Following this and expect to hear more about what happened. Not clear as to how this happened. Sounds like other cyclists were witnesses.
Did he simply not look... Did the car come out of nowhere... Where exactly was he on the road???
**********************
A woman who allegedly abandoned her vehicle after it hit and killed a bicyclist in the Cleveland National Forest was in custody Tuesday, according to the California Highway Patrol.
Marty Garcia, 42, a UPS driver from Chula Vista, died from injuries suffered in the collision on Japatul Road near Japatul Spur about 10 a.m. Sunday, according to the California Highway Patrol and the county Medical Examiner's Office.
Garcia was riding east with other bicyclists when he doubled back to join another member of the group, and that was when the collision occurred, according to the CHP.
Deborah Hirt, 37, of Descanso, was driving behind him at about 60 mph in a 1998 Saturn and tried to swerve to avoid hitting him, said CHP Officer Brian Pennings.
The Saturn spun out of control, crossed over the double yellow line and into the eastbound lane, where it struck Garcia, who crashed into the windshield, Pennings said.
The Saturn continued across the eastbound lane and struck a dirt embankment, propelling Garcia about 80 feet, Pennings said.
Garcia died at the scene.
The driver fled the scene.
Witnesses told the CHP that a woman with blonde hair, who had been driving the Saturn ran into the brush, CHP Officer James Bettencourt said.
At about 3 p.m. Monday, the CHP was contacted by an official at Grossmont Hospital, who said Hirt had requested medical treatment and wished to turn herself in.
She was treated and then taken into custody by the CHP.
After being questioned, Hirt was booked into the Las Colinas Women's Detention Facility on suspicion of felony hit-and-run, Pennings said.
On the SDCBC email list there was an unconfirmed report that indicated the cyclist who was hit was in the process of executing a U-turn, which is consistent with this report: "when he doubled back ... and that was when the collision occurred".
In any case, it does not seem like the much feared but very rarely seen case of a cyclist simply riding along a road and hit from behind.
Serge
Litespeed
05-31-05, 05:48 PM
Hate to see anything like this happen, especially when it is a road that doesn't have much traffic on it to begin with. I'm telling my husband to be careful even out in the rural areas.
genec
05-31-05, 05:57 PM
On the SDCBC email list there was an unconfirmed report that indicated the cyclist who was hit was in the process of executing a U-turn, which is consistent with this report: "when he doubled back ... and that was when the collision occurred".
In any case, it does not seem like the much feared but very rarely seen case of a cyclist simply riding along a road and hit from behind.
Serge
The newspaper reported the same thing... both yesterday and this morning. What I want to know is who didn't see whom? And why?
Helmet Head
05-31-05, 06:17 PM
After looking on maps.google.com, I'm curious too. I assumed there was a blind curve or something, but I don't see one near the intersection of Japutal Road and Japutal Spur, where the incident was to have occured.
The newspaper reported the same thing... both yesterday and this morning. What I want to know is who didn't see whom? And why?
I have a friend on the 'net in Florida that was out riding, and a guy that had been riding with his wife was following her. Apparently, she rode a different route, and when he realized it, he started a U-turn out in front of her to get back to where his wife should be riding. He turned directly in front of an RV, and they had no time to stop.
Once on an organized ride I missed a turn, and was going to make a U-turn on a major two lane road. For some reason, I stopped before entering the lane, and a big truck went by. Never again will I make that maneuver without stopping and waiting.
slvoid
05-31-05, 09:34 PM
Always check before making a u-turn.
On the streets where I know I can mash and accelerate to speed fast enough, I do it, but on a road where cars are doing 50mph, I pull off to the side, stop, then go perpendicular where I have a clear view of the road on both sides.
Santaria
05-31-05, 10:20 PM
Yep, stop, turn the bike so your facing back towards traffic and watch for a safe opening...that's how I've always done it anyhow.
powertoold
06-01-05, 12:29 AM
You're always told to go only as fast as conditions allow; of course, not many drivers actually follow this rule. People need to slow down when passing cyclists. I really can't imagine a car burning 3 feet by me at 60mph. The draft alone would probably startle me, if not shake me.
I-Like-To-Bike
06-01-05, 03:57 AM
You're always told to go only as fast as conditions allow; of course, not many drivers actually follow this rule. People need to slow down when passing cyclists. I really can't imagine a car burning 3 feet by me at 60mph. The draft alone would probably startle me, if not shake me.
WHO is telling, or WHAT rule tells drivers at a legal high speed that they "need" to slow down when passing a slower moving vehicle or bicycle?
If you can't even imagine cycling and being passed by 60 mph vehicles up close and personal, I would guess that your experience cycling ON high speed roads is limited to the Internet and/or books.
genec
06-01-05, 08:26 AM
WHO is telling, or WHAT rule tells drivers at a legal high speed that they "need" to slow down when passing a slower moving vehicle or bicycle?
If you can't even imagine cycling and being passed by 60 mph vehicles up close and personal, I would guess that your experience cycling ON high speed roads is limited to the Internet and/or books.
He actually made two different statements there; separated by a semicolon.
You're always told to go only as fast as conditions allow; of course, not many drivers actually follow this rule. People need to slow down when passing cyclists. I really can't imagine a car burning 3 feet by me at 60mph. The draft alone would probably startle me, if not shake me.
The first statement is a reference to the "basic speed law" that most states have regarding driving at a speed proper for the conditions. In California it is:
22350. No person shall drive a vehicle upon a highway at a speed greater than is reasonable or prudent having due regard for weather, visibility, the traffic on, and the surface and width of, the highway, and in no event at a speed which endangers the safety of persons or property.
Note in particular the reference to visibility and traffic... and then later the references to endangering persons. Therefore if the speed limit posted for the area is 75 MPH, but it is a windy twising road filled with cyclists... perhaps one should slow down.
billh
06-01-05, 09:44 AM
If you are a motorist and not under the influence of drugs or alcohol, DO NOT flee the scene. You can pretty much hit and kill a cyclist and just claim, "I didn't see him" or "she came out of nowhere" or "they suddenly appeared in front of my windshield"; and you will not be charged with any crime.
scarry
06-01-05, 10:11 AM
WHO is telling, or WHAT rule tells drivers at a legal high speed that they "need" to slow down when passing a slower moving vehicle or bicycle?
If you can't even imagine cycling and being passed by 60 mph vehicles up close and personal, I would guess that your experience cycling ON high speed roads is limited to the Internet and/or books.
This is the law. It's called the basic speed law and takes precedence over the posted speed limit.
http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d11/vc22350.htm
Basic Speed Law
22350. No person shall drive a vehicle upon a highway at a speed greater than is reasonable or prudent having due regard for weather, visibility, the traffic on, and the surface and width of, the highway, and in no event at a speed which endangers the safety of persons or property.
This means if the posted speed limit is 55, and you feel entitled to maintain 55, but the road is wet, visibility is impaired, the road has blind curves, or if you speed indangers other road uses, (like cyclists) then YOU ARE GOING TOO FAST FOR CONDITIONS.
I-Like-To-Bike
06-01-05, 10:45 AM
Basic Speed Law
This means if the posted speed limit is 55, and you feel entitled to maintain 55, but the road is wet, visibility is impaired, the road has blind curves, or if you speed indangers other road uses, (like cyclists) then YOU ARE GOING TOO FAST FOR CONDITIONS.
The issue is a claimed "need" for motorists to slow down while passing bicycles (not visability or weather conditions), and sorry this "need" doesn't pass any smell test for any kind of "basic law" in any real world of traffic.
In fact in dense high speed traffic, slowing down while passing could be considered reckless driving if other vehicles are following closely at speed. Typical drivers will have no expectation that a motorist will take it upon himself to suddenly slow down while passing because of the presence of a cyclist.
BTW, what speed does a motorist "need" to slow down to on a 55mph road to comply with this so called basic speed law? Any of you club house lawyers run this slow-down-when-passing-scheme past a real lawyer or law enforcement official?
Helmet Head
06-01-05, 10:49 AM
In fact in dense high speed traffic, slowing down while passing could be considered reckless driving if other vehicles are following closely at speed. Typical drivers will have no expectation that a motorist will take it upon himself to suddenly slow down while passing because of the presence of a cyclist.
Freeway mentality has no place on roads where cycling is not prohibited.
Serge
I-Like-To-Bike
06-01-05, 11:24 AM
Freeway mentality has no place on roads where cycling is not prohibited.
Serge
Perhaps not on Planet Serge; but most people find themselves bicycling in this world, not an imaginary one of wishful thinking.
webist
06-01-05, 12:17 PM
I gotta agree. I really can't see anyone slowing down to pass anything. Slowing to wait for an opportunity to get around perhaps, but not slowing when the opportunity to pass is clear.
Helmet Head
06-01-05, 12:19 PM
The spreading of freeway mentality to non-freeway roads is a phenomenon that should be curtailed.
One question: Are you and your ideas part of the solution, or the problem?
genec
06-01-05, 12:36 PM
I wonder what the speed limit was on that isolated back country section of two lane black top... I really doubt it was 60.
Used to ride that area all the time... it was probably 45MPH back then... 'course them traffic engineers have this nasty habit of jacking up speeds...
Helmet Head
06-01-05, 12:40 PM
The default speed for rural highways like that is 55 mph.
I-Like-To-Bike
06-01-05, 12:41 PM
The spreading of freeway mentality to non-freeway roads is a phenomenon that should be curtailed.
One question: Are you and your ideas part of the solution, or the problem?
IMO the only problem in evidence on this detour of the original thread is an objection to poking at the house-of-cards/wishful-thinking-dream-world scenarios upon which some zealous vehicular cycling advocates and/or lawyer wannabes place so much faith.
I am sure when the King of Planet Serge is given the power to right all wrongs as he sees fit, freeway mentality will be outlawed and no longer an issue of concern for cyclists. Until then I prefer to deal with the world of reality.
Helmet Head
06-01-05, 12:58 PM
I see. Part of the problem.
powertoold
06-01-05, 01:11 PM
Actually, every once in a while, I see drivers slow down or move to the left to give a cyclist more room even where there is a clear passing space. Therefore, the driver is aware of the cyclist's presence and knows that moving close to the cyclist at a high speed presents a more risky situation. When there is little room to the left, sometimes a car will slow down instead of moving to the left.
Personally, I always try to drive in a way that will give me more time to react if there is a problem. This means I will not drive fast if the sun is in my eyes. I will not drive anymore than 15mph in residential areas where I see children. I don't know about you, but passing by a cyclist at 60mph seems crazy to me. Even when I am in my car and pickup or van passes by me at 45mph, my whole car shakes. Of course, some people don't really care about others, and that's the way it is. You can hate them, but they will never go away.
Helmet Head
06-01-05, 01:17 PM
Actually, every once in a while, I see drivers slow down or move to the left to give a cyclist more room even where there is a clear passing space. Therefore, the driver is aware of the cyclist's presence and knows that moving close to the cyclist at a high speed presents a more risky situation. When there is little room to the left, sometimes a car will slow down instead of moving to the left.
I see this happen quite often as well, but practically never when the cyclist is riding in a bike lane. In that case, motorists pass by him as if he is not even there.
scarry
06-01-05, 02:24 PM
I see. Part of the problem.
Some people just don't want to take the foot off the accelerator.
The question is, how high do gas prices got to go before people do take their foot off the accelerator.
I see this mentality all the time when driving. There is a red light ahead, and I am coasting up to it, meanwhile, cars are passing me, and I can hear their engines roaring, until they are right at the stopped cars, then they jam on the brakes, while I coast up to them, usually at the same time the light changes, allowing me to not have to stop at all. Saves gas and brakes.
powertoold
06-01-05, 03:07 PM
lol, seriously, im in the middle lane, i see a long line of cars up ahead at a red light, i take my foot off the gas while others speed all the way until they have to stop, its like they HAVE to either press the gas or the brakes
genec
06-01-05, 03:13 PM
lol, seriously, im in the middle lane, i see a long line of cars up ahead at a red light, i take my foot off the gas while others speed all the way until they have to stop, its like they HAVE to either press the gas or the brakes
Yeah, my wife does this too and cannot quite figure out why her brakes last about 1/5 as long as mine. She doesn't understand thermostats either... she pushes the thing up to 85 to get warm and down to 65 to get cool...
After 21 years, I have given up on explaining it. :eek:
noisebeam
06-01-05, 03:24 PM
Saves gas .
And lots of it. About 5+yrs ago I used to drive agressively, hard accel, 10mph+ over speed limit, hard braking, etc. I tracked mpg.
Then on a whim I started to drive with care and obey every law and coast into red lights and similar situations. My average (freeway/city combined) mpg went up 22%. I have thousands of before and after miles of data to support this (for a Ford Explorer, a smaller lighter fuel effcient car may not get as much of a benefit)
So it grates on me when people complain about gas prices going up when they could have a far bigger impact by adjusting their driving style - and still get everywhere just as quickly and with less stress.
Can you imagine if everyone drove in an effcient manner there could be about 10% less gas used! That is huge.
Al
scarry
06-01-05, 04:25 PM
Yeah, my wife does this too and cannot quite figure out why her brakes last about 1/5 as long as mine. She doesn't understand thermostats either... she pushes the thing up to 85 to get warm and down to 65 to get cool...
After 21 years, I have given up on explaining it. :eek:
I guess you have to be an engineer, or a bicyclist, to understand momentum and conservation of momentum. That Newton guy and all that.
dobber
06-01-05, 04:43 PM
http://www.10news.com/news/4548823/detail.html
Click on the photo link to the right. The 4th or 5th photo shows a shot of the road, pretty wide shoulders there. Makes this banter about passing rather silly.
genec
06-01-05, 05:47 PM
http://www.10news.com/news/4548823/detail.html
Click on the photo link to the right. The 4th or 5th photo shows a shot of the road, pretty wide shoulders there. Makes this banter about passing rather silly.
So the question remains... why did this really happen? Who lost sight of whom.
The link below is the roadway in question.
Helmet Head
06-01-05, 07:03 PM
What I don't get is this:
Garcia was riding east with other bicyclists when he doubled back to join another member of the group, and that was when the collision occurred, according to the CHP.
Deborah Hirt, 37, of Descanso, was driving behind him at about 60 mph in a 1998 Saturn and tried to swerve to avoid hitting him, said CHP Officer Brian Pennings.
The Saturn spun out of control, crossed over the double yellow line and into the eastbound lane, where it struck Garcia, who crashed into the windshield, Pennings said.
OK, so if he was traveling east before he doubled back, then he was traveling west after he U-turned, right? Presumably in the westbound lane...
Yet it says Hirt crossed over the double yellow into the eastbound lane when her car struck him.
Maybe she was westbound, and he was just starting his U-turn, still in the eastbound lane, when she saw him, thought he was going to cut in front of her (and maybe she was right) so hit the brakes, lost control, and spun out of the westbound lane into the eastbound lane where he still was.
But it also says she was traveling behind him. Could he have U-turned within the eastbound lane, now traveling west in the eastbound lane, waiting for her to go by before moving to the westbound shoulder, when she hit the brakes and slid into him?
We'll find out for sure in about 3 months when the CHP finishes their report...
Serge
Dchiefransom
06-01-05, 08:30 PM
And lots of it. About 5+yrs ago I used to drive agressively, hard accel, 10mph+ over speed limit, hard braking, etc. I tracked mpg.
Then on a whim I started to drive with care and obey every law and coast into red lights and similar situations. My average (freeway/city combined) mpg went up 22%. I have thousands of before and after miles of data to support this (for a Ford Explorer, a smaller lighter fuel effcient car may not get as much of a benefit)
So it grates on me when people complain about gas prices going up when they could have a far bigger impact by adjusting their driving style - and still get everywhere just as quickly and with less stress.
Can you imagine if everyone drove in an effcient manner there could be about 10% less gas used! That is huge.
Al
I had a 4 cylinder 2wd Toyota pickup before, and it still makes a good difference in mileage when we drive "relaxed". I'd say at least 4-5 mpg around town.
genec
06-01-05, 10:37 PM
What I don't get is this:
Garcia was riding east with other bicyclists when he doubled back to join another member of the group, and that was when the collision occurred, according to the CHP.
Deborah Hirt, 37, of Descanso, was driving behind him at about 60 mph in a 1998 Saturn and tried to swerve to avoid hitting him, said CHP Officer Brian Pennings.
The Saturn spun out of control, crossed over the double yellow line and into the eastbound lane, where it struck Garcia, who crashed into the windshield, Pennings said.
OK, so if he was traveling east before he doubled back, then he was traveling west after he U-turned, right? Presumably in the westbound lane...
Yet it says Hirt crossed over the double yellow into the eastbound lane when her car struck him.
Maybe she was westbound, and he was just starting his U-turn, still in the eastbound lane, when she saw him, thought he was going to cut in front of her (and maybe she was right) so hit the brakes, lost control, and spun out of the westbound lane into the eastbound lane where he still was.
But it also says she was traveling behind him. Could he have U-turned within the eastbound lane, now traveling west in the eastbound lane, waiting for her to go by before moving to the westbound shoulder, when she hit the brakes and slid into him?
We'll find out for sure in about 3 months when the CHP finishes their report...
Serge
I thought it sounded odd too. Good analysis... since there were witnesses, hopefully it will all come out. Lots of road width there... so one really has to wonder. Could have been alcohol involved too... she did not turn herself in until the next day... so no alcohol tests could be done to validate the situation.
genec
06-03-05, 10:27 AM
.
.
Woman pleads not guilty in deadly hit-and-run
UNION-TRIBUNE
June 3, 2005
A 37-year-old Descanso woman pleaded not guilty in Superior Court yesterday to charges that she drove off after running down and killing a bicyclist Sunday on Japatul Road in East County.
Deborah Lee Hirt, also known as Deborah Alvarado, is charged with felony hit-and-run driving that resulted in death in connection with the crash that killed 42-year-old Marty Garcia of Chula Vista.
If convicted, Hirt could face a maximum penalty of five years in prison, prosecutor Leon Schorr said.
Judge Charles W. Ervin ordered Hirt held at Las Colinas Women's Detention Facility in lieu of $100,000 bail. The judge scheduled a June 15 hearing to determine if there is sufficient evidence to try Hirt.
Hirt was on parole for burglary and drug convictions, Schorr said.
Police said Hirt struck Garcia and knocked him 80 feet into a ravine. The impact caved in the windshield and top part of Hirt's 1998 Saturn, they said.
Garcia was wearing a helmet and was riding with a friend, police said. They said Hirt was driving about 60 mph when her car went into a skid as she tried to avoid Garcia.
Hirt turned herself in to police Monday at the urging of friends and her boyfriend, officials said.
OK. So you hit someone, and run. Then you pleady not guilty to... hit and run. Huh? Does she get partial credit for turning herself in the next day? She had nothing to lose since they were going to track her down via the vehicle she left at the scene, so I don't think so.
By all accounts, it sure seems like the cyclist was in the process of a U-turn when she saw him, skidded, and hit him.
Maybe he saw her coming, and started the U-turn anyway, knowing that there was no one behind him, and planning to complete the U after she passed. She saw him starting the U, assumed he would complete it in front of her (in her lane), hit the brakes and skidded, sliding across the yellow double line, into him.
If that's what happened, it would be difficult to assign much negligence to her, especially since they can't show much less prove that she was drunk. Does an inability to control a skid caused by reasonable avoidance panic braking constitute negligence? A tough sell, I think.
However, the hit and run seems much more sure than Michael Jackson's guilt.
Serge
genec
06-03-05, 01:49 PM
OK. So you hit someone, and run. Then you pleady not guilty to... hit and run. Huh? Does she get partial credit for turning herself in the next day? She had nothing to lose since they were going to track her down via the vehicle she left at the scene, so I don't think so.
By all accounts, it sure seems like the cyclist was in the process of a U-turn when she saw him, skidded, and hit him.
Maybe he saw her coming, and started the U-turn anyway, knowing that there was no one behind him, and planning to complete the U after she passed. She saw him starting the U, assumed he would complete it in front of her (in her lane), hit the brakes and skidded, sliding across the yellow double line, into him.
If that's what happened, it would be difficult to assign much negligence to her, especially since they can't show much less prove that she was drunk. Does an inability to control a skid caused by reasonable avoidance panic braking constitute negligence? A tough sell, I think.
However, the hit and run seems much more sure than Michael Jackson's guilt.
Serge
There might possibly be a negligent driving charge coupled with exceeding the basic speed law.
The investigation and testamony of the witnesses will be the deciding factor.
barenakedbiker
06-03-05, 01:55 PM
If you are a motorist and not under the influence of drugs or alcohol, DO NOT flee the scene. You can pretty much hit and kill a cyclist and just claim, "I didn't see him" or "she came out of nowhere" or "they suddenly appeared in front of my windshield"; and you will not be charged with any crime.
This is actually the way the criminal (in)justice works against cyclists.