Singlespeed & Fixed Gear - Ganwell spotting

I'm visiting the fam in LA and stopped by a random bike shop today. They had a beautiful Gan well pro, blue sparkly with Dura ace cranks and Suzue promax hubs, not sure what the wheels were. It had a seatpost and a saddle. Missing bars and stem and pedals. We all know these frames go for 1200 new. Just out of curiosity i asked how much he wanted for the bike and he said that he would sell it all for 1200. I know this is probably pricy to most of you but building bike can reach these numbers... if anyone is interested PM me and i can give you the shops info. If it was my size.....

for that price i think i would def. have one custom made. custom track frames are around that price, and the extra money for the components would be well worth the price for a bike that was made for you i would think. BTW, what was the size? standover?

ah. i was about to move this to the craigslist/ebay thread and you posted. It was a 53 cm... ya, 1200 is a lot but its such a beautiful frame... and its alsmot complete... all you needs is stem, bars and pedals. the rims were blue. the paint job is spakly, so amazing!

phew
its not my size. please dont tempt us with such.. its heart wrenching.. ;)

It's my size. Good thing I'm broke...

Is that the one at Budget Cycles in Eagle Rock?

You know, they'll go a lot lower if you haggle. They've had that thing forever.

Also, that bike used to have gold drops/stem. I guess someone wanted it them. It was ULTRA hot with the gold stem and bars.

for that price i think i would def. have one custom made. custom track frames are around that price, and the extra money for the components would be well worth the price for a bike that was made for you i would think. BTW, what was the size? standover?

I've never seen a custom bike for $1200 (not $1200 Canadian anyways). Most custom places charge significantly more than that from what I've seen.

$1200 isn't a bad deal, considering the frames are not cheap in the first place...and it sounds like the components on it are pretty awesome too!

So Pink....are ya gonna buy it??

go ahead and pick it up for me please, checks in tha mail !!

Is that the one at Budget Cycles in Eagle Rock?

You know, they'll go a lot lower if you haggle. They've had that thing forever.

Also, that bike used to have gold drops/stem. I guess someone wanted it them. It was ULTRA hot with the gold stem and bars.

Ya, it is Budget in Eagle Rock. He told me about the bars and stem and it really pissed me off because i totally would have snatched them if i saw em... gold NJS bars and stem? you effing kidding me?!?!?!?!?! Grrr.

I've never seen a custom bike for $1200 (not $1200 Canadian anyways). Most custom places charge significantly more than that from what I've seen.

you can get a custom marinoni for $675 ish CAD

you can get a custom marinoni for $675 ish CAD

Where? I really dig those frames.

Americna cyclery is selling the same excat frame for 1650!

http://duck.best.vwh.net/


Marionis are rad, but man these Ganwells are really nice NJS Keirin frames :eek:

Marionis are rad, but man these Ganwells are really nice NJS Keirin frames
Ya, I know. Hence the $1000 difference. Plus I already have one track bike that I don't like locking up :(

Where? I really dig those frames.

well, from marinoni. Their pista frames are done entirely custom.
check their website for a dealer near you. or if there's no dealer just contact them directly. You'll have to provide them with your geometry though.
TIG-ed Columbus Zona with an aluminum fork is $650 +shipping. TiG-ed aluminum (airplane - i think) w/ carbon fork for $750 ish.


yeah, i know, a marinoni is no gan well. No lugs, no NJS, blah blah blah.
I was merely pointing out to bikeophile that sub-$1200 custom bikes were readily available in canada.

http://duck.best.vwh.net/



stop that...

Marinoni is one of my suppliers, and you may be able to get a frame for $675..But their custom bikes go for approx. $1500 Canadian. When I was talking $1200 in my previous post I was talking custom bikes not just the frames...Sorry if I wasn't clear.

Supposedly 3rensho is the chizzang if you can get your hands on one. Obviously no longer available. One went on ebay a few months back for $1600 and change.
If it's your size, snatch it up if you've always wanted that NJS certification.
I had my eye on this one: but alas, it was just too small (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=2904&item=7140320155&rd=1)

As you're riding on Foothill just east of Lowell, heading east it'll be to your left, heading west it'll be to your right, look up at a second story window on a non descript tan building. What do you see stencilled on the glass?

As you're riding on Foothill just east of Lowell, heading east it'll be to your left, heading west it'll be to your right, look up at a second story window on a non descript tan building. What do you see stencilled on the glass?


I'm leaving for a ride right now, i'll pedal up Foothill to see what i find. Better be good!

At the American Cyclery site they also have Cinelli Olympic Track Framesets for $975 under FRAMES.

http://fixedgear.americancyclery.com/index.html

It looks like lugged steel.

I don't understand.

which part don't you understand, why a gan well pro costs more than a cinelli?

As you're riding on Foothill just east of Lowell, heading east it'll be to your left, heading west it'll be to your right, look up at a second story window on a non descript tan building. What do you see stencilled on the glass?


Is this what you're talking about? :o

I saw that address once and realized it was near my parent's home but never really went by to check it out.

Hey terror, how much longer are you gonna be in LA?

Hey terror, how much longer are you gonna be in LA?


was going to come back on Monday but it's kind of in the air. Why?

There are about 100 Gan Well Pro frames there, all sizes, rainbow of colors. There are also Nagasawas, Nittos, Anchors... Besides making the EAI cog and the Bare Knuckle, those guys are the importers of the above named frames as well as Araya (rims, wheels) Fujitoshi (double, single straps) Izumi (chains) Kashimax (double, single straps, keirin saddles, top tube protectors) MKS (chain tensioners, pedals, toe clips, double, single straps) Nitto ( frames, bars, stems, seatposts, racks, stands, bottle cages) Hatta (bb, hs) HKK (chains) Strong G (grips) Soyo (grips, cement, tires) Sugino (cranks, bb, rings) Suzue (hubs) Tanabe ( gloves, armor, gear) Yoshida ( grips)...

They're not a retail operation, so you'll have to go through your bike shop. But here in the US, nobody knows the keirin world better, nor is more connected to the keirin industry than those guys.... just a short distance from your parents.

Dolface wrote:

"which part don't you understand, why a gan well pro costs more than a cinelli?"

Yes.

I have no experience with Cinelli, except what I have read on this forum.
People seem to speak very highly of Cinelli products.
Since I perceive lugged frames as labor intensive, I would have expected a lugged Cinelli frameset to have cost more than $975.
I'd like to know where in my mind to file Cinelli in terms of quality.

But this brings up the whole family of lugged steel track frames, from Bob Jackson, to Mercian, to Cinelli, to Gan Well Pro, to Nagasawa.

How much difference does the rider feel between these framesets, which have a $3000 price spread between them?
In which cases does one pay for a name, in which cases does one pay for aesthetics and glitter, and in which cases does one pay for a refined and fast ride?

Based on my present understanding, I see a custom Mercian frameset, delivered for less than $1000, as the value point.
By value point, I mean the point where quality and price cross, and one gets the most return for his dollar.
Beyond the value point, it seems to me that a person pays more and more for smaller amounts of improvement, until the last tiny increment of improvement costs a fortune.

Regarding the Mercian frameset, Mercian tells me if I will send them my measurements, a picture of me on my present ride, and a commentary about how I would like my Mercian to handle, they will design a lugged frame, open-hearth braze it, paint it the color of my choice and outline the lugs, and ship it to me for $1000.
Bob Jackson will do pretty much the same thing for just about the same amount of money.

I'd like to put all this in perspective.
It would help to see it through other people's eyes.

There are about 100 Gan Well Pro frames there, all sizes, rainbow of colors. There are also Nagasawas, Nittos, Anchors... Besides making the EAI cog and the Bare Knuckle, those guys are the importers of the above named frames as well as Araya (rims, wheels) Fujitoshi (double, single straps) Izumi (chains) Kashimax (double, single straps, keirin saddles, top tube protectors) MKS (chain tensioners, pedals, toe clips, double, single straps) Nitto ( frames, bars, stems, seatposts, racks, stands, bottle cages) Hatta (bb, hs) HKK (chains) Strong G (grips) Soyo (grips, cement, tires) Sugino (cranks, bb, rings) Suzue (hubs) Tanabe ( gloves, armor, gear) Yoshida ( grips)...

They're not a retail operation, so you'll have to go through your bike shop. But here in the US, nobody knows the keirin world better, nor is more connected to the keirin industry than those guys.... just a short distance from your parents.


Thanks, I know :p I've got a keirin frame. Some friends recently got an EAI hook-up at their shop, so i'll be able to get some stuff wholesale. WEEEEEEEEEE!

Dolface wrote:

"which part don't you understand, why a gan well pro costs more than a cinelli?"

Yes.

I have no experience with Cinelli, except what I have read on this forum.
People seem to speak very highly of Cinelli products.
Since I perceive lugged frames as labor intensive, I would have expected a lugged Cinelli frameset to have cost more than $975.
I'd like to know where in my mind to file Cinelli in terms of quality.

But this brings up the whole family of lugged steel track frames, from Bob Jackson, to Mercian, to Cinelli, to Gan Well Pro, to Nagasawa.

How much difference does the rider feel between these framesets, which have a $3000 price spread between them?
In which cases does one pay for a name, in which cases does one pay for aesthetics and glitter, and in which cases does one pay for a refined and fast ride?

Based on my present understanding, I see a custom Mercian frameset, delivered for less than $1000, as the value point.
By value point, I mean the point where quality and price cross, and one gets the most return for his dollar.
Beyond the value point, it seems to me that a person pays more and more for smaller amounts of improvement, until the last tiny increment of improvement costs a fortune.

Regarding the Mercian frameset, Mercian tells me if I will send them my measurements, a picture of me on my present ride, and a commentary about how I would like my Mercian to handle, they will design a lugged frame, open-hearth braze it, paint it the color of my choice and outline the lugs, and ship it to me for $1000.
Bob Jackson will do pretty much the same thing for just about the same amount of money.

I'd like to put all this in perspective.
It would help to see it through other people's eyes.

The keirin bikes are made by smaller builders. Bob Jackson's used to be a lot more expensive, but the company got bigger. And if if means anything to you, Bob Jackson no longer builds frames. He died a few years ago. It all depends on who you want building your frame. Do you want a craftsman that's been doing it for years or some guy that works in a frame factory?

Taras0000 wrote:

"Do you want a craftsman that's been doing it for years or some guy that works in a frame factory?"

How does one tell the difference?
Don't the Nagasawa and Gan Well Pro artisans work in a frame factory?

Both Bob Jackson and Mercian stress that one man builds each frame, and their craftsmen free-hand braze, which means each tube gets brazed in place singly and allowed to cool before brazing a new tube; as opposed to putting all the tubes in a jig at the same time and brazing them.

http://www.merciancycles.co.uk/craft.asp

http://www.bobjacksoncycles.co.uk/factory.php

Reading the description of the fabricating process on both sites sounds and looks very much like the process Jon Kendziera shows in the construction photo-essay on his site, except Mercian open-forge brazes as opposed to torch-brazing:

http://jonnycycles.com/

Mercian, Bob Jackson and Jon Kendziera will make a custom frame to fit me and my riding style.
Mercian and Bob Jackson will do this, delivered, for about $1000.
I think Jon Kendziera costs a little more.
What would a custom Gan Well Pro or Nagasawa cost, delivered, and would I feel the difference?

I don't ask the above as a challenge.
I've never ridden a high quality lugged steel frame.
Perhaps no one on this forum has, either.
But maybe someone has, and I'd like to hear about it.

-----

From the Bob Jackson site:

"Frames can be either Jig built or Free built. Jig built is best used for mass producing low cost frames, as it is the quickest way to produce a high volume in a short space of time. When built in a jig all the tube joins are done in one go and as the tubes are heated they expand, contracting when cooling down. Because this happens at different rates & each tube is clamped in a fixed position the frame becomes stressed & out of line. Once built the frame is then substantially tracked straight (a trade term for bent back in line). As a result a great deal of the latent strength & springiness of the tubing is lost forever.

"At Bob Jackson Cycles we free build our frames for the following reasons: When building free a great deal of skill is required due to the fact that the frame is held at one place at a time, with guides allowing the tube being joined to expand along its length, whilst staying perfectly in line. Each join is then allowed to cool thoroughly so as to ensure there is no stress on the frame, hence the term “No tension building”. Each join is done separately, from mitreing, to brazing, to cleaning & polishing, resulting in a frame that requires minimal or no tracking and uses the best qualities of the tubing, giving it that magical ride quality that only comes from a top quality steel frame.

"All steel tubes deteriorate if not heated correctly by between 5 & 15% dependant on the mix of metals in the tubeset. Savings of approximately 200F in temperature can be achieved by using silver braze rather than brass, this however is not cheap, silver braze costs 6 to 7 times more than brass.

"The way the heat is applied directly affects the frame strength and its durability. Sudden or very quick changes such as when building quickly or welding creates a sudden change in the crystal structure of the metal, leading to a rapid change in strength of the tubing & increasing the need for blow holes to allow gasses to escape from the frame. Blow holes may allow gasses out but also allow water in hence all Bob Jackson frames are built without blow holes & to ensure we can honour our 5 Year Guarantee all frames are built under no time or cost constraints."

-----

Should I believe the above?
The Mercian site says just about the same thing.

Taras0000 wrote:

"Do you want a craftsman that's been doing it for years or some guy that works in a frame factory?"

How does one tell the difference?
Don't the Nagasawa and Gan Well Pro artisans work in a frame factory?

Both Bob Jackson and Mercian stress that one man builds each frame, and their craftsmen free-hand braze, which means each tube gets brazed in place singly and allowed to cool before brazing a new tube; as opposed to putting all the tubes in a jig at the same time and brazing them.

http://www.merciancycles.co.uk/craft.asp

http://www.bobjacksoncycles.co.uk/factory.php

Reading the description of the fabricating process on both sites sounds and looks very much like the process Jon Kendziera shows in the construction photo-essay on his site, except Mercian open-forge brazes as opposed to torch-brazing:

http://jonnycycles.com/

Mercian, Bob Jackson and Jon Kendziera will make a custom frame to fit me and my riding style.
Mercian and Bob Jackson will do this, delivered, for about $1000.
I think Jon Kendziera costs a little more.
What would a custom Gan Well Pro or Nagasawa cost, delivered, and would I feel the difference?

I don't ask the above as a challenge.
I've never ridden a high quality lugged steel frame.
Perhaps no one on this forum has, either.
But maybe someone has, and I'd like to hear about it.

-----

From the Bob Jackson site:

"Frames can be either Jig built or Free built. Jig built is best used for mass producing low cost frames, as it is the quickest way to produce a high volume in a short space of time. When built in a jig all the tube joins are done in one go and as the tubes are heated they expand, contracting when cooling down. Because this happens at different rates & each tube is clamped in a fixed position the frame becomes stressed & out of line. Once built the frame is then substantially tracked straight (a trade term for bent back in line). As a result a great deal of the latent strength & springiness of the tubing is lost forever.

"At Bob Jackson Cycles we free build our frames for the following reasons: When building free a great deal of skill is required due to the fact that the frame is held at one place at a time, with guides allowing the tube being joined to expand along its length, whilst staying perfectly in line. Each join is then allowed to cool thoroughly so as to ensure there is no stress on the frame, hence the term “No tension building”. Each join is done separately, from mitreing, to brazing, to cleaning & polishing, resulting in a frame that requires minimal or no tracking and uses the best qualities of the tubing, giving it that magical ride quality that only comes from a top quality steel frame.

"All steel tubes deteriorate if not heated correctly by between 5 & 15% dependant on the mix of metals in the tubeset. Savings of approximately 200F in temperature can be achieved by using silver braze rather than brass, this however is not cheap, silver braze costs 6 to 7 times more than brass.

"The way the heat is applied directly affects the frame strength and its durability. Sudden or very quick changes such as when building quickly or welding creates a sudden change in the crystal structure of the metal, leading to a rapid change in strength of the tubing & increasing the need for blow holes to allow gasses to escape from the frame. Blow holes may allow gasses out but also allow water in hence all Bob Jackson frames are built without blow holes & to ensure we can honour our 5 Year Guarantee all frames are built under no time or cost constraints."

-----

Should I believe the above?
The Mercian site says just about the same thing.

The average rider probably won't be able to tell the difference. To tell you the truth, there probably isn;t that much difference in the rides either. The same can also be said of a custom compared to an off the peg frame. Unless you have really weird dimensions, there really isn't much difference in fit. I've never seen or ridden a Mercian, so I can't comment on them. I have seen the old Jackson's and Nagasawa's and they are jewels. Mercian states that each frame is built by only one person. That can be fine and dandy, but do you know who the builder is? Have you seen their previous work? Do they have some sort of pedigree? I could give any person off the street the tools and the operating room, and make sure that they are the only person performing your brain surgery, but will you allow that? I would only get a custom frame built by someone who's work I have seen, and have talked to personally about what I want in my bike.

You may be paying for a name to a certain degree with some builders, but there are two reasons for that. Supply and demand (nothing wrong with that), and quality assurance (nothing wrong with that either). Just my thoughts.