Recumbent - Market research, responses needed please!!

My friend and I are looking into starting a company producing our innovative new design for a collapsible recumbent trike (tadpole layout – two wheels at the front, one at the back), and are trying to get an idea of the market.

We are in the process of filing the patent for the design, so can’t reveal details, but it essentially allows the trike to be folded up in under a minute. When I say folded up, I don’t mean like the ones already on the market that just have hinges along the central section – our design also allows the two wheels to be brought together with the movement of a single component, reducing the track width of the trike from about 1200mm to 250mm. The whole vehicle when folded can fit in the boot of a small hatchback car, without even removing the parcel shelf. In both the unfolded and folded positions all the parts lock in place, and the chain remains taught at all times. The trike can also be unfolded in under a minute. It is important to note that the usual mechanical/geometrical features of a recumbent trike (such as ackerman compensation angle, centrepoint steering etc) are not compromised to achieve this folding – the folding is purely an additional feature.

We are trying to get an idea of whether or not people think that this folding ability would be desirable to current or prospective recumbent owners.

We also want to get an idea of what people might be prepared to pay for such a trike. Assume that the standard of manufacture is high, with quality bought-in parts used (such as gears, bearings, wheels etc). We will also fit hydraulic disc brakes to the trikes. We plan to use lightweight materials such as aluminium and carbon fibre.

If you reply that you might be interested in a trike like this, please let us know where in the world you live.

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated - it is very important to us to understand whether or not to pursue this project, and if so to help us to develop our strategy.

If you don’t want to reply on this forum, please email trike2005@hotmail.com.

Thanks in advance!

I'd buy it, but it has to be fast. Where are you based? Have you built a prototype yet? How heavy is it? Do you need someone to test it? ;)

While I'm still looking for a decent trike between the $1000 and $1500 mark (yes, I know there are a few...), I imagine a trike with features like this would be priced at well over twice that, given the obscenely high prices that Greenspeed and others charge.

Have you also considered building a non-folding model for a lower price? Customers usually like a bit of variety, and some people don't really need the trike to fold.

I would think that "folding" for somebody that wanted a trike, but had to transport to ride, would be good.

As far as price ... ???

I'm currently working on a LWB, with a bit of a twist, as far as propulsion. I would appreciate it, if you'd write to me off forum to tell me what you know about the patent process.

tmajor@epix.net

... our design also allows the two wheels to be brought together with the movement of a single component, reducing the track width of the trike from about 1200mm to 250mm.
I'm envisioning your trike collapsing like an umbrella or something...

But because there is nothing to go on except our own imaginations, here are some thoughts (take them with a grain of salt, or not):

* If you have a hinge anywhere, I personally would not want it made out of aluminum because of fatigue life. Then again, I don't know how your mechanism "folds" either.

* As a prospective trike owner, ease of transport through folding is a good selling point, but, for me, the price should not exceed $2500-2600 (the current price of the GT3). It does sound like your trike will easily exceed this price, at which point I would not be interested. In addition, isn't the worldwide price of aluminum increasing at an alarming rate? How about using cromoly, etc.?

* If your trike has too many customized parts - i.e. unique chain tensioners, etc. - or unconventional sizing - i.e. 24" tires - that either are not easily obtainable in the U.S. or are rather expensive to buy, then I would be further disinterested; I'm a Brompton owner and know the pain of buying spare and unique parts.

* Is there a way for a rider to accidentally or inadvertently trigger the folding mechanism? How durable is your mechanism? If the mechanism gets jammed, is it user fixable? Do you need any special tools? For me, I'm getting to the point where the more complex the machine, the more disinterested I become - case in point is the Stites Chameleon: that thing belongs in a museum, not on the road.

* Lastly, the ride quality must be superb since that is the point of any bike. My guess is that you're not from the U.S., so I am wary of the price and quality in general if I can't readily test it. You might already be doing this (or in the process once you receive your patent), but you need to get your machine widely shown and test-ridden similar to what Greenspeed did for the GT3, and I completely respect them for that. If you're marketing your trike solely on the fact that it folds quickly, I think it mainly would appeal to travel lovers with disposable income, another niche market trike.

about that patent can you afford it? it is pretty expensive to file one. but thats the cheap part then if someone infringes on it it only gives you the right to fight it. can you afford the legal costs? anymore unless you going to make a lot of money on something patents are only for companies that can afford the legal costs to defend them
just something to think about I thought of going that route myself. if someone wants to steal your idea it is easy to change it enough to get away with it and easy enough for you not to be able to afford to deal with it.

about that patent can you afford it? it is pretty expensive to file one. but thats the cheap part then if someone infringes on it it only gives you the right to fight it. can you afford the legal costs?

Hi Steve,

That's kinda what I figured. Is there a way to present the idea to a potential maunufacturer, without losing your idea to them? Some have mentioned the "Poor Man's Patent", which is to do the drawings, etc. and mail them to yourself, for "record". ?? Does this carry any weight at all?

.... interesting home page, but that's a different story.

Hi Steve,

That's kinda what I figured. Is there a way to present the idea to a potential maunufacturer, without losing your idea to them? Some have mentioned the "Poor Man's Patent", which is to do the drawings, etc. and mail them to yourself, for "record". ?? Does this carry any weight at all?

.... interesting home page, but that's a different story.

I read somewhere that the "poor man's patent" doesn't have a leg to stand on in court. Do not rely on this as your only means of intellectual property protection.

Thanks to all of you who have replied, the comments are very useful.

As for the cost of the patent, there is quite a bit of free help and advice available in the UK as the government is trying to help small businesses and inventors get started. We are actually meeting with a government funded patent advisor tomorrow, and one of the things we will be asking him is the issue of whether it is worth bothering with the patent, in terms of being able to defend it if challenged, as mentioned by a couple of you. This is certainly a very relevant issue. CATZ, you asked me to let you know what we know about the patent process, I will update you tomorrow after our meeting.

Spambait11 - you have raised many very valid points which i can't respond to immediately, but they will all be considered when we're refining our design.

Jeff-O - we have built a prototype and it was too heavy, but we knew it would be before we made it, as it used too much steel box section. We will not be using the same materials in the finished version. We have not considered a non-folding design as the market seems to be full of them anyway, the strength of our design lies in the innovative folding mechanism, which we think allows us to fill a gap in the market.

All these replies have been very helpful, please keep them coming! We have a lot of work to do to get this project going, and all your advice greatly helps us along the way.

Ah, but the world needs more INEXPENSIVE trikes. The folding trike sounds like a super idea, especially if it's as innovative as you claim. However I'd still like to see the market flooded with trikes as cheap as their DF counterparts. How hard can be? Surely there isn't much more metal used. There's an extra tire, but the seat is just made of mesh, and that can't be very expensive either. I guess the big hurdle is mass production, which is something none of the current trike manufacturers seem to be attempting. I think Catrike is trying, but they're not there yet.

Bottom line, there is absolutely no reason why a trike must cost $4000. Or $3000. Or even $2000, unless perhaps 30% of it is made of carbon fiber.

Build trikes for less than $1000 each, less than $750 even, and you and your friend will be rich. Become the Trek of the recumbent trike world.

Fair point Jeff-O. We have wondered the same thing ourselves - why a $1000 mountain bike is a relatively high spec one, but a $1000 trike is bottom of the range. We assume it has a lot to do with production volumes, both in terms of getting bespoke parts fabricated and bulk buying of bought-in parts such as brakes and gears. We are going to look at a) getting parts made and assembling the trikes ourselves, and b) selling the design to a larger-volume manufacturer. Which route we go down depends on many questions which we don't yet know the answers to.

But do you think that there is enough demand to justify large volume production, i.e. do you not think that large volume manufacturers have looked into trikes and decided that there was not the market for large numbers of them (compared to conventional bikes)? Or maybe if they were cheaper that would create a market?

Your opinions are appreciated!

Cheers

Well, I'll say this. In the 4 days I've had my catrike (a rental), I have seen the whole spectrum of reactions. From looks of pure envy to honking from cranky motorists. Oddly enough, the reactions got better as the people got older (as in, seniors), which I suppose is not so good for your target market. ;)

My mom thought it was the silliest thing she'd ever seen, my dad was just worried that I'd get run over. You could tell he wanted to ride it, though it was sized too large for him. My sister thinks it's a waste of money, she is 19. My wife also thinks it's silly looking, but acknowledges its benefits as well. She hates the price though.

So determining market acceptance is a tricky thing. I'd say that over 90% of the people who see the catrike have never seen anything like it before. That's a lot of stigma to overcome, but with the number of people who'd like to get in shape, but also desire comfort, there is definite room for trikes in the market (IMO).

There is a definite push towards healthy living. There is a trend for transportation alternatives. Rising oil prices. Environmental impact. All these factors work in favour of all human-powered vehicle. The trick now is to convince people not only to give up their cars, but to consider something other than a three-wheeler. To be different.

Trikes are many things. They are more comfortable to ride than normal bikes. They are capable of carrying more luggage, if so designed. They are as fast, if not faster than most regular bikes (lightweight road bikes are still the exception). These are all selling points that you must market heavily if you want to sell trikes to the general public. And remember, an extra wheel is not cheating. It's an advantage over 2-wheelers.

You can't stop there, though. Sure, bikes can go relatively fast, if you're in shape. But to the general public, they are a burden. No-one wants to arrive at their work sweaty and tired. That is why you might also consider an electric assist option. I don't know how solid your background in electronics is, but it's something you may want to look into. On a tadpole trike this may be tricky, however.

An electric assist option would be appealing to those who are not yet strong enough to pedal at their desired speed. It would also appeal to those who might be carrying a lot of items (groceries, briefcases).

Heh, perhaps I'm getting a little ahead of myself here. Back to the folding trike!

It seems to me like you're targeting more the leisure rider, right? A product that can be folded into a trunk, driven to a trail or campground, and ridden at a relaxing pace. I don't think this would require carbon fiber. Make it aluminum, give the seatback a 45 degree angle, and market it as a leisure/commuting bike.

Ha, well, it looks like I've written a novel once again. So, I think that's enough for his post!

You need to have the wherewithall to enforce a patent, but they may be of value if you sell the product to a company that does have that.

If you discuss with others prior to patenting use a nondisclosure agreement. At least they'll be put on notice that you value the IP and take it seriously.

Try just to work with people that you already know you can trust.

You may be able to protect your business idea by introducing a unique name for the product that you can trademark, a name that joines the idea of trike with the idea of folded-up. For example, trikagami (trike+origami). Perhaps not a serious suggestion but you get the idea. (if you want to use it, please tell me where to post the invoice ... :) ) Use this catchy name on the web site and use the web site to trigger discussion. Aim to use your ownership of the the web site domain to irreversibly connect the idea, the product and the name back to yourself.

Lodge a provisional patent (or equivalent in your jurisdiction) and keep itupdated. Then when you have completed testing and are very happy that everything is right, finalise that patent and use that via the PCT (patent cooreration treaty) to give yourself six months grace before deciding if lodging a patent in another country is required. Do all the provisional patent stuff yourself and involve a patent lawyer at the final stage to boilerplate it.

Market surveys for products that are actually new are highly unreliable, especially convenience sample ones without a proper statistical methodology ... um, like this one you have initiated. Still, the feedback will be useful to you.

The best protection you can really get is to be the most knowledgable pair of guys in the whole area you have defined. While you are trying to prove your vision, no one will want to steal your idea, but the moment you crack into a market in a significant way, watch out. That's the moment when your IP strategy will be tested. If you have a properly competitive manufacturing and distribution process in place, then you may just prevent others from trying to nudge you out.

Final comment: There are more ex-trike manufacturers than there are current ones but you have a very real point of difference and benefit. Many existing companies would envy your differentiation.

John
Certified Management Consultant

PS I have a concept for a tilting trike that would come in at about USD1400 but have not proceeded to prototype it yet. Hope to do that soon.

Hi Steve,

That's kinda what I figured. Is there a way to present the idea to a potential maunufacturer, without losing your idea to them? Some have mentioned the "Poor Man's Patent", which is to do the drawings, etc. and mail them to yourself, for "record". ?? Does this carry any weight at all?

.... interesting home page, but that's a different story.

I thought you were going to build them yourself. if your selling idea thats different. that I never did befroe (G)

– our design also allows the two wheels to be brought together with the movement of a single component, reducing the track width of the trike from about 1200mm to 250mm.

Isn't 4 feet rather wide for a trike?

Hey, if you want a cheap resource for titanium, go here:

http://www.titaniumjoe.com/

Isn't 4 feet rather wide for a trike?

I wondered that too.

I am just looking into a trike. The price of over $2000 puts me off. I know of few trikes in the $1000 to $1500 range. If I can find something there with a dependablity factor, comfort level, and handling level that are high, then I'll get one.

Until then, I'm still looking.

You might compare your prices to the competition. Greenspeed GT3 goes for $2700 but you can check on the prices in the UK. Aiolos in Germany has a trike (Trilite) that folds similar to what you seem to be describing. Here is the site.

http://www.aiolos.de/home

Look down the page for the Trilite. The price is 3400 Euros. I would wonder if you could make a quality folding trike for less than $2000.

Regards,

Gary

Well, free market research you get on an internet message board is worth about what you pay for it.

Since I'm currently looking to buy a recumbent (not necessarily a trike), I throw in my two cents.

If you ask me, what the market doesn't need is another expensive recumbent. Whether a trike folds or not, or can cook you breakfast and tie your shoelaces, is not the issue. The price difference between recumbents and uprights is absurd. I say that as someone who wants to buy a recumbent. I've been cycling 40 years, always on uprights, and I'm 99% sure the next bicycle I buy will be a recumbent.

I'm looking right now but, good googily moogily, recumbents cost several times as much as comparable uprights. There has to be a good reason to pay that kind of premium. As far as I'm concerned, the ability to fold is not that good a reason (unless it can fold down to the size of a breadbox).

What I'm looking for is a recumbent that is not too much slower than the bikes I already have and doesn't cost 5 times as much. I may have to settle for a bike that only meets the first requirement.

If I want to buy an expensive trike, there are plenty of those already on the market. The Model T of trikes, a trike the average worker can afford, I might be interested in.

The Model T saved money by being mass produced and mass marketed. They were all black and identical, and had no close competitor. Now if everyone would just agree to buy the trike that I want next to drive down its price, that would be great.

I do not think that is in the cards for trikes or any other recumbents. Any new trike will have to be made and sold in relatively small lots. That is the curse of recumbents. Not everyone wants a black one just like everyone else's.

I suspect most trikes are sold as upgrades or additions to existing recumbent owners. Some folks buy a new Catrike almost every year to get the model changes. (Now, where does that sound familiar from?)

A folding trike will probably have to find a niche market and sell at a high price. I think that the folding trike to one-up in America would be the Greenspeed GT3. You would have to undersell it price wise or offer something more, like a much lighter carrying weight, which is probably what you are proposing.

When Bike Friday releases its new folding recumbent 2-wheeler, I bet that it will go for more than $2500.

I would suggest that the author of this thread post this message on the Bent Rider on Line Trike Message Board. It seems that many trike owners are looking for their next upgrade trike.

http://www.bentrideronline.com/

You might also try the trike list.

http://www.ihpva.org/mailman/listinfo/trikes

Regards,

Gary

What I'm looking for is a recumbent that is not too much slower than the bikes I already have and doesn't cost 5 times as much. I may have to settle for a bike that only meets the first requirement.
Very true for recumbents cost-wise because of small market share. But what bikes do you have? Racers? Utility bikes? Mountain bikes? What do you perceive is "not too much slower"? 15mph? 18mph? 25mph?

To find something light, fast, stylish, and cheap, you'll have to buy used. I don't think any trike makers are in the business of giving trikes away. Just stay on the lookout for good used deals.

In regards to the GT3, it should be made clear that these trikes are "mass produced"* in another country and not made in Australia. That is probably the main reason why Greenspeed is able to price them around $2500. Australian made Greenspeeds cost MUCH more. Thus Bike Friday's new bent might be over $2500, but that is the cost of making them in the U.S.

(*BTW, I have no problem with mass production being done in other countries; as long as the quality is there, I won't complain. But I do detest waste of any kind, and I won't buy an aluminum framed bike: the Birdy was my first and last mistake.)

[QUOTE=jeff-o]
It seems to me like you're targeting more the leisure rider, right? A product that can be folded into a trunk, driven to a trail or campground, and ridden at a relaxing pace.QUOTE]

Yep, thats what we were thinking, more just for fun than transportation. Like you say, something that could be easily transported in a car or a train to be ridden.


Some of you were talking about the patent issue - we have seen a patent advisor, who gave us the impression that as some of you were saying, it is very difficult and expensive to enforce a patent. I think most of you are from the US, I don't know the differences between the UK patent office and the US, but here we have something called a Design Right which it was suggested we look at applying for as an alternative to a patent. I think we may file a patent application initially, which is relatively cheap, then see how things are going after 12 months when we will have to either not continue with the application or spend loads of money on it. In that 12 months I think that if another company applies for the same patent we will have preference over them - i.e. someone could rip us off by using our design, but they couldn't patent it as their own. We'll see what happens.....

There's certainly been some very helpful replies, thanks loads to everyone who's taken the time to give us some feedback and suggestions. We'll have a read through all the replies and have a think about what we need to do, probably be back soon with more questions.