General Cycling Discussion - The end of Amtrak.

Finally, the day is about on us, where the U.S. will have no national passenger train service... The government is saying if it can't make it on its own; its done for...
I am furious. Any of you used it for taking your bike on the train, getting off in a rural area and riding home.. The service is great..
In four hours we can be in great cycling country and not have to drive through frustrating busy cities, with lots of road rage.
It is a crock. The government subsidizes what ever the lobbyists bribe the politicians to subsidize. The only reason roads gets subsidized over trains.. There is a national paving lobby, destroying our country-side with asphalt and only temporarily relieving traffic, until congestion encroaches the newly paved segmets with its urban pollution... Remember after Sept. 11- the government gave the airlines $15 B. to keep them going.. Again, they have lobbyists.. The train subsidy to keep Amtrak going is only $200 M. The govement spends that on one freeway interchange often..
This is a very sad day for the U.S. Yes, they say, we might get a privitazed system. but, I assure you- this will end for ALL time a passenger train system- national in scope.
And trains can be vital to our national interests. Remember when the last LA earthquake destroyed vital interchanges coming from the northwest suburbs... The trains were the only way for people to commute along this corridor, for about 3 months.. There was no other option without a horrendous drive.
If we allow this to happen, we are all nuts...
Without approval of an emergency subsidy- train service will end July 1... The politicians want to give away this national treasure to private interests at firesale prices. Probably have their backers all lined up to benefit..
No where in the world are execelant train systems; not subsidized. We expect different here... Please contact your favorite politicians in Washington D.C.

My good buddy and cycling friend is a Amtrack engineer. has been operating locomotives for 31 years the last 17 for amtrack. he told me yesterday that july 1 he is being transfered back to hauling fraight. as his job will be elimated.

yes it is sad as Ive taken the cross country routes several times a greatway to get o a start point or home after a tour . This is a bum deal to loose the train service every time ive been on the train it has been full or nearly full there are still some remote pats of the country that people depend on trains for transportation the auto industry is excited about this

Not gonna happen... I mean, yes, it sounds bad, and both sides are getting alot of press, but Amtrak is not going away. Right now, with the end of the current agreement drawing near, you have the typical political positioning going on, the government does not want to spend, and Amtrak DOES need more money to maintain the equipment they have.
We may see changes in the way rail transportation is operated in this country, and it's about time, but a national rail system is not going away... although you might be riding a train owned by private investment groups on more local and short haul line. The states will have to help out more as well... and they already do in most regions.
Lets all hope that the powers that be finally reform the current system, and make rail more accessable to more of our small towns and rural country. Here in the northeast, and on the west coast, we have fairly complete coverage... it is new regulations that would help private passenger operations the chance to be profitable, that will help the rest of the country... but a national system is not going away.
The kids in Washington just have a difficult time playing nice together in the sandbox...

And don't forget, that in Washington, the loudest lobbyist gets the best deal. :(
So, Amtrak is making a helluva lot of noise right now. :cry:

Yes, Bikehard700 is right. I just checked their website and they deny even to reduce their services.

http://www.amtrak.com/idrequire.html

Look at the airlines when they priviatized- lots of airports across the land where totally without service.. That will happen here..
The Amtrak lobby is almost non-existant. They do not have the bucks of the paving lobby.... Too many customers are quiet. The times I have been on AMTRAK trains- they were pretty darn full..
A lot of DC pols. want AMTRAK done in, intentionally- because they can hand over this national treasure- conceptually at least- to their highest bidders, who are their friends..
I say yes, as a National privitized system- their will be no national system- coast to coast- etc.,because it is not profitable.. Only short distances... I want to be able to put my bike on a train and go to Seattle, maybe.. that is what any civilized country should have..
I hate flying. They rip me off when I order their dam tickets in their ticket marathon, which is some kind of con system; similiar to buying a car at dealerships... I hate the security mania at the gate and I hate flying itself.. If we had fast trains and I did not go overseas; I might never step foot in a plane again... In Europe, when I travel on mass transit trains- planes are not even considered.. Why would you do such? You can be from London to Madrid overnight...

yes, it's sad, but it's been said for many years now!

i am a big fan of trains and believe they should be used a lot more in the US - particularly for freight but the trucking lobby forces keep the use of rail for freight low...

as for Amtrak... i think, as has been said, that Amtrak as a whole probably won't go away, but there will be an effort to privatize which will result ONLY highly progitable service like the Northeast corridor or California, and Amtrak may be reduced to a poor powerless entity. a lot of private investors will probably be able to make a ton of money... but in the end, unless we have some really good method of government oversight (which we don't have much of a record for) privitization will not be a good thing for our rail system.

as i always question: why are the billions spent on roads and the automobile an INVESTMENT in out communities, the airline bailout and airport subsidies an investment in America, and the mealsy cost for Amtrak a SUBSIDY? it's the same thing: government (taxpayer) money being spent for transportation for the country and public at large? people and legislators holler that Amtrak is losing money and not profitable:: show me the US government profits from the airline or auto industry - there are none other than taxes taken from the private companies that make a bundle off of these government-subsidized services. if the auto-network had to be profitable, every single road would be a toll road and airport fees would be more than the current $5-8 per passenger (or did they raise it for security costs?).

and yes, i think the answer is because of private companies and lobbies which have the $$$ to influence and both airlines and auto forces see an economic advantage in keeping train service bad or non-existent. maybe the only positive to come from rail privatization would be that some day we might have $$ forces to lobby for rail, but that's a long way off and still not a beautiful picture...

Maybe Amtrak is efficient on the East coast, but I rode them once to Montana and was astonished at the miserable service.

We were 14 hours late arriving and 16 hours late returning.

The toilets filled and overflowed. When I reported it to the Amtrak employee that was assigned to our car, she said "dat 'aint mah job!" and the toilet remained stinky and filthy for the two and a half days that we rode it.

I think that government subsidies helps promote that kind of attitude. If Amtrak can't provide an efficient and cost-effective transportation service - be gone with them.

The car has only been around for the last 60-80 years as a mass produced product - how many more years will it be available 20 ?, 40 ?, 60 maybe ?, whatever the answer, the chances are that those in school today will not own their own personal motorised long distance transport by the time they get to retirement.

What will replace it ? - trains in some form or another for medium (and maybe long) distance, hopefully the bike or similar for short distance and the aeroplane for long distance (I don't see ships back for long distance passenger services within a centry or so)

So any fool cutting out a rail passenger service will be forced within a short period of time (half a centruy or so) to have to reinstate it, at a massive and possibly prohibitive cost, which is the sort of thing that will send some currently great nations back to the position (in world ranking) they were in a century or more ago.

The USA is a classic example of this, when (not if) the fuel to run the cars becomes unavalable (and a war in the middle east for example could do this within a matter of a few months), therefore American can not run cars, where will that leave the country ?.

Europe would be only completly knackered, but at least would have a rail, canal and road system suitable for horse powererd (and therefore cycle powered) transport. The USA on the other hand would be on it knees as there is no fallback.

The Continental USA is a land designed for wonderful rail systems, imagine what it would look like if the French still had Louisana and Canada, a world class rail system.

If anyone wants to see how public transport can and should be run, France is a great example, fast, cheap and effecient, and for distances under about 1,200 miles always better and often faster than a 'plane.

Talk about your basic boondoggle. The Federal government tries to run a railroad on someone else tracks. DUH? That'll work......

Amtrak is an idea only Richard Cranium himself could think up!

It is unfortunate for all US citizens that government attention to transportation needs is proprotionate to lobbying efforts in most cases. Efficient use of natural or (industrial resources) is not exactly the hallmark of American culture.

One might construe from your post that your leisure time affords you the opportunity to make your government Representatives aware of your concerns. Good Luck, be sure to attache some "tens and twenties" to your correspondence.

Besides travel in California, I have traveled from Tampa to Chicago on Amtrak... The trains are slow because we neglect our tracks. that is not Amtrak's fault.. Tracks are not owned by Amtrak.. But the cafteria and general amenities were fine. Don't like the slowness of trains; I like the fact, you can get off; stay overnignt in rural Kansas and continue on next day as one ongoing fare.
As to poor service- I have some stories about Greyhound and America West. They are privately owned...

I'm not familiar with the rail system in the US but privatisation of the UK rail network has arguably been a disaster for the end user.

just as a side-note so that's it's clear that unfortunately it's not just Americans who are braindead when it comes to transportation and trains...

Germany has a great train infrastructure with the capability to efficiently serve almost every citizen and in the past has had a great train system. Currently the train service is generally good but not great - the joke is that when the trains cross the border from France or Switerland they are always on-time but quickly become behind schedule... from personal experience there's some truth to the saying...

unfortunately Germans have some American-like love affair with the automobile (note the 'performance' auto capital of the world: BMW, Mercedes, Porsche and Audi). most upper-middle class Germans now choose not to use the train (i'm generalizing), and more and more money goes to auto facilties and the train system has been starved for money for years now.

So trains are not updated, tracks not improved, and problems not quickly handled, so as the service deteriorates, more and more people choose other options and then there are fewer riders and then fewer funds, and the service deteriates more, cyclically, etc.

in Germany, despite having all the right ingredients for great train service, it is now becoming in fashion with many image-conscious Germans to fly "American style" within Germany although it is normally of neglible time-savings compared to the train and almost definitely more inconvenient with airport security and outer-city airports compared to central-city train stations... but as more people fly it becomes cheaper and companies are offered flying discounts, etc. and driving on the autobahn (while i DO really like the design and rules) has always been in vouge and cool...

the main reason why most Germans don't drive as much as Americans is simply practicality: heavy traffic and expense (gas costs 3-4 times what it does in the US) and like NYC, the public transit is there and driving is often almost impossible.

** almost all my based on my experiences living in Germany the last 14 months

I'm not familiar with the rail system in the US but privatisation of the UK rail network has arguably been a disaster for the end user.

Germany is also beginning to experiment with rail privatization. There are currently a few 'success' stories like the BOB (Bayerische Oberland Bahn) and they do run a good service for a good price and earn a decent profit, but the main problem with privitization is that service is only provided where it is profitable (BOB runs 2 lines from Munich to the mountains serving city-to-country leisure travellers and country-to-city commuters) and those users who don't live somewhere profitable get shafted. or when the 'business' mismanages itself or make a mistake then the service that people rely on gets gutted or cut.

privatization could turn out OK in Germany, but that remains to be seen. currently profitable lines are being privatized while the public German Rail continues to provide all users with service despite the financial gains or losses...

i think the US will begin privatizing more and more quite soon... (not that it's good, just my prediction)

Britian was the first country to have railways, and therefore also the one of the early countries to Nationalise the railway industry (in the late 1930's I think, the Russians were first), Britian was also one of the first to de-nationalise (privatise) the rail network (in the 1990's), with the end result it now predictably has a major mess on it's hands, and a 40 year backlog of investment that needs to be spent to get it upto standard

A national rail system can no more be privatized than a national road system

On the other hand if this is the way governments are thinking then how much are shares in say US Route 66 or the German north/south autobahn ?

As a shareholder I propose a realistic toll, say $1 per mile per ton using my road. Think that would suddenly improve the rail system ...!

For the Americans, where most of the USA is basically flat and empty, so perfect railway country, a decent rail line could get you from coast to coast in about 10-12 hours which as that can go from city center to city center so your door to door time even for that distance could be faster than a plane, make it a shorter trip, say Chicago to say LA, NY or New Orleans, which are about 1,000 miles east, west, or south then 7-8 hours would be enough time - perfect for an overnight trip, go to bed in Chicago wake up by the sea. Perfect. Just need poloticians with vision

I notice in my morning paper's business section that United Air Lines is getting down on it's knees and undoing Congressional zippers in hopes of more loan guarantees. Maybe we need to let a couple of airlines bite the dust and put much more money into Amtrak--out overdependence on airlines makes them vulnerable.
America--land of the transportation-stupid.
"Adolf Hitler on a bicycle would be a better person than Albert Schweitzer in a car"

I have been in Germany twice. Once using rail, another rented a car and went up the Moselle... Driving the Moselle was fine.. Driving the autobahn about Frankfort, scared the hell out of me.. Speed kills... On an eurrail pass all the trains of Europe seem much the same... As for storing a bike, while on the train- our Amtrak was tops of all train systems; I have had experience with...

Oh, and by the way, there is no "free market" transportation anywhere in the world, in any format. ALL TRANSPORTATION SYSTEMS ARE SOCIALIZED. Only stupid people believe otherwise.

Oh, and by the way, there is no "free market" transportation anywhere in the world, in any format. ALL TRANSPORTATION SYSTEMS ARE SOCIALIZED. Only stupid people believe otherwise.

i'm not sure that i would say all, but all large-scale systems... but you're missing the capitalist's point and motivation: that some can make money off all that expenditure and it's better investors than the darn government...

ok, that was the negative side: of course what these guys will claim (which can sometimes be true) is that the market can more efficiently run the system. i would agree that the market can generally more COST-EFFECTIVELY run the system, but this often doe not mean most efficiently or good in general...

Driving the autobahn about Frankfort, scared the hell out of me.. Speed kills... cyclezealot

although i'm a major cycle supporter and a train fan and i don't have a car here in Germany, i occaisonally rent (i'm a member of car-sharing) or drive my girlfriend's car...

anyway, i think driving on the German Autobahn is far better than the US interstate. despite having more curves and smaller shoulders and more restrictions b/c of topography and pre-existing natural and man-made structures (the US was comparatively flat and void of anything when the Interstate was built), the Autobahn funtions more efficiently and more safely than the Interstate.

i need to check the numbers again, but i think the Interstate had higher overall crash rates, but the fatality rate was almost the same for both b/c of the higher Autobahn speed.

the main advantage with the Autobahn is the NO UNDERTAKING rule where tickets are given both if you don't get over to the right if you can and if you pass on the right. this means that the cars to your left are always going faster and to the right always slower, so there are no surpirses and in an emergency you know where you stand. in additoin there are higher auto safety standards and inspections (in the US in most states if it runs over 35mph or maybe passes an emmisions test it is allowed on the Interstae), as well as much better driving education where incompentent drivers never earn or quickly loose their licenses.


As for storing a bike, while on the train- our Amtrak was tops of all train systems; I have had experience with... cyclezealot
my experience too although Amtrak charged me for 2 bikes when i had a bike and a trailer which i found annoying (they said i used 2 rack spots, so...). the German 'bike' cars in trains are nothing but cars without seats with a few straps where you jam as many bikes as will fit and then when the guy needs to get the bike out of the far corner you have to remove 10-12 bikes to get to it - stupid!

Bush administration says that Amtrak will not go unfunded, but changes will be necessary to continue...
http://www.cnn.com/2002/TRAVEL/NEWS/06/25/amtrak.mineta.ap/index.html

For the Americans, where most of the USA is basically flat and empty, so perfect railway country, a decent rail line could get you from coast to coast in about 10-12 hours which as that can go from city center to city center so your door to door time even for that distance could be faster than a plane, make it a shorter trip, say Chicago to say LA, NY or New Orleans, which are about 1,000 miles east, west, or south then 7-8 hours would be enough time - perfect for an overnight trip, go to bed in Chicago wake up by the sea. Perfect. Just need poloticians with vision brains

yes, i can see why it's hard to understand the horrible state of passenger trains in the US. it's also ironic since the train was THE factor that opened up the country and allowed much of the initial development of the West. notice that almost every major city west of the Mississippi was orriginally a significant railroad stop.

but through a conspiracy of the auto, oil and rubber companies the train was pushed to the back burner in the US. then, after WWII, the US saw how quickly and efficiently the Nazis had moved troops and military equipment in Germany during the war and how much more vulnerable trains were to attack (i.e. a tank or a truck can go off-road more easily than a train after something gets destroyed). Thus, in the interests of military security, and i'm sure with some helpful advice from the oil, auto and ruber interests, the US Interstate was born. some time since then the Interstate has become the backbone of our transportation system and it's largely forgotten that it was build to move troops and military equipment, not drive little Johnny to school, his dad to work and the whole family to Disneyland for vacation.

So since the 50's the US has deinvested in trains and invested everything in roads and auto facilities. and, despite, the logical sense that re-building an efficient train system makes, the US considers important transportation systems to be CAR and PLANE... unfortunately since 1) that's where all the money already is and 2) that's what people are already used to, i think it will stay that way. in the general US view: walking is what you do inside a building or a mall, cycling is for kids and trains are just for nestalgia! (sorry to be so cynical, but it's pretty close to being totally true)

i actually had some hope that trains might be revived after September 11th when it was obvious how vulnerable planes can be and has also made flying much less convenient than ever before because of all the security restriction and the airlines who were already in financial troubles were hit even harder... i really have to wonder these days how the people who get on a plane every Monday to fly somewhere for work can be happy with it now that they have to check in an hour or more early, deal with all the searches and parking restrictions... i just don't see how commercial flying can still be considered luxurious and wonderful...

but alas, i only heard one major mainstream call for reviving the train network instead of pumping all the money in to save the airlines... i think it was actually some conservative who was suggesting it as a more cost-effective choice to create a more stable, more efficient, cheaper transportation system for our economy. and as far as i can tell, it fell on deaf ears.

threadend, thanks for the link. there's a great quote:

"The bottom line is for every other method of transportation the federal government steps up to the plate," said Sen. Charles Schumer, D-New York. "We have to have a long term plan for Amtrak that's consistent with the way we fund road and air transportation, which means the federal government pays for the infrastructure."

that's true, but unfortunately of little importance b/c only airplanes and cars are viewed as important transportation modes for the US - i.e. worth big $$ taxpayer money

Speaking of Germany and roads, isn't it harder to get a drivers' license there than in the US? Here, we damn near give 'em out as breakfast cereal premiums--you don't even have to be literate in the language in which road signs are written to be legally licensed to drive!

My view of long distance US train travel. We have not invested in high speed trains or upgrading tracks. How could Amtrak not have problems... As to local service in our populated states- I have found Amtrak service acceptable...
I do take exception to the point we do not subsidize plane travel. We give them big bucks.. That $8 per plane ticket is nothing..
Train travel suffers for those of us who want to use it- because Amtrak does not bribe the Congressman as do the airlines and those who would pave over the country... Is it not like every year, we pave over the equivilant of Rhode Island. Only to be miserable, during our daily commutes.
And the thing is- most trains, when I use them, I find pretty full..

Speaking of Germany and roads, isn't it harder to get a drivers' license there than in the US? Here, we damn near give 'em out as breakfast cereal premiums--you don't even have to be literate in the language in which road signs are written to be legally licensed to drive!

yes, getting a license in Germany is a serious endeaver. first you must be at least 18, and it will cost at least $1000. you have to take significant amount of serious driver training - not the "driver's ed" kindergarten like in the US. then, the driving exam is actually someone with real questions, not like the US tests. this was a real question from an Oregon exam: you have a tire blowout. do you a) accellerate b) slam on brakes c) slowly apply brakes and cautionsly pull to side d) sound horn... most states in the US have now eliminated the behind-the-wheel test if you complete driver's ed to save money - at 15 when i took driver's ed i wouldn't have paid attention if i hadn't have had to take a driving exam afterward (has anyone in the US ever failed driver's ed? no one i know)

then in Germany you loose your license after a few infractions.

getting a motorcylce license requires another set of a few weeks of training plus a road test. to get my motorcycle license in Texas i was asked to point out the front and rear brakes, turn on the blinkers and then drive once around the block - and i was then licensed! even though i didn't know crap about safety and braking techniques, etc. all of which i learned myself through trail and error in my first few months on the motorcycle

in Germany driving is considered a PRIVILEGE, not a RIGHT like in the US.

many people never earn a license b/c they don't have the money, don't need to or simply can't pass the training and exams. in the US if you don't have a license you might be accused of being un-American or at least be considered strange (people thought it weird when i had a license, car and chose to ride a bike)

Well, you nailed the big misconception of many Americans--trust me, no where in the US Constitution will you see the word "car."

Nathank.. Also, you might be lucky enough not to need a car..Traveling by train in Germany, we were on a midnight train down the Romantic road... Got off at about midnight at Rothenburg station. Couple miles out of town.. Found out there is a 24 hour bus service, but you have to call them up..We got downtown to our hotel.. This out in the country.. That would not happen in the U.S. In all the major cities of Germany, I recall there were subways, trams etc. running late into the evening..
Question- I think road rage is being caused by our choked roads and overdependence upon the car.. Cars are no longer fun..
How do you compare road rage in Europe with what you might have remembered in the U.S.- Nathank...

latest article: Amtrak, Bush Admin. Reach Agreement (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A51763-2002Jun26.html)