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Called the other LBS today trying to ask about a Canondale tandem. I told him we're taking the Trek T2000 out for a 3-day test spin this weekend. Of course he tried to sell me on a Co-Motion. Problem with Co-Motion...they're way out there on price.
Are Co-Motions that much better than Trek Tandems or was he filling me with more salesman B.S.? Two things he tried to tell me:
A) Co-Motions handle like a single road bike (I had a hard time swallowing this one although I have NO experience)
B) Trek Tandems are very heavy compared to Co-Motion. I can't find a weight on the Trek T2000 anywhere, plus I have no idea what Co-Motion tandem is comparable to compare to. This also may be a moot point especially if it's just a few pounds difference. We're not out to compete.
Thanks for any and all replies. The day draws near when we try out the T2000. I have the feeling we're gonna call the LBS and tell 'em we're not returning it. :D
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I would say that Co-Motion and Santana make the best tandems out there, but you will pay more.
Pick up the Trek and step on your bathroom scale; that will give the approximate weight (subtract your own weight from that number).
Co-Mos weigh in at about 37 lbs, all the way down to 29.4 lbs for the lighter/$$ models.
Prices is higher, but so is the quality.
Have put 58,000+ miles on a custom Co-Motion . . . well worth the $$.
Keep your eyes open for a used one to save some $$.
Yes Co-Mos are better than any Trek. Yes, they handle 'almost' as well as a roadbike.
Have ridden over 30 brands/models (includingTrek) of 2-seaters.
In the end U-2 and your budget will decide; hope this is of some help.
Pedal on TWOgether!
Rudy and Kay/zonatandem
I would say (and I am sure I will take some flak) that the brand does not make that much difference. I have ridden with a bunch of folks who all own different rides. From what I have read and heard, Co-Motion uses front end geometry with more trail than other brands which some riders prefer. This settup is supposed to make the bike more 'race oriented', whatever that means. All the brands that you mentioned are good manufacturers. LBS's are going to try to sell you what they carry.
From what I have heard, the new Trek aluminum tandems are very competitive weight-wise.
You might want to first determine what type of frame material you want - steel or aluminum. Co-Motion makes both. Cannondale and Trek are both aluminum. GENERALY SPEAKING aluminum is stiffer than steel. Not a bad thing on a tandem if you have a large frame and/or are a heavier team.
Try as many bikes as you can and see which one you like best that fits your budget. Lots of times, the differences are subtle. I took 10 mile test rides on 4 different brands and went with the cheapy because I could not justify the price differences by the ride.
Unless you both are very fit and at your fighting weights, a weight difference of 4-5 lbs of tandem will have little or no effect on climbing and no effect on flatland speed. If one or both are out of shape, you could have the lightest tandem in the world and get passed by a fit couple on a beach cruiser.
Unless you both are very fit and at your fighting weights, a weight difference of 4-5 lbs of tandem will have little or no effect on climbing and no effect on flatland speed.
We are at our fighting weights. Every now and then a good one breaks out around here
:D
I didn't realize the CoMos were in the same 'class' as the Santanas. I've pretty much written off the Santanas. They're kind of like Harley motorcycles....good bikes but not worth the hype=$$$ for us.
Finding anything to test ride has been difficult. If I had a shorter wife there were several out there we could have ridden. As it is we were lucky to find the one Trek.
Without having a good tandem shop close, you may have your work cut out for you. Luckily, we have Mt. Airy Bikes about 40 minutes drive from my house. This shop is owned by Larry Black who is a great guy and combination bike historian/pack rat. He carries Cannondale, Trek, Santana, Burley, Co-Motion and KHS tandems. Plus, he has some older trade-ins and other odds and ends hanging from the ceiling, so if you are on a budget, he can get you on something.
I did not try a Co-Motion at Larry's shop. I did try a Trek, a Santana, a Connodale, a Longbikes (no longer made) and a KHS. I was a stone-cold tandem newbie at the time, and my stoker was a stone-cold newbie to cycling of any kind, so if I went back now, I would most likely work the bikes a little harder now and may notice things that I did not notice then.
My favorite out of the bikes I tried was the Longbikes. I think it had the stiffest frame. But, the KHS was 1/3 the cost and weighed about the same. One of these days, I will sell it to some other couple who wants to get their toes wet tandeming and move up. But for now, It gets the job done and we can stick with the B+/A teams as long as there is not a huge amount of climbing.
Our 2005 Trek T-1000 weighed in on a digital scale at the bike shop at just under 37 pounds for a medium frame. The T-2000 would be lighter with the lighter wheels. I agree though that a few pounds isn't going to make a big difference for most people.
Are Co-Motions that much better than Trek Tandems or was he filling me with more salesman B.S.?
Unless he had a Co-Motion sitting in inventory that he’s trying to sell you, I’d say that he’s expressing his opinion which, like all of us, may have some bias attached to it.
I can’t sleep so let me pontificate a bit….
Do you prefer domestic beers, imports, or micro-brews? If you like micro-brews but are perfectly happy with domestics, then domestic beer is “good enough”. If, however, you believe imports or micro-brews are better, then they are.
What does beer (or wine, cigars, single malt scotch, or soft drinks) have to do with tandems? Tandems are no different than their 1/2 bike siblings; components, raw materials, fabrication costs, marketing, and overhead drive the price along with what the market will bear in terms of margins. However, economies of scale also play into the equation and most tandem specialty builders are small businesses who produce a few bikes each day, not hundreds like Trek, Cannondale, and KHS.
So, when comparing brands and models of tandems recognize that the niche builders like Co-Motion, Santana, Bilenky, daVinci, Bushnell, and even Burley need to be looked at in the same way as brands like Ritchey, Serotta, Landshark, Rivendel or other small volume, hand-built producers, i.e., you’re paying a bit more for some exclusivity and the subtle differences that come with semi-custom, domestically produced frames, including what is often times more personalized customer service… assuming you have a need or desire to contact the company.
That said, is a Co-Motion “better” than a Trek? Only if you place a value on the exclusivity, the subtle differences, standard color options, or want to have a personal relationship with your builder. For most first time buyers, none of those things will necessarily be of paramount importance since they’re still trying to figure out if they’ll like tandeming. Now, if your budget put you well within the range of a Co-Motion and you are predisposed to prefer semi-exclusive bikes, or are very sensitive to how different bikes handle and looking for a performance-oriented bike, the Co-Motion could end up being “better for you” than the Trek. If you can appreciate flawless TIG welds and want to be able to choose your paint scheme from a broad palate of colors, the Co-Motion could end up being "better for you". If you like the way air-hardened, custom butted lightweight steel tubing "feels" compared to other materials, the Co-Motion could be "better for you". The key is, what’s best for you?
I think it’s safe to say, even the entry level tandems from all the major and specialty builders that fall within a given budget will be “good enough” so long as the budget is reasonable; you really do get what you pay for. However, we and several friends recently bought a bike as a gift for one of our friend’s son… a $500 Trek 1200 or something like that. As someone who has ended up with some fairly high-end bikes over the years, I was very impressed with that bike and didn’t realize how much bang for the buck you get with trickle-down technology these days. No, the components aren’t as nicely finished and don’t use exotic materials, but they’ll get the job done.
Two things he tried to tell me:
Co-Motions handle like a single road bike (I had a hard time swallowing this one although I have NO experience)
Co-Motions, more so than any other production tandems, do handle more like a personal road racing bike than any other tandem. Put another way, some tandems will always feel like tandems whereas some like the Co-Motions and a few other customs will often times handle corners and other manuevers well enough that you sometimes forget the bike is 8' long with a passenger aboard. The teams you’ll hear this most from are the ones who have previously owned Treks, Santanas, and Burleys (all share the same steering geometry) or other tandems with fairly conservative geometry. Conversely, first time buyers will often find the Co-Motions to be twitchy compared to those same Treks, Santanas, and Burleys. This is why so many of us really stress the importance of back-to-back test rides on different tandems as it’s usually hard to tell which you will prefer until you’ve compared. Of course, I firmly believe that most tandem teams will adapt quite nicely to whatever they buy and won’t become dissatisfied unless they decide – for whatever reason – to change brand/model in the future.
Trek Tandems are very heavy compared to Co-Motion. I can't find a weight on the Trek T2000 anywhere, plus I have no idea what Co-Motion tandem is comparable to compare to. This also may be a moot point especially if it's just a few pounds difference. We're not out to compete.
Aluminum Trek T2000 @ $3,299 with pedals is about 36 lbs. Steel Co-Motion Speedsters @ $3,950 are about 38 lbs in similar trim, and the Aluminum Roadster @ $5,000 is a couple lbs less. The superlight Aluminum Robusta is 29.4 lbs @ $7,200 and uses the same frame as the Robusta; weight savings come from the carbon fork, carbon cranks, carbon seatposts, Rolf Wheelset and other weight saving, bolt-on components not the actual frame.
Note: A full large size water bottle weighs about 1.8lbs
Bottom Line: A Trek T2000 would be a very-nice first tandem and could end up being all the tandem you’ll ever need. Of course, so could a Co-Motion Primera ($2,950), a KHS Milano (~1,000 +/- 15%), or any other “first tandem”. I call these first tandems because, IMHO, if you find that you love tandeming you’ll eventually buy another tandem. If you don’t, it could end up being your only tandem – gathering dust but looking great in the garage for years to come -- or your last if you opt to sell it.
I would say that Co-Motion and Santana make the best tandems out there, but you will pay more.
While I would agree that Co-Motion and Santana both make outstanding products, the folks who sell and or who own many other brands would probably disagree unless you quantified "best"... and even then they might take issue with you.
There are just too many variables to allow any builder or owner to objectively claim one brand is simply "the best" unless they were pegging it to perhaps a market segment, product niche, or some aspect of their reputation. For example, Burley and Cannondale probably offer the "best" value with certain models. Co-Motion offers the "best" precision TIG welds, "best" steering geometry for certain teams, and the "best" warranty coverage for second hand buyers. Santana has the "best" marketing approach, the "best" catalog, and is perhaps the "best" known brand-name.
Just my .02.
P.S. Erickson actually makes the best tandems (See what I mean).
As far as I am concerned, the best tandem for most people is the one they have got. We would all love to aspire to the top of the range model, or the one with the best chain set and ancilliaries or the one with the gold plated price tag. (or in the case of Tandems that should be solid gold as none of them are cheap)
I was lucky in that I bought a Tandem that was suitable for the use that I give it which is aggressive off road use. Over the years it has been upgraded to make it even more suitable for its use, but it is still my original Tandem. I don't think I can afford, or find, a better Tandem for me. I have a friend who has one of the cheap tandems. We Don't ride together as although his is Mountain Bike "Type" It will not do the aggressive riding that we do, and I do not like the gentle Trails that he does. We do occasionally do a road ride together, but neither bike is set for that.
Other than the "Wallmart" bikes (And some people are very happy with these) any tandem is adaptable for the use you give it. These things are expensive to buy, to maintain, and upgrade. Decide on the budget you can afford, and buy the best Tandem for you that the Bank will allow you to get.
Stapfam...you mention, expensive to maintain. Just how expensive? Do these things need to hit the shop real often? I'm very mechanically inclined. As long as there's no complicated electrical components involved, I can fix/maintain just about anything with the right tools.
Do these bikes need more maintenance than a regular road bike?
More things to tune, more things to tweak, more fun. To me, the "work" of maintaining our bikes is almost as much fun as the riding.
Doc
We had the budget and I only wanted to buy one tandem while not be left with desire for a new tandem in a couple years. After reading the forums here and talking to some friends, we ordered a Co-Motion last year.
I can honestly say that I wouldn’t change anything if I bought another tandem. Is it the best? Probably not, but I don’t know what would make it any better.
On handling, I’m more comfortable going down hills on the tandem than I am on my road bike because it feels so smooth and stable at speed. I does corner very well which still scares my wife a bit.
-murray
Do these bikes need more maintenance than a regular road bike?
Road tandems will chew up tires and chains twice as fast as a personal/regular bike which, if you think about it, makes sense. A tandem carries nearly twice as much weight propelled by nearly twice as much power. Therefore, more attention to wear inspections and lubrication is required.
Tandems are also more prone to flat tires, either via pinch flats or punctures that wouldn't have penetrated a personal bikes tire due to the significantly higher passenger load that a tandem carries. You can also create tire failures by riding the brakes on long descents to the point where the rim is heated up enough to cause a tire to "blow off" the rim.
The cross-over crankset, timing chain, and eccentric (that would be the aluminum cylinder that holds the captain's bottom bracket and that facilitates adjusting the slack in the timing chain) are also unique to tandems and introduce an extra element of mechanical complexity, albeit one that's easily mastered as the basic level. You can, if you like, delve into the fine points of timing ring alignment, out-of-round corrections, and ring rotation to extend the life of the chain rings, but it suffices to say it's a relatively simple design and adjusting the eccentric is easily mastered as well.
The drive train itself can be a bit finicky in that you'll find yourself trying to shift under higher chain loads. In these instances, it is your technique that will require attention; easing off on pedal pressure when you shift the front timing rings as well as anticipating and shifting into the small/granny/alpine or taller sprockets as you approach climbs or steepening ascents.
Anyway, you get the point. Tandems are a bit more demanding of your attention given the added complexity of the extra hardware, loads, and power generated by a second rider. If you're a competent bike mechanic, all of the nuances can be mastered. Although, one thing that mechanics who don't work on tandems often times miss the boat on and that home mechanics will be confounded by is the need to have a second rider on the tandem for fine tuning adjustments to the shifting, chasing creaks, squeaks, and the like. For example, older, and even newer but less rigid tandems often times flex enough under very heavy loads to cause rear derailleur shifts -- not all that uncommon even for some regular bikes. But, until you identify that root cause, it can drive you nuts. Test riding alone often times just doesn't stress the tandems enough to recreate those problems, just as having a load on the chain will often times eliminate a noise/interference problem or create one.
FWIW: Our tandems have never seen the inside of a bike shop except to have threads chased on a cross-threaded eccentric and I can't think of any special tools need to do work on a tandem that you wouldn't need to accomplish the same task on a regular bike.
If you can afford a CoMo, go ahead and test ride one. If you can't, beware! When we test rode a CoMo Speedster after riding a Trek T2000, we couldn't believe how much better (from our point of view, of course) the CoMo handled. The difference was HUGE. We resisted the temptation to spend more money than we had (eventually getting a Burley - that we love), but it wasn't easy.
The only 'extra' tool we purchased for one of our tandems was a pin tool (to adjust the eccentric). And for many eccentrics you will not even need a pin tool.
Have set-up a few tandems, and as Mark implies, what works perfect on your workstand will not be as perfect when you get one, and then both riders, on the 2-seater.
But then again, tandems deliver twice the fun!
Pedal on TWOgethger!
Rudy and Kay/zonatandem
K&M, where do you rate the Burley in relation to the CoMo? Which one did you get?
We really wanted to get a Burley (Tosa or a Duet) but we can't find any to test ride and we're real wary about spending that much cash on something we can't test ride first.
Stapfam...you mention, expensive to maintain. Just how expensive? Do these things need to hit the shop real often? I'm very mechanically inclined. As long as there's no complicated electrical components involved, I can fix/maintain just about anything with the right tools.
Do these bikes need more maintenance than a regular road bike?
No more maintenance than a normal bike and no more difficult. The expense side comes in from the fact that you cannot get away with fitting parts from the cheaper end of the price scale. Just as an example-- Headsets. You can fit the run of the mill headset from the bottom end of the market. It will not last very long. On a solo these may last me 6 months. Then at the other end of the scale you can fit a Chris King. You will never have to replace it but it will still need stripping and regreasing and on as frequent a basis as any other head set. In the middle there is a good heavy duty unit that will not break up under the impacts given to it from a tandem. It will last a good few years, but once again will need maintaining.
My Tandem does not get as much milage as my solo, but it is regularly maintained. My big expense is chains, chain rings and cassettes. Crossover chain not changed in 4,000 miles but in that time 6 rear cassettes (Don't buy XT by the way, Use the stronger and cheaper LX) Chains only last 500 miles if I am lucky and the middle ring is the one I wear out, the outer one I keep bending on rocks, and the small front ring I change as a matter of course every time I change the middle ring, but believe me, they do not have much life left in them. (My fault for riding offroad in all weathers.) Actual breakages are Nil. Like any other mechanical biker, things are checked and adjusted, on a frequent basis, with replacement coming before breakage.
The Burley's handling is not as light and crisp as the CoMo's, but (in our opinion) it is better than the Trek. I don't know whether this is due to differences in steering "trail" or not (there are differing claims out there about whether trail is really identical on Treks, Santanas and Burleys). It could be that the carbon fork and a better saddle position is the reason the Burley feels better. The Treks tended to give us kind of a "Queen Mary" feeling from time to time when cornering - like driving a big truck. The Burley does not seem to do this.
The biggest complaint we had with the Treks (and we rode two T2000's well over 1000 miles) was that the brakes were really not adequate for serious descents. We are an under 300 lb. team, but we found the brakes weak, loud (very loud!), hard to modulate and, worst of all, grabby. Check old threads on this forum and you will see that we are not the only ones to have this complaint!
We spent months trying to find a Burley to test ride, but finally gave up and just ordered one sight unseen. We did this because so many people recommended them so highly and because we couldn't believe the kind of components we could get for our money.
We got a Rivazza with the "Race" package (i.e. carbon fork, carbon cranks, Rolf wheels, rear disc brake, etc.). We love it. The disc brake is great and even the Single-Digit Seven on the front is a huge step up from the brakes on the Trek. If you buy the Trek, consider upgrading to SD 7's with Travel Agents.
Since our Burley arrived, back in February, we have been averaging over 100 miles per week on it. In doing two relatively quick (sub-eleven hour) double centuries on it, we have found that it stays comfortable over the long haul, even while we're maintaining a decent pace and not spending a lot of time off the bike. Not all bikes are comfortable enough to keep a double century fun from start to finish! The Burley is, without a doubt, a very high quality bike.
One thing I would note is that disc brakes can be a bit more complicated than other brakes (although, I think, their performance makes it well worth it). I have had to add some extra washers to the brake mounts to get the disc to line up perfectly when the wheel is fully seated in the top of the drop outs and getting sufficient braking power without having the brakes rub can take a lot of adjusting. Floating discs, like they have on motorcycles, would be a big improvement.
I agree with test riding as much as possible.
For a possible helpful resource, contact Mark Johnson at Precisiontandems.com
He sells both Comotion and Burley. He is a nice guy, and I found him a real help.
Doggus,
Well, I don't have much useful information for you. We bought a Cannondale last year and I've only even ridden one other tandem and that was 30 years ago. I don't know what the Cannondale weighs but it is built like a truck compared to my other bikes. The shifting is as good as any bike I have (I've got a very good race type road bike and high end mountain bike). The handling sucks (sloooowwwww) and the frame isn't very stiff, at least compared to my road bike. The ride is very good, especially compared to my road bike. We ride it just about everyday towing about 80 lbs of trailer. Working on it is like working on any other bike, just a little more stuff there with a little more interdependency.
The other tandem is one we got on the farm when I was a teenager about 30 years ago. It was a Schwinn, 5 speed, full fenders, drum brake, big tires. That Schwinn with me and my brother on it never lost a race, it had a screaming top end! I don't remember it weighing much either. We had a-lot of great times with that bike. The slingshot equipped stoker solved many a dog problem too.
Get the bike you can afford. From what I'm seeing here all of these bikes are very good. It's what you do with the bike you get that matters.
I have a Trek T 2000 and I think its a great bike. My wife and I ride it about 1000 miles a year and last year took it fully loaded on a 435 trip on the Natchez Trace. The bike performed flawlessly. I do have to agree about the brake squeal however. It doesn't happen all the time, but just sometimes. I don't think you have to spend over $4,000 to have an excellent tandem.
[QUOTE=Doggus]
I didn't realize the CoMos were in the same 'class' as the Santanas.
They're not but maybe someday Santanas will move up a class or 2.
I always thought my Co-Mo tandem handled better than my single, that is until they built me a single.
Tim
2002 Custom Co-Motion Supremo
2003 Custom Co-MotionSpeedster Co-Pilot
2005 Custom Co-Motion Robusta
and 2 Co-Motion Espressos for good measure
TimP, I get the feeling your biased :p
Another vote here for the Co-Motion. Steel is real and man do they do it right. Pay up for the dual-caliper brakes. V-brakes just dont cut it.
My .02
Pay up for the dual-caliper brakes. V-brakes just dont cut it.
My .02
Can you elaborate? The V-brakes on my speedster seem to work very well.
-murray
Riding a co-motion with dual calipers the bike stops virtually the same as my single bike (just feels like Ive gained 50 or so pounds, but otherwise the characteristics feel the same). I have riden two tandems with v-brakes, one co-motion (My GF's speedster that we are changing over to dual calipers) and an inexpensive Univega. Both of the V-brake bikes seriously lack stopping power compaired to the 2 co-motions I have captained with dual-calipers and the 2 I have stoked on.
And just in case, yes they are adjusted correctly, the pads are new-ish, making good contact ect. As for maintenace, well the dual calipers are rather like your single bike. You put em on, get em adjusted then replace them when they are worn.
I'm not alone around here in thinking this, we all prefer the dual calipers. But, if V-brakes work for you, cool. =)
You all are about to talk me into trying a Co-Motion. I wish I could compare a Co-Motion against a Burley. The Trek is here for us to try. I actually contacted the local tandem club here (Double Dates?!?) and one of the responses was simialar to 'Why do you want to ride a Burley'.
Not sure how to take that response. Can't tell if they thought Burley was scrap or just wondering why I was so deadset on a Burley.
....Both of the V-brake bikes seriously lack stopping power compaired to the 2 co-motions I have captained with dual-calipers and the 2 I have stoked on.
And just in case, yes they are adjusted correctly, the pads are new-ish, making good contact ect. As for maintenace, well the dual calipers are rather like your single bike. You put em on, get em adjusted then replace them when they are worn.
I'm not alone around here in thinking this, we all prefer the dual calipers. But, if V-brakes work for you, cool. =)
The sidepull brakes (a.k.a. calipers) are better for brake modulation, so they are great for peloton riding. However, cantilever brakes and v-brakes are easier to use if you want to brake quickly. If the Co-Motion you tried with v-brakes lacked braking power, I suspect the brake pads were mis-adjusted, or the return springs were too tight, or the cable was squeezed somewhere. Good-quality pads help. Replacing the stock Avid pads with Kool Stop pads gives a whole new meaning to "braking efficiency".
As for "braking power", strictly speaking, it's just a matter of the rubber pads and the rim. Even with 1970 centrepull brakes, you can brake as hard as with modern brakes. You just need to squeeze the levers hard enough, probably to the point the cable might break.
The Burley's handling is not as light and crisp as the CoMo's, but (in our opinion) it is better than the Trek. I don't know whether this is due to differences in steering "trail" or not (there are differing claims out there about whether trail is really identical on Treks, Santanas and Burleys).
In an effort to take any fuzz off the ball on steering geometry on Burley I went to the source... Burley.
According to the nice folks in Oregon who produce the value-packed Burley tandems, their sport package (standard road tandems) use 55.5mm off-set/rake forks with an axle-to-crown height of 403mm yielding a nice and conservative 46.2mm of steering trail. The race package with the new Burley-specific True Temper Alpha Q, canti-compatible carbon forks have 47mm of off-set/rake with an axle-to-crown height of 395mm yielding a more aggressive 54.3mm of steering trail... something Burley's product manager described as being "a bit more nible and quicker at speed" than the standard sport package.
For reference purposes, Santana and Trek share the same head tube angle (73 degrees) and use forks that also have axle-to-crown heights of ~395mm - 400mm with 55mm of rake yielding similar steering trail to the Burley sport (standard) package. Co-Motion's standard geometry is also based on a 73 degree head tube but uses a fork with ~387mm axle-to-crown height and 50mm of fork rake.
The wheels, tires, and frame designs will somewhat alter the individual handling characteristics of these different brand's various tandem offerings but, in general, the Burley "race package" should handle more like Co-Motion's standard tandems and their "sport package" will handle more like Santana's and Trek's standard tandem offerings. Personally, I think Burley has done what Santana and Co-Motion have both needed to do for a long time which is to acknowledge that different teams may find they have a preference for a different handling package and offering products that will meet their individual needs/preferences.
FWIW: We spent the week riding with a BF list member team who just took delivery of their new Burley Rivazza with the "Race Package". They were very pleased with the bike and, to be honest, if I was in the market for a go-fast tandem I'd be hard pressed to pass on the Burley... an incredible value for a really nice package. I'm sure they'll post their own review in time.
Steel is real. Alu is stiff. Ti is neater. Carbon fiber is the future . . . and the future is here, now!
Have ridden and owned all those materials. Our money, and butts, are on a c/f tandem!
Thanks, TandemGeek, for an extremely informative post!
When we were shopping for a tandem, we were informed by a couple of LBS "experts" that since we liked the handling of the CoMo we tried, we should buy a Burley (even though there were no Burleys to test ride). They told us that Burley had more aggressive steering than Trek or Santana because they used "the same steeper head tube angle used by CoMo" (leading to more trail). Yet, when I researched the actual figures, I found that Trek, CoMo and Burley all claimed a 73 degree head tube angle (couldn't find any figures for Santana). I could not find any info from the manufacturers on actual trail (which, of course, is influenced by many factors besides head tube angle) .... and trail, of course, is only one factor in how a bike steers and handles.
Meanwhile, on this forum and in other places I kept reading that the trail on Burleys was the same as on Treks and Santanas (i.e. less than on CoMo). I finally decided that trying to figure out how a bike would handle without riding it was a hopeless task, but ordered a Burley anyway because the price was just too good.
When we finally got to ride our Burley (Rivazza with race package), we found, to our delight, that it was definitely more nimble than the Treks we were used to, although not necessarily as nimble as the CoMo we'd taken a quick test ride on.
So anyway, it is nice to know that we are not entirely crazy and that our Burley's superior handling can, at least partly, be explained by the fact that it DOES have more trail than the Treks we were used to ... even though many other Burleys may not. It also shows that the LBS "experts" may have been correct in their conclusion, even though their explanations were off the mark.
Your research should also be of great interest to those trying to decide whether to go with the carbon fork option when buying a Burley since it appears that, due to the difference in rake, the carbon fork may significantly change the way the bike handles (which may be either good or bad, depending on the buyer's preference for nimbleness vs. stability).
I agree with you that offering this choice is something that manufacturers other than Burley ought to consider, but I also think that Burley might do more to make people aware that using the carbon fork will create somewhat more aggressive (and less stable) steering. The choice isn't very useful if people don't know they're making it and base their fork decisions purely on weight, dampening characteristics, etc., which is what I imagine most Burley customers are doing today.
I have read tru the various posts, they are VERY illustrative, thanks Tandemgeek the Georgian and Stapfam the Brit, for their precious inputs !
Here in Brazil we simply don't get these brands, Santana, CoMo's and others. Expensive and tricky to import. Once imported, I would say that claiming "warranty" in case something goes wrong, would be a pain YKW.
I gather that the only makers that really bring tandems to Brazil are C'dale, KHS (but they are SO unreliable...) and Trek.
This is to say, that some of the things you guys claim to be a decisive factor in choosing a proper tandem bike, are even more sensitive when viewed from my end of the cable.
From the "warranty" standpoint, I would take a Trek, for it is the one with the far best servicing, retailer chain in this country. C'dale comes second but not too far behind.
I was offerred a KHS by the local agent, price was just alright, but they never sent the bike down to the my local store. Funny guys.
But, as already mentioned in this topic, we have to give credit to the bike "we have".
In my case, I found a tradicional manufacturer in Săo Paulo, who delivers a decent "copy" of what seems to be a C'dale geometry, in "real steel" (I would not risk calling it Chrome... lol). The whole thing fits the bill. It takes us from point "A" to "B".
Surely as a Sherman Tank...
It was ONLY when I examined some brochures kindly sent by Santana, and perused over some other tandem manufacturers websites, that I have "realised" that I have been running a "considerable risk" in riding such a creature.
It is true, that if you go downhill at 50MPH or more, then you don't want your tandem bike to fall apart ! Or run out of brakes in the process of trying to stop it.
The topic is about "choosing". My situation is all about "limitations".
If I had the choice, of course I would like to have more-per-quid or bucks. So let's see what I can do to help in this matter.
Here's what I understood were the most sensible advices already given in this topic (and would be my own personal check list) :
1. Are you a begginer? If not, jump to square 6, you belong there.
Beginners, consider testing a fair number of bikes, but settle for the less expensive... unless your pocket knows no end ... but then you would be missing the fun part of the process !
2. Between the "less expensive's", consider the one favoured by the market (best resale price). If you upgrade, you would like to throw your used bike in the deal wouldn't you?
3, Better still, search for some store-owner who would take your bike back in a future upgrade, at a fixed depreciation rate or fixed price.
Silly boys, of course it is the same shop where you will BUY the tandem in the first place, unless you want to play dice with the future.
The magic moment in which you wave goodbye to your money, is preceded by that other magic moment in which you can try have the shopowner to swear something to this effect ("how much will you pay for this bike in case I come back in a year or so and want to upgrade?" That's a good starting question).
It is no impossible task. My local shop has this policy, pity they don't carry tandems...
4. Number 2 and 3 already are the answer in choosing the material (Alu vs Chrome etc.). Let the market decide. A beginner is a begger in all and every sense (a beginner in want to spend his money too fast, is a fool... a fool and his money, they soon get part ... it goes back to the basic principles anyway).
Don't worry, later on you will become a chooser, by mere practice.
5. When in doubt about two good brands, consider how much of knowledge you have over these two (or more) brands.
If you don't have enough expertise to decide for yourself, let the market decide for you, as the market has been always wiser than anyone else. If the market is not "wiser", well, at least it is the one who will buy your bike when you want to sell it... so you should hear it first place...
If you want to gather experience on a particular brand, get back to square two, the only difference is that you will start by the lower-rank options of that particular brand you want to know more about (or you have soft eyes for, we all have our Ferraris and Porsches).
Take notes, make your own check lists, participate in the forums, try a test-drive whenever possible... there's SO MUCH of education available, a click away from us... and don't be fooled by the marketing appeals, or the "status" attached to some high-street names, unless you want to keep up with the Jonesis (and pay the relevant tuition fee).
6. You have finally reached the pinnacles of expertise in all Tandem brands, makes and models.
Congrats!
THEN you are free to make your own mind up, spend as much as you want (have an eye out for those all-carbon tandems the big boys of this industry are releasing now... that's what I call big-buck call)
But then, at this point you either don't need to buy a bike already with an eye out for the possible re-sale price (in which case you can surrender entirely to your own taste and personal eccentricities, you have dug your way up the ranks, and your money is your money, you are entitled to do whatever you want) or you are so experienced in the business of tandems that you will find it so natural to pick up the bike which holds the best of both worlds (best resale price AND bearing the highest rate of qualities you seek in a tandem bike).
Let's have a beer?
There is a guy in Eugene (where Co-Motion is made) who has a used Co-Motion Java tamdem for sale. An advantage to buying here is the opportunity to have a factory inspection before purchase. If you'd like to contact the seller for information, PM me and I'll send his email to you in a reply.
You will only get a good tandem if you spend some money IMHO. That being said....I have been a cyclist for around 20 years. I have never ridden a finer handling bike single or tandem as my Co-Motion. I have ridden a santana and it is comparable, I have ridden a borthwick and it was nice but not as silky as my co-mo, The trek was nowhere near as nice and Neither was the Cannondale. For a few hundred more you get much nicer bike. Yes perhaps I am a co-mo snob but its the tandem that made me that way. My CO- MO is a much smaller company allowing them to focus on detail and Much higher quality. Trek is a very large bicycle company that Is more into mass production. They are a bicycle company that got into the Tandem scene later. CO-Motion started out as Tandem company that is now making small numbers of singles. you can buy frozen bagels at the grocer or you can go to the bagel shop and buy them from the bagel maker. Which tastes better? But which costs more?
This is something that could be debated until the cows come home. The cost difference between frozen bagels and fresh bagels is not very much - dozen fresh cost 5 bucks, half dozen frozen cost $2.30. Fresh tastes better the first day, frozen taste better the 3rd day..
Anyway, there is a point with all things where diminishing returns come into play. If the Trek and the Co Mo had the exact same components and the Co Mo was only a few hundred more, than it might be a sale. But if it was a thousand more? Most likely not, with me anyway.
My observations tell me that hardly any team is really going to barrel down hills at 60 MPH on these things (TandemGeek accepted) and fewer still are going to race them. Most tandems get adorned with funny little personalized stuffed animals, bags and racks and are used to meander around the hinterlands. If you need the status symbol, then you know what you are going to buy anyway. I have noticed an inverse relationship between tandem cost and team speed. Seems the slower teams ride the more expensive bikes and the faster teams have middle-of-the-range bikes. Of course there are exceptions, but, the slowest team I have ever been on a local tandem group ride with had a $10,000 Calfee. They were 45 minutes behind the group after 25 miles. One of the faster teams had a 12 year old steel Santana with couplers. A weak rider on the team is going to negate any performance difference in the bike many times over.
If you are on a budget or are not going to ride the bike more than once a week or so, don’t sweet the details. Test ride it. If you like it and like the dealer, buy it.
Just my .02
My observations tell me that hardly any team is really going to barrel down hills at 60 MPH on these things
Speak for yourself. :)
I feel cheated if my tandem ride for the day doesn't break 50 and truly depressed if we don't hit 40. :)
Galen, I liked your approach,
If you need the status symbol, then you know what you are going to buy anyway. I have noticed an inverse relationship between tandem cost and team speed.
Granted. As I noted before, keeping up with the Jonesis costs money.
Seems the slower teams ride the more expensive bikes and the faster teams have middle-of-the-range bikes. Of course there are exceptions, but, the slowest team I have ever been on a local tandem group ride with had a $10,000 Calfee.
When we start in life, we are obviously "young". As youngsters, we usually have plenty of "time" to play around. But we don't really have "money" to spend freely at these early days of our lives. Most of us have to work a lot in order to get the money, so we end up not having time to play around, because of course we are too busy at work. We then are still young, have some money but no time (or other priorities) to spend it in "play" things. Later in life, we may realise that we have amassed a regular amount of money. Then, as retired people, we will have plenty time to spend it. BUT WE WON'T BE YOUNG ANYMORE...
It's such a basic, ancient story, but still stands true, and Galen's quoted statement is just another proof of it. It explains why the "inverted triangles" explain better the performance-per-quid paradox noticed by Galen
If you are on a budget or are not going to ride the bike more than once a week or so, don’t sweet the details. Test ride it. If you like it and like the dealer, buy it.
Agreed !!!
Just my .02
You all are about to talk me into trying a Co-Motion. I wish I could compare a Co-Motion against a Burley. The Trek is here for us to try. I actually contacted the local tandem club here (Double Dates?!?) and one of the responses was simialar to 'Why do you want to ride a Burley'.
Not sure how to take that response. Can't tell if they thought Burley was scrap or just wondering why I was so deadset on a Burley.
You could fly out to Eugene for a few days, Co-Motion and Burley factories are just a few blocks from each other, and you can test both. They are both most welcoming, and the opportunity to talk with both companies, ride the bikes and compare would help you decide. You could also have them fit you and your co-pilot. Test rides could include any type of terrain you chose, we have it all.
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