Classic & Vintage - The truth behind the downfall of Schwinn...

Anyone here superstitious?

"On September 11, 2001, Pacific Cycle, the nation's largest importer of quality bicycles, purchased the Schwinn/GT Corporation out of bankruptcy court, and united the two brands with the company's other quality lines like Mongoose, Mongoose Pro, Roadmaster and Pacific."

Just thought this was a little bizarre. I was cruising the site looking for any vintage resources for 1972 Opaque Green paint (need some touch-up work on my Super Sport). I'll email 'em and post back when I get a reply.

Twe's off to scour the Internet for the Pacific Cycles/al Qaeda connection. :D

Hey mods, is it too late to change my member name?!??

Definition: Quality - degree of excellence.

Thanks guys. I realized after posting I might get flamed. It's definitely a joke. I also the like the part about Pacific's "quality" bikes. Didn't know they owned Mongoose. Damn, I have two. Oh, well. Anyways, back to Google...I might've found something...

P.S. Schwinn doesn't stock old paint, so I asked if they had any leads on where to find some. Any suggestions here?

I have never been able to find any paint that was an "exact" match for old paint. And, every year, "old" paint changes its color a bit. When I have used colors that "almost" match, it simply draws attention to what a third-rate painter I am.

So, for touching up "dime" sized spots, and nicks and scratches, I just rub the old paint clean with alcohol and touch it up with clear fingernail polish. If I were a fanatic about color matching, I would go with fingernail polish. Every color you can imagine. Many colors you can't imagine. Easy to remove if you mess up.

Nail polish probably about as durable as a typical factory clearcoat. I usually let the "base" coat dry, and then put on a second coat. Soap and water won't take it off. But, nail polish comes off easily with nail polish remover.

I was wondering about just clearcoating, but didn't want to deal with the hassle of stripping the components. How permanent is the fingernail polish?

Have you looked at bunchobikes.com? He shows his Phantom being painted with PPG's Omni LV. I'm not a Schwinn expert but the pictures look purty.

Fortunately, I ride a REAL Schwinn. Given what subsequently happened to the company, I shall probably never buy a NEW Schwinn, but a red-white-and-blue late 1980s Paramount road bike would complement my mountain bike nicely. :)

Fortunately, I ride a REAL Schwinn. Given what subsequently happened to the company, I shall probably never buy a NEW Schwinn, but a red-white-and-blue late 1980s Paramount road bike would complement my mountain bike nicely. :)

Well, Schwinn fans could argue a long time over what is "a real Schwinn". I know that a bike built in the Chicago plant in the '70's is a "real Schwinn". I'd probably accept that a bike built during the '80's in their "let's hide from fair wages" factory in Mississippi is a real Schwinn.

But, after the Mississippi plant closed, Schwinn became a "decal" operation. They simply bought bikes made in Asia, and slapped decals on them. The small number of bikes built by Waterford when it was owned by Schwinn were probably the last "real" Schwinns. So, the last real Schwinn was the final bike to leave Waterford with the name "Schwinn" on its frame.

I bought a new Schwinn last year and have never regretted it. Full Ultegra except the Dura Ace rear derailleur. The bike rides flawlessly. I rode a lot of bikes before settling on the Schwinn, but I’m glad I did. The ’73 still rides great too! So now I can choose which kind of ride I want, steel or aluminum, depending on my mood.

I've got a friend with a year old Schwinn road bike. She loves it.

El,

Does waterford have Touch up paint for old schwinns? they
do restorations so it wouldn't surprize me.

Marty

I found a book in the library yesterday.

"no hands,the rise and fall of the schwinn bicycle company,and american institution"
by judith crown and glenn coleman

very enlightning.it would seem the days of selling the schwinn name in dept stores has come full circle,as thats how they started. it also would seem like they were responsable for their own downfall.a great read overall.

october 1973 "this is hardley a good time to start promoting dirtbiking and stunt riding,which do involve increased risk of injury to the rider." ray burch,schwinn exec.

they were scared to jump on the train that was BMX and mountain bike that they set in motion with the stingray! they were the pen of their own demise! in hind sit,someone should go kick ol ray in the nuts for that thinking!

october 1973 "this is hardley a good time to start promoting dirtbiking and stunt riding,which do involve increased risk of injury to the rider." ray burch,schwinn exec.

they were scared to jump on the train that was BMX and mountain bike that they set in motion with the stingray! they were the pen of their own demise! in hind sit,someone should go kick ol ray in the nuts for that thinking!

It's just another case of a large corporation losing touch with market dynamics. Look around and see it (by the victims' absence) almost everywhere.

Never owned a Schwinn myself, but I've outridden plenty of them. :p I'll leave you nostalgians to simmer in the juices of "what once was in Chicago/Waterford". My preferred marque can boast of a few glory years on the European tour before they were overtaken. :D

Never owned a Schwinn myself, but I've outridden plenty of them.

Don't be too smug; on a good downhill, they'll pass you like you were tied to a tree. ;)

It's just another case of a large corporation losing touch with market dynamics. Look around and see it (by the victims' absence) almost everywhere.

Perhaps, instead, it has something to do with an good American corporation being unable to compete with third-world slave labor wages. Schwinn made good quality bikes for many years. In the end, there was no way for them to compete... especially in the mass market.

Perhaps, instead, it has something to do with an good American corporation being unable to compete with third-world slave labor wages. Schwinn made good quality bikes for many years. In the end, there was no way for them to compete... especially in the mass market.

In this case, I think it was some of both. The Japanese were able to win on price, but Schwinn was a bit behind the curve with realizing lightweights were superceding their old bread and butter - the heavy, indestructible battle-tanks. From the excerpt of the memo up the thread, it looks like they misread the market on BMX/Mountain bikes too.

Please bear in mind, I'm not saying they didn't make some good products - but there are two universal rules at work here.

Nothing man creates lasts forever.
Everything happens for a reason.

In this case, I think it was some of both. The Japanese were able to win on price, but Schwinn was a bit behind the curve with realizing lightweights were superceding their old bread and butter - the heavy, indestructible battle-tanks.

Agreed.

I just get a little tired of some of the attacks on Schwinn as if they're bad guys who deserve ridicule... usually by people too young to remember when Schwinn was a great company.

I still remember getting my first Schwinn more than forty years ago. It was a great bike... reliable, comfortable and fast enough to keep me happy. I wish I had it now.

My bike's a "real" Scwhinn (handbuilt, too!), but I've never ridden a new one. All I know is that they are (mostly) a dept. store bike, although I've seen some high-end new road bikes that looked pretty nice.

I'll check those leads on paint...Heh, and the paint is leaded, too...

No luck anywhere. Still waiting on Schwinn, not expecting much. I might just start looking around for something clear. Or, if I just wax it more often, will I protect my rust spots?

I think during the '50s and '60s, Schwinn made a product well suited for its clientele; well made, and sturdy enough to absorb the punishment it was likely to receive. I owned several Schwinn 'lightweights' as a teenager, and I doubt that the more sophisticated bikes I have now would have stood up as well -- and I was one of the more careful of my crowd in terms of riding and maintenance.

I doubt that the more sophisticated bikes I have now would have stood up as well -- and I was one of the more careful of my crowd in terms of riding and maintenance.

I think people need to understand the difference between "golden age" Chicago Schwinns and the X-Mart bikes of today. Although the ordinary Schwinns were modestly priced bikes aimed at the general market, they were built and sold with a lot of care. They were very reliable... unlike today's X-Mart bikes which tend to disintegrate fairly quickly.

The 3-speed Schwinn "English Racer" I got when I was twelve years old was my lifeline for years. It stayed with me until grad school when some neighborhood punks stole it and ripped it to shreds. That is the bike I would love to have again.

Agreed.

I just get a little tired of some of the attacks on Schwinn as if they're bad guys who deserve ridicule... usually by people too young to remember when Schwinn was a great company.

I still remember getting my first Schwinn more than forty years ago. It was a great bike... reliable, comfortable and fast enough to keep me happy. I wish I had it now.
I dont want it to seem like I think they were bad guys. in fact I am to young to remember the glory days,but I currently own and cherish 7 different chicago built models. I never knew it,but after reading this book,it is clear that the "family" refused to follow trends. they tried to set the trends and were very succesfull with some.(stingray) in the later years they also refused to update the chicago plant with modern equipment to keep up with the smaller upstarts like mongoose,trek,and specialized. not to mention fisher,cunningham,ritchie,and breezer were all growing very fast. the contemplated a new factory in tulsa and only after conditions got so bad the employess got the UAW in the plant did the do anything about it.

there is no 2 ways about it,and the facts printed in the book make it perfectly clear. the business was always run by the family. in the early years,they were commited and driven and still lived humbly,despit the millions they made. the later members of the family tht ran the company lived it up.after all ,they were born with a silver spoke in their mouths. the didnt want to pay a good wage,offer any kind of retirment or pension,like was done in the early years. the also would not modernize the factory to keep up with modern demands. they insisted the way they did it was right,and by the time they realized this it was too late. when they turned to the asian market,it was already too late,they became a follower,that just couldnt keep up. the children of ignaz schwinn drove his company to bankruptcy by refusing to do respond to what the market wanted. until the very end,they thought they set the market,they told everyone what was"right" and how to do it. they were schwinn...how could they be wrong?

it does sound like an attack,but its not.its a fact. the beook is really a good one and I would recomend it to any enthusiast,even if they can pass 'em on the hills!

The irony of it all, is that the Schwinn name actually ended up in the hands of a next door neighbor. Last year, Pacific Cycle was bought by Dorel Industries, a Canadian corporation. Pacific Cycle has leased the brand name to another Canadian company. Schwinns are now designed in Canada, but manufactured in Vietnam and China.

Canada has a suprisingly robust bicycle industry. While many of the Canadian brands contract the manufacturing offshore, there is still a suprising amount of frame manufacture done in the country. Raleigh still has a facility there and even the entry level $80 US models have the frames built in the Great White North. The high end is nicely covered by companies like Argon 18, Marinoni and Cervelo, who provide the frames for CSC, the team classification winners in last year's Tour de France.

As John E. implies, now might be a good time to start hoarding the Chicago Schwinns you find. There might be a good market for them in the near future.

While the current Schwinn models are primarily entry level oriented, I have to say that whomever is building them is doing a good job. I'd even say that they are a quality bicycle, going by the the industry definition: quality = conformance to requirements.

it does sound like an attack,but its not.its a fact. the book is really a good one and I would recomend it to any enthusiast,even if they can pass 'em on the hills!

Actually, I think your opinion is well-reasoned and constructive. What you say makes a lot of sense.

El Twe: Have you tried the Schwinn restoration or collector's forums:

http://www.schwinnbike.com/heritage/

I did, but didn't find much. They don't seem to like BikeForums, though...I submitted an "Ask Schwinn" question, but no luck so far...

Hey mods, is it too late to change my member name?!??

Sure. Tomorrow, I'll change it to PacificCyclebikelove.

No problem. I got your back.

:D

Koffee

Schwinn often lagged behind the trends. The Varsinentals did come out in mid-1960, well before the big bike boom, but look how hard Keith Kingbay had to fight with Frank Schwinn to get the first production run built. My KOM-10 has plenty of evolutionary dead ends, such as a RollerCam front brake and an under-chainstay Shimano U-brake, but it is a sharp-looking bike and a pleasure to ride.

I did, but didn't find much. They don't seem to like BikeForums, though...I submitted an "Ask Schwinn" question, but no luck so far...

I think it's too diverse of a crowd for them. I mean, there are people here who have never ridden a Stingray! :eek:

I mean, there are people here who have never ridden a Stingray! :eek:

And some who have, but won't admit it. :lol:

I need a stingray. and a paramount. and a giant built high sierra..........

I think it's too diverse of a crowd for them. I mean, there are people here who have never ridden a Stingray! :eek:

Speaking of which, have you seen or ridden one of the new Stingrays? A total pain to ride, but an interesting styling exercise. A lot of those will be collecting dust in garages or on sales floors.

Speaking of which, have you seen or ridden one of the new Stingrays? A total pain to ride, but an interesting styling exercise. A lot of those will be collecting dust in garages or on sales floors.

I rode the original Stingrays when they first came out when I was a kid. They were a lot of fun.

I tried to ride the new adult Stingray. I didn't like it at all. It's basically a chopper without an engine. It has a horrid turning radius. I can't imagine why anyone would want one except for future collector's value.

Sure. Tomorrow, I'll change it to PacificCyclebikelove.

Please, Koffee, I'm trying to eat dinner here!!! :cry:

I've just been hoping that my fellow BF bretheren realize my name refers to pre-2000 Pacific stuff. :o



Don't be too smug; on a good downhill, they'll pass you like you were tied to a tree

:roflmao:



El Twe: Have you tried the Schwinn restoration or collector's forums?

You beat me to it. I've been a member over there for years. I know you said you tried, did you try the restoration forum? They really should be able to hook you up. They really know their stuff!

You guys have all really had some great (true) stuff to say about the company. I'm impressed!

[QUOTE=el twe]Anyone here superstitious?

"On September 11, 2001, Pacific Cycle, the nation's largest importer of quality bicycles, purchased the Schwinn/GT Corporation out of bankruptcy court, and united the two brands with the company's other quality lines like Mongoose, Mongoose Pro, Roadmaster and Pacific."

Yeah,
I remember personally filing that one. I was a bike messenger in Milwaukee, (home of the eastern district of WI federal court system) from 1997, to december of 2003. I personally delivered the bankrupcy filing, well... at least one of them, I believe they filed several times though. I was sad that day.

I found a book in the library yesterday.

"no hands,the rise and fall of the schwinn bicycle company,and american institution"
by judith crown and glenn coleman

very enlightning.it would seem the days of selling the schwinn name in dept stores has come full circle,as thats how they started. it also would seem like they were responsable for their own downfall.a great read overall.

october 1973 "this is hardley a good time to start promoting dirtbiking and stunt riding,which do involve increased risk of injury to the rider." ray burch,schwinn exec.

they were scared to jump on the train that was BMX and mountain bike that they set in motion with the stingray! they were the pen of their own demise! in hind sit,someone should go kick ol ray in the nuts for that thinking!

I read that book when it first came out, I highly recommend it to anyone interested in how NOT to run a business.

Schwinn's biggest problem was their family tradition of "primogeniture", passing control of the company down to the eldest son. This is not a problem if the eldest son has at least two brain cells in his head, but makes things tough if the eldest is someone like Richard Schwinn. The best thing I can say about Richard Schwinn is that he's an arrogant jerk.

It's easy for people who don't know anything about the history of the Schwinn Bicycle Company to make fun, but in their day Schwinn was THE bicycle company.

I just rebuilt my Continental with new paint, alloy rims and a modern three piece crank. Some folks may say that I'm only putting lipstick on a pig, but I just love the way that pig rides. That Varsinetal frame must have 10,000 miles on it and it shows zero signs of stress or damage. Try and do that with any "modern" frame.

I just rebuilt my Continental with new paint, alloy rims and a modern three piece crank. Some folks may say that I'm only putting lipstick on a pig, but I just love the way that pig rides. That Varsinetal frame must have 10,000 miles on it and it shows zero signs of stress or damage. Try and do that with any "modern" frame.

Kick @ss!

but makes things tough if the eldest is someone like Richard Schwinn

Are you sure you're not thinking of Ed Schwinn? As I recall, it was he who was largely responsible for ruining the company(at least according to "No Hands". Richard is presently part owner of Waterford Precision Bicycles. Don't know whatever became of Eddy.

Wax won't protect bare metal very well. Its just to give it shine and make the water bead up.

Neither will primer, primer is very porus, its intended to give the paint something to grip.

Consider visiting a model shop and getting a little bottle of Testors model paint that matches as closely as you an. Use a toothpick or small brush to apply. Let dry and wax.

Are you sure you're not thinking of Ed Schwinn? As I recall, it was he who was largely responsible for ruining the company(at least according to "No Hands". Richard is presently part owner of Waterford Precision Bicycles. Don't know whatever became of Eddy.

I believe you are correct, I may have my Schwinns mixed-up. Its been years since I read the book.

Testor's...Hadn't thought of that...Thanks!

Schwinn's biggest problem was their family tradition of "primogeniture", passing control of the company down to the eldest son. This is not a problem if the eldest son has at least two brain cells in his head, but makes things tough if the eldest is someone like Richard Schwinn. The best thing I can say about Richard Schwinn is that he's an arrogant jerk....



I think you are confused about Richard's role in the company. He was not the "key" person during the critical time periods of the 1980's. And, NONE of the American companies that were building millions of bikes in the USA during the 1960's and 1970's survived. Their "bread and butter" was bike models in the $50 to $300 price range. The low-cost of making bikes in Asia made it impossible for an American company to survive off the "profits" of making bikes in the USA targeted at that price range.

The "new" companies, such as Trek and Cannondale, grew and prospered with the profits from the sale of "high end" bike that currently retail for over $1,000. For Schwinn to have survived under family ownership, it would have needed to go to the "Pacific" model: putting the Schwinn name on communist-made slock sold at Wal-Mart and K-Mart. The fact the family did not do so is something we should all understand and respect.

I think you are confused about Richard's role in the company. He was not the "key" person during the critical time periods of the 1980's. And, NONE of the American companies that were building millions of bikes in the USA during the 1960's and 1970's survived. Their "bread and butter" was bike models in the $50 to $300 price range. The low-cost of making bikes in Asia made it impossible for an American company to survive off the "profits" of making bikes in the USA targeted at that price range.


Blame for the demise of the Schwinn Bicycle Company can be laid at the feet of the last couple of generations of Schwinn family management. Schwinn was late to market with low cost light-weight road bikes, BMX and mountain bikes. Schwinn also procrastinated when it came to moving mass market bike production off shore and stupidly continued to produce said bikes here in the USA, all the while hoping that Government policy would reimpose high tariffs on Asian imports.



The "new" companies, such as Trek and Cannondale, grew and prospered with the profits from the sale of "high end" bike that currently retail for over $1,000. For Schwinn to have survived under family ownership, it would have needed to go to the "Pacific" model: putting the Schwinn name on communist-made slock sold at Wal-Mart and K-Mart. The fact the family did not do so is something we should all understand and respect.

Schwinn could have prospered by moving their mass-market bike production off shore while continuing high end bike production here in the USA. Schwinn did not altruistically immolate itself, as you imply, by refusing to move production off shore -- Schwinn had been importing Asian bikes since the 1970s. Schwinn's problems, as usual, were in not being able to divine market trends and then reacting very slowly when those trends became obvious.

Ultimately Schwinn was done in by the kind of poor management that is assured by primogeniture. The first couple of generations of a successful family business are usually people who boot-strapped their way up. The generations that follow are usually arrogant, dim little princes born with silver spoons in their mouths. It only takes one Prince Charles to undo an entire dynasty.