Singlespeed & Fixed Gear - Coaster Brake (jimv!!)

so my gf has an old coaster setup 700c rear, and i've been thinking about slapping it on my old frame.
the problem is, i don't know jacksh!t about coaster brakes. what are the quality vintage ones? what are the quality newer ones? how do they work? anything you've got will be helpful.

specifically, what is this?
http://www.bikeforums.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=30785

i think i understand the basic logic in the brake, but probably not. i've never been too mechanically inclined. what does the part that attaches to the frame itself do? what's that called?

thanks in advance

so my gf has an old coaster setup 700c rear, and i've been thinking about slapping it on my old frame.
the problem is, i don't know jacksh!t about coaster brakes. what are the quality vintage ones? what are the quality newer ones? how do they work? anything you've got will be helpful.

specifically, what is this?
http://www.bikeforums.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=30785

i think i understand the basic logic in the brake, but probably not. i've never been too mechanically inclined. what does the part that attaches to the frame itself do? what's that called?

thanks in advance

Well (rolls up his sleeves and grins) First off, for normal riding, almost any reasonable coaster brake can be made to work fine. If the brake is less than 20 years old, it's most likely a KT (Kun Teng) these are/were sold under the Hi-Stop, Shimano, KT, Suntour, and other names. They are cone-clutched brakes as were most of the coaster brakes made since the late 1800's. I don't know if you saw these drawings (http://www.bikeforums.net/showpost.php?p=1050523&postcount=7) I made a while ago but they give an idea of how this type of brake works. If you want more of an explanation I'd be happy to give it. There's also this 'how-to' (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=57248&highlight=coaster) using a middle of the road Bendix brake. It might help to look at this and the drawings together to see 2D and 3D (sorta') representations of the parts and how they fit together.

The lever that attaches to the chainstay is the brake arm and is used to prevent the non-drive end of the hub from rotating. Basically, what your're doing is creating a friction connection between the hub and the drive-side cog while pedaling and a friction connection between the hub and the bicycle frame (via the brake arm) while braking. It naturally follows that there is no friction connection to either frame or cog while coasting. Look at the drawings and the position of the cone-clutch in those three modes.

The brake on my Rodriquez and my steamroller are Velosteels made in the Czech Republic. I have a nifty slotted, stainless tab welded to the chainstay of the Rodriguez to secure the brake arm. The Velosteels are a really nice hub when properly greased and bearings (cones) adjusted. Sadly, they come from the factory virtually dry of grease so they need work before they are ready for use. The Velosteels are pretty much impossible to get in the US right now which is sad. It's based on a 1904 Sachs design and is not a cone-clutch design but uses a roller-clutch (see my avatar to get a rough idea of this mechanism).

Regarding the best hubs to buy. I'm partial to older German (Sachs, Fichtel & Sachs) hubs. Sachs designs/patents were also licensed to companies like Renak, Perry and Excel so those are nice too. Another slight variation is the Musselman hubs (sometimes branded as Higgins and Elgin). Of course we can't forget the Bendix which range from really nice to reeeealllly crappy. The older units had hub bodies fashioned as a single piece (no pressed-on flanges) but a properly maintained Redline (redband) is a good useable hub. The last hubs bearing the Bendix name were made in Mexico and these are very low quality .... not worth using in my opinion. They're clearly marked Made in Mexico on the brake arm. I would avoid the Blueline (blueband) hubs as well. These are all cone-clutch except (as mentioned) certain models Sachs hubs that were roller-clutched.

Another sweet hub is the Sturmey-Archer SC-1 but they are very hard to find. Penultimately, the Cadillac/Rolls-Royce of hubs is the Morrow. These are really sweet but are quite complicated and require a tricky adjustment, during assembly, to work properly. It's not likely you'll find one lying around anyway. In fact, the reason the slot is so long on my Rodriquez is to accomodate the longer arm of the Morrow that I am slowly rebuilding.

Finally, the New Departure brake, like the Bendix redline, are the easiest hubs to find. New Departures were the first real coaster brake made (1896) and are cone-clutched but they do not use brake shoes like all other coaster brakes. Instead, they used a stack of disks like a motorcycle clutch to provide the braking action. From a design point of view, they're really nice but for braking action, many feel the leave alot to be desired. I have a few of them but have yet to lace one into a wheel to try it. After reading old articles about the early Repack race, the general concensus seemed to be that ND's always burnt up half way down the mountain and that Morrow and Musselman brakes were preferred. But for normal riding they may suffice.

Remember, coaster brakes (like all friction brakes) stop by converting forward motion into heat. Because the braking is done in a small area (inside the hub as opposed to the circumference of a rim), heat build-up can be extreme especially if the brake is used alone during a long decent. For this reason I would suggest adding a front brake to any coaster braked bike unless you live and ride in the flatlands.

So what's the practical differences in all of those brakes I've listed? Mostly in the amount of drag the hub exhibits during coasting and pedaling. Some hubs like the Sachs use a spring clip to actively retract the shoes while others simply allow the shoes to rest on the inside of the hub. Morrows actually 'disengage' the braking mechanism at both ends to reduce drag and the Musselman hubs use a split cycinder shoe to achieve the same type of shoe retraction as the Sachs and Morrow. The roller-clutched hubs have less drag as well. But for all practical purposes, the drag in any hub is acceptable if it is well-lubricated and adjusted. The only hubs that I feel are rediculously draggy are cheap Joytechs and Mexican Bendix hubs.

There's also the 'smoothness of braking' properties too. That is, how 'linear' the braking action is between slight braking all the way to lock up. Brakes that lock up with too little back-pedal force are undesireable. Most of the brakes I've listed do well enough in this area.

Caveats Marketing departments being what they are, some hubs aren't necessarily what they appear to be. For example, Morrows were made by Eclipse Machine Company which was purchased by Bendix in the mid 1920's. Many years later when Schwinn decided to release a classic fat tire cruiser to commemorate some anniversary, they purchased the coaster brake from Bendix. Bendix, whose entire brake production had, by then, moved to Mexico, thought that it would be a great idea to give the brake a classic feel by stamping Morrow (in it's classy script font) on the brake arm (they did own the trademark).....travesty! I have seen these lowest-of-quality brakes for sale as Morrows. Beware. Back to Schwinn for a moment, Schwinn used coasterbrakes from just about every manufacturer out there. Most of the time, the brake arm is stamped with the words 'Schwinn Approved'. Some of these brakes are superb (like Sachs) and some are not (like the fake Morrow and Mexican Bendix) so you can find gems here but be careful. A German hub should have 'Germany' stamped on the body and would likely have an oil port on the side of the hub too.

What hub is on your girlfirends wheel?

I hope this isn't too long-winded for you ..... I'm just getting warmed-up 8-)

Take care

Jim

no, you're a great resource.

i'll check out the gf's wheel when i get home, now that i know what i'm looking at.

thanks a lot.

jimv - you should head up a coaster hub subforum. You truly are the king! The coaster stuff floating around these days is pretty darn interesting. I'm now considering maing the English style randonneur bike I'm planning on building have a coaster hub. We shall see.

I now know more about coaster brakes than roughly 100% of the world's population

was thinking about putting a coaster brake wheel on my gf's bike. only problem is that she wants to start riding clipless pedals. it seems to me that riding a coaster brake bike with clipless pedals could be a bit awkward on quick stops/dismounts. never have ridden one with that setup so im not certain. im sure things might be a bit easier with a front brake.

better off going with a freewheel?

Hi all...

Thanks for the nice comments. I'm not sure why I'm so 'into' coaster brakes but I do find them fascinating and elegent in their design. Like the bicycle they're attached to, the coaster brake was largely set in stone early in the last century. It's really interesting to me that every now and again people can come up with an idea and get it right almost from the start.


i'll check out the gf's wheel when i get home, now that i know what i'm looking at.

Excellent. I'm curious which brake it is.


I'm now considering maing the English style randonneur bike I'm planning on building have a coaster hub. We shall see.

Very cool. My girlfriend and I have been talking about this too. We want to do some multi-day bike tours ... not crazy over the rocky mountain stuff but reasonable get-aways. She also rides singlespeed and we've decide to build a set of 3 or 5 speed internal-geared coaster brake hubs that we can slap onto our bikes along with some racks. Around town we still prefer 1 speed. I've taken apart Sturmey-Archer 5 & 7 speed hubs and Sram 3 & 5 speed hubs to see how they work and must say that the Srams are very well nice. The technology is the same but the finish work in the Srams convinced me it's the way to go. Have you decided on a hub? Tell me more about the bike you're designing (I might steal an idea or two ;-)


I now know more about coaster brakes than roughly 100% of the world's population

Well then I guess that makes you the NEW king 8-) So, do you think you might build a coaster brake bike?


only problem is that she wants to start riding clipless pedals. it seems to me that riding a coaster brake bike with clipless pedals could be a bit awkward on quick stops/dismounts. never have ridden one with that setup so im not certain. im sure things might be a bit easier with a front brake.

Hmm... I think clipless and coaster brake could be happy together though I've never tried it. I like clips and straps. Certainly with a front brake she could unclip before she reaches a dead stop so that would definitely work.

BTW if anyone out there knows of an old geezer or someone knowledgeable in the ways of coaster brakes mainly in the area of coaster brake company histories I'd like to chat with them. I'm always looking for more info on the companies themselves.

Jim

JimV- Any opinion on the Sachs Torpedo three-speed? They seem to be reasonably available... I'm thinking of using one on my new commuter.

Thanks!

-chris

Darn, Now ya got me thinkin about another bike. Hmm I have a slew of coaster brake hubs. Don't most CB's run in the 118 to 125mm or so. I guess I could retrofit longer axles and spacers if I wanted to use a MTB frame. I have a Shimano 3C somewhere also. Darn now I got to start collecting parts and lookin' thru my 30 year collection of parts and I just finished my SS/MTB project.

I have to say, I've become really inclined to buy/build a coaster brake bike after I saw one of jimv's pics with a coaster brake on a nice track frame and stuff. I had always associated coaster brakes with clunky leisure bikes, something I didn't particularly want, and to see the great coaster brake put to work on a frame I would really ride was enlightening.

JimV- Any opinion on the Sachs Torpedo three-speed? They seem to be reasonably available... I'm thinking of using one on my new commuter.

Thanks!

-chris

I have no direct experience with 3-speed Torpedos but hope to find one to play with. Their quality varied depending when they were made. Pre WWII they were roller-clutched but after the war they were built more like the S-As. From what I've read, and the modern Sram is a direct decendent of the Torpedo. They were all very nice except for the last few years of production which I think was the late 80's (don't quote me on that though). As a commuter hub I think it would be fine (atually, if it's from the 60's-70's I suspect it would be fine for any purpose.

Jim

Darn, Now ya got me thinkin about another bike. Hmm I have a slew of coaster brake hubs. Don't most CB's run in the 118 to 125mm or so. I guess I could retrofit longer axles and spacers if I wanted to use a MTB frame. I have a Shimano 3C somewhere also. Darn now I got to start collecting parts and lookin' thru my 30 year collection of parts and I just finished my SS/MTB project.

A slew you say??? 8-) Anything interesting? Or should I ask anything interesting for sale?? I have quite a large collection now but am always looking for hub models I don't currently own. Hub spacing is the #1 gotcha. Most that I've measured are 110mm and when you find one that is marked as 120mm it usually just has a longer drive-side cone so the chainline is almost always the same (as if it were 110mm) which is around 39-40mm. Playing with some spacers and maybe a slight redish, it's quite easy to make most hubs work with a 120mm spaced frame. For wider frame spacing, I would look at cold-setting it, but there are other ways to get it to work. schwinnbikelove has a coaster brake bike and her LBS had to reverse dish the rear wheel to get work and that's cool too.

Another useful aid is offset or dished cogs. They can help with chainline issues alot. One thing to remember about coaster brake axles (on the older units) is that they were pretty soft. It's a good idea to use tugnuts so the axle nuts don't strip trying to prevent axle slip.

I'm not familiar with coaster brakes designed for use with mountain bikes so everything I said above may not apply to that application.

Jim

I have to say, I've become really inclined to buy/build a coaster brake bike after I saw one of jimv's pics with a coaster brake on a nice track frame and stuff. I had always associated coaster brakes with clunky leisure bikes, something I didn't particularly want, and to see the great coaster brake put to work on a frame I would really ride was enlightening.

Thanks for the compliment. You know, there was a time when people would get together and brag about the coaster brakes on their bikes. It was the crowning jewel of components. I don't know if those days will ever return but I think they're wonderful devices. I like my bikes clean and pretty and coaster braked ;-)

Jim

Yes, this is a bump. This discussion just died!! Did I say something to turn ya'll off to coaster brakes???? I wanted to hear about the good Wheel Doctor's 'slew of coaster hubs' and absntr's touring bike.

Jim

Dude, I think you just started the bike trend to replace fixies. Genius

I've thought about putting a coaster brake on an MTB. It's so crazy it just might work.

Besides, everyone loves a bike with no brake levers.

I've thought about putting a coaster brake on an MTB. It's so crazy it just might work.

That was what the OGs did racing the Repack. (thus the name, even)

Since this is turning into a general coaster thread, I have to say I'm chomping at the bit to get my new bike finished. The parts are in and all it lacks is getting the rear wheel built after the holiday weekend. Surly Steamroller with mustache bars and coaster rear.

Want it now, dammit!

I'm still looking for a good coaster hub here in Colorado to put on my commuter... hoping to catch a steal on something at Monday's memorial day half-price sale at the thrift! I *almost* bought a Bendix last week, but then remembered JimV's comments on the Mexico Bendix and thought better of it...

my next bike is going to be a nice fold up with a coaster brake..i get excited just thinking about how much fun i'm going to have with that guy!

the bike trend to replace fixies

I'm so old school.

I'm so old school.

My only hope is that this trend picks up before summer officially gets here, so we can see cute girls on nice coasters classics around town. Something about wicker baskets just gets me going.

The bike I rode for about 5 or 6 years until I built up my first fixed last year was (is!) a coaster brake equipped cruiser. It's been sitting idle for a while, but this thread has definitely inspired me to go clean it up and take it out for a spin.

It even has a golf ball kick stand... how cool is that?

m.

Here in sunny Santa Barbara, California, 90% of all the bikes you see are coaster brake beach cruisers. Those things are everywhere...

I've thought about putting a coaster brake on an MTB. It's so crazy it just might work.

just don't go skiddin down the trails!!! seriously, why not just two v-brakes on an mtb??? not that i am anti-coaster brake; but i might be anti-off-road coaster brake(too easy to lock it up and skid on trails). :p

jimv - your a freakin awesome resource! keep it up! let me ask you this: you think a modern shimano coaster hub can be built into a good reliable commuter wheel? how would you say they stack up vs. the older stuff?

just don't go skiddin down the trails!!! seriously, why not just two v-brakes on an mtb???

Isn't that sort of an odd question in a forum where people are all gung-ho about making sure their twitchy track bikes don't have hand brakes?

you think a modern shimano coaster hub can be built into a good reliable commuter wheel? how would you say they stack up vs. the older stuff?

I'm not jimv, but I am having a wheel like that built this week. Shimano E-type hub lacing to a 700c rim.

Having to use 12ga tandem spokes because the holes in the hub are a bit on the big side. So much for my idea of "use new parts, it'll be easier".

I've thought about putting a coaster brake on an MTB. It's so crazy it just might work.


just don't go skiddin down the trails!!! seriously, why not just two v-brakes on an mtb??? not that i am anti-coaster brake; but i might be anti-off-road coaster brake(too easy to lock it up and skid on trails).


Isn't that sort of an odd question in a forum where people are all gung-ho about making sure their twitchy track bikes don't have hand brakes?

skidding on the roads is cool if you want to wear out YOUR tires. skidding on the trails is not cool because you ruin EVERYONE'S trails not just your tires.

Dude, I think you just started the bike trend to replace fixies. Genius


i was thinking about this when i first saw the ss coaster on nycbikes.com. more practical but also easier to potentially pose. it lets you have the fixed gear look, but you can still stop w/o hand breaks and dont have to relearn how to ride your bike. now that i think about it you could even do track stands and skid maybe.

i like my fixed, but for most ppl i think free wheel ss is probably more practical/realistic. it also seems to require less maintenance. i rode a ss freewheel for about 6 or 7 years with neglecting even basic maintenance other than maybe a tune up/lube a couple of times.

i was thinking about this when i first saw the ss coaster on nycbikes.com. more practical but also easier to potentially pose. it lets you have the fixed gear look, but you can still stop w/o hand breaks and dont have to relearn how to ride your bike. now that i think about it you could even do track stands and skid maybe.

To avoid unintended posing, a coastie rider should yell "coaster brake, beyooches!" at random times while riding. Like every 2.7 blocks.

Skidability is a mos def. Track stands on the other hand are just as hard as on any non-fix, imho.

When all the people who currently have fixies because they are trendy have given up and converted to SS, coasties will rule. Mark my words.

To avoid unintended posing, a coastie rider should yell "coaster brake, beyooches!" at random times while riding. Like every 2.7 blocks.

Skidability is a mos def. Track stands on the other hand are just as hard as on any non-fix, imho.

When all the people who currently have fixies because they are trendy have given up and converted to SS, coasties will rule. Mark my words.

Agreed 100%. I hope some of you will show up for our annual coastie race next year and help show the fixies how its really done.

Best wishes,
Dr. Hans
www.primitivecycling.org

j.....jimv - your a freakin awesome resource! keep it up! let me ask you this: you think a modern shimano coaster hub can be built into a good reliable commuter wheel? how would you say they stack up vs. the older stuff?

Sorry to take so long to reply.....I've just returned from a month in the So. Pacific 'buttering my bread' so to speak. Worked with Scott H. of Level fame and must say, he's one nice guy. I'm buying a few front hubs from him because good people with good products are worth supporting.....Believe me, I tried to convince him that Level really needed to introduce a new coasterbrake hub 8-)

As for the Shimano? Yeah, it'll work for you....Unless you live in flatland, I'd add a front brake too. One of my next projects is to do a comparison of a wide variety of coasterbrake hubs with lot's of photos. I'm not impressed by the current crop of CB's (KT/Shimano, Joytech) but with sensible maintenance, they'll work.

BTW, didn't you folks get my memo about not discussing my favorite subject while I'm away???? 8-)

Jim

Agreed 100%. I hope some of you will show up for our annual coastie race next year and help show the fixies how its really done.

Very cool. Where is this race held? Not that I'm in a position to show anyone how racing is really done.

Jim

When all the people who currently have fixies because they are trendy have given up and converted to SS, coasties will rule. Mark my words.

i will bet that there will be someone selling a new coaster hub just in time for this to happen. How long can bianchi sell chrome pista's?

edit: does some one make a new coaster hub, i guess they must, but i don't really know
also sorry to bring up the pista again, i guess bianchi did something right since its always seems to be a topic of conversation.

edit: does some one make a new coaster hub, i guess they must, but i don't really know


There are coaster hubs being made. Not really good ones. And I haven't heard of anyone putting R&D $$ into them either. Dammit.

Jimv: I think he is talking about the coaster race during bicycle week in New York.

Very cool. Where is this race held? Not that I'm in a position to show anyone how racing is really done.

Jim

We hold the race in Central Park in Manhattan, every year on "Bike to Work Day".
Send me an email at DrHansNoodleman at primitivecycling.org, or visit our website to get on the mailing list if you like.

Best wishes,
Dr. Hans

The Velosteels are a really nice hub when properly greased and bearings (cones) adjusted.

Peripherally relevant anecdote:

I was in Amsterdam for a couple of days this summer. Trying to think of what bikie goodness I could acquire there, that I couldn't get in the U.S., I remembered the words of Jim V. and thought "Velosteel"!

I wasn't sure if Velosteels were even available there, so I knelt down at the first bike I saw and sure enough, "Velosteel" was stamped on the brake arm.

I hit several shops, none had bare hubs for sale. Clearly the bike shop folk I encountered thought the idea of buying a hub was very strange. One guy was very helpful - he had a drawer full of Velosteel guts, but no hubs. He told me he could order one and have it in a couple of days, but I wasn't going to b around long enough. Apparently the hubs are never replaced - they just pop out the guts, leaving only the shell laced to the wheel, and pop in a new set.

The same guy told me that most new bikes were coming through with Shimanos these days, because they were "more durable". I told him I was skeptical about that.

I did end up buying a nice used front rack from the guy.

Side note: Some of the Kronans sold in the U.S. come with Velosteel hubs, I understand.

Best wishes,
Dr. Hans

I am so happy to see some coaster brake love. :)

http://www.crywolf.ca/images/miscellaneous/white_sputter.jpg

- eyefloater

I'm feeling the coaster brake love man. Although, when all is said and done for me (I have another thread going with lots of good ideas) I'm going to end up with a coaster brake chrome Pista= the trend of the trend.

Here is a link to an online retailer in Holland who sells Velosteel hub parts as well as complete hubs.

http://www.fietspunt.nl/shop/search.php/key//andor/1/stock/0/color/-1/brand/-1/mat/-1/prcmin/0/prcmax/0/hub/118/supercat/-1/adv/true

The parts shown are identical to those I pulled out of a recently purchased hub ($10 at Dave's Bike Dump, Ottawa). The only difference is that my brake drum is brass instead of steel. I am wondering if I should replace it for the steel one. For 4.50 Euro I probably can't go wrong. I know nothing about coaster hubs. This is the first one I have ever bought, let alone disassembled. The hub has no markings whatsoever, not even on the arm that attaches to the chain stay. It has a grease nipple, and a fairly decent chrome finish. It came attached to an old steel rim that was made in Canada. Does anybody have any idea what its origin might be?

^how do you order from that site?

yeah I'm building a coasster roady for my girl too she hates hand bakes and multispeeds but she can't hack a fix

Is it possible to give a coaster brake a QR axle? Is that a bad idea?

The purpose wouldn't be to actually quick release but to allow use with vertical dropouts.

qr axles can't handle the stresses of the braking mechanism

forget shimano you can get a strumy archer single speed coater from bikeman for like 12 bucks

a standard 9mm or 10mm axel will fit us a singulator or the type for chain tension

Won't a tensioner die from the backpedaling?

na the singulator is a roller that bolt on where the derailer usually does and takes up the slack in the chain and no it wont bother it

You cannot use a tensioner on a coaster brake. When you back pedal it will pull the spring out all the way. Even if that doesn't rip it off, it will increase the amount you have to back pedal to get the brake to engage. You don't want that kind of play in the chain.

Also, strength doesn't have anything to do with why you can't use a quick release on a coaster hub. The axle is integral to the hub innards and can't be taken in and out like on a geared bike.

How would a quick release make a coaster work with vertical drops?

Check the Sheldon Brown page on using vertical dropouts for fixed gear to see what the plan would be.

I had a super low quality Chinese coaster brake hub that I took apart, and it seemed to have a standard axle that could be swapped out if desired. Today I got an old Sachs hub that I want to use but I'm afraid to take it apart without a diagram.

Anyone have links to info on the inside of Sachs hubs?

You cannot use a tensioner on a coaster brake. When you back pedal it will pull the spring out all the way. Even if that doesn't rip it off, it will increase the amount you have to back pedal to get the brake to engage. You don't want that kind of play in the chain.


Birdy have been doing exactly that for many years on their bikes with no problems that I've heard about. It does require a chain length that is fairly close without the tensioner though. ;)

or you could get a bunch of half klinks and make the chain exactly the right length you hope

http://www.bikemannetwork.com/biking/p/HU2211

12bucks for a realy coaster hub

there was a company out of nyc that was builing up 700cc wheels with coaster brakes and selling them on ebay. I picked up a set a year ago but there arent with me any more and I forget their address.