Renegade Cycling Nation?

[cstone]

I wanted to check the pulse of this community on an issue that has been bothering me for some time.

I am a former cyclist/biathlete, but now just a runner. My training frequently puts me on sidewalks and run/bike trails--I live in Alexandria, VA (near Washington DC) and frequently run on the Mt. Vernon trail between Alexandria and Falls Church VA. As a former cyclist, I learned to adhere to the "rules of the road", ie, following all road signs and respecting traffic laws. And as a runner who shares roads/paths with cyclists, I would expect the same.

Unfortunately, this is far from the norm.

In my many years in this area, I have as yet to see a cyclist come to a full stop at a stop sign, except when cars are actively crossing. Many cyclists do not wear helmets--their choice, but unsafe all the same, and a poor example for kids. At certain parts along the trail, the path narrows to one lane to cross under or over a bridge. Signs at both ends indicate that cyclists must dismount and walk their bikes, but none of them ever do. Heck, only a handful even slow down. Some of the macho guys in tights seems to think the trail is their own personal velodrome, whipping along at huge clips.

But my biggest complaint is the lack of warning and communication from cyclists. Only about 1 in every 10 ever says "on your left", "passing", or rings a bell or the like. If they do, it is usually just as they are passing. And unfortunately, many of those who don't are speeding along so fast that they don't see the dangerous curve and approaching runners/cyclists/etc.

I have now been hit by cyclists while I was running three times--twice the cyclist ran up my back because they tried to pass when it was unsafe, and then swerved back. The other time the guy blew through a stop sign, which he even admitted afterwards. I don't claim that many runners follow the road rules any better, in fact many of them don't. But the difference is that runners are normally only going 5-10mph while cyclists are going much faster, have shorter reaction times, and are riding a piece of machinery to boot.

Please tell your fellow cyclists to slow down and obey the rules of the road. The next injury they prevent could be their own.

[supcom]

There are certainly inconsiderate cyclists just as there are inconsiderate motorists. there is no excuse for running into a pedestrian on a MUT.

However, let me gripe just a bit about pedestrians (and runners). Near me there is a two mile bridge across a lake. This bridge has a nice bike lane physically separated from the main roadway. The lane is wide enough for two people or two bicycles to pass one another. So, why is it that pedestrians insist on walking side-by-side on the path. Why do they walk right down the center of the path? And why do they do this while listening to their iPods at full volume??? I have to call out "On your left!!!" about three times as I slowly approach these folks. It's only when I am almost right behind them (riding at their speed so as not to run into them) that they notice me. I intentionally stay far enough back so that when they get that "deer in the headlights" look and stop in the middle of the lane, I don't run into them.

Now, don't get me wrong. I have nothing against people on foot. I am not perturbed about slowing down and always pass slowly even when people can see me coming toward them. I would just like for people to recognise that the "Bike Lane" (that's how it is painted on the street) may have a cyclist or two on it and not take up the entire lane oblivious to anything but their newest mp3s.

With the nicer weather, I've pretty much abandoned the bike lane in favor of riding down the shoulder of the main roadway. There's less glass in the shoulder anyway.

[Guest]

I wanted to check the pulse of this community on an issue that has been bothering me for some time.

I am a former cyclist/biathlete, but now just a runner. My training frequently puts me on sidewalks and run/bike trails--I live in Alexandria, VA (near Washington DC) and frequently run on the Mt. Vernon trail between Alexandria and Falls Church VA. As a former cyclist, I learned to adhere to the "rules of the road", ie, following all road signs and respecting traffic laws. And as a runner who shares roads/paths with cyclists, I would expect the same.

Unfortunately, this is far from the norm.

In my many years in this area, I have as yet to see a cyclist come to a full stop at a stop sign, except when cars are actively crossing. Many cyclists do not wear helmets--their choice, but unsafe all the same, and a poor example for kids. At certain parts along the trail, the path narrows to one lane to cross under or over a bridge. Signs at both ends indicate that cyclists must dismount and walk their bikes, but none of them ever do. Heck, only a handful even slow down. Some of the macho guys in tights seems to think the trail is their own personal velodrome, whipping along at huge clips.

But my biggest complaint is the lack of warning and communication from cyclists. Only about 1 in every 10 ever says "on your left", "passing", or rings a bell or the like. If they do, it is usually just as they are passing. And unfortunately, many of those who don't are speeding along so fast that they don't see the dangerous curve and approaching runners/cyclists/etc.

I have now been hit by cyclists while I was running three times--twice the cyclist ran up my back because they tried to pass when it was unsafe, and then swerved back. The other time the guy blew through a stop sign, which he even admitted afterwards. I don't claim that many runners follow the road rules any better, in fact many of them don't. But the difference is that runners are normally only going 5-10mph while cyclists are going much faster, have shorter reaction times, and are riding a piece of machinery to boot.

Please tell your fellow cyclists to slow down and obey the rules of the road. The next injury they prevent could be their own.

Man, I know that path... I ride it regularly now, and it's become one of my favorite places to ride... when it hasn't rained, that is!

I am one of those cyclists who rings a bell. When I moved here, the second day I rode my bike, I ran into a not-for-profit giving out bells. I took the bell and they put it on my bike. I'm glad I did, because I ring it all the time. There's nothing more irritating to me than those folks out walking, running, etc. who have their headphones on, and I'm rolling down the hill at full speed dinging that bell like a dang rabid doorbell-ringer, and they can't hear me, or worse (like today), I'm trying to pass them and I'm dinging my bell, and others are riding in the opposite direction and there's no way to get around the person obstructing my path other than to grind to a screeching halt. I had to do that today, and I yelled at the lady "hey, take your headphones off!" as I passed. I nearly just avoided a nasty accident on that very same trail with this scenario I gave you.

Most folks on the trails are very courteous. I am from Chicago, and we don't have 89 miles of trail throughout the city to work with. We have bike lanes on the street, and we have the lakefront. Most days, those idiots out there on the lakefront will walk, run, etc. several abreast and the other side is constantly congested, so there's just no getting around avoiding the likely accident. In Chicago, more people die on our bike trails than riding a bike on the street, and those aren't good numbers. I find Virginia a refreshing change from all that. Everyone is much more polite, from cyclists and walkers, to cars. So the next time you're running on the trails, be thankful you're not in Chicago. You might be dead. Seriously.

I do agree that more cyclists should announce their presence if they're barrelling up behind you. Here in Virginia, the folks are so polite and good about sharing the road and the paths that I now find it more annoying when people don't do that. In Chicago, I wouldn't have cared, minded, or noticed. But out here, I think the etiquette is much higher, and overall, cyclists are very good about it. One thing you may want to do, though, is contact whoever maintains the trails and ask them to post speed limit signs. It was a shock to me to find out there even was a speed limit. I've only seen one speed limit sign so far posted on any bike trail. With a speed limit posted and strong urgings that if cyclists want to go faster, they should hit the street, that may help a little bit. But I do know that we cyclists should all help out the two footed friends sharing the path by giving them an announcement so they can adjust themselves. When it works out, no one's exercise is interrupted, and everything is all good. I don't think that many people are inconsiderate, though. Then again, I'm not a runner either! For the most part, I think the pedestrians are very great. I ring my bell about 10 yards or so away multiple times to let them know I'm coming up on them, and I get a little wave. Sometimes, I even get a verbal thanks. It's nice to be courteous and stuff because pedestrians are just so damn polite here. I am still trippin' on this. So not like Chicago AT ALL.

Something that posts the rules of the road would be nice. Yes, there are signs out telling people to give audible notice to slower folks, but I'm telling you, the only thing that allows me to see the signs is the fact that hills are handing me a can of whoopass right now, and I'm riding much slower than I would if I were in flat-as-a-pancake Chicago. If I were travelling faster, I wouldn't even see such signs up and about. Perhaps a bank or other institution with money to burn would be willing to print out bike maps for free and post the rules of the road on it and pass them out. They do that in Chicago (with BankOne), and it seems successful.

Even cars don't come to a complete stop at a stop sign. I don't think we cyclists should be required to fully stop either. That's just not gonna happen for me- if I get to a stop sign, if cars aren't there, I pick up the speed and keep rolling. I slow way down for the sign, but I don't stop. I don't want to lose my forward momentum. I am not going to dismount either. That's just plain silly. That would be like asking you guys to take off your shoes and walk across the street before putting your shoes back on to continue your run. Do it enough times, and you'd get irritated too. The dismount sign is clearly there as a liability factor more than anything. No one gets blamed but yourself if you get hit while riding across. The city will certainly say they recommended dismounting.

Don't worry about the helmet-less people. They will fall down and hit their heads and learn the hard way. I see a lot of recreational folks without helmets, but the more hardcore folks always have helmets. I don't know what's with the recreational folks except that they probably hardly ever ride, so they don't quite understand the importance of having a helmet. Let them learn the hard way, and don't be so concerned. It's not affecting your run, so you shouldn't have to worry about it... unless they fall and bash their brains in your running path and you just can't bring yourself to run in grey matter...

Koffee

[Helmet Head]

You're talking about a path... do the rules of the road even apply?
In CA, courts have ruled that such paths have the status of "dirt trails" with respect to how much liability the governing bodies have in maintaining them (none).

Paths are better than bike lanes, but they have their problems too.

[Guest]

On the paths he's talking about out here in VA, there are clear signs that tell bikes to dismount. There are also stop signs that look exactly like the street road signs you see in the street. And as I said, there's a speed limit sign on this path too. In various sections of the trail, they'll list the rules of the trail. That's pretty much what I follow.

Koffee

[dwightonabike]

Do you wear a helmet while running? It carries just about the same amount of risk as cycling.

[pseudobrit]

Do you wear a helmet while running? It carries just about the same amount of risk as cycling.

If you're really ****ing fast.

[ArtM]

One thing you may want to do, though, is contact whoever maintains the trails and ask them to post speed limit signs. It was a shock to me to find out there even was a speed limit. I've only seen one speed limit sign so far posted on any bike trail. With a speed limit posted and strong urgings that if cyclists want to go faster, they should hit the street, that may help a little bit.

o
o
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The dismount sign is clearly there as a liability factor more than anything. No one gets blamed but yourself if you get hit while riding across. The city will certainly say they recommended dismounting.


Koffee - I believe the Mt Vernon trail has a speed limit (15 MPH??) and that is probably a good limit for that trail as it is busy, narrow and with limited site lines along some curves. The W&OD is straighter, wider, etc. and hopefully they won't impose a limit on it - in the early morning, exceeding 15 is safe and reasonable.

There is one dismount sign on the Mt Vernon at an underpass that is wise to heed, the others are good to take it slow.

Regarding runners, I had a discussion with a runner training for a 50 miler who solely trains on the W&OD. He is very happy when he gets an audible warning from a cyclist. He said when he runs near the middle of the path, he gets a wider berth from passing cyclists vs. when he hugs the right side. He'd prefer not to run near the middle, but has found it safer.

[DCCommuter]

OK, here's a quiz. Take all of the above postings, and subsitute "car" for "bicycle" and "bicycle" for "pedestrian." Particularly this section:

He said when he runs near the middle of the path, he gets a wider berth from passing cyclists vs. when he hugs the right side. He'd prefer not to run near the middle, but has found it safer.

Sound familiar?

Every complaint that cyclists make about pedestrians exactly echoes one that motorists make about cyclists, and vice versa.

I think Koffee has the right idea in posting speed limits, and encouraging people who want to go faster to hit the streets. I find that most streets are more pleasant for cycling than most paths. Most paths were not really designed for the kinds of speeds that cyclists go, they're really just sidewalks with a stripe down the middle. Of course, this will be a hard sell, as paths were pitched as a way of getting cyclists off the road.

How's this for a slogan: Real Cyclists Ride Roads!

[eubi]

I agree with DC cyclist on sticking to the roads. It's a lot faster in my case.

I resent it when the racers on a MUT tell my kids to get out of the way! When I tell them to ride on the street they tell me where to go...

I always announce my presence when coming behind a runner or walker on a MUT. Either "On your left" or I click my brakes (I prefer the former). I have't been on a MUT since the advent of Ipods, however. Now we have a new challenge...

[Paul L.]

OK, a voice from a silent passer. I have had several near collisions when a pedestrian jumps into my way when I say on your left or make any noise. Although I very seldomly ride MUPs as roads are much more efficient at getting me where I am going. Incidentally when I do ride MUP I just slow down and ride behing people until they notice I am there (and they are always walking 2 or 3 abreast blocking both lanes of the path). Usually this takes several minutes. So I have to say that pedestrians are just as annoying as cyclists in the big picture according to my experience. Don't think we can generalize on this one.

[Keith99]

I'm in Los Angeles California, just to set the paths in question.

I've found that MUTs have far more than their share of bad cyclists. People who ride with their kids so slow that they can be passed by a fast walker and then spread out taking the entire path. Others without even the excuse of kids who are almost as slow and are riding right on the center line.

There are two different areas with bike paths where I might come into contact with runners, the beach and Balboa Park in the Sepulveda flood control basin. I do not remember any at the beach, that really means that I never had a problem with runners at the beach. To me that makes sense, the bike path at the beach is a reasonable place to run and anyone running it would likely be there for a serious workout and know what they are doing. Balboa Park is a different matter. It has a seperate running trail, but some runners insist on using the bike path. Guess what kind of runners they usually are?

But over all I will take runners over walkers any day. Runners at least keep going in a straight line. Walkers might do anything. Calling out 'on your left' is almost as apt to cause them to turn to the left as it is to cause them to move right. There is portion of the beach bike path just North of Washington Blvd. where there is a Pedestrian walkway just 15 feet from the bike path, yet many walkers take the bike path anyway. The really confusing part is that the bike path is not the shorter route, that I could understand.

All in all I only ride MUTs at off hours or when I'm more interested in scenery than a workout.

[skanking biker]

I think part of the problem here is how the trail/path was designed. I have seen a lot of paths that were touted as bike paths to the public and, as such, when they open, cyclists seem to think the path is for their exclusive use. On the other hand, I can sysmpathize with cyclists who run encounter the weekend walker/biker types. While this type of use is perfectly acceptible on a MUT, some of these people as simply toal obliviots. I've seen guys trying to fix their bike in the middle of the path. I've also encountered the out for a stroll walkers, who cant seen to comprehend that other peopel might be using the path and that it is not a good idea to walk 3 abrest in the middle w/ ipods on. My favorites are the groups of colleeg kids rollerblading 4 abrest who get suprised when a cyclist calls out and then proceed to push and shove and fall and giggle. Or the professional dog walkers w/ six miniature poodles all tangled around tehri legs taking up the entire path.

The most sucessful paths i've been on have a walking/runing lane, and 2 way bike lanes. Although even with these sometiems the runners use the bike portions.

It just goes to show u that despite 3000 yrs of engineering, you cant design something to be idiot proof.

[galen_52657]

Rules for muti-use paths and trails are usually posted at the end of the trail or at a ranger station. Every list of rules I have ever read says that cyclist must YIELD to ALL other trail users.

That being said, the problem is that people don't read the rules and/or don't follow them. Just like motorist, many cyclist adopt the 'I am faster so I get to go first' mentality.

I am sorry these jackasses ran into you. Maybe you should start carrying a large, heavy walking stick or some other form of self-defense.

[Ebbtide]

Most of the signs are for liability issues, not law, imo. If I had to dismount at every crossing and decent I would have to stop no less than 40 times in an hour on my regular multi-use trail.

Sorry a few cyclist ruined your run.

[genec]

I agree with DC cyclist on sticking to the roads. It's a lot faster in my case.

I resent it when the racers on a MUT tell my kids to get out of the way! When I tell them to ride on the street they tell me where to go...

I always announce my presence when coming behind a runner or walker on a MUT. Either "On your left" or I click my brakes (I prefer the former). I have't been on a MUT since the advent of Ipods, however. Now we have a new challenge...

I tend to agree here too. I have used a path in the past that was part MUT and later, more dedicated bike path. While it did slow me down, I found the best thing was to slow up when nearing peds and then announce myself well beyond the "on your left." I would often say "cyclist coming up" and then pass them a perhaps no more than 12MPH and say "good day," "good evening," whatever seemed appropriate. Those that did not respond in any way to my "cyclist coming up," were probably IPOD wearers. I passed them slowly and looked at them in a way to let them know I know they are there. Some just went along nose in the air, others smiled. For the most part I treated folks on the path as fellow humans... not speed bumps to be ignored or raced around.

I found that "on your left" doesn't work well. People on foot tend to turn left or just jump when they hear it. Cyclists are used to hearing it, so it works. Peds are not... they hear "left" and go left, or simply turn toward the sound.

Now I know this does not answer the runner's questions... this is basically what cyclists need to do. And as DC pointed out... there is a very strong parallel to how we wish motorists would act... just treat us as fellow humans.

As for side by side walking... it is as fun as side by side cycling... so it is just a hazard that using a path we have to be aware of.

You wanna be Lance... go find some open road.

[genec]

The most sucessful paths i've been on have a walking/runing lane, and 2 way bike lanes. Although even with these sometiems the runners use the bike portions.

It just goes to show u that despite 3000 yrs of engineering, you cant design something to be idiot proof.

So effing true!!!

[JRA]

I am a former cyclist/biathlete, but now just a runner.I am a former runner/cyclist, but now mostly a cyclist.

I have to agree that a lot of cyclists go way too fast on multi-use trails. They think they should be able to go as fast as they want and don't accept that they're going to have to slow down to almost walking pace when they encounter walkers.

Yes, cyclists can be inconsiderate. But it works both ways. Walkers and runners can be inconsiderate, too.

And saying "on your left" is ineffective a lot of times.

First there are runners wearing headphones who can't hear a darn thing. Fine. If they want a warning, they shouldn't be wearing headphones. These people generally aren't a problem.

A problem arises with those (mostly walkers) whose response to "on your left" is to move to the left and block the path. Since I refuse to pass on the right, that pretty much means I have to stop. If you want to know the biggest reason I sometimes don't give a verbal warning, it's those people. (I always try to make some sound, I'm a great brake-clicker, which I actually find to be more effective than a verbal warning). Instead of saying "on your left" and risking getting the instant full roadblock, I slow down, click the brakes and then ride very close to the left edge of the path, giving them plenty of room - no verbal warning (which half of them don't hear anyway) but plenty of room. It's not dangerous although, admittedly, it may seem more dangerous to them than it really is.

BTW, it's a bicycle path. That's why there's a bicycle logo on it and that's why there are signs with pictures of bicycles on them. I'm perfectly willing to share but why should walkers and runners be suprised that there are bicycles on a bicycle path? When it was a bridal path and I used to run on it, I wasn't surprised to find horse poop on it. If you're riding a bicycle on the street, are you surprised to have a car pass you? I'm not. And I also don't need a warning. In fact, some cyclist are annoyed when motorists honk at them. And some walkers/runner are actually startled by a polite "on your left" on a bike path.

And here's another thing. Where there's a separate walking, running path, why are there so many walkers and runners on the bike path? I don't really care. They can walk or run where they want and I wouldn't suggest that runners shouldn't be allowed on the bike path but here's an idea: if they're bothered by cyclists passing them, maybe they should run on the parallel walking/running path.

The times I've run on bike paths I've never had a problem. I run to the right and keep my eyes and ears open and I expect that there might be cyclists passing me. There's such a thing as being aware of your surroundings and runners need to do that. Nothing prevents a runner from looking back to see if anyone is gaining on them. Very rarely when I run (or cycle, for that matter) does anyone come up behind me without me knowing they're coming (I'm an old cross-country runner who always knew who was behind me and how far behind they were). Maybe runners who run on bike paths and don't know how to look over their shoulders should get rear-view mirrors.

Sure, cyclists can be inconsiderate. So can walkers or runners.

[Jaco]

I have to say that MUTs have their share of bad cyclists, but also pedestrians, be it runners or walkers. I came upon a group of three walkers spanning the entire trail...one in the middle of the left lane, one walking down the center, and one walking down the right lane. I announced my presence three times, each time getting a response from the pedestrians as they stopped, turned, stared at me, and then continued on their way. I decided since they were not going to give me even a sliver of trail for me to pass them with, I would go around them off the trail, something I again announced. As I passed them on the grass off the trail to the left, the pedestrian in the left lane took a step off the trail directly into my path. I hit his leg and fell back onto the path hitting my head and ending up in the hospital for 8 days with a fractured skull and two brain bleeds. The pedestrian was unhurt and I remember him saying that it was "no one's fault" before I went unconscious. The idea that the pedestrian or non-cyclist on the trail is always right is absoultely wrong.

[skanking biker]

On all levels, whether it be motorists, cyclists or pedestrians--its all about being aware of one's surroundings and modifying one's behavior to conform with the road/path/trail they are using. Far too many people go about life oblivious to everythign and anyone else around them---think of all those lovely idiots at the office that stand right in front fo the elevator door when it opens or the people at the supermarket who put their cart in the middle of the aisle as they take inevntory of every can of soup they might need for the next month.

[Guest]

Koffee - I believe the Mt Vernon trail has a speed limit (15 MPH??) and that is probably a good limit for that trail as it is busy, narrow and with limited site lines along some curves. The W&OD is straighter, wider, etc. and hopefully they won't impose a limit on it - in the early morning, exceeding 15 is safe and reasonable.

There is one dismount sign on the Mt Vernon at an underpass that is wise to heed, the others are good to take it slow.

Regarding runners, I had a discussion with a runner training for a 50 miler who solely trains on the W&OD. He is very happy when he gets an audible warning from a cyclist. He said when he runs near the middle of the path, he gets a wider berth from passing cyclists vs. when he hugs the right side. He'd prefer not to run near the middle, but has found it safer.

The speed limit on all trails, regardless of the time of day or the amount of people on them is 15 miles per hour. I asked to those WABA folks, and that's what they told me. Yet, I've only seen one sign (on the Mt. Vernon trail) specifying the speed limit. How are we supposed to know?

Speed demons definitely need to hit the road. I mean, if you're going as fast as auto traffic, there's no need for you to be on the path.

That guy that runs in the middle of the two lanes? He's in the WRONG. He's the typical running idiot that runs down the middle, then when you're approaching and there's traffic coming from the other direction, how am I supposed to know how to pass him. PEDESTRIANS AND SLOWER TRAFFIC ARE ON THE RIGHT. That's the way it goes, and that is what would solve a lot of the mess that's happening now on the trails. But for some reason, walkers and runners think they can weave like a bunch of drunken idiots all back and forth across the path and then get upset when cyclists come whizzing past. It's a bike path first and foremost, but it's also a pedestrian pass too. We all need to respect the rules and be consistent, as well as respect each other, and we'll be ok.

Koffee

[DCCommuter]

The speed limit on all trails, regardless of the time of day or the amount of people on them is 15 miles per hour. I asked to those WABA folks, and that's what they told me. Yet, I've only seen one sign (on the Mt. Vernon trail) specifying the speed limit. How are we supposed to know?



The Capital Crescent is 20 weekdays, 15 weekends.

[Guest]

The Capital Crescent is 20 weekdays, 15 weekends.

That's not what the WABA folks told me when they were on the trail giving away bike stuff. They said the limit is 15 miles per hour. Period.

Koffee

[JavaMan]

Renegade Cycling Nation? Where do I sign up?

[ArtM]

That's not what the WABA folks told me when they were on the trail giving away bike stuff. They said the limit is 15 miles per hour. Period.

Koffee

I don't think the WABA folks were right. Per the Capital Crescent site (http://www.cctrail.org/CCT_Safety.htm) the 20 weekdays, 15 weekends is correct.

The W&OD is run by the NVRPA, and all I could find on their site (http://www.nvrpa.org/) or the friends of the W&OD (http://www.wodfriends.org/) was to not "speed", with no specific limits set.

That being said, I won't ride the trails during high use time as it is too dangerous. And, unfortunatelly, I won't take my kids on it for many of the same reasons. I DO ride the W&OD to commute, as it is much safer than the alternatives (rt 7 or the Dulles Toll Rd).

[recursive]

I agree with some of what you've said, but I don't think all your complaints are totally reasonable:

In my many years in this area, I have as yet to see a cyclist come to a full stop at a stop sign, except when cars are actively crossing.

I can't remember I saw a car come to a full stop either.


At certain parts along the trail, the path narrows to one lane to cross under or over a bridge. Signs at both ends indicate that cyclists must dismount and walk their bikes, but none of them ever do. Heck, only a handful even slow down. Some of the macho guys in tights seems to think the trail is their own personal velodrome, whipping along at huge clips.

If I could see no one was around, I wouldn't dismount. I haven't seen anything like this though, but I could find it believable that some cyclists cross unsafely.


But my biggest complaint is the lack of warning and communication from cyclists. Only about 1 in every 10 ever says "on your left", "passing", or rings a bell or the like. If they do, it is usually just as they are passing. And unfortunately, many of those who don't are speeding along so fast that they don't see the dangerous curve and approaching runners/cyclists/etc.

If there is enough space for me to safely pass a runner, I usually don't say anything. Alerting people to my presence only seems to make some people jump in front of me. If there isn't room to pass, I slow down behind them, say "on your left", wait for their wave of panic to pass, and pass them after they settle down.

I have now been hit by cyclists while I was running three times--twice the cyclist ran up my back because they tried to pass when it was unsafe, and then swerved back. The other time the guy blew through a stop sign, which he even admitted afterwards. I don't claim that many runners follow the road rules any better, in fact many of them don't. But the difference is that runners are normally only going 5-10mph while cyclists are going much faster, have shorter reaction times, and are riding a piece of machinery to boot.

Clearly these cyclists were not acting in a safe manner. When I ride on paths, I slow down if it's not safe to pass until the passing lane is clear. I try to avoid paths, since they can't really support the style of riding I like to do. i.e. fast. (well, faster than 13mph anyway)

In summary, there are definitely a lot of cyclists out there acting like jack*sses, but I don't think all the behaviors you mentioned qualify.

[sbhikes]

The "on your left" thing just doesn't work. The bell works. Everybody knows what a bell means. I live in a tourist town and people from other countries understand the bell.

That doesn't mean they will get out of the way. They might not. And why should they? You don't have to cede right of way if you don't want to just because some damn fool is ringing a little bell.

As a cyclist it is your responsibility to get out of everybody else's way. If people are in your way, though luck. You have to come to a screetching halt and wait until it's clear. Too bad for you. Suck it up and get on with your life.

That's just how it is on a MUP and on a hiking trail in the mountains. Get over it. If you want total freedom, find someplace else to ride, like the street where fast moving vehicles belong.

[Dchiefransom]

The "on your left" thing just doesn't work. The bell works. Everybody knows what a bell means. I live in a tourist town and people from other countries understand the bell.

That doesn't mean they will get out of the way. They might not. And why should they? You don't have to cede right of way if you don't want to just because some damn fool is ringing a little bell.

As a cyclist it is your responsibility to get out of everybody else's way. If people are in your way, though luck. You have to come to a screetching halt and wait until it's clear. Too bad for you. Suck it up and get on with your life.

That's just how it is on a MUP and on a hiking trail in the mountains. Get over it. If you want total freedom, find someplace else to ride, like the street where fast moving vehicles belong.

So, if four people are blocking the entire trail, and won't move out of the way, we should just get off the bike and walk behind them for miles, enjoying it all the way? I don't mind waiting a bit, but far too many people in this world pay NO attention to what's going on around them, and have no idea there's someone behind them. Unfortunately, we also give driver's licenses to people like this.

[randya]

Hey, these same people stand around gabbing in the supermarket, blocking the isle without a thought to the people trying to shop.

I'm with the bell. The law in Oregon says you need to give an audible warning. The bell is universal, although some cultures (like the Germans) are better trained to respond.

The road racers should also either slow down or get off the path, IMO.

[Jaco]

This pedestrian is always right and cyclist is always wrong attitude when it comes to trails is not only wrong, it does not make any sense.

First off, every trail I have ever ridden on has rules that tell pedestrians or slower users to stay to the right and yield to faster traffic. Here is the rule for pedestrians on the trail I ride on.

Pedestrians
Please stay to the right side of the trail except when otherwise designated. Watch for other trail users. Be especially alert when running. Listen for audible signals and allow faster trail users (runners and bicyclists) to pass safely.

Secondly, and as said before, giving pedestrians free reign is just plain rude. Why should the pedestrain, who is suppossed to be sharing the trail with the other users, have the ability to completely dictate by their selfish actions what the other users can do.? As said before, if a group of walkers takes up the entire trail, than are we to assume that everyone else must change what they are doing so that they can continue to take up the entire trail? These aren't "walking paths," these are "multi-use trails" and as long as they are, everyone has a say and a part in the activites that can be done on them. Sorry, but pedestrians aren't king.

Lastly, I equate the MUP to a two lane road in the country where passing is allowed. If I come upon a slower motorist, doing 20 miles under the speed limit, and the left lane is clear, I have every right to pass them. I also have every right to be pissed if I come upon two cars, each going well under the speed limit, driving side by side in the left and right lanes, blocking all traffic behind them, and being dangerous for oncoming traffic as well. There are rules and etiquette in place for both the road and trail and are there for a reason. Common sense should provail, but when not we have these rules.

There is no rule on any path I have ridden on that says the pedestrian is always right and the cyclist always wrong.

[H23]

Wow.

Relax... say "please", "hello", "nice day", "good morning/afternoon/evening", or ring your bell or whatever, people will allow you to pass.

There is no need to get pissed, its not a blockade.

[Jaco]

Wow.

Relax... say "please", "hello", "nice day", "good morning/afternoon/evening", or ring your bell or whatever, people will allow you to pass.

There is no need to get pissed, its not a blockade.

Yeah, that's exactly what I thought, until I did just what you said and ended up in the hospital because of my trust that pedestrians would allow me to pass. I wrote about it in my first post in this thread. I really wish it was that easy.

[sbhikes]

So, if four people are blocking the entire trail, and won't move out of the way, we should just get off the bike and walk behind them for miles, enjoying it all the way? I don't mind waiting a bit, but far too many people in this world pay NO attention to what's going on around them, and have no idea there's someone behind them. Unfortunately, we also give driver's licenses to people like this.
You can simply say "excuse me" and usually they will move. You can also go around by getting off the path and onto the dirt or grass. And you can pedal along behind them. I have never met a group of pedestrians who wouldn't get out of the way eventually. And if you want to get extreme, yeah, you can get off your bike and walk faster than them, pass them, and get back on. Use a little imagination.

My point is if you don't like the inconvenience then ride where there isn't any. Ride on the street. I used to get all huffy about this but life is just too short to do that. MUPs are what they are. If you aren't enjoying it, then ride in the street.

[H23]

Yeah, that's exactly what I thought, until I did just what you said and ended up in the hospital because of my trust that pedestrians would allow me to pass. I wrote about it in my first post in this thread. I really wish it was that easy.


Yes, I saw that, and I am sorry to hear about what happened. However, I am correct in assuming you were going pretty fast?

Riding in such a place is intrinsically unfair, and nothing can be done about it. We just have to accept that we have to go slow enough to make hard emergency stops and/or allow time for confused pedestrians to figure things out and move out of the way.

[Jaco]

Yes, I saw that, and I am sorry to hear about what happened. However, I am correct in assuming you were going pretty fast?

Riding in such a place is intrinsically unfair, and nothing can be done about it. We just have to accept that we have to go slow enough to make hard emergency stops and/or allow time for confused pedestrians to figure things out and move out of the way.

No, I had slowed to a crawl by the time I was behind them. I had to wobble my front wheel to maintain my balance.

Also, I think it's funny that the solution to this is "just riding on the street." I think most places make bike paths or MUP for the sole reason of being able to not have to ride or walk on the street so you don't have do deal with the traffic. If we can just ride or walk on the street, why do we have these paths in the first place? I think the proper cliche is "cutting off the nose despite the face."

[recursive]

I think the proper cliche is "cutting off the nose despite the face."

Close (http://www.explore-dictionary.com/dictionary/C/Cutting_off_the_nose_to_spite_the_face.html)

[PainTrain]

The MUT on which I commute runs through an aquatic center owned by the local univ. (Sacramento State). When the crew folks are out jogging, they will pass the yell 'Bike!' up the chain toward the front.

I have started using 'Bike!' with all peds and found it works well. I have a bell and use it also, but found its effectiveness negligible.

If I see the white earbuds of the dreaded IPod, I yell 'Bike!' loud and sharp. It seems to penetrate the acoustic fog pretty well.

[sbhikes]

Most MUPs do end up being dominated by pedestrians. But I have had the pleasure of spending time in the college area of town, and there as a pedestrian you did NOT go on the bike path unless you wanted to die. You did not cross a bike path unless you stopped and looked both ways like on a busy city street. They even installed "speed bumps for the blind" at the crossings, with a special device for blind people to carry in their backpacks. All this to alert them that they were approaching the bike path. I never rode there, I was always a pedestrian, but I thought the whole thing was great. A city dominated by bikes.

[JohnBrooking]

I've only read the first couple of posts here, so I may be way behind the conversation, but I have to complain in a similar vein: I passed a slower cyclist today (on the road shoulder, there was no path or bike lane), and it was a little annoying because he had headphones on and no mirror, so I couldn't get his attention. Reflecting back, I guess I should have yelled "On your left", maybe he would have heard that, but I did ring my bell several times, with no noticeable effect. I had to slow down behind him a bit until I could pass him safely by pulling into the road lane, and tried not to scare him, but what could I do (except yell, which I'll try to remember to do next time)?

I just thought of a new verb: Obliviate, meaning to go about your business inside your own little world, oblivious to what is going on around you. That's what he was doing. Obliviating.

[Guest]

I've only read the first couple of posts here, so I may be way behind the conversation, but I have to complain in a similar vein: I passed a slower cyclist today (on the road shoulder, there was no path or bike lane), and it was a little annoying because he had headphones on and no mirror, so I couldn't get his attention. Reflecting back, I guess I should have yelled "On your left", maybe he would have heard that, but I did ring my bell several times, with no noticeable effect. I had to slow down behind him a bit until I could pass him safely by pulling into the road lane, and tried not to scare him, but what could I do (except yell, which I'll try to remember to do next time)?

I just thought of a new verb: Obliviate, meaning to go about your business inside your own little world, oblivious to what is going on around you. That's what he was doing. Obliviating.

Pretty funny.... it's already a word. Well actually, it's kind of a word- it's made up in the Harry Potter books. They use that spell to make Muggles forget something when they've seen witchcraft performed.

Yeah. I'm a geek. I said it. So sue me! :lol:

Koffee

[cheg]

Pretty funny.... it's already a word. Well actually, it's kind of a word- it's made up in the Harry Potter books. They use that spell to make Muggles forget something when they've seen witchcraft performed.

Yeah. I'm a geek. I said it. So sue me! :lol:

Koffee
Hey Koffee, Marilyn Manson used that word in the song Last Day on Earth on Mechanical Animals. Did Rowling get it from Manson or vice versa? :eek:

[Guest]

When was Manson's song released?

Koffee

[cheg]

When was Manson's song released?

Koffee

1998. Which Potter book was it?

[galen_52657]

You can simply say "excuse me" and usually they will move. You can also go around by getting off the path and onto the dirt or grass. And you can pedal along behind them. I have never met a group of pedestrians who wouldn't get out of the way eventually. And if you want to get extreme, yeah, you can get off your bike and walk faster than them, pass them, and get back on. Use a little imagination.

My point is if you don't like the inconvenience then ride where there isn't any. Ride on the street. I used to get all huffy about this but life is just too short to do that. MUPs are what they are. If you aren't enjoying it, then ride in the street.

Diane, you hit the nail on the head. I always get a chuckle out of the posts here about 'I was riding in the park/MUP and pedestrians would not get out of my way...blah blah blah....'

Earth to cyclist: PEDESTRIANS ARE UNDER NO REQUIREMENT TO YIELD TRAIL/ROAD/SIDEWALK OR WHATEVER TO YOU.

It is up to the cyclist to slow down to pedestrian walking speed if necessary and get around people safely. If you have to stop, dismount, carry your bike on your shoulder to get around, thats what you have to do! Most parks/MUP are not the place to be training! There are little kids, moms with strollers, old people with walkers, motorized wheel chairs, none of which owes the cyclist any special consideration when attempting to pass.

[recursive]

Diane, you hit the nail on the head. I always get a chuckle out of the posts here about 'I was riding in the park/MUP and pedestrians would not get out of my way...blah blah blah....'

Earth to cyclist: PEDESTRIANS ARE UNDER NO REQUIREMENT TO YIELD TRAIL/ROAD/SIDEWALK OR WHATEVER TO YOU.

It is up to the cyclist to slow down to pedestrian walking speed if necessary and get around people safely. If you have to stop, dismount, carry your bike on your shoulder to get around, thats what you have to do! Most parks/MUP are not the place to be training! There are little kids, moms with strollers, old people with walkers, motorized wheel chairs, none of which owes the cyclist any special consideration when attempting to pass.

Legally speaking, you are probably correct. Still, if the peds are walking 4 abreast on a path with a dotted yellow line in the middle, and refuse to move after being politely asked, they are being stupendous jack*sses. (That's a technical term) Such behavior still merits frustration in my opinion, though, I prefer to avoid the whole mess by staying on the streets.

[Jaco]

Diane, you hit the nail on the head. I always get a chuckle out of the posts here about 'I was riding in the park/MUP and pedestrians would not get out of my way...blah blah blah....'

Earth to cyclist: PEDESTRIANS ARE UNDER NO REQUIREMENT TO YIELD TRAIL/ROAD/SIDEWALK OR WHATEVER TO YOU.

It is up to the cyclist to slow down to pedestrian walking speed if necessary and get around people safely. If you have to stop, dismount, carry your bike on your shoulder to get around, thats what you have to do! Most parks/MUP are not the place to be training! There are little kids, moms with strollers, old people with walkers, motorized wheel chairs, none of which owes the cyclist any special consideration when attempting to pass.

LOL. I'd love to watch you on the MUPs. First off, most trails (as I have already posted) do have rules REQUIRING that pedestrians give right away to faster traffic and to stay to the right. It is everyone's responsibility both cyclist AND pedestrian to allow safe passage and coexistance on the MUPs. I don't know why this pervasive attitude that the pedestrian is always right is to rampant in some people.

I'd also like to mention that the only path in question here are the trails. If you're riding on the sidewalk, you're an idiot and if pedestrians are walking down the road to the point that they are impeding traffic (the cyclist included) then they are breaking the law. Not to mention the fact that another poster already suggested that if we get fed up with the MUPs, we should just "ride on the road. I guess in your world that's not an option either. As said before all of the MUPs I have ridden do have rules requiring pedestrians to yield, so I really fail to see any point that you believe you might have that in all riding situations pedestrians have some devine right to do whatever they want.

[JRA]

When the crew folks are out jogging, they will pass the yell 'Bike!' up the chain toward the front.I've had a similar thing happen, except it was a high school football team. I was coming up behind them and beginning to slow down, figuring I would just have to wait. Then one of them yelled "bike" and they all got out of the way.


Earth to cyclist: PEDESTRIANS ARE UNDER NO REQUIREMENT TO YIELD TRAIL/ROAD/SIDEWALK OR WHATEVER TO YOU.Pedestrians are under no obligation except common courtesy.


As said before all of the MUPs I have ridden do have rules requiring pedestrians to yield...That's news to me. I've never seen a rule requiring pedestrians to yield. I've seen trail guidelines asking pedestrians to keep right, as a courtesy, but that's a whole lot different from requiring them to yeild. As far as I know, on a multi-use trail, all things being equal, pedestrians have the right of way.

[Jaco]

That's news to me. I've never seen a rule requiring pedestrians to yield. I've seen trail guidelines asking pedestrians to keep right, as a courtesy, but that's a whole lot different from requiring them to yeild. As far as I know, on a multi-use trail, all things being equal, pedestrians have the right of way.

I guess Columbus is different then. We have a bike patrol that monitors the path and gives warnings to both cyclists and pedestrians who don't follow the "Greenway Trail Rules and Etiquette" that are posted along the trail. I agree that it is common courtesy more than anything, but there are people, at least on the path that I ride on, who are out there to "enforce" that courtesy. I also would like to say that in situations where there is a question of the pedestrian or myself having the right of way, I will give it to the pedestrian. However, in situations where the pedestrian is impeding the flow of traffic or not following the rules setup for the trail system, I don't see why I have to do anything of the sort. My trail system states that just as I need to yield to pedestrians, they also have the obligation of allowing faster traffic to pass and to stay to the right. It's a two way street, and both parties are asked to do their part.

[galen_52657]

LOL. I'd love to watch you on the MUPs. First off, most trails (as I have already posted) do have rules REQUIRING that pedestrians give right away to faster traffic and to stay to the right. It is everyone's responsibility both cyclist AND pedestrian to allow safe passage and coexistance on the MUPs. I don't know why this pervasive attitude that the pedestrian is always right is to rampant in some people.

I'd also like to mention that the only path in question here are the trails. If you're riding on the sidewalk, you're an idiot and if pedestrians are walking down the road to the point that they are impeding traffic (the cyclist included) then they are breaking the law. Not to mention the fact that another poster already suggested that if we get fed up with the MUPs, we should just "ride on the road. I guess in your world that's not an option either. As said before all of the MUPs I have ridden do have rules requiring pedestrians to yield, so I really fail to see any point that you believe you might have that in all riding situations pedestrians have some devine right to do whatever they want.

There may be some local differences in regs. In the Loch Raven watershed (owned by Baltimore City but located in Baltimore County) cyclists must yield to all other trail users. These trails are single track and double track, mostly unimproved and steep. The Maryland Dept. of Natural Resourses owns the NCR trail (rail trail) which is level, packed gravel and heavily used, as well as all the State parks. Their website quotes NORBA rules:

http://www.dnr.state.md.us/outdoors/biking.html

I have never seen any regulations anywhere stating that peds have to yield to cyclist.

[Jaco]

Again from the Columbus Parks and Rec department:

Pedestrians
Please stay to the right side of the trail except when otherwise designated. Watch for other trail users. Be especially alert when running. Listen for audible signals and allow faster trail users (runners and bicyclists) to pass safely.

Here's my bottom line...

These are mutli-use paths made for the enjoyment of pedestrians and cyclists alike. When instead of going by a set of rules and etiquette that allows both to exist peacefully on the same trail by being aware, curteous and compromising, we decide to turn over all rights to one group, that is wrong. Allowing a pedestrian to have the ability to hinder other trail users enjoyment because of their own callous tells me something is wrong with that system. Both groups can, and it most circumstances are able to coexsist just fine together, but the same way that a pedestrian gets upset over an unthoughtful cyclist, I too have every right to get upset over a pedestrian that is unwilling to share the path designed for everyone. I think most of us would never think of making a motorist unculpable in every situation when sharing the road, and I would not do the same for a pedestrian when sharing a MUP.