Are you volunteering? In 1900, farming was the most prevalent occupation in the US. With the advent of industrialization, people moved away from farming to work in factories because the conditions were so much better. Without machinery, producing enough food to feed the nation would probably take half of the population.
Well I'll tell you, several people in my family were farmers. Thats where I spent most of my summers growing up. I've also worked in factories. Anyone who says that the conditions working in a factory are better than a farm either has no clue what they are talking about or is outright lying.
Since it didn't take half the population before the internal combustion engine, there's no reason for it to after.
Volunteering? Absolutely. Even using the highly inflated figure of one person farming feeding two people, that would just about perfectly take care of my wife and myself. In these days of suburban housing editions it's pretty hard to find a piece of farm land for sale that is small enough to feed just one family, but that is one of two options currently under VERY serious consideration for us.
lilHinault
05-31-05, 01:57 AM
I think there's a huge difference between a large farm, producing for sale, stuff like large amounts of wheat, tobacco, etc which was once done with human and animal power - that was apparently hard work. Contrast a family living on a few acres, growing a variety of stuff mostly for their own use and perhaps they like chickens so they have more eggs/chickens than they need, so those are sold or bartered. A small, family type farm in Illichville (look that up) is not going to involve the kind of labor the media and factory employers over the last 100 or so years have been trying to scare us with.
pseudobrit
05-31-05, 06:20 AM
Well I'll tell you, several people in my family were farmers. Thats where I spent most of my summers growing up. I've also worked in factories. Anyone who says that the conditions working in a factory are better than a farm either has no clue what they are talking about or is outright lying.
Very true. Most people who made the move from farm to factory did so because the farm opportunities were becoming very limited, not because the conditions were better. Many of them were women who would not have inherited any of the family land and would be forced to marry out of desperation. The factory gave them independence from the system.
supcom
05-31-05, 07:43 AM
Well I'll tell you, several people in my family were farmers. Thats where I spent most of my summers growing up. I've also worked in factories. Anyone who says that the conditions working in a factory are better than a farm either has no clue what they are talking about or is outright lying.
I suspect you did not start your working career until much later than 1900.
Farming and factories today are nothing like they used to be. In 1900, when there was basically human and animal power available, farming was a 12 hour, 7 day a week job and was much harder work than today. By comparison, factory work, as dangerous as it was then, required only 8 hours a day, 6 days a week and almost certainly paid better wages.
By the way, behind farm work, in 1900, the second most prevalent occupation was live-in domestic servant. A family with three, or more, domestic servants was considered upper middle class. One or two domestic servants was lower middles class. Like farming, domestic work involved long hours, 7 days a week, generally with poor living conditions. And like farming, as demand for factory workers increased, people left domestic work in droves.
lilHinault
06-01-05, 01:46 AM
Supcom are you so sure about this? The Amish live the old way and they seem pretty happy - and they give their kids a time in their teens to go out and see the world, and most of them decide to continue with the Amish life. Were *you* working back around 1900?
pseudobrit
06-01-05, 06:36 AM
factory work, as dangerous as it was then, required only 8 hours a day
???
No way.
Primevci
06-01-05, 01:26 PM
actually unions fought for the 8 hr a day 5 day a week, before that it was 7 days a week 12 hrs a day no lunch or breaks in facotry work there is how ever a few exceptions... History channel is cool
lilHinault
06-01-05, 02:21 PM
Yep the 8-hour day was a major Union battle, and victory. Heck we just about had a revolution in this country in the 19-teens and then in the 1930s.
supcom
06-01-05, 04:35 PM
Supcom are you so sure about this? The Amish live the old way and they seem pretty happy - and they give their kids a time in their teens to go out and see the world, and most of them decide to continue with the Amish life. Were *you* working back around 1900?
Yeah, and trappist monks seem to be happy as well. People who are motivated can live under pretty harsh conditions. As far as I know, Amish are basically subsistence farmers. Probably not a good way to feed the nation.
Unless, of course, you are also volunteering to work the land.
lilHinault
06-01-05, 11:09 PM
The kind of farmers the Amish are DID feed the nation not all that long ago, and we all might feel very fortunate if we have some land to work, in time......
Primevci
06-02-05, 03:48 AM
Yep the 8-hour day was a major Union battle, and victory. Heck we just about had a revolution in this country in the 19-teens and then in the 1930s.
You in one? im in Local 290...
mpop
06-06-05, 05:46 PM
I recorded the show on my dvr I am 1/2 though it, all I can say is it is propiganda, for those who did it nice "touch" making it look like a "future" "documentary" I like how they made the winter of 2005 to be the worst in a long time to boot hahahahahaha (what about global warming)
True if oil prices go up we will have problems but, this show hurts the cridablity of the people who are talking about getting off our oil dependance and on to alternative energy (this I do agree with)
Alekhine
06-06-05, 06:14 PM
I like how they made the winter of 2005 to be the worst in a long time to boot hahahahahaha (what about global warming)
I don't really want to get into this, but...
I haven't watched the show in question, but global warming does allow for cold spikes, and indeed even allows for short-term (a decade is short term, by the way) cold spikes in various specific areas of the globe, though the net effect globally and over a period of years is towards warmth, and this is agreed upon by the current climatology community. There's a difference between climate and weather (http://environment.about.com/cs/globalwarming/f/weatherclimate.htm), and annual temperature peaks and valleys on a graph mean next to nothing in terms of the overall aggregate of periods that are measured in terms of several decades. Global warming is a longterm climate problem, not a seasonal weather problem, in other words.
This is why, when Michael Crichton came out with his supposed "hard science" novel (it had footnotes!) about global warming, and made the mistake of pointing out cold spikes on a fictional Argentinian (local) graph chart, and had the "brilliant" main character smarmily pointing at the chart and saying, "There's your global warming," it was laughed off the face of the earth by everyone in the climatology community (and everyone else who knew better), but embraced heartily by people like James Inhofe (R-OK), the second-most greased up congressman in the nation by the energy companies, and every other Rush Limbaugh-type cyst in this great but currently scary country of ours.
mpop
06-06-05, 06:31 PM
Merton, I was not saying that there is not a oil issue, but "Oil Storm" that was on FX is just propiganda is what I am saying.
mpop
06-06-05, 06:43 PM
Ok, then thanks and sorry for miss reading what you posted.
Dchiefransom
06-06-05, 07:06 PM
I didn't watch the entire thing, but parts of it. The one thing that's true, at least for my area, is that any disruption in refining plants would cause big problems. The ones in this part of the country are just about at full capacity, and they don't want to build any more.
As a person that lived in the suburbs of Detroit in the summer of 1967, I think they left out a lot of stuff that the goverment couldn't cope with very well.
lilHinault
06-07-05, 12:49 AM
PrimeVCI - nope not in a union, I wish!
lilHinault
06-07-05, 12:50 AM
Hey how much did the gas price go up in the 1970s panic? 50 cents? People were, in some places, pulling guns on each other over that.
Miracle Whip
06-07-05, 05:53 AM
I was wondering what happened to all the Y2K zealots.
supcom
06-07-05, 07:16 AM
I was wondering what happened to all the Y2K zealots.
Good point! I had forgotten all about Y2K. The lesson of Y2K was never to tie your apocalyptic predictions to a hard date. It's much better to be vague so you don't lose all your credibility at once.
mpop
06-07-05, 08:35 AM
Y2K was fun for me, I did not belive that the world would end, so I went out the stores Dec 31 1999 to watch people in panic buying up all the food they could get (yes people were still stock piling)
My favorit thing for 2000 did not come on New years day but Feb 29 of the same year, I was at a store and the woman asked if she should date her check for March first because Feb 29 did not exist for the computers in 2000.
I had a good old time the months leading up and following the "apocalypts" :D
Mr. Miskatonic
06-07-05, 08:36 AM
Supcom are you so sure about this? The Amish live the old way and they seem pretty happy - and they give their kids a time in their teens to go out and see the world, and most of them decide to continue with the Amish life.
There are very strong economic incentives to remain in the Amish church, and and Amish childhood does not exactly prepare someone for life in the mdodern world. Still many stay and others go. Its not a right or wrong decision either way.
Mr. Miskatonic
06-07-05, 08:39 AM
I was wondering what happened to all the Y2K zealots.
What he said. Man, I hate panic-mongerers. And some of the drooling over 'no oil means no cars' I've seen in 'Peak Oil' threads is shameful.
cruentus
06-07-05, 10:29 AM
I was wondering what happened to all the Y2K zealots.
The end of the world will come, you'll see, and I'll be the one laughing then.
On the other hand, I wish I could find the guy who sold me those dehydrated water packs.
dobber
06-07-05, 11:02 AM
The end of the world will come, you'll see, and I'll be the one laughing then.
Had a bible thumpin guy here at work who was really pushing the whole Y2K / Rapture / End of the World routine. I never miss an opportunity to bust his chops over it.
supcom
06-07-05, 11:07 AM
Had a bible thumpin guy here at work who was really pushing the whole Y2K / Rapture / End of the World routine. I never miss an opportunity to bust his chops over it.
I'll bet he was really disappointed when the lights stayed on.
cruentus
06-07-05, 11:07 AM
Had a bible thumpin guy here at work who was really pushing the whole Y2K / Rapture / End of the World routine. I never miss an opportunity to bust his chops over it.
You work at the White House?
mpop
06-07-05, 11:15 AM
dobber, please remember not all Christians are Premillennialism Dispensation, which obvoisly your co-worker is. I beinga lcms Lutheran (http://www.lcms.org) am a Amillennialism if you want you can look at http://www.lcms.org/graphics/assets/media/CTCR/endtme-2.pdf for a statement the lcms gave on the issue.
dobber
06-07-05, 05:27 PM
I'll bet he was really disappointed when the lights stayed on.
The funniest (or saddest depending upon your point of view) thing was this guy is absolutely a brilliant engineer / motorhead.
lilHinault
06-08-05, 02:19 AM
There are a whole lot of engineering folks, some really brilliant ones, who believe in stuff like "intelligent design", spy satellites listening to their thoughs, all kinds of goofy bible-thumper and tinfoil hat stuff. It's amazing.
HiYoSilver
06-08-05, 01:37 PM
Hey, it's just a normal TV "NEWS" event created for ratings and market share. It'll be more of the sky is falling tomorrow stuff.
Carter sucked as a Pres, but he did one thing right-- focus a bit on the need for energy conservation. The political fad has come and gone and we are still left with a mess. We need renewable energy resources. The French have got one thing right, nuclear power is better than burning up oil and gas reserves.
There only seem to be 3 options now:
nuclear energy-- fission or fusion. Drawback-- where to store waste.
wind energy-- Drawbacks: noise, filling the landscape with windmills, unknown effect on migrating birds
wave energy-- Drawback: technology still in infant stages
If 1/2 the funding for war on terror was going into research for a viable renewable energy resource, then maybe we'ld have some decent options in a few decades. The way we're going we're going to use up natural gas and oil, and then deal with the crisis problem.
I would not hold my breath expecting this show to scare people into riding bikes, but maybe you can use this show to advocate a vehicle tax based on gross vehicle weight that could be used to fund research into renewable energy.
Or use a vehicle tax idea as a wealth sharing idea. With 1040 form, you include vehicle registration forms and from a table calculate your gross weight. Each 1,000 of vehicle weight is taxed, at say $25. This tax is put into a separate side fund and is exempt from politican's raiding for other purposes. The average of last year's tax/return is calculated. For this tax year, if your vehicles weights is lower than the average, i.e. bike only commuter, you get a refund. If it is higher than average, you get no refund.
mpop
06-08-05, 01:59 PM
There is a problem with that, I will not go into the gross problem with wealth redistrubution, but are you going to panilize large families, that need larger cars, if a family has 4 children they can not use a honda civic, no they will need mini-van (sorry station wagans are not all the pelentaful) so you are saying a family of 6 should be punished. How about the family that has 6 children?? (yes that still happens I know of one such family)
C Law
06-08-05, 02:19 PM
Don't worry
The family with 6 kids will save enough on income taxes to pay the added tax generated by using a larger vehicle.
Not that they shouldn't get a break. , but it should more than offset any fees for a larger vehicle.
What is the problem with wealth redistribution? too much? too little?
pedex
06-08-05, 02:19 PM
If they can afford to have 4 kids then they can ante up and pay for a bigger vehicle.Part of the energy solution in our society will ultimately lead to less population,we can do it voluntarily or nature will do it for us.I have my doubts people will actually wise up and deal with the situation reasonably, the US has had more than 100yrs of brainwashing and buiding an unsustainable system of living.The whole thought process and scale of the problem is completely lost on 98% of the people out there.
mpop
06-08-05, 02:23 PM
unsuspended, the problem with wealth redistribution, look at the failure of comunism, socialism. So I would say any wealth redistribution is to much.
and pedex, so you are saying that you and 2% of the population is smarter then every one else? To me that just seams arrogant of you.
C Law
06-08-05, 02:37 PM
unsuspended, the problem with wealth redistribution, look at the failure of comunism, socialism. So I would say any wealth redistribution is to much.
Well, some redistribution of wealth is inherent in all income tax systems, but we could definately use less of it.
Socialism hasn't failed yet has it? Still going strong in the EU last time I checked.
Darren
06-08-05, 05:54 PM
The whole thought process and scale of the problem is completely lost on 98% of the people out there.
Sorry, I believe you are wrong on your numbers, it's probably more on the order of 99.8% unfortunately. Arrogant? Maybe. Factual? probably.
The television show I asked about was a complete waste of a good two hours which I could have spent doing something more constructive like staring at the wall, I'm sorry if my post asking about it caused anyone else to waste time watching it as well. I should have known..., isn't FX owned by the Fox network...the same ones that run that far right wing conservative news channel Fox News? The show was completely devoid of any useful or enlightening information that anyone in the general public could use or learn from.
pedex
06-08-05, 06:22 PM
Not saying smarter,im saying more informed and concerned and aware of what most of our choices here in the US really mean in terms of resources and consequences.
For example, how many calories in gasoline does each calorie of food that you eat cost?
If petroleum was suddenly removed from the planet, how many people can earth support with existing technology?
How much of US society can survive without oil?
What are the consequences on US society when cheap energy input is removed?
These are very basic fundamental questions, I doubt even 1% of america knows these answers or even has a clue.It isnt a question of smarts, just basic knowledge,education, and a little common sense.
randya
06-08-05, 06:26 PM
There is a problem with that, I will not go into the gross problem with wealth redistrubution, but are you going to panilize large families, that need larger cars, if a family has 4 children they can not use a honda civic, no they will need mini-van (sorry station wagans are not all the pelentaful) so you are saying a family of 6 should be punished. How about the family that has 6 children?? (yes that still happens I know of one such family)
Population growth is the number one environmental problem today, most other environmental problems are either caused by or exacerbated by population growth. Nobody should be having six kids, get a vasectomy for cryin' out loud!
mpop
06-08-05, 06:40 PM
Nobody should be having six kids, get a vasectomy for cryin' out loud!
And who are you decide how many children a married couple can have, why not limit it to 2, 1? how about forced vasectomies for any one that has more the 2?? They force weman to have abortions in china, is that what you want?? Sorry I prefure the right to life, and people the have children if they want (and if they don't children they should practise abstance)
Darren
08-31-05, 07:46 PM
Bumbing this thread back to the top...
hmmm...remember this show that I was asking about and I thought was a waste of time after watching it? Well, I guess all we need are a few more events to happen for things to somewhat emulate what this show covered...