Even clean "green" cars are not so great

[lilHinault]

Go check out this link, it's a good read!

http://www.janeholtkay.com/Articles/badlands.html

This lady can really write! She's right up there with Jim Kunstler in my book!

[bkrownd]

Bad link.

The only environmentally friendly car is one that sleeps in the garage all week. ;)

[lilHinault]

http://www.janeholtzkay.com/Articles/badlands.html
http://www.janeholtzkay.com/Articles/badlands.html
http://www.janeholtzkay.com/Articles/badlands.html

Sorry, I choked on her "Non-Mayflower-Manifest" name there..... jeezus, names with z's in 'em what next?

Let's try these links!

[spine of hortus]

haha industrial plants that manufacture things (like bikes and stuff) are known for polluting more than cars. but ive yet to hear anyone say anything about them.
and its not even that cars polute that much as a single entity its that the world is so overpopulated with people that have to have the latest and greatest of everything. i swear is cell phones caused detectable polution it would be 10 times worse than cars i think every 6 year old + has a cell phone nowadays

[lilHinault]

LOL Spine!

There's a DVD I saw, a documentary, about how some essential element used in the manufacture of cell phones is gotten from Africa somewhere, I'm thinking some heavy element used in the IC's, anyway, our shiny space-age cell phones are possible because starving African kids dig around in the mud for some dangerous heavy metal. Isn't that wonderful? I didn't get it because it sounded pretty depressing but now I plan to get it next time I see it.

This is something I've heard about elsewhere too, that an element used in making cellfones is dug up by starving people and kids, who are only paid a few pennies because that works slightly better than a kick in the head. It's a dirty little secret, that we're not supposed to think about, after all, Disney didn't tell us to think about that!

[lilHinault]

OK I found it:

http://www.africanfront.com/coltantrade.php

It's mainly tantalum, and that's used in *everything* electronic. I've got a bunch of tantalum capacitors around here.

This is just an example, saying something's green doesn't make it so, saying something's nice and clean and there's no human suffering involved in making it, doesn't make it so.

[spine of hortus]

dont forget those poor malasian children who assemble those phones in sweatshops for little or no pay. and if the refuse to assemble the get beat to death or sold to those nambla pedophiles

[genec]

dont forget those poor malasian children who assemble those phones in sweatshops for little or no pay. and if the refuse to assemble the get beat to death or sold to those nambla pedophiles

Actually there are no fingers small enough to assemble cell phones... they are typically done by large industrial machines which robotically place the components onto the circuit boards and then whisk the boards into huge "pizza ovens" to melt the lead based (bad for the environment... shame shame... ) solder to attach the tantalum based (actually only about 5-6 per phone) into place. Then the highly poisonous and potentially explosive NiMh or Li-ion batteries are attached and a hand full of "children" push the buttons to test the phones and pack them in boxes. The "children" tend to be highly paid and covet these jobs to relieve them from back breaking farm labor in hand toiled fields where crops such as rice for food, and cotton are grown... the latter to make the next "branded" $40 T shirt for some concert...

But hey, what do I know, I have only spent weeks watching the process in places like mainland China...

[Roody]

Actually there are no fingers small enough to assemble cell phones... they are typically done by large industrial machines which robotically place the components onto the circuit boards and then whisk the boards into huge "pizza ovens" to melt the lead based (bad for the environment... shame shame... ) solder to attach the tantalum based (actually only about 5-6 per phone) into place. Then the highly poisonous and potentially explosive NiMh or Li-ion batteries are attached and a hand full of "children" push the buttons to test the phones and pack them in boxes. The "children" tend to be highly paid and covet these jobs to relieve them from back breaking farm labor in hand toiled fields where crops such as rice for food, and cotton are grown... the latter to make the next "branded" $40 T shirt for some concert...

But hey, what do I know, I have only spent weeks watching the process in places like mainland China...How much do these "highly paid" children actually make? How much time do they spend in school? Who is growing the food now that they are working these fantastic factory jobs? You actually saw them buy concert T-shirts? Or did you have a corporate or government "minder" telling you all these statistics?

[genec]

How much do these "highly paid" children actually make? How much time do they spend in school? Who is growing the food now that they are working these fantastic factory jobs? You actually saw them buy concert T-shirts? Or did you have a corporate or government "minder" telling you all these statistics?

They are past school age... They are making more in a day than their farming counter parts make in month... they come in from the eastern provinces to get these jobs and then either go on to a secondary school (trade or college) or take the saved sum back to their family. They eat well in company cafes... I ate there too. There are plenty of folks back home to do the farming... low population is not a problem. (actually, over population is).

You are the ones buying the concert T shirts... made overseas, then shipped here so YOU can wear the "brand" of some rock group... guess where those profits go.

Yes, I did have a "minder" translating, I don't speak Chinese... however, the company I work for also employs Chinese speaking Americans that don't require translations that also have told me the same thing. I also can see how people act and react and believe me, these were not "tortured children."

What evidence do you have that "poor malasian children assemble those phones in sweatshops?" Have you been there? Perhaps "poor malasian children" assemble $100 USD shoes or other sporting goods in sweatshops, but not cell phones... Sorry... you picked the wrong industry.

[JonnyBoy]

Wait a sec...

Does coltan trade finance "Gorilla groups" or Guerilla groups?

[lilHinault]

Oh dear, has that article also suffered from the appalling spelling and grammar that infects the Internet? *sigh*. I see spelling and grammar problems even in articles on the sites of respected newspapers, where they should know better.

[Roody]

They are past school age... They are making more in a day than their farming counter parts make in month... they come in from the eastern provinces to get these jobs and then either go on to a secondary school (trade or college) or take the saved sum back to their family. They eat well in company cafes... I ate there too. There are plenty of folks back home to do the farming... low population is not a problem. (actually, over population is).

You are the ones buying the concert T shirts... made overseas, then shipped here so YOU can wear the "brand" of some rock group... guess where those profits go.

Yes, I did have a "minder" translating, I don't speak Chinese... however, the company I work for also employs Chinese speaking Americans that don't require translations that also have told me the same thing. I also can see how people act and react and believe me, these were not "tortured children."

What evidence do you have that "poor malasian children assemble those phones in sweatshops?" Have you been there? Perhaps "poor malasian children" assemble $100 USD shoes or other sporting goods in sweatshops, but not cell phones... Sorry... you picked the wrong industry.
Sorry--I misunderstood a couple of your points. Maybe I am the victim of anti-Free Trade propaganda. I assumed that by "children" you meant school-age children (and that is how the word is usually used) and I thought you meant they made so much money that they were buying $40 t-shirts (and that is just careless reading on my part). I think you are actually talking about the huge new cities in eastern China that have been set up as manufacturing centers.

This situation is almost perfectly analogous to the US in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, when what has been called the largest migration in human history occurred. Millions of agriculture workers from the south migrated to new industrial jobs in the north, in cities such as Cleveland, Chicago, Detroit, etc. The population of the US went from 90% rural to 90% urban in just a few decades. At the same time, a huge relocation of European agriculture workers to those same cities was occurring. Of course in China (and India, and the rest of the developing world), the scale of movement and change is even larger. At the same time, resources to support such change are dwindling (especially petroleum for fuel, amnufacturing and fertilizer), and we also have more awareness of the devastating impact on the environment and society.

[genec]

Sorry--I misunderstood a couple of your points. Maybe I am the victim of anti-Free Trade propaganda. I assumed that by "children" you meant school-age children (and that is how the word is usually used) and I thought you meant they made so much money that they were buying $40 t-shirts (and that is just careless reading on my part). I think you are actually talking about the huge new cities in eastern China that have been set up as manufacturing centers.

This situation is almost perfectly analogous to the US in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, when what has been called the largest migration in human history occurred. Millions of agriculture workers from the south migrated to new industrial jobs in the north, in cities such as Cleveland, Chicago, Detroit, etc. The population of the US went from 90% rural to 90% urban in just a few decades. At the same time, a huge relocation of European agriculture workers to those same cities was occurring. Of course in China (and India, and the rest of the developing world), the scale of movement and change is even larger. At the same time, resources to support such change are dwindling (especially petroleum for fuel, amnufacturing and fertilizer), and we also have more awareness of the devastating impact on the environment and society.

Yes, places such as Hangzhou... and the reference to "children" was to correct the original posters' assumptions that "children" are hand assembling cellphones in sweat camps. While there is a migration, in China it is highly regulated and limited numbers are allowed to come to the cities to undertake industrial jobs. The job situation is regulated such that after a period, the workers either progress through education or they go back to the farms, where earnings are used as capitol to improve the farms. Marriage, and child birth are also highly regulated. While China has embraced capitolism, it is being done under the eyes of the watchful fathers.

[spine of hortus]

wow hard to say anything else

1. the post was a joke mainly targeted at the nike scandal.
2. you have way too much time on your hands if that post was the best thing you had to do at the time.

[genec]

wow hard to say anything else

1. the post was a joke mainly targeted at the nike scandal.
2. you have way too much time on your hands if that post was the best thing you had to do at the time.

But perhaps not everyone understood that or has your sense of humor... and as far as time... I type fast. :D

[Roody]

Or maybe some of us are just really really deep!