefit of doubt, if you even have the slightest hint that they're pulling out of anywhere, slow down and prepare to stop.
I was nailed with 27watts of light up front at night, if a driver doesn't notice that, it's hard for them to notice anything at all. Anyway, this year, I've stuck a real bright cateye on my helmet too so I can look at drivers about to make turns or pull out of drive ways and bean em in the eye so they know I'm coming.
manual_overide
05-10-05, 05:58 PM
if you read both pages, the guy said he was going down a street, and the car pulled out of some apartment complex. I don't know anything about this location, but the complex I live in now, the speed limit of the road in front of it is 40mph. I've lived in another where it was 35. Even if he was speeding, it doesn't really matter. It's called failure to yield to the right of way. A slower speed on behalf of the biker may have helped him to avoid the accident, but the driver of the car is clearly at fault here. If you are driving a car and pull out of a driveway like that or pull onto a major road from a minor road and are hit, it's your fault.
Anybody take an MSF class? SIPDE! :)
I've always believed people should be forced to spend a lot of hours on two wheels before being allowed to drive a car... If nothing else, it would weed out the truly stupid.
AverageCommuter
05-11-05, 12:41 AM
if you read both pages, the guy said he was going down a street, and the car pulled out of some apartment complex. I don't know anything about this location, but the complex I live in now, the speed limit of the road in front of it is 40mph. I've lived in another where it was 35. Even if he was speeding, it doesn't really matter. It's called failure to yield to the right of way. A slower speed on behalf of the biker may have helped him to avoid the accident, but the driver of the car is clearly at fault here. If you are driving a car and pull out of a driveway like that or pull onto a major road from a minor road and are hit, it's your fault.
The OP of the thread on the other board stated that the rider was hit on Telegraph, then the rider himself mentions Sappington Barracks. A quick search finds that Telegraph and Sappington Barracks is an intersection in St. Louis. Going to the map, Telegraph road, otherwise known as State Road 231, is a fairly major thorougfare. If nothing else, people can toss out the idea that it was a residential area or a street with a low speed limit. Sounds like it definitely qualifies as failure to yield to the right of way.
The OP of the thread on the other board stated that the rider was hit on Telegraph, then the rider himself mentions Sappington Barracks. A quick search finds that Telegraph and Sappington Barracks is an intersection in St. Louis. Going to the map, Telegraph road, otherwise known as State Road 231, is a fairly major thorougfare. If nothing else, people can toss out the idea that it was a residential area or a street with a low speed limit. Sounds like it definitely qualifies as failure to yield to the right of way.
I am a St. Louis Cyclist (Bicycle Commuter) and I know that Telegraph is very busy and the speed limit is not 25. I live in North County and don't get down to Telegraph much. Last time I was there they actually had bike lanes. Not sure if they are all the way yet along Telegraph. So he may not have been in a bike lane. I would guess the speed limit is 35 or more possibly 40.
Keep Cycling!
slagjumper
05-11-05, 10:47 AM
If you hit the rear of anything its your fault. At least in pa.
If someone "enters the street at the duress of others" that is another issue. Commonly this includes being doored. However, it the car pulls out and you hit the side, you may have an argument for the car driver being at fault.
Take down plates and get witness info first.
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