Commuting - How to deal with the situation like this?

Riding back from work today to the train station (for those familiar with San Francisco, down the 4th ave to Caltrain) some dark Volvo SUV pulls very close next to me on a stop light honking and trying to push me off with his car. The guy starts screaming (he had both windows open) that "even though bikes have the right of way you cannot occupy the full lane and have to ride close to the sidewalk". His every second word was an f-word or a-word. I was kinda shocked and told him that he is an a-hole himself. After that he speeds up trying again to push me to the side nearly hitting me.

Any suggestion what to do in situations like this? It happens so quickly that one has no time to react or do something that makes sense.
The options I see are (aggresive or polite):
- have something sharp (like a nail) attached to the frame so I can quickly scratch the offenders car
- spit into his open window
- allow him to hit me with his car, while he is moving very slow, this will scratch his SUV but might result in much more severe consequences for me
- Politely tell him to read, respect and follow traffic rules. This one is tough when someone is calling you a f-ing a-hole non-stop.
- Just throw same offensive words back on him

Any suggestions how to deal with this?

I certainly wouldn't try the first two, and maybe the last, on the grounds that he's psycho enough already, and you don't want to risk making it worse. The third is obviously bad for you. I might be tempted to go with the fourth, but you don't want to get into a prolonged argument. Maybe you could just avoid him by moving forward in the line (if there's room to get around on the side), or just ignore him? (I know, it's hard not to rise to the bait in a situation like that.)

Explain to him the beauty of the word "practicable"? At least he recognized that a cyclist can on occasion have the Right-Of-Way... It seems to me he's both knowledgeable and an f-ing a-hole. Those are the people that cannot be changed. In that situation I worry only about my own safety and let my friend Darwinism (or the po-lice) have his way with him.

Any suggestions how to deal with this?

SMILE - then chuckle inside to yourself when you realize he has a $50,000 SUV with one of the worst electrical systems known to man. Enjoy knowing that the Volvo service department will be bending him over more times than pretty boy at Neverland Ranch enjoys. Roll on the floor knowing that with all of his machismo streaming out the lowered windows that he is buying a new that piece of **** for about $1,500 a month when you factor in gas and insurance. You, on the otherhand don't drive an overpriced Volvo.



PS - Former Volvo owner here. Thus, my board name. ;)

I would ask:

"What part of 'except when approaching a place where a right turn is authorized' do you not understand?

"What part of 'at a speed less than the speed of traffic at that time' do you not understand?"

"What part of 'substandard width lane' do you not understand?"

"What part of 'When reasonably necessary to avoid conditions that make it unsafe' do you not understand?"

Whichever apply...

Know your laws.

21202. (a) Any person operating a bicycle upon a roadway at a speed less than the normal speed of traffic moving in the same direction at that time shall ride as close as practicable to the right-hand curb or edge of the roadway except under any of the following situations:

(1) When overtaking and passing another bicycle or vehicle proceeding in the same direction.

(2) When preparing for a left turn at an intersection or into a private road or driveway.

(3) When reasonably necessary to avoid conditions (including, but not limited to, fixed or moving objects, vehicles, bicycles, pedestrians, animals, surface hazards, or substandard width lanes) that make it unsafe to continue along the right-hand curb or edge, subject to the provisions of Section 21656. For purposes of this section, a "substandard width lane" is a lane that is too narrow for a bicycle and a vehicle to travel safely side by side within the lane.

(4) When approaching a place where a right turn is authorized.


http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d11/vc21202.htm

The guy is trying to force you off the road with his SUV? He's got a deadly weapon. Are you carrying a firearm? Probably not, so there's no way you can respond with deadly force to meet his deadly force.
Let's REALLY think about this. If he was waving a firearm around while yelling at you like this, would you give him a smart-alec answer back? Yell at him? Give him a lecture? NO, you'd probably find a way to get away from him quickly. That's what you should also do if his deadly weapon is not a firearm, but something else. He's not even going to get a traffic ticket if he intentionally runs you over anyway, so why try being the first martyr?

reach down real quick with a pair of sidecutters and cut one of his valve stems. Then laught and pedal off while he tries to chase you with a flat tire.

----------

I dunno, there seems to be a whole different kind of Volvo driver now, far different from the kind of folks who bought all those cool 240's and took pride in getting a million miles out of their dependable ol' volvo etc. The new breed are the kind of ppl who used to give BMW's a bad name. Just real spoiled, "I-wannit-now" assh0les.

Pull out your cell phone and loudly recite his license plate and a description of the vehicle. If he doesn't calm down, use it for real to call the cops. If you don't have a cell phone pretend you have a very small one.

There's no reasoning with someone like this. He is not going to be receptive to the notion that he doesn't know what he's talking about. He's not behaving rationally.

Don't escalate the situation by retaliating. Didn't Mark Twain say something like, "Never get in an argument with a fool, a bystander will have trouble distinguishing you."

Forget about it right now. Don't lose another second of your life to such a total *******. Once apon a time I would have hit the guy's car with a U-lock and begged him to step out of the car so I could beat the crap out of him and jack his car. I was such loser back then! Only God kept me alive with my temper.

Now I just don't care. A couple of hillbillies in an old truck hit me in bike lane and drove off laughing about a year and half ago. Banged up the bike, I paid a couple hunderd to the doctor the insurance didn't cover, got a neat little scar on my chin, but somehow I never really got mad about it. There are so many jerks in cars that if I reply to all of them in kind, well, the stress would kill me.

My advice is to never listen to drivers. If you're threatened, pull over and stop, let them drive away.

***FULL DICLOSURE***

I'm really calm while riding and some jerk messes with me-- but I go kinda nuts of I see another cyclist getting messed with. Came really close to punching a guy becuase he was stopping MTBers from crossing *his* land while I was hiking. (it was really school district land open to cycling that he put up No Tresspassing signs on)

So I'm not really all the way blissed out yet. Oh well, nothing that riding another 10,000 miles won't fix.

I once talked into a Palm Pilot to fool some folks into thinking it was a cellfone. It worked.

Didn't Mark Twain say something like, "Never get in an argument with a fool, a bystander will have trouble distinguishing you."

Even if it wasn't Mark Twain, that is very sound advise. If I were you I would probably pull up on the sidewalk, take down the guy's number plate, car description, brief description of his appearance and call the cops. They might not be able to do anything then and there; but if you ask them nicely they may send the guy a letter outlining road rules specific to cycling on the road and if you're lucky a warning.

Well, on the long run these serene solutions are the best.
But I can't help admiring the road warriors (mostly messengers) that hit back. I've read a couple of stories of local bike messengers kicking the rear view mirror off the car of a really aggressive ******* & riding away. Of course, NO driver has ANY chance of catching a messenger in city traffic... I figure those idiots are incorrigible anyway so why not give them food for thought like "maybe bikers are not the defensless losers I can vent all my frustration on".
Best story: a training roadie was forced off the road by a b*st*rd in a car. Sprinted to catch him. Car got red light, biker got off bike, slammed car door open & shouted in: "Now get out of there" Told him to mind his driving in harsh terms. When the driver got aggressive he threatened to call the police... In 30 sec the guy was apologizing to him and said he didn't mean to harass/endanger the biker etc. That's a man!

The cell phone tactic is probably your best option, as far as calming the guy down. Returning the favour (with violence or harsh words) may just escalate the situation further, and backing down would be allowing him to win.

Yep. Cell phone. That's the way to go.

A softer version of this happend to me a while ago. I caught up with him at a red light, knocked on his window, which he rolled down, and I told the man:
--'If you're threatening to run me over because you're ten minutes late for an appointment or work, this is the worst of terrorism, and etarras (read terrorists of the basque country) are saints compared to you'--, and I went on to the front of the queue. He looked at me in the eye, but he didn't utter a word.

Hope you and every commuter never need to use any of the suggestions given in this thread.

Mister a-hole suv driver is not worth the trouble.

Pull over to the side and usher him past you with a bow and a grand sweeping gesture.

You really don't want to get into these people's problems. They are simply projecting their frustration onto you.

unclip your left foot and kick off his rear vision mirror. its the law of the jungle right? he started it.....

The cell phone tactic is probably your best option, as far as calming the guy down.
Yep... ...Cell phone. That's the way to go.

I actually did this a few years ago on one of my commutes. There were three of us commuting home in a mini-pace line. A guy pulls up beside us screaming. He passed us and pulled over, jumped out of his SUV screaming incoherently. We stopped 25 or 30 yards from him. I pulled out my cell phone, he saw this and jumped back in his cage and left.

We never saw him again. After talking the situation over with each other we concluded it must have been some sort of mistaken identification.

(he had both windows open) Any suggestions how to deal with this?

Ever try to get pepper spray out of upholstery? Me either, but I can just about bet I wouldn't like it.

I would ask:

"What part of 'except when approaching a place where a right turn is authorized' do you not understand?

"What part of 'at a speed less than the speed of traffic at that time' do you not understand?"

"What part of 'substandard width lane' do you not understand?"

"What part of 'When reasonably necessary to avoid conditions that make it unsafe' do you not understand?"

Whichever apply...

Know your laws.

21202. (a) Any person operating a bicycle upon a roadway at a speed less than the normal speed of traffic moving in the same direction at that time shall ride as close as practicable to the right-hand curb or edge of the roadway except under any of the following situations:

(1) When overtaking and passing another bicycle or vehicle proceeding in the same direction.

(2) When preparing for a left turn at an intersection or into a private road or driveway.

(3) When reasonably necessary to avoid conditions (including, but not limited to, fixed or moving objects, vehicles, bicycles, pedestrians, animals, surface hazards, or substandard width lanes) that make it unsafe to continue along the right-hand curb or edge, subject to the provisions of Section 21656. For purposes of this section, a "substandard width lane" is a lane that is too narrow for a bicycle and a vehicle to travel safely side by side within the lane.

(4) When approaching a place where a right turn is authorized.


http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d11/vc21202.htm


Never actually had to deal with one of these clowns have you... :rolleyes:

I used to carry a copy of this printed in my panniers and have given it to folks that don't have a clue... It never helped.

At least the cell phone ideas might get them off your back... quoting law won't do a thing... they have already rationalized that you don't belong on "their" road.

Look there are always unfortunate souls that have tons of bad karma. How would you react to a
snotty waitperson, indifference DMV employee, inattentive sales clerk. I usually write people
like him off as being KosmiC as*holes. Arming yourself is not going to help.

In a far less atrocious attempt to threaten me, a car honked at me the other day while I was doing nothing more than riding down the road near the shoulde. They didn't feel comfortable to pass, apparently, so they just honked at me and honked again as they passed.

I ignored them.

Ignoring them makes them be the only fool left standing.

Givi,

Had a similar situation on my recumbent trike. Nearly forced into a parked car by someone wanting to get into my lane. Passenger, young male, hanging out the window, shouting profanities to "get the f*** off the road". The car was close enough to touch. Scary, and I was not too happy about it. But they got stopped for the next red light. Directly ahead. I grabbed my cell phone and took a picture of their license plate. Pulled up next to them in the right hand turn, took another picture of the occupants (passenger still yelling).

My comments (normal voice) were:
1. I have the same right to be on the road that you do. - he's still ranting
2. Would you like to see the pictures that I have of you and your license plate? - he stops in mid rant!
3. Would you like for me to call 911 so that we can get the police here to discuss it? - no comments made

Mr. Pottymouth spent the rest of the red light in silence, looking straight ahead. I guess he wasn't used to someone responding. The driver, a woman was making his life miserable. I found it hard to not laugh.

Get a cell phone that takes pictures!
Ron

Even if you don't have the real thing, just pretend, do the cellphone picture thing, follow through, pretend to look at the image on the screen and smile, offer to show it to the cager, if that doesn't do it don't get physical, America is a vindictive place, you can get away, but what about the next biker they see?
Sorry this happened in SF, I always considered that bicycle heaven.

I haven't had any trouble with belligerent drivers like that, but I would like to imagine in the circumstances described that I would either:

ignore them. they'll yell really loud, but most people will do anything to avoid a fight. if they are really that concerned with your driving they will get out of their machine and confront you.

appease them. just because they've got to have everything their way doesn't mean you have to be like that too. in your situation i would have moved over to the side and let him pass, then jumped back in behind him if possible. perhaps the driver of the machine behind him isn't as angry at the world.

Arguing would have done you no good.

Smart reaction: Wave and smile; use cell phone to call cops; pretend to use cell phone to call cops; report license plate to cops later; ignore him.

Typical Reaction (we ain't all saints all the time): Pull out your dog spray (you do carry it, don't you?); spit into open window; give a one finger salute then ignore him.

Illegal Vigilante Response (don't try these unless you think you will enjoy sitting in a crowded jail cell in Lycra): Hit car with bike lock; spray water bottle in his open window (even better if it has a sports drink in it); other creative destructiveness.

Once, I had a guy try to cut me off by a park. I say "try" because he couldn't get up enough speed to get by me before a stop sign. He yelled at me that I was blocking the road (it was a narrow, 25mph road with parking and potholes). Within a few seconds, several people from the park came running and yelled at the driver not to "F" with cyclists.

I was cycling home the other afternoon on an empty street when I see some old baby-boomer hillbilly get into his car on a side-street. I think nothing of it until he passes within a few inches of me and a parked car! If I stuck out my elbow or knee, he would have me. I instinctively yelled, "HEY!" and he stopped. I cycled up to him and said very loudly, "YOU COULD HAVE HIT ME!" :mad: I think he was either high or had the IQ of a rock but he said back to me in a monotonic voice: "well this is the lane I'm in and if I pull over any more to the left, I'll be crossing the center divider." Never mind that the street was empty and he could have driven completely on the opposite side with no problem. Since this was the last leg of my ride, I was too tired to argue back or chase after him.

Best treament for jerks is to act like they don't exist. Don't acknowledge them, don't engage them and certainly don't make eye contact and be cool. Drives em nuts cause you aren't giving them what they want. That is validation of their behavior.

The cell phone tactic is a good one. 911 on speed dial would't be a bad idea, and get that license number (type it into your cell phone). All the while ignoring the ranting jerk. I know, easier said than done, but we're the civilized ones after all.

sun

Riding back from work today to the train station (for those familiar with San Francisco, down the 4th ave to Caltrain) some dark Volvo SUV pulls very close next to me on a stop light honking and trying to push me off with his car. The guy starts screaming (he had both windows open) that "even though bikes have the right of way you cannot occupy the full lane and have to ride close to the sidewalk". His every second word was an f-word or a-word. I was kinda shocked and told him that he is an a-hole himself. After that he speeds up trying again to push me to the side nearly hitting me.

Any suggestion what to do in situations like this? It happens so quickly that one has no time to react or do something that makes sense.
The options I see are (aggresive or polite):
- have something sharp (like a nail) attached to the frame so I can quickly scratch the offenders car
- spit into his open window
- allow him to hit me with his car, while he is moving very slow, this will scratch his SUV but might result in much more severe consequences for me
- Politely tell him to read, respect and follow traffic rules. This one is tough when someone is calling you a f-ing a-hole non-stop.
- Just throw same offensive words back on him

Any suggestions how to deal with this?

I'm sorry, man, I've never met one this bad. Sounds like you managed to keep your cool, I'm impressed...

I'd say otell him you're abut to call the cops (and feel free to say it as rudely as you want :)), get his license plate #, and do it. Mostly I ignore drivers who are jerks, but if one actually attempted to hit me or physically injure me in any way, I'd make a criminal case out of it.

I suppose this depends on how much faith you have in the local cops, but in College Park, MD where I go to school the campus cops seem to be pretty good at following up on these things.

I don't think that vigilante type responses, as some have suggested, are a good idea at all:
(a) they're only going to make you feel better briefly,
(b) they're going to piss the driver off more, and he may take it out on some other hapless cyclist 5 mintues later, and
most importantly (c) they're not going to fix the problem at all.
As far as I see it, given that their vehicle weighs 2 tons and yours 20 pounds, the only way to actually deal with such badly behaved people is to call the cops.

If it was me, I'd take down his license plate # first....then as he tried to run me off the road, I'd kick his vehicle really hard and pretend that HE hit me! Fall down gently towards the sidewalk and yell, "you stupid s.o.b. scum of the earth, p.o.s. you tried to kill me!" Get some witnesses and then SUE HIS ASS!!! :mad: :mad: :mad:

"well this is the lane I'm in and if I pull over any more to the left, I'll be crossing the center divider."

I had on old guy do the exact same thing to me. We exchanged words, but I also reported him to the Police. They were very good and pointed out that (down here) a driver can cross a centre divider if it is safe, to avoid having a collision i.e. hitting a cyclist. They must have paid him a visit because a few weeks later on a different road he passed me quite safely.

CHEERS.

Mark

hmmm anyone know where they sell those skull-n-crossbones jerseys with "Don't F*ck With Me" plastered across the back?

or maybe "Try It And I Will Sue Your *ss" jerseys?

here's what i do....

if they're just hassling me verbally, i just wave and say thank you. this seems to confuse people to the point where they don't know what to say next. by the time that they figure it out, i'm gone.

if they're threatening physical violence with their $40k weapon, i just pull off, hop up on the sidewalk (or whatever's safe), whip out the cellphone and make like i'm going to call the cops. if they keep it up, i make the call, but i've only had to do that twice in the 10-15 times that i've had to do this in the last ten years.

since i also carry a tiny digital camera on the strap of my messenger bag along with the phone, i've also taken it out taken a quick shot of the car with license plate in view.

"well this is the lane I'm in and if I pull over any more to the left, I'll be crossing the center divider."

Interesting. I wonder if this is a common belief among cagers, that crossing the centerline is to be avoided all costs. Yesterday I heard a car approaching me from behind. I was pretty far to the right, about 18" off the shoulder. He honked from a decent distance back, which is usually a good thing, but then passed me at 50 mph, centered in our lane, with about 6" between his door and my elbow. What, the honk was to warn me that you're about to do something stupid and put my life in danger?

Nothing to do with biking, but anyway:
I was driving in a not so great neighborhood once and a car with several people in it pulled up next to me at a stop light. I was just sitting there enjoying one more tune before work when I heard, clicky-click. I looked and the freaks were throwing sticks at my window! I have a temper but decided to ignore it. They kept it up though, so I rolled down my window and threw my just-finiahed cigarette at the clever passenger. Pretty close to an eye!
Anyway the shock on their faces was priceless. They fumbled for the smoke to throw back, but by then I had my window up and the light turned green. Ha ha. Think of that next time someone decides to f*ck with a scrawny looking guy. Never know who can be a psycho!

Interesting. I wonder if this is a common belief among cagers, that crossing the centerline is to be avoided all costs.

I think the common belief is that cyclists are not fellow road users, but instead more like obstacles.

I have to admit that whenever I drive my car to work and pass a cyclist, I will attempt to pass by not crossing the laneline if I think there is enough room to do so with what I consider to be adequate clearance. Of course what a driver considers to be adequate clearance may not be adequate from the bikers point of view.

As to deciding on an appropriate response, I would take into consideration the fact that chances are this guy is a regular commuter and you will be crossing paths again. The cell phone idea sounds good to me.

He thinks he is right, he threatened you with a deadly weapon. Get off the road as soon as it is safe to protect yourself. Get the plate number and do the best you can with the police. Maybe start carrying a camera phone. My digital camera takes 2 minute movies. I could record what he said. That might work with the police. When I take flash pictures of people doing something wrong they see the flash and immediately retreat.

Under no circumstances do the following, especially if he is stuck in traffic and you can get away...

a clean looking Volvo you say?........take the top off your water bottle and toss the entire bottle into the open window. Nothing like an open bottle on the leather seat or the carpet to make life miserable. Try for the back seat if you can. This will keep him busy for a while. That might even make him stop to try and control the spill. Oh yeah .... start drinking grape juice.
If he does stop in traffic, don't take the orange you were going to have for lunch and jam it up his tailpipe. The car will stall and not start if you kick it in there good.

Did you know with a winter glove on you can break a headlight?