Bicycle Mechanics - What is the Shimano MTB equivalent of 105?

I don't know the MTB line very well at all. I am thinking about upgrading my rear der on my cross bike, currently it has "LX", would like to go for the rough equivalent of the 105 road series (that is the current FD I have; other components are Sora which I may eventually upgrade as well).

umm, well for shimano i think its supposed to be LX. If you want to upgrade, look at XT

Is XT the top-end or is there something more better than that?

XTR

OK, cool. Thanks for the tips.

but just for the record, XTR is only lighter than XT. Some believe that XTR is weaker to make up for the weight savings. I believe it to be true, i think that XT is the point on the shimano line where it is the optimum balance between performance and strength

That's cool, I would probably not spring for XTR (just checked some prices!), and, like Dura-Ace in the road series, I cannot justify the cost by lighter weight alone.

BTW, what is all this "Saint", "Hone", etc.?

That's cool, I would probably not spring for XTR (just checked some prices!), and, like Dura-Ace in the road series, I cannot justify the cost by lighter weight alone.

BTW, what is all this "Saint", "Hone", etc.?
I think those are Shimanos free ride type catagories, i have no idea of their performance. I dont know a heck of a lot outside of a my XC world, and a little road

OK, looks like the XT M760 is probably what I want.

Anyone want to hazard a guess on compatibility with my current setup?

Sora shifters (8 spd)
52/39 front
12-32 rear (current RD is marked simply "Deore LX", no numbers that I can see)


Also, is the "Rapid Rise" designation really something, or just marketing?

Edit: SGS vs GS? GS cage looks shorter, but the specs are the same (11T min, 34T max, 22 Front Difference). SGS is a little heavier. What's up with that?

These are the "sort of" equivalents

XTR - Dura Ace
XT - Ultegra
LX - 105
Deore - Tiagra
Alivio - Sora
Acera
Altus

They have a couple more lines in there now (Saint, Hone, Tourny)

XTR is "the best". It is light weight, expensive, and can be a little less durable than regular XT.

Yeah, I got that figured out (mostly . . . I don't understand Deore, though, because my LX says "Deore LX", and the XT I was looking at says "Deore XT", so ???

Anyway, from my last post, I'm thinking I will shot for the XT but not sure if I should go for the GS or SGS or whether that will even work with my current setup (specs above).

There should be an explanation of the Shimano website. Too late to switch to SRAM? Saint is their heavy duty DH/Freeride stuff, Hone is the budget version of Saint. They've also got some backwards shifting rear derailleurs, which is where the Rapid Rise comes in. I think.

Yeah, I got that figured out (mostly . . . I don't understand Deore, though, because my LX says "Deore LX", and the XT I was looking at says "Deore XT", so ???

In the old days, Deore was Shimano's mountain and touring group. They were more durable than road groups and designed to handle a larger capacity of gears as well as accomodate triples. Around the mid to late 1980s, Shimano released Deore II. This became the standard for high-end Shimano-equipped MTBs. By the late 1980s and early 1990s, the Deore II namesake disappeared and was replaced with subgroups under the Deore banner. These were in order of quality and bling: DeoreXT, DeoreDX and DeoreLX. The DeoreDX group was the best bang-for-buck at that time and fullfilled a spot that's still kind of missing in Shimano's line today (nearly as cheap as DeoreLX but with all the features and qualities of DeoreXT only slightly heavier) although some would argue that DeoreXT is a good current substitute.

In 1992, XTR (aka DeoreXTR) was released and became the top-tier group. It was a "new-technology" train where innovations meant directly for the racing scene were first introduced. Things like 8-speed first appeared in XTR. Around 1994 the DeoreDX group was removed from the lineup and DeoreLX was promoted to take its place although the quality of DeoreLX was slightly lacking when compared with DeoreDX. Also, a marketting decision was made to introduce new mainstream consumer features directly into the DeoreLX group. For instance the first appearances of the mechanical optical gear display was seen in DeoreLX shifters. It then got migrated to DeoreXT and XTR.

In the late 1990s/early-2000, a new budget MTB group was introduced that resurrected the old plain Deore name. It was a watered down DeoreLX group that combined some of the cost-cutting production methods from the lower-end Altus/Acera and (at the time) STX. FWIW, it's generally accepted although I personally have not confirmed that Shimano does not officially approve of the use of any group below Deore for MTB use.

Today, XTR is considered to be targetted towards the racing and bleeding-edge market, DeoreXT is the upper-crust of the "stable" recreational/performance market... usually considered to be more durable and longer-lasting, DeoreLX is the minimum performance group and still a spot where mainstream (non-performance enhancing) features usually get added first. It is also generally regarded as the best bang-for-buck group and Deore is still the budget-minded group that's the minimum appropriate for true MTB applications.
The group names are really a marketting tactic of packaging together components that share the same level of quality and features. You can usually tell where things fall in the pecking order by their numerical designations.

M510 series = Deore
M520 series = ExageES (discontinued)
M550-M580 series = DeoreLX
M650 series = DeoreDX (discontinued)
M730-M760 series = DeoreXT
M900-M960 series = XTR

For instance, the current DeoreXT rear derailleur is designated RD-M760-SGS (long cage, low-normal).

The M-series (mountain series) of Shimano components have undergone different group namings. At one time the M500 series of groups were given the name Exage500LX. This filled a spot similar to where Deore sits today. There were also at one time lesser M-series components such as M400 (Exage400LX), M300 (Exage300LX), M200 (200GS) and M100 (100GS). Many of these were pruned off as their applications and market positioning changed. Also, some of these groups turned out to not really be durable enough to be deserving of the M designation. There were also some "hybrid" M groups that included such things as the MC41 (STX-RC) meant for "advanced recreational/comfort", MC18 (Alivio), M330 (Acera) and MX66 (DX... no relation to DeoreDX) that was meant for the BMX market.

Wow khuon, you are a fount of Deore knowledge, thanks for the detailed explanation!

Expat: it's not too late for SRAM necessarily. What compelling reasons would you suggest for SRAM over Shimano? Remember that this is a cross bike which I ride mostly on the road; the main reason I need a MTB RD is for the cog capacity (I have 12-32 rear cassette).

Other than performance, ease of maintenance, price, and looks, I really don't have any compelling reasons why anyone should switch to SRAM. The seem to be motivated to make the best gear they can. Shimano seems to be motivated to make everything proprietary. I saw centerlock hubs on sale real cheap the other day. I guess not enough people are buying into the "All Shimano Group".

Other than performance, ease of maintenance, price, and looks, I really don't have any compelling reasons why anyone should switch to SRAM.

Are you being facetious? :D

Dual Control upsets my stomach.

Also, is the "Rapid Rise" designation really something, or just marketing?

Edit: SGS vs GS? GS cage looks shorter, but the specs are the same (11T min, 34T max, 22 Front Difference). SGS is a little heavier. What's up with that?

GS and SGS refer to the amount of chain wrap they will handle. A GS rear derailleur will wrap up 33 teeth of chain which exactly matches your current gearing. That's what I would get if it were my bike. An SGS derailleur has a longer cage, which weighs more, but will wrap 45 links of chain. If you have asperations of ever getting a triple front crankset, an SGS derailleur would be a good thing to have.

Rapid Rise refers to low normal (backward) derailleurs. If you were to cut the shift cable, the derailleur would seek the largest rear cog (easiest gear). If you ask, the Shimano people will give you some long winded reasoning why that's good idea. All that I know is that you can't force a change into an easier gear when you are struggling up a hill. To me, that's a bad thing. I don't like rapid rise derailleurs.

Dual Control upsets my stomach.

I couldn't tell from your post whether or not you were for or against switching to SRAM. Rapid-Rise upsets my legs first when I can't seek to the gear I want when I want it... and then my stomache gets upset.

Keep in mind that Shimano uses the trickle down effect on their higher end components.

This years LX is usually equivalent to last years XT.

Keep in mind that Shimano uses the trickle down effect on their higher end components.

This years LX is usually equivalent to last years XT.

I somewhat disagree. I think they trickle down the technology but not necessarily the quality. Although sometimes one equates to the other. It's not the same thing as with say Campagnolo where this year's Chorus is actually last year's Record. I also sometimes see things introduced at the LX level that trickle up.

All right guys, thanks a bunch. Quality info as always. I think I have enough info to make an informed decision now :)


Cheers,

'nother

SRAM and Road Levers aren't exactly friendly are they? I want a mtn bike rear derailleur for my cross-bike also, and the only Shimano 9-sp group that is "high-normal" is deore. I found an older model XTR derailleur that I will use instead. I looked at SRAM, but they have a 1-1 ratio, but the shimano uses 2-1, so you can't use shimano shifters with SRAM derailleurs. SRAM doesn't make a road lever, so that ended my shopping for SRAM. Someone said that only the ESP versions use the 1:1, but at the SRAM website, all the derailleur groups mention that they use a 1:1 ratio.

I'm not 100% sure what the 1-1 vs 2-1 ratios mean, but I think it means that for SRAM, 1 mm of derailleur travel requires 1 mm of cable travel and for Shimano, 2 mm of Derailleur travel requires 1 mm of cable travel.

Anyway, that's why I didn't go to SRAM.

SRAM and Road Levers aren't exactly friendly are they? I want a mtn bike rear derailleur for my cross-bike also, and the only Shimano 9-sp group that is "high-normal" is deore. I found an older model XTR derailleur that I will use instead. I looked at SRAM, but they have a 1-1 ratio, but the shimano uses 2-1, so you can't use shimano shifters with SRAM derailleurs. SRAM doesn't make a road lever, so that ended my shopping for SRAM. Someone said that only the ESP versions use the 1:1, but at the SRAM website, all the derailleur groups mention that they use a 1:1 ratio.

I'm not 100% sure what the 1-1 vs 2-1 ratios mean, but I think it means that for SRAM, 1 mm of derailleur travel requires 1 mm of cable travel and for Shimano, 2 mm of Derailleur travel requires 1 mm of cable travel.

I remember reading on this forum recently about some kind of "converter" for SRAM 1:1 to Shimano 2:1. I'm probably counting the SRAM option out myself, for the same reasons as you, though. I just want a new rear, not a new rear + gadget + god-knows-what-else simply to "avoid" Shimano and go with SRAM. I'm not into looks; the price is not that big of a deal; and that just leaves maintenance as the only other stated reason - I can deal with that.

Interesting. I just had a conversation with my LBS and they say that the High-Normal parts for LX, XT & XTR will be continued "indefinately." I take that to mean until they are no longer being requested. At any rate, he found an LX in stock (that he didn't know was there when he offered me the old XTR) so I will buy the LX instead and save $50. Plus now I won't be as nervous leaving the bike on the rack to be cased by would-be theives.

The point of this rambling was to say your LBS should be able to order the XT in non-rapid-rise configuration if you want to upgrade.

Is there any good reason not to use an Ultegra RD on a mountain bike? Aren't they functionally the same as XT? I don't like the painted derailers that Shimano is offering these days. It seems to me that they're just increasing their profits by using a cheaper finishing process. I just bought an Ultegra GS for my Bridgestone MB-2. It will be ridden on the road road, anyway. I'm too old to play in the dirt.

I started a thread recently where I asked if using a Suntour RD with Shimano shifters and cassette would work. Here's an update: It works, but not very well. It tends to go up and down two cogs when you only wanted one.

I was not aware that they made an Ultegra RD with the cog capacity needed for a "typical" MTB rear (32T or more)? Or have I misunderstood the importance of this specification?

You can usually exceed the recommendation a bit. 32t is pushing it though, there is a chance it won't work well on that big a sprocket.
Since it's an mtb on the road chances are the largest sprocket is 28t instead of 32t as you don't really need the lower gearing for road riding.

My MB-2 was originally equipped with a 13-26 freewheel. It now has an 11-28 cassette. Why would I want lower gearing than that for riding on the street? Walking would be faster. The long arm Ultegra GS is rated to 27t, but will actually handle 30, maybe more.

heh, well, as I said before, I don't know MTB very well (obviously!). But for me the Ultegra is out: I have 12-32 rear and I *need* that 32T sometimes! :)

...Why would I want lower gearing than that for riding on the street?...

Not sure why you would want it, but I want it because when I put my 21 lb daughter into her 25 lb trailer and try to ride up a hill, its nice to be able to spin, rather than grind my way to the top, even if I could walk faster. (at 75 rpm in 28-32 I still am going >4mph, so it is faster than walking, just not much). Its also nice for some of those short(1/4-1/2 mile)/steep 19% grade hills in western Dane County.

I tried using the 105 long cage with the 32, but there was no way to adjust the b-screw to give me enough space, and the tension/etc just didn't work at all, which is why I went to mtn-bike derailleurs.