Singlespeed & Fixed Gear - Lugged Frame Suggestions

Next year I turn 60.
That seems like a good reason to build a classic fixed gear bike.
We think alike, eh?

I need a frame, a lugged steel frame with traditional geometry that doesn't cost a fortune.
A DeBernardi track frame would fit the bill perfectly if the fork would accept a front brake.
That doesn't seem the case, but perhaps someone has an idea...

So, a custom made lugged steel frame and fork, with some consideration for keeping the cost reasonable?

Suggestions, with a URL, please?

how much is "reasonable"?

The World Class Cycles website says you can get a custom Bob Jackson track frame starting at $800.

gotta say I saw my first Jonny Cycles in person this weekend and they're boooootiful.
http://www.jonnycycles.com/
Check out those bling stems. Mrowl.

The World Class Cycles website says you can get a custom Bob Jackson track frame starting at $800.

good suggestion. how about vanilla or circle a? does rivendell make custom stuff? either way, their single speed/fixies frames are beautiful and would make a perfect classic.

the de bernardi thron track frames have both front and rear brake provisions, actually... the geometry, though, may be a bit too stiff at 74 ht, 75 st. may i suggest a de bernardi road frame? bulltek sports has a variety of brain and sl tubed de bernardi road frames. have a look (http://www.bullteksports.com/catalog/pictures/DeBernardi/Frames.htm).

I second the Jonny Cycle suggestion. Nice frames, and Jonny is a super cool guy.

www.circleacycles.com - Providence, RI

Although their website is perpetually down, Andante bicycles in Florida will make a custom lugged steel track frame (their "eco" model) for around $500. I believe Jose R from this forum is in proud posession of one and has nothing but good things to say about it.

There is a guy in he bay area who advertises on both eBay and Craigslist from time to time who does lugged steel frames for (I think) $600. They're not custom, and they come in a few different sizes.

By "traditional" geometry, do you mean traditional track geometry?

I believe there was a thread a while back about track frames around the $500 mark... there are probably a lot of suggestions in that thread that might fit your bill.

m.

Crust & crumb wrote:

"...de bernardi thron track frames have both front and rear brake provisions..."

If someone could confirm that?

-----

Isotopsope asked:

"How much is reasonable?"

Under $1200, closer to $1000.

That puts Vanilla and Rivendell out of the running, I think.

Jonnycycles and Circle A have some scary beautiful bikes on their site, and no mention of price.

A Bob Jackson at $800, with lugs?
I'll chase that one down.
Seems too good.

Jonny Cycle are around $1000, I believe it says on the site. Or you could email Jon. He responds quickly.

Yes, World Class Cycles, Bob Jackson Vigorelli, $800.

Amazing.

Traditional, to me, means seat stays attached to the conventional place on the seat tube.

As far as traditional head tube angles, doesn't my Pista fairly typify track angles?
I'd like to know.

ken, if you were to order a de bernardi from world class as i recently did, it'll definitely be drilled, front and rear. i remember distinctly the wretched pangs of despair i felt upon opening my package and realizing such. oh, also note that the de bernardi's paint is less than poor quality.

so yeah, bob jackson...

The World Class Cycles website says you can get a custom Bob Jackson track frame starting at $800.
You can get an "off-the-peg" Bob Jackson Vigorelli Track 631 in your choice of about 60 colors (it's just a guess, I didn't actually count them) for ~$550 (plus shipping from the UK). I wish I'd known this before I spent twice that on a Gunnar. Pic:http://www.bobjacksoncycles.co.uk/images/vigore600.JPG
*Edit: I forgot to include a link (http://www.bobjacksoncycles.co.uk/product_info.php?cPath=28&products_id=307).

In addition to the suggestions above, I'd keep an eye on the usual second hand suspects- cl, ebay, etc. There is a lot of classic track steel that goes for a grand or less.

I met a guy who had a catastrophc failure on a de bernardi frame. It snapped mid tube after a year of riding. After contacting them they offered to sell him a new one at 1/2 off retail (which was thier cost) and this was after a decent amout of grief on his end. While the tube failure is not thier fault they should have given him a new frame. This has been the only complaint about them that I've heard except for the paint issue.

ah yes, the "off the peg" bob jackson frames. great value- shipping cost, though?

as for angles, traditional (track) we'll put at 75 ht, 75 st (roughly). so, yes, i'd say the pista fairly typifies track angles.

I'll recommend Bob Jackson or Mercian, but I'm biased being in the UK. They both accept front brakes, reynolds steel, comfy 74 degree geometry, and have been making frames forever that last forever. Mercian will give more options, but costs a bit more.
I've been trying to decide between the two for nearly a year now... After seeing trespasser's mercian, I think my mind is made up.

Although their website is perpetually down, Andante bicycles in Florida will make a custom lugged steel track frame (their "eco" model) for around $500. I believe Jose R from this forum is in proud posession of one and has nothing but good things to say about it.

m.

Yep. $400 for the frame. ~$45 for the SS track ends. ~$45 for custom paint job. It fits like a glove and rides real well. I chose roadish geometry, since I will be using it mostly as a commuter/training bike. So, it has a relaxed wheelbase.

But, and this is a BIG but; I noticed a problem with the rear triangle, wrt the centering of the wheel between the seatstays. As I centered the back wheel based on the chainstays, it was off center relative to the seatstays. So I took the bike to Conrads here in the city (who have a jig table) to have the rear frame alignment checked out. It turns out one of the seatstays is longer than the other by about 2cms! Whoever actually built the frame, did a sh*t job. Now, the bike is rideable, and I haven't noticed any problems with tracking with no hands riding, so its not that big of a problem. But, but, its a problem I can't live with.

So, I e-mailed Johnny Coast of Coast Cycles, in Brooklyn, and will be taking the frame in for a consultation, to see how much it would cost to fix and how much work will be involved.

Its unfortunate because I love the way it rides, feels and fits, and I love the paint job design. But it is what it is.

WRT Ken's original question, I think $800-1,200 is a good range for a good quality custom frame with decent tubing.

And I would recommend buying from a local framebuilder, if possible, or getting a custom fitting if you don't already know your sizing criteria.

www.vanillabicycles.com

sweeeeeeet

www.vanillabicycles.com

sweeeeeeet

sweet indeed, but:




"How much is reasonable?"

Under $1200, closer to $1000.

That puts Vanilla and Rivendell out of the running, I think.

Ken- are you scrapping the steamroller icebike project?

Waterford

BostonFixed asked:

"Ken- are you scrapping the steamroller icebike project?"

Yes, sorta.

After all that research and finding out it would work, the family asked me to postpone it for a year.
For the really nasty days I have a very competent geared ice bike from last year, with all the lights, fenders and studded tires.
I test rode it the other day and it feels creepy after riding fixed.
Like, slimy?
Vague?
Anyway, if I have to ride a geared bike for ten or twelve days next winter, I'll do it and feel thankful for it.

But, this time next spring...:)

Many more options presented in this thread than I would have expected.
This seems very doable.

I could do the frame around income tax time (I file electronically on Feb 2nd) and then the components a little later.

But, and this is a BIG but; I noticed a problem with the rear triangle, wrt the centering of the wheel between the seatstays.

[...]

So, I e-mailed Johnny Coast of Coast Cycles, in Brooklyn, and will be taking the frame in for a consultation, to see how much it would cost to fix and how much work will be involved.


That seems like a problem that Andante should be tripping over themselves to fix. Have you contacted them about it?

Also, do you have any pictures of the frame? The photos on their site are (were?) total poo.

m.

I have a custom Rock Lobster track and am extremely happy with it. Check the website and Give Paul Sadoff a call if you want to talk about lugs...I know he likes doing them (although I chose Reynolds 853 tigged - mine was $950 w/Columbus-tubed straight blade fork).
http://rocklobstercycles.com/

You should support the locals, up here in the Northwest. Then you can get a custom frame and know the builder.

Personally, I think Erickson carves some very sexy lugs on his builds:
http://www.sandsmachine.com/bp_erick.htm
http://www.bicycletrader.com/archives/18articles.html#03
http://www.ericksoncycles.com/

In Oregon, you could talk to Jeff Lyon. He builds a solid, sexy bike, and is inexpensive:
http://www.lyonsport.com/

Rivendell makes a nice bike:
http://www.rivendellbicycles.com/

does johnny coast of coast cycles have a site? i saw him mentioned here but can't find a site

Oh man, an off-the-shelf Bob Jackson is $550? I think I found my next frame. ;)

Though that next frame was supposed to be a Circle A.

I'll have to weight my options.

Curse you Ken! For bringing this up! :)

Though isotopesope wants me to get a Ground Up...

I met a guy who had a catastrophc failure on a de bernardi frame. It snapped mid tube after a year of riding. After contacting them they offered to sell him a new one at 1/2 off retail (which was thier cost) and this was after a decent amout of grief on his end. While the tube failure is not thier fault they should have given him a new frame. This has been the only complaint about them that I've heard except for the paint issue.

the only de bernardi frame I've ever seen had a cracked bottom bracket where it met the seat tube. hmm...

I don't know much about DeBernardi, and would never buy one, simply because the paint job is SO BAD. The stuff will flake off if you flick it with your fingernail. Seriously, if they skimp that much on the paint, what else did they skimp on?


edited note: I say this about their track frames. I have seen people riding their road frames, and they all looked pretty fantastic. They must paint them differently or something.

Man, if I was turning 60, I'd be looking at something better than a DeBernardi or Bob Jackson. If you've only got a grand to spend, I'd recomend a TIG'd frame made from Columbus Zona. Lugged frames at that price are pretty nasty.

yeah, my next frame is almost definately gonna be a circle a.

jonny bikes are hot as well. i saw one this weekend (the green one on his site) and thought it looked so nice that i actually had a dream about it that night!

does johnny coast of coast cycles have a site? i saw him mentioned here but can't find a site

See:

http://www.coastouttabrooklyn.com/

That seems like a problem that Andante should be tripping over themselves to fix. Have you contacted them about it?

Also, do you have any pictures of the frame? The photos on their site are (were?) total poo.

m.

Nope. Didn't want to bother. Not worth the effort. I would rather personally oversee any fixes myself.

http://www.fototime.com/46F046252190A78/standard.jpg

I apologize for the quality. Took real quick snaps. To see a few more, just go to fototime (http://www.fototime.com/) , login as guest by typing my hotmail address: jose_r66 *at* hotmail *dot* com. Open the "track bike" album. The bike, obviously, is still a work in progress.

Man, if I was turning 60, I'd be looking at something better than a DeBernardi or Bob Jackson. If you've only got a grand to spend, I'd recomend a TIG'd frame made from Columbus Zona. Lugged frames at that price are pretty nasty.

i disagree wholeheartedly. a custom *lugged* mercian super vigorelli, utilizing reynolds 853 tubing, is approximately $1000. surely i'd never think of referring to such a frame as "pretty nasty".

Why don't you build your own frame? I think it would be a blast to research and build my own lugged frame. There is tons of info on the web and the frame builders forum (or list serve I forget). I'm starting to look in to it now.

As I actually know what 1000 bucks buys you - from a raw materials, labour, jigging, quality of production, disbursement etc etc standpoint, believe me when I say you want TIG at that price. The quality is much better.

However, if you think a Mercian is just a more sensible option than say a Kirk or a Sachs or a Eisentraut because it's cheaper, then you're kidding yourself. If you've got a spare moment, here's a good example. Check out 'sorebutt's' (from the roadie forum) 'Traut vs this close up pic of the Mercian you mentioned.

http://www.litman.com/bikes/seat%20clamp%20big.jpg
http://www.merciancycles.com/frame_images/super_vigorelli_v4.jpg

but then you'd be riding a tig welded bike.

Next year I turn 60.
That seems like a good reason to build a classic fixed gear bike.
We think alike, eh?

I need a frame, a lugged steel frame with traditional geometry that doesn't cost a fortune.
A DeBernardi track frame would fit the bill perfectly if the fork would accept a front brake.
That doesn't seem the case, but perhaps someone has an idea...

So, a custom made lugged steel frame and fork, with some consideration for keeping the cost reasonable?

Suggestions, with a URL, please?

It's always nice to have a look at the local folks, and Oregon has some sweet framebuilders:

Desalvo (http://www.desalvocycles.com)
Lyon (http://www.lyonsport.com)

Lyon's are beautiful and the folks at DeSalvo are sweet. If they don't excite you though, here's a list of a
jillion builders including our own Don Walker. (http://www.incywincy.com/default?p=29903)

Take care...

Jim

nobody's mentioned Don Walker yet?

edit, oh wait. jimv just did

As I actually know what 1000 bucks buys you - from a raw materials, labour, jigging, quality of production, disbursement etc etc standpoint, believe me when I say you want TIG at that price. The quality is much better.

However, if you think a Mercian is just a more sensible option than say a Kirk or a Sachs or a Eisentraut because it's cheaper, then you're kidding yourself. If you've got a spare moment, here's a good example. Check out 'sorebutt's' (from the roadie forum) 'Traut vs this close up pic of the Mercian you mentioned.


While I have to agree that TIG would give you better quality tubing for the price than lugged, I don't like the way you are dissing Mercian. Mercian makes very nice frames in traditional way, like a lot of other British builders. They are not boutique builders like Sachs or Vanilla, but they are doing this for 60 years, they know what they are doing.
And that photo of mercian doesn't do any justice.
http://www.classicrendezvous.com/images/British/Mercian/MercnD5L.jpg
http://www.classicrendezvous.com/images/British/Mercian/MercnD4L.jpg
http://www.classicrendezvous.com/images/British/Mercian/MercnD3L.jpg

thylacine: i also have an understanding what 1000 dollars will buy you. i'm not debating the fact that a tig'd frame will have a better price to quality ratio than lugged. you mentioned too, however, that "Lugged frames at that price ($1000) are pretty nasty". a bit of a sweeping generalization, i thought, and this is where the discrepancy presents itself.

As I actually know what 1000 bucks buys you - from a raw materials, labour, jigging, quality of production, disbursement etc etc standpoint, believe me when I say you want TIG at that price. The quality is much better.

However, if you think a Mercian is just a more sensible option than say a Kirk or a Sachs or a Eisentraut because it's cheaper, then you're kidding yourself. If you've got a spare moment, here's a good example. Check out 'sorebutt's' (from the roadie forum) 'Traut vs this close up pic of the Mercian you mentioned.


Blech, fastback seat stays.
Even if the 'Traut has a higher level of finishing, does smoother sanded lugs make for better ride quality?

This thread has provided me with more options than I thought probable.

I don't understand the TIG vs Lug discussion, nor the message in Thylacine's posted photos.

I had assumed that lugged frames, albeit slightly heavier, do not heat distress the tubing as much as does TIG welding.
I suspect I don't understand TIG welding.

I'll do a quick search on TIG welding, and perhaps someone can make a few illuminating comments.

If a TIG'ed frame becomes an option for you, I would check out a steel Marinoni Pista. Marinonis are beautiful bikes and the newer TIG welded ones I've seen are no exception. Columbus Zona tubing, lots of paint/chrome options. A frame+fork goes for about $675CDN. They can do full custom geometry, but I'm not sure how much (if anything) that adds to the cost.

m.

This thread has provided me with more options than I thought probable.

I don't understand the TIG vs Lug discussion, nor the message in Thylacine's posted photos.

I had assumed that lugged frames, albeit slightly heavier, do not heat distress the tubing as much as does TIG welding.
I suspect I don't understand TIG welding.

I'll do a quick search on TIG welding, and perhaps someone can make a few illuminating comments.

First, I am not a framebuilder but I do own a full custom bike (Rodriguez) and spent alot of time looking at options to better educate myself for the second largest purchase I was about to make. Though I love the look of a lugged frame, I chose tig for the reason mentioned by Thylacine .... I wanted the best bike for the money I had to spend.

Obviously, the tig process requires more heat than brazing but that's not necessarily a bad thing if you use 'air-hardened' tubing. The framebuilders here can explain it better, but my understsnding is that the final heat cycle of the hardening process is not performed at the factory, but at build time by the heat of the weld. This steel is stronger at the welds. For what it's worth, I chose Tru-Temper Ox Platinum tube and ....Oh my... really sweet.

Jim

I didn't search the thread for it, but as the last few posts are about putting tubes together... why not consider something fillet brazed?

Fillet brazing is kindof like building the lugs in place. A small piece of metal is heated and used to join the tubes. Many fillet brazes are filed before painting. It makes for a sexy, durable finish.

I just got my gf a half lugged (bb, stays), half fillet brazed Jeff Lyon frame. It should make for a very nice, long lived ride.

Here's an interesting article on fillet brazed, lugged and tig manufacture: http://www.anvilbikes.com/story.php?news_ID=19&catID=3

If a TIG'ed frame becomes an option for you, I would check out a steel Marinoni Pista. Marinonis are beautiful bikes and the newer TIG welded ones I've seen are no exception. Columbus Zona tubing, lots of paint/chrome options. A frame+fork goes for about $675CDN. They can do full custom geometry, but I'm not sure how much (if anything) that adds to the cost.

m.

full custom adds nothing to the cost, as they only build their pista frames with custom geometry.

But I guess you'll have to pay for a fitting somewhere.